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Old Mar 26, 2012, 07:14 PM
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DLG Design. Open forum on ideas and speculations

What would the ultimate design look like. I think that a lot of what is being made is due to construction constraints but if we had better materials could we build a better model?

I have been working with Nomex Honeycomb and have built myself a router duplicator so I should be able to carve out some cores. This material in the 1.8 pound density is about 100 PSI and the 3 pound is 300 psi. This is much stronger than the foam being used and if I can contour it to the desired shape would the design be any different than what is currently being produced?

I am thinking of some very thin wings, but have no understanding of all the design software - just looking at tracing my shoe and getting the right curves.

Is there any room for improvement or are we at the edge of technology?
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Old Mar 27, 2012, 02:59 AM
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I'm no expert but you would be able to go thinner and lighter.
My biggest gripe is cost and time.
I don't want to spend hours machining, but with a stronger tougher wing, less replacement is needed.

When concidering if we are on the edge of technology: my answer is no. we haven't mastered aerodynamics and thats just one area.

If you consider Nano-fibre and its applications in our hobbies you will see leaps in the advancement of building techniques.

Don't forget the epoxies that we use, they are still week if you consider the stuff that they use is special applications, but the price is high.

Well thats my 10cents worth, If there are others with more insight I'd been keen to hear myself.

Oz
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Old Mar 27, 2012, 07:47 AM
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This is a hobby for me

- so time is not the issue.

I am looking for the optimum airframe.
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Old Mar 27, 2012, 11:16 AM
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Interesting duplicator. Is there a counterbalance or do you have to hold it up?
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Old Mar 27, 2012, 11:26 AM
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I agree with Tom. Nice pantograph!
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Old Mar 27, 2012, 01:18 PM
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Yep its balanced

I just finished this and need to try it out. Seems to operate very smoothly.

I was looking at a lot of designs and they all have the slide rails mounted on top of the table. I put these underneath so there is nothing in the way, just an open table top. It just seemed that with the router cutting there will be a lot of mess getting into the slide berarings. After I made it I also fijured out that if I take the counter balance off I can flip the swing arm over and extend the lenght of my working surface - I could have made the table another 2 feet longer.

My poor mans CNC.
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Old Mar 27, 2012, 01:23 PM
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With an unlimited budget, I'd have wings made with an aerogel core. Considering that it's the least dense material on the planet, but surprisingly strong, it would probably be ideal except for the price.
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Old Mar 27, 2012, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Air Head View Post
What would the ultimate design look like. I think that a lot of what is being made is due to construction constraints but if we had better materials could we build a better model?

I have been working with Nomex Honeycomb and have built myself a router duplicator so I should be able to carve out some cores. This material in the 1.8 pound density is about 100 PSI and the 3 pound is 300 psi. This is much stronger than the foam being used and if I can contour it to the desired shape would the design be any different than what is currently being produced?

I am thinking of some very thin wings, but have no understanding of all the design software - just looking at tracing my shoe an getting the right curves.

Is there any room for improvement or are we at the edge of technology?
Nice machine. Still, you are going to need something better if you want to go thinner. Personally, the highest quality molds are generated with machines few home builder have access to or built. Fortunately, at least with some current airfoils, distortions in the actual foil don't negatively affect performance to a noticeable level, at least in the very very limited case I evaluated.

Have you considered how a thin (single layer fabric) is going to span the gaps in the honeycomb without distortion, wrinkling or bonding issues? I guess I could just test it myself.

Aerogel or carbon fiber nano-tubes aren't available in any reasonable quantity at any price, my (limited) understanding. Pre-preg carbon is an option, but how much do you want to pay for your model? I could see an easy $20K in upfront investment for aluminum molds, freezer, and homebuilt autoclave. I can't justify that for a toy airplane that I would have to sell at $2K+ to start recouping costs.
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Old Mar 27, 2012, 03:44 PM
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Ah, Sam, but if it was that good ........

Gary
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Old Mar 27, 2012, 05:49 PM
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Hey Sam - Are you working with some honeycomb?

"Have you considered how a thin (single layer fabric) is going to span the gaps in the honeycomb without distortion, wrinkling or bonding issues? I guess I could just test it myself."

Please do some testing - Id be interested in what your doing.

I dont have any issues with "distortion, wrinkling or bonding" - Yes that has been taken into consideration.
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Old Mar 28, 2012, 06:38 PM
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Tail Design

I have spent some time the past few days looking for tail design information. I settled into the "Swindell Tail Thread" and see a super - light 10 gram version mentioned.

I also read that they are being made thinner and thinner so this seems to go along the lines of my thought process.

I am thinking ill start with a thin design and see where that takes me.
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Old Mar 28, 2012, 08:23 PM
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10 gram set? My foam cores weigh almost 6g without epoxy, skins, spars, doublers, hardpoints, or hinge material.

I don't want to call BS but I'm thinking that a 10g tailset will either be flimsy, fragile, too small, cosmetically unacceptable, or a combination of all of the above.

...unless that's without doublers, hardpoints, hinge, etc.

Richard makes wonderful tails but 10g???
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Old Mar 29, 2012, 07:49 AM
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Here you go Tom from the Swindell Tail Tread

Just quoting what I read - Id like to see them


""Richard S Registered User
Milton Keynes, UK
Joined Oct 2005
1,129 Posts

The last few months has seen lots of great new choices for tail-surfaces appear, so to keep ahead of the competition we have been doing some work on new construction techniques & materials.

Coming very soon to our website will be an option for a "super-light" version of our tailsets, our target weight for these is 10grams per set!!

There are obvious advantages to this : -""

I was thinking about trying to save at least 25 % on the all up weight - from a 9 to 10 ounce flyer to 7 to 8 ounce. I think it will be possible with thinner cores and a stronger core material. I am also not looking at cosmetics, this is a form follows function plan.
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Old Apr 03, 2012, 01:57 PM
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I beleive very thin elevators/ rudders are 'fussy' in that they are very sensitive to air movements, ie they stall easily, better go a bit thicker and get better launches, probably why Richards are 10 grms, a little bit thicker giving smoother, higher launches

Nick
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Old Apr 03, 2012, 02:15 PM
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Nick... That's 10grams for the PAIR But that is the "ultralight" version the "regular" ones are 12-14 grams for the pair, depending on paint. And they are pretty thin, especially compared to something like a blaster or the new tails Tom and Brian are working on producing.
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