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Old Mar 30, 2012, 10:56 PM
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United States, UT, Garden City
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Tower pro 2410-12t on caffeine.

First of all, I just want to start with a disclaimer! I'm prone to doing dumb things once in a while, even with good advise not to So here is my question that I know I shouldnt ask. If I were to take one of my two dozen TP2410-12T motors and run it on 4-6 cells, with a down sized prop of course, would I be doing something that would be dangerous to myself or bystanders, or should I be OK as long as I can keep the current down?

I think that I am getting the hang of how these brushless motors work and have read somewhere that the voltage doesn't matter as much as long as the current is kept to the manufacturers specs. This motor is a 1000kv motor and I thought that I may be able to get better speed out of it if I just increased voltage and reduced prop size. However, getting the hang of them or not, I still feel like I'm learning a foreign language when it comes to figureing out amps, watts, kv, prop size, current, etc........

So if some of you guys could give me some good substantiated advice as to whether I can do this or not, I would truly appreciate it.

Thanks

Mike
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 08:48 AM
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Chattanooga, Tennessee, United States
Joined May 2003
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You won't hurt anyone... but those are pretty lousy motors to start with... I suppose, at 64g, you might expect to be able to put 200W through one...of course amp draw is the key.

I wouldn't go much above 15A since the windings are such small gauge..... your efficiency might be in the 40% range!
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 02:12 PM
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
Joined May 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmwahl View Post
First of all, I just want to start with a disclaimer! I'm prone to doing dumb things once in a while, even with good advise not to So here is my question that I know I shouldnt ask. If I were to take one of my two dozen TP2410-12T motors and run it on 4-6 cells, with a down sized prop of course, would I be doing something that would be dangerous to myself or bystanders, or should I be OK as long as I can keep the current down?

I think that I am getting the hang of how these brushless motors work and have read somewhere that the voltage doesn't matter as much as long as the current is kept to the manufacturers specs. This motor is a 1000kv motor and I thought that I may be able to get better speed out of it if I just increased voltage and reduced prop size. However, getting the hang of them or not, I still feel like I'm learning a foreign language when it comes to figureing out amps, watts, kv, prop size, current, etc........

So if some of you guys could give me some good substantiated advice as to whether I can do this or not, I would truly appreciate it.

Thanks

Mike
That is the motor that got me started in rewinding motors. Stock it is wound 12 turns, DLRK-Delta, with 3 strands 0,24mm (31 AWG).

If you wanted to get more RPM and if it will work for you with a smaller prop, you could rewind it to have a higher Kv too. And in the course of doing that you would be able to use a single strand of larger wire (a higher Kv means fewer turns means more room for larger wire) and that would improve the current handling capacity of the motor.

The attached image shows several of the possible methods for rewinding the 2410-12 (LRK, Half Parallel DLRK, and DLRK). You could pick a prop and battery and rewind the motor to get the most out of it for that prop/battery combo.

No one should ever throw a motor away just because it is broken! Even if it was cheap and broken too! If you are not interested in rewinding motors, donate the bad motors to a rewinding queer. If you pick the right person, they might rewind one of them to your needs and send it back to you.

You can read the thread here that tells how I more than doubled the output from a 2410-12 by rewinding it. And that was a useful, non-threatening to the motor, power increase too.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1382108

Jack
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Last edited by jackerbes; Mar 31, 2012 at 03:57 PM. Reason: Add the stuff I forgot...
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 03:35 PM
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United States, UT, Garden City
Joined Aug 2011
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Originally Posted by jackerbes View Post
That is the motor that got me started in rewinding motors. Stock it is wound 12 turns, DLRK-Delta, with 3 strands 0,24mm (31 AWG).

If you wanted to get more RPM and if it will work for you with a smaller prop, you could rewind it to have a higher Kv too. And in the course of doing that you would be able to use a single strand of larger wire (a higher Kv means fewer turns means more room for larger wire) and that would improve the current handling capacity of the motor.

The attached image shows several of the possible methods for rewinding the 2410-12 (LRK, Half Parallel DLRK, and DLRK). You could pick a prop and battery and rewind the motor to get the most out of it for that prop/battery combo.

No one should ever throw a motor away just because it is broken! Even if it was cheap and broken too! If you are not interested in rewinding motors, donate the bad motors to a rewinding queer. If you pick the right person, they might rewind one of them to your needs and send it back to you.

You can read the thread here that tells how I more than doubled the output from a 2410-12 by rewinding it. And that was a useful, non-threatening to the motor, power increase too.

Jack
Hey Jack, thanks for the response! Heck ya I am interested in rewinding a motor if it gets me better performance! I won't even pretend to act like I know anything about this stuff yet, but I am fully capable of learning how.

I didn't see any attachments with your post so you might want to try again, but if there is a link or something that you can put up then I would appreciate that too.

Thanks

Mike
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 03:56 PM
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
Joined May 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmwahl View Post
Hey Jack, thanks for the response! Heck ya I am interested in rewinding a motor if it gets me better performance! I won't even pretend to act like I know anything about this stuff yet, but I am fully capable of learning how.

I didn't see any attachments with your post so you might want to try again, but if there is a link or something that you can put up then I would appreciate that too.

Thanks

Mike
Old age is hell but surely I didn't forget to include the attachment and a link too!

Check again, you must have missed them.

Jack
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 06:11 PM
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United States, UT, Garden City
Joined Aug 2011
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Originally Posted by jackerbes View Post
Old age is hell but surely I didn't forget to include the attachment and a link too!

Check again, you must have missed them.

Jack
Yup, I must be on dope! I can see it now

Just what kind of performance could I expect from the good ol' 2410-12 if I rewind it? I am wanting to put it on o e of my shumate park jets. I already have a coue of them on an F-15 and t-38, but they are just not fast enough for my taste. There doesn't seem to be much if a spread between stall and full throttle with the GWS 9050 prop. Loads of thrust though! I would like to be able to put an APC 6.5x5 on it with an 1800-2200 mAh pack in 3-4 cells. Can I achieve this with a rewound motor?

I might add also, that I have a coue of packages of enamel coated magnet wire from radio shack that I never used for one of my kids science fair experiment/projects. Each package has 1- roll of gold colored 22 gauge 40'

1 roll of green colored 26 gauge. 75'

1 roll of red colored 30 gauge 200'

Is this the right kind of wire and size range?
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 07:24 PM
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
Joined May 2008
17,215 Posts
Here is how I work the details on the wind for a prop out. I look at the prop database at the link below to see what peak RPM looks about right. I don't see an APC 6.5 x 5 listed so I'll use the 6 x 5

APC E 6x5 - http://www.flybrushless.com/prop/view/313

That looks like I want to be able to get around 14,000 RPM out of it on a charged and rested battery. If you scroll down and look at the motors that got that kind of RPM out of the prop, most of them were up around 90 grams in weight and drawing 20A from a 200W or so input. That makes it look like the lighter 2410-12 might not be able to come up with the power (and Dr Kiwi suggested the same thing in his post).

But you don't know for sure until you try it so I'd give it a try just to see what I get.

To get 14,000 RPM from the motor under that load it would have to have a no load RPM of about 1/3rd more than that. So that would mean a no load RPM of about 18,620 RPM. We need that number to choose the target Kv for the rewind.

And we also need to decide the battery voltage. If we want to try it on 4S we would have a charged and rested voltage of about 16.4V. If the voltage dropped to 16V during the no load test we would need a Kv of 1164 (18,620 RPM / 16V = 1164) in order to get the no load RPM we wanted.

If you wanted to try it on 3S you would change the 16V to 12V and do the math again (18,620 / 12V = 1552) and the Kv needed would be 1552.

Looking at the spreadsheet, for the 4S 1164 Kv there are three winds you can consider:

11 turns LRK Star = 1200
12 turns 2GpParallel Star = 1155
6 turns DLRK Star = 1155

And for the 3S 1552 Kv there are three winds you can consider:

9 turns LRK Star = 1466
9 turns 2GpParallel Star = 1540
8 turns DLRK Delta = 1500

There are some other winds that are in the 1164 to 1552 Kv range too but I am ruling those out for now because of the higher turn counts. A higher turn count means smaller wire and smaller wire means less current so I'll try the lower turn counts first.

Then it is time to get my collection of scrap lengths different sizes of wire out and start figuring out which of those can actually be wound and the wire size that will both fit and give a nice fill with copper.

The primary considerations and factors are:

LRK - Only six of the 12 arms are wound, that eliminates the issues with winds on adjacent arms crowding each other, so you can get bigger wire and/or more turns on.

Half Parallel DLRK and DLRK - All 12 arms are wound so, as the turns accumulate, it gets crowded in "V" between the arms. But with crowding and packing the turns carefully you try to figure it out. Some time you have to "thread" the last turn or two on because of the crowding.

On the potential winds with lower turn counts you can use larger wire of course. And larger wire handles more current. But larger wire also is harder to get fitted snugly up against the stator arms. So at some where around 21 AWG or so and much larger than that you may consider using a parallel pair of two smaller strands.

My previous experience with this motor was more for use with larger props and for motors with lower Kv's. So this is kind of new ground for me here. But I think there is some potential for you to be able to get a good runner at these higher Kv's. Not sure it would be equal to the 90 gram motors seen in the prop testing there at flybrushless.com. But I'd give it a try I think.

Jack
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