SMALL - espritmodel.com SMALL - Telemetry SMALL - Radio
Reply
Thread Tools
This thread is privately moderated by billpa, who may elect to delete unwanted replies.
Old Oct 10, 2012, 04:52 PM
Registered User
Prof100's Avatar
Canton, Michigan USA
Joined Jul 2007
16,424 Posts
Taking off with heading hold will get the plane to rotate (usually) but if you leave the sticks at neutral when doing so once it rotates it will apply control surface movements to get back to the heading that was last remembered by the Guardian. I take off in 2D, 3D and off. You just have to remember if you have heading hold on you have to change the heading with the sticks. 2D is harder to do when climbing out because it will level out every time you center the sticks.
Prof100 is online now Find More Posts by Prof100
RCG Plus Member
Latest blog entry: A123 2S 2500 mah wiring diagram
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Oct 10, 2012, 05:24 PM
Rick
United States, CA, Santa Clara
Joined Mar 2011
2,038 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedorme View Post
Have been flying my PZ foam T-28 almost entirely in 3D mode with great results, particularly if there is much wind. Recently I started turning on 3D for takeoffs & have noticed that as the plane starts to rotate on the ground, the nose often will abruptly dip down even past level unless I catch it before it starts. A few takeoffs have resulted in the nose gear almost hitting the ground before it starts its climbout.

Would a solution for this be to feed in a bit more up elevator even before it is at takeoff speed? I've been taking off with some nose down on the initial roll out to ensure nose wheel steering but trying to judge when to come off of it to let the plane rotate, which without the Guardian it pretty much does on its own when its ready to fly. Any ideas most welcome. Thanks,

Jed
I've had great success with my Formosa taking of in 3D heading hold. I set 3D mode, point the plane where I want it to go, stir the stick to lock it in, put the plane on the ground. Then just max the throttle and watch while Guardian executes a beautiful takeoff literally hands-off, auto-correcting any turbulance! This wouldn't work in 2D mode as Guardian would keep the plane level and probably stuck to the ground depending on the level setting.
choochoo22 is online now Find More Posts by choochoo22
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 10, 2012, 06:06 PM
Registered User
Prof100's Avatar
Canton, Michigan USA
Joined Jul 2007
16,424 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by choochoo22 View Post
You're right. Last night I was catching up on a weeks worth of posts and missed that, sorry.

If it was me, I'd rather have the available channel for mode than gain. Once a working gain is established, it shouldn't need much tweaking.
I figured that was the case.
Prof100 is online now Find More Posts by Prof100
RCG Plus Member
Last edited by Prof100; Oct 10, 2012 at 08:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 10, 2012, 08:16 PM
Registered User
Galand's Avatar
Long Island, NY
Joined May 2010
1,545 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by choochoo22 View Post
You're right. Last night I was catching up on a weeks worth of posts and missed that, sorry.

If it was me, I'd rather have the available channel for mode than gain. Once a working gain is established, it shouldn't need much tweaking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof100 View Post
I fugured that was the case.
When flying on my own, I would agree that it would be more fun to use the free channel for MOD.
But when training you will fly 2D anyway and the GAIN channel pot lets you "challenge" the student progressively. Therefore I wanted to assign the free channel to GAIN but then I lose the neat switch-flicking trim reset function.
BTW, I found that setting the initial trim calibration with the PC was quite challenging (in the end I used a spirit level) to achieve no control surface movement between Guardian ON and OFF.
Galand is online now Find More Posts by Galand
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 10, 2012, 09:32 PM
Rick
United States, CA, Santa Clara
Joined Mar 2011
2,038 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galand View Post
When flying on my own, I would agree that it would be more fun to use the free channel for MOD.
But when training you will fly 2D anyway and the GAIN channel pot lets you "challenge" the student progressively. Therefore I wanted to assign the free channel to GAIN but then I lose the neat switch-flicking trim reset function.
BTW, I found that setting the initial trim calibration with the PC was quite challenging (in the end I used a spirit level) to achieve no control surface movement between Guardian ON and OFF.
Thinking about it, there are some very good reasons to set it up either way depending on the plane, transmitter, pilot, and objective.
choochoo22 is online now Find More Posts by choochoo22
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 11, 2012, 04:26 PM
Registered User
Joined Jul 2009
303 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricoalonso View Post
When you say 3D, which Submode (Heading Hold or Direct Rate) are you using or, had you tried both with the same result?
I should have clarified that I'm using Heading Hold as I'm using the T-28 as a test bed before I install a second Guardian & 2 more on order in some tail draggers that are a bit squirrelly on takeoffs. The HH works quite well to steer a straight line; it is just the problem of wanting to flatten out the rotation that is giving me the problem.

But for the T-28, taking off with it turned off is certainly possible. For a tail dragger, I haven't really thought out the issue of rotation, as maybe once the tail is up & the Guardian is happy with the level flight position, it will just fly off with some added up elevator. Has that been the experience of those using 3D HH when taking off a tail dragger with the Guardian on?

Jed
jedorme is offline Find More Posts by jedorme
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 11, 2012, 09:34 PM
Rick
United States, CA, Santa Clara
Joined Mar 2011
2,038 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedorme View Post
For a tail dragger, I haven't really thought out the issue of rotation, as maybe once the tail is up & the Guardian is happy with the level flight position, it will just fly off with some added up elevator. Has that been the experience of those using 3D HH when taking off a tail dragger with the Guardian on?

Jed
With my Formosa taking off in 3D HH it pretty much drags the tail until lift-off. (I pre-set it to climb out attitude.) Not very scale, but the fastest way off for a plane with plenty of power. Taking a small plane off rough gravel, keeping it on the ground for a long roll with the tail up gaining speed isn't going to look prettier or work better, it just beats the plane up and isn't necessary.

I can see, however, where someone with a larger, more scale plane taking off asphalt may want a longer roll with the tail up for aesthetic reasons or if the plane needs to gain speed. In that case it seems like 2D HH would work better if you can get the level attitude set right, then a gentle pull on the stick for lift-off.
choochoo22 is online now Find More Posts by choochoo22
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 11, 2012, 09:58 PM
Registered User
ricoalonso's Avatar
USA, KS, Derby
Joined Mar 2003
1,474 Posts
When I tested the Guardian in my 41-inch Edge 540 (tail dragger) I always take off in 3D Direct Rate and I let it take off with a long roll along the runway and did not notice any issue.
ricoalonso is online now Find More Posts by ricoalonso
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 11, 2012, 11:53 PM
But often down to earth
Floater73's Avatar
Oklahoma, USA
Joined Sep 2010
736 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedorme View Post
I should have clarified that I'm using Heading Hold as I'm using the T-28 as a test bed before I install a second Guardian & 2 more on order in some tail draggers that are a bit squirrelly on takeoffs. The HH works quite well to steer a straight line; it is just the problem of wanting to flatten out the rotation that is giving me the problem.
Jed
jedorme,

To help with the take-off you can program some up elevator into a mix on a switch. This will tell the Guardian to maintain a climb angle for take-off. The mix can also be used in flight to either climb or to maintain altitude when the throttle is reduced. Test it at altitude to check how much up elevator to program into the mix. When the amount is correct the plane will lift off by itself and look very scale.

I program three switches where each adds about 5% up elevator. Then I can decide how much I want by using one or more switches.

Just before the take-off run move the aileron/elevator stick to set the Guardian heading hold. That will help keep the take-off straight. You can still use the rudder to keep it straight.

Steve
Floater73 is offline Find More Posts by Floater73
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 12, 2012, 03:43 AM
Rick
United States, CA, Santa Clara
Joined Mar 2011
2,038 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floater73 View Post
To help with the take-off you can program some up elevator into a mix on a switch. This will tell the Guardian to maintain a climb angle for take-off.
This is mode dependent. In 3D Direct, the up elevator will be telling the Guardian to maintain a mild rate of loop! It will feed in as much elevator as it needs to achieve that rate, most likely resulting in a stall if you don't correct it first.
choochoo22 is online now Find More Posts by choochoo22
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 12, 2012, 07:36 AM
Southern Pride
everydayflyer's Avatar
Haralson County GA. USA
Joined Oct 2004
34,734 Posts
Quote:
When flying on my own, I would agree that it would be more fun to use the free channel for MOD.
But when training you will fly 2D anyway and the GAIN channel pot lets you "challenge" the student progressively. Therefore I wanted to assign the free channel to GAIN but then I lose the neat switch-flicking trim reset function.
Someone want to try an experiment , I would but I am to tied up in other projects at the moment.

Normaly Rudder is or can be set to full servo range as in full CW ,full CCW and ofcourse cetered. These are the same outputs required to reset Trims on Guardian 2D/3D so...........

Seems one could disconnect Rudder signal from Guardian to receiver and plug Guardian Mod. lead into Receiver make Trim Reset and then switch leads back. Yes it is a pain bvut should work I believe.

It seems one could also use a spare receiver and receiver battery and connect this receiver to the Guardian 2D/3D Mode channel and along the same lines a servo tester should work also.

Perhaps Bill or John will comment on these ideas.


Charles
everydayflyer is online now Find More Posts by everydayflyer
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 12, 2012, 09:21 AM
Electric baptism 1975
DavidN's Avatar
Vernon, BC, Canada
Joined Dec 2000
2,884 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
Someone want to try an experiment , I would but I am to tied up in other projects at the moment.

Normaly Rudder is or can be set to full servo range as in full CW ,full CCW and ofcourse cetered. These are the same outputs required to reset Trims on Guardian 2D/3D so...........

Seems one could disconnect Rudder signal from Guardian to receiver and plug Guardian Mod. lead into Receiver make Trim Reset and then switch leads back. Yes it is a pain bvut should work I believe.

Charles
How about a Y connector and a SWITCH on the arm going to Guardian mode channel. No fumbling with connectors just the switch. You would need to be anal about checking switch is in the correct position before flight.
DavidN is offline Find More Posts by DavidN
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 12, 2012, 11:12 AM
Registered User
Joined Jul 2009
303 Posts
Steve & choochoo22 - When taking off in 3D Heading Hold mode, I'm a bit confused by your reference to "stirring the sticks" or moving the "aileron/elevator control" just before take off to set it. Can you clarify this? Thanks,

Jed
jedorme is offline Find More Posts by jedorme
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 12, 2012, 02:14 PM
Registered User
Prof100's Avatar
Canton, Michigan USA
Joined Jul 2007
16,424 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedorme View Post
Steve & choochoo22 - When taking off in 3D Heading Hold mode, I'm a bit confused by your reference to "stirring the sticks" or moving the "aileron/elevator control" just before take off to set it. Can you clarify this? Thanks,

Jed
Every time you "stir the sticks" the heading is reset with heading hold turned on.

Also, when in heading hold turn off the Guardian when retrieving your plane or stir the sticks if you change heading .
Prof100 is online now Find More Posts by Prof100
RCG Plus Member
Latest blog entry: A123 2S 2500 mah wiring diagram
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 12, 2012, 03:15 PM
Rick
United States, CA, Santa Clara
Joined Mar 2011
2,038 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedorme View Post
Steve & choochoo22 - When taking off in 3D Heading Hold mode, I'm a bit confused by your reference to "stirring the sticks" or moving the "aileron/elevator control" just before take off to set it. Can you clarify this? Thanks,

Jed
What Prof said.

To elaborate; You are getting ready to fly. You have the plane in your left hand and the tx in your right hand, preferably on a neck strap. As part of your pre-flight you turn on 3D mode. As you walk to your launch point, Guardian is moving the surfaces trying to maintain the attitude that was locked in when you turned 3D on. This is most likely not a useful attitude as you were carrying the plane, possibly straight up, down, or sideways.

When you are at your launch point, you are ready to set the plane down for a ROG or toss the plane for a hand launch. As a final pre-flight step, you point the plane in the direction and attitude you want for climb out and "stir the stick". Any movement of the aileron or elevator will reset the locked-in attitude in G to the current position. Now you are ready for takeoff. On the ground or by hand, all you need do is apply throttle and G will fly the plane where you had it pointed.

You could just wait until you have the plane in climb-out attitude before activating 3D. I find it more convenient, however, to set all my switches ahead of time. Since I'm holding the plane in my left hand, it's easier to reach the right stick with my right hand than the mode switch on the left side of the tx.

In any case your pre-flight after setting the climb-out attitude should include wiggling the plane around and observing that G is moving your surfaces properly. You don't want to hit full throttle for launch and discover, for instance, that your gain was all the way down and G isn't flying the plane

As Prof suggested, it's generally not good to carry the plane around much before or after flight with G active. It will be trying to "fly" the plane and will be moving the surfaces, probably to maximum. It could overdrive a servo doing this. I haven't found this to be a problem on any of my planes so I have become somewhat careless on this point. If you are careful to verify the limits when installing G and, if necessary, set the G travel limits with a PC (not the tx travel limits) it should never be a problem.

Hope this helped clarify things.
choochoo22 is online now Find More Posts by choochoo22
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion Can I control Guardian stabilizer with DX6i? njwxyz Eagle Tree Systems 9 Jun 02, 2014 12:17 PM
Discussion GPS 2D Plots incomplete, 3D OK jackerbes Eagle Tree Systems 1 Oct 23, 2011 09:42 PM
Discussion Premier 1st generation, Gen 2 Vector unit, 2D or 3D motor unit lanternfly RC Kites 0 Oct 05, 2011 09:42 PM
Data 2d or 3d wing ribs? Marty7n Beginner Training Area (Aircraft-Electric) 56 Sep 22, 2011 04:06 PM
Discussion 3View to 3D to 2d techasist CAD/CAM 0 Mar 27, 2011 12:19 AM