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Old Dec 08, 2012, 09:08 PM
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Help Cass or leadfeather

This is my second " no moving surface controls plane that flies. No problem on vertical takeoff or forward flight, problem is on landing. Due to no power on flare, keep ripping off or creaming motors/servos.

In the 4th picture, you will see that the motors are mounted to the servo. The two together act together and are run as elevons. Rudder uses a GWS mixer to give you differential thrust of motors. Dimensions are 24" wide and 19" deep. Took me over a month to get where I am. This animal is super sensitive to fly and requires a large movement of the servos for a little action.

Looking for:

1) Want vertical takeoff(remember no surface controls), I do it fairly fast.
2) Plane in forward flight varies in angle of 30-50 degrees from horizontal to move lateral depending on the wind speed.
3) I would like to land by doing a transition from forward flight into a low hover and then descend for landing.

Can a Wii+arduino board help me accomplish the mission? Need both your thoughts or other experts to advise me or do I shelve it until new technology comes along?
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Old Dec 09, 2012, 08:32 AM
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I have more questions than answers for you, here goes.

Yes, the Wii + Arduino will help.

Questions:

Why no moving control surfaces? Elevons would be more effective, less prone to breaking and require smaller servos than tilting the motors.

Why a tail sitter? There are lots of simple tail sitter that can VTOL without electronic flight stabilization. Tail sitters are also tricky to take off and land if there is any wind...they blow over.

Why the twin motors? I'm not saying it's bad just wondering why not one or three or four motors?

Good luck with your project! Figuring these VTOLs out is a lot of work, but very rewarding once you get there.

Simple tail sitter in the video below for those who haven't seen one of these.

RC Deltoid Model Indoors (3 min 18 sec)
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Old Dec 09, 2012, 10:11 AM
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VTOL is hard enough with all the control surfaces there !!!! Why not use them ???
Sorry ,,I doubt that you will ever transition to a good landing without them .
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Old Dec 09, 2012, 12:40 PM
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What RC airplane do you know of that has no surface controls? This is total different that any other flying vehicle. I consider this "outside the box", it flies, but I want to improve it. Same as flying the "Cricket" heli in 1983 without a gyro to what we can do now. Would you change it?

Reason it is a tail sitter is I want to takeoff and land with touching the vehicle. Right now I have solved liftoff in 2 ways. If wind, face it parallel to the airflow on ground. Then figured out the angle of elevons down needed, then add power(I have a reduced power curve in transmitter) and away I go. I built and fly a STOL transport and did the same.

If I add any other motors, it is a plain jane copter setup.
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Old Dec 09, 2012, 12:41 PM
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Skate

Aero

Look here for many details regarding the Skate UAS. > http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1749711

The design you have copied (Skate) has the servo/motor mounts attached with magnets that release the assemble(s) on landing.

True sustained vertical hover flight and landing is impossible without using control vanes/surfaces on this design, plus you need to add rudder control too.

Vertical takeoff and horizontal land has many benefits...! I would suggest you simply add landing gear, since this is not a military spy-plane setup.

For a very simple design that will hover well, use the pizza box flyer format using a single motor and tail dragger landing gear, make sure you have equal vertical tail surfaces on top and on the craft (within the slip-stream of the prop). Use elevon and rudder control vanes/surfaces

Make certain you balance the craft in the vertical plain, by hang the craft from the propeller, this is very important...! If you want details on how to make a simple device for this task let me know and I'll post it here.

Use a $20 KK2 board for excellent stability control. Use only the P and I terms, no D term .

Use OpenAero firmware. Look here>>> http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1708175

Kelly
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Old Dec 09, 2012, 12:50 PM
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Aero,

If you use the PBF design you will need to add slots in the correct location for airflow delivery over the elevons to allow for roll control at high alpha, the rudder will control roll at high alpha due to the vortex coupling, but this is very nonlinear. Or you can add Junkers styles elevons, this will work the best.

Ask if you want the details.

Kelly
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Old Dec 09, 2012, 01:19 PM
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EYESPY (8 min 49 sec)


Here is a long video of learning how to fly once I resolved the CG. At the end, you are forced to glide and shut off motors to land. Had mix in tx, so flipped a switch and servos went up to end. Still caused damage.
Corocopter, again, do not want to add surface controls or vanes since there is active movement for ailerons,elevator and rudder. That is the fun of it.

LeadFeather--could you sketch out the electronic package I would need to start this endeavor. Oh, by the way, I built and fly TurtleOne that I want to try this package in first, gaining experience for high alpha.(looking for a vertical hover). Built and fly your Apache which is always a crowd pleaser.
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Old Dec 09, 2012, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aero1960 View Post
What RC airplane do you know of that has no surface controls? This is total different that any other flying vehicle. I consider this "outside the box", it flies, but I want to improve it. Same as flying the "Cricket" heli in 1983 without a gyro to what we can do now. Would you change it?

Reason it is a tail sitter is I want to takeoff and land with touching the vehicle. Right now I have solved liftoff in 2 ways. If wind, face it parallel to the airflow on ground. Then figured out the angle of elevons down needed, then add power(I have a reduced power curve in transmitter) and away I go. I built and fly a STOL transport and did the same.

If I add any other motors, it is a plain jane copter setup.

What RC airplane do you know of that has no surface controls?


This little jump jet has no control surfaces, hovers and transitions to forward flight on the wing...tolerates some wind no problem.

Jump Jet, no control surfaces, R&D test #2 (2 min 23 sec)
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Old Dec 09, 2012, 01:53 PM
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"LeadFeather--could you sketch out the electronic package I would need to start this endeavor. Oh, by the way, I built and fly TurtleOne that I want to try this package in first, gaining experience for high alpha.(looking for a vertical hover). Built and fly your Apache which is always a crowd pleaser. "

The best way that I know of to incorporate flight stabilization is the multiwii. The programming is set up for typical multicopters, but with a little programming work you can make it work for just about any craft.

The ready made flight control boards (fcb's) are pretty cheap now so it is not worth building from scratch using the guts from a Wii motion plus any more... in my opinion.

You'll need:

FCB $17.40
FTDI interface ; allows you to connect the board to your computer $8.20
The multiwii program that you will modify and upload to your FCB
The GUI (graphic user interface) program which allows you to adjust the tuning paramaters to the board.

Going this method allows you to have multi modes for your craft so that for example you can have a hover mode and a forward flight mode where the controls are always as expected yaw is always yaw, roll is always roll.

Another approach is to go with a few of gyros, but for your configuration it will get complicated in a hurry.

Still another approach is to find stabilized rotors. This way you may not require any electronic flight stabilization. F&T had some success with this with his Twins Cargo plane VTOL. Also Air Hogs had a pretty good VTOL toy that used stabilized rotors called the Osprey Full Tilt. This osprey also has no moving control surfaces. The difficulty with this approach is finding the correct stabilized rotors which are preferably counter rotating.
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Old Dec 09, 2012, 03:30 PM
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Tower Hobbies use to sell a twin plane that had no control surfaces ,, and used only the motor vectoring to fly .

Rotormast's V-22 has no airplane control surfaces and yet it does transition in and out of heli mode to airplane mode and back very good ... But then you will have to add cyclic control to your props
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Old Dec 09, 2012, 05:20 PM
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aero1960, your design kinda resembles this successful rc vtol wing:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...ying+wing+vtol
Seems to fly quite well with control surfaces. Probably fly even easier with a FCB. From what I remember, using this concept, the wing has to be quite large for stability, but maybe not so nowadays with a FCB. Anyway my 2 cents.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 12:51 PM
An itch?. Scratch build.
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As it's basically a flying wing, should there be some reflex to that wing section if you want it to fly, 'glide', with the motors off ?.
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