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Old May 02, 2002, 11:08 AM
Ain't Dutch? Ain't Mutch!
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I think you might have a point there Herb. The leading adge of the fin is rather blunt. I have notised that on several K&A mig-15's.

This could be becous of the form of the mold or becous the two halves didn't close completely.

It would be nice to smooth out that leading edge with some goop and sanding before painting. You could then notise the real difference if eny.

Other contributars are as far as i know would be the high sweep angle of the wings, missaligned fences and a short coupled vertical fin.

But what do i know
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Old May 02, 2002, 03:07 PM
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Old May 02, 2002, 03:09 PM
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Old May 02, 2002, 03:55 PM
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I always thought that sweep-back caused dutch roll, which was due to the dihedral effect of the sweepback. Excessive dihedral and a big fin cause this problem. Anhedral is used to reduce the dihedral effect, and hence reduce the dutch roll. So if the K&A fuselage isn't rigid, as was mentioned earlier, resulting in the wings gaining dihedral instead of the scale 2.1/2deg anhedral, maybe you're getting dutch roll. The big fin on the MiG 15 would make this worse.

BTW, unless the Ezone photos have always distorted the shape, eg by using a short focal length camera lens, those K&A MiG 15s always look to have wings which are too long for scale, with the fences further inboard than scale. Has the designer stuck an extra 2 or 3inches on the end of each wing?

Gordon
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Old May 02, 2002, 04:06 PM
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hi Gordon:
i'm not sure exactly how scale it is. but i measured mine wing tip to wing tip is 37". fuse is 28" measured on the bottom from inlet to outlet. how does this compare to your scale #'s?.......gregg
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Old May 02, 2002, 05:39 PM
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Scale ?

Scale comparison:
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Old May 02, 2002, 08:06 PM
Scott Black, Montreal
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Dutch roll is an oscillitory mode about the yaw axis. The "roll" in the name is due to the fact that yaw feeds into roll via the "dihedral effect" i.e. roll due to sideslip. Also, the primary means of controlling it are with aileron, since it is hard for a pilot to "see" yaw.

There are numerous flavours, one that feels like a pilot sitting on a ball, one that feels like a pilot sitting at the bottom of a bowl. This is due to the phase relationship between sideslip and roll.

Dutch roll is more prevailent, i.e. less damped, in swept wing airplanes for a couple of reasons. First, if you sweep the wings the aerodynamic center, and hence the cg, move aft. So that means that there is a bunch more fuselage sticking out in front of the cg, which reduces the directional stability considerably. Kind of like moving the pivot point aft on a weather vane. It still points into wind, but it might waver a bit, and the frequency of the oscillations reduces. So less like a spring and more like a wet noodle.

2nd, wing sweep acts like dihedral, so for a given sideslip, you are getting a bunch more roll, which tends to make the effect stronger.

All airplanes have this mode, but on most prop planes it is not noticable, because the frequency is high and the damping is strong. Most of our jet models will still damp out quite well, though it might be more noticeable than a prop airplane. My Sabre wiggles if there are gusty conditions. Otherwise it only gives a hint of it when I do a turn, because the ailerons excite the mode.

Putting wedges or beads on the TE of a rudder is for "stick free" dutch roll. This only applies to an airplane with reversable controls i.e. where the airloads can move the rudder and the pilot is not touching the controls. In this case, the dutch roll mode becomes less damped because as the airplane yaws, the rudder deflects due to the effect of sideslip on rudder hinge moments. It takes longer to damp out. The rules are that you are supposed to damp out in 3 cycles (I think - never worked on such an airplane). So if it flops around like a wet noodle, you have to stiffen up the rudder hinge moment, and applying a bead, which they used to do on fabric airplanes by wrapping a piece of rope around the rudder and fabricing it in place, or wedges or even a 90 deg piece of aluminum, creates this effect.

The Ratheon Premier 1 biz jet, which was recently certified, had this problem in pitch, which they fixed with wedges.

For our aircraft, or aircraft with hydraulic controls, where there is no feedback of aerodynamic loads to the pilot, wedges will have no effect.

Gordon, the spit is notorious for having a very small fin/rudder and lots of dihedral. That is why you experienced DR with it I bet.
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Old May 02, 2002, 08:48 PM
It wasn't me...
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Quote:
Originally posted by sblack
...Also, the primary means of controlling it are with aileron, since it is hard for a pilot to "see" yaw...
Depends upon whether you're sitting in the cockpit or standing on the ground.

When sitting in the cockpit, I control yaw with the rudder pedals.

Dan
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Old May 02, 2002, 10:07 PM
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... Gordon, as the picture link above indicates the K&A (S. Toschi plan) has clearly an oversized elevator... I am sure there are other details that aren't scale, like the intake diameter & the vertical fin profile. I am not sure what the (wing) anhedral on the original MiG-15 was (should dig in my 3-d views), mine has just a slight amount.

The thick vertical fin is there for a reason, to hide the elevator servo. One could have made a thinner fin with a less blunt LE, and hook up the elevators with a snake. But I prefer the all flying elevator with the direct servo link one hundred times better, at least from a performance & solidity perspective.

Elevator linkage:


Elevator servo placement:


In any case the design & flight characteristics of the MiG-15 made me develop a deep appreciation for those adventurous individuals (like Chris) who managed to fly a FW Ta-183 Hueckebein, that thing must have been a handful to fly with such a short tail & tiny elevator surfaces ...
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Old May 02, 2002, 11:28 PM
Scott Black, Montreal
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Quote:
Originally posted by DanSavage


Depends upon whether you're sitting in the cockpit or standing on the ground.

When sitting in the cockpit, I control yaw with the rudder pedals.

Dan
If you try controlling dutch roll with rudder inputs, you will get behind the airplane and most likely into a PIO. It is much safer to live with the yaw oscillation and maintain wings level with the wheel when dealing with a yaw damper failure in a swept wing aircraft in a negatively damped configuration.
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Old May 03, 2002, 04:13 AM
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gregg f:

Mine is 44in span with 34.1/2in fuz length. So scaled to the same fuz length as yours, my MiG's span would be 35.7in, compared with the 37in of yours.

That's a lot less difference than i thought it would be from the pix, so I guess that the wide-angle lenses guys have been using at close range have distorted the shape in the photos.

Why I mentioned it wasn't to trash the scale-ness of the K&A machine BTW. Lots of guys are having too much fun with them to make that a sensible proposition, since clearly how scale it is doesn't matter, so long as it looks like and flies like a MiG! I was just thinking that if the wings had been lengthened to lighten the wng loading, this would make the plane more "short-coupled" in essence and strengthen Herb's contention that short-coupled planes snaked worse.

Herb:

Great scale comparison photos there! (how does he do that )

Ref the fin section, I used the standard NACA 0010 section, with the all-moving tail directly driven from the servo like this:
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Old May 03, 2002, 04:15 AM
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gregg f:

Mine is 44in span with 34.1/2in fuz length. So scaled to the same fuz length as yours, my MiG's span would be 35.7in, compared with the 37in of yours.

That's a lot less difference than i thought it would be from the pix, so I guess that the wide-angle lenses guys have been using at close range have distorted the shape in the photos.

Why I mentioned it wasn't to trash the scale-ness of the K&A machine BTW. Lots of guys are having too much fun with them to make that a sensible proposition, since clearly how scale it is doesn't matter, so long as it looks like and flies like a MiG! I was just thinking that if the wings had been lengthened to lighten the wng loading, this would make the plane more "short-coupled" in essence and strengthen Herb's contention that short-coupled planes snaked worse.

Herb:

Great scale comparison photos there! (how does he do that )

Ref the fin section, I used the standard NACA 0010 section, with its normal semi-slim leading edge profile. The all-moving tail directly driven from the servo , which is mounted in the fin.
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Old May 03, 2002, 04:31 AM
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here's a picture
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Old May 03, 2002, 04:32 AM
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and a photo
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Old May 03, 2002, 04:36 AM
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and another ...
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Old May 03, 2002, 04:52 AM
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What I found surprising is the lack of slop in the rudder, which is actuated via a gold'n rod and swingee. I'll use swingees again if they're that good.

Scott:

The 2 Spits I've flown were the big-tail F-24 marks, and both did fishtail in the same manner as your Sabre, ie usually following a roll input, but also in turbulence. Spit pic attached - look at the big fin. Nose is long too. The earlier Spits had much shorter noses (and smaller fins but deeper rear fuselages) so probably didn't wiggle as bad.

Ref dihedral/anhedral, the MiG 15 and Sabre both had the same 1/4-chord sweepback of 35deg, but the MiG has 2 deg anhedral (I said 2.1/2 before and was wrong, Herb), and the Sabre 3 deg dihedral. Do you think the designers did that just to mix up we R/C fliers?

Although the MiG (and Ta 184) seemed to have big fins and short fuselages compared with the Sabre, the relative tail moments weren't all that different. Compared with the Sabre, the MiG has a lot less aft fuselage area. However, one could argue that this "lost" area was simply transferred to the big fin, which, being heavily swept. acted in a manner of a fuselage extension.

I guess we'll just have to enjoy our models' quirks

Gordon
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Old May 03, 2002, 09:03 AM
Scott Black, Montreal
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There is a certain amount of "dihedral effect" (I use this term because everyone understands it, but it is not what is used in industry) that full scale airplanes require. They want to have a balanced amount of aileron required for a given rudder input to do a steady heading sideslip. The ratio of the pedal to roll forces is known as control harmony.

That dihedral effect comes from 4 main sources: wing dihedral, wing sweep, wing position on the fuselage and the fin. The Mig is a mid-wing, the Sabre is a low wing. That is the big difference that I see. Both have fairly large fins, the same sweep, etc. The Sabre has 3 deg dihedral, and you say the Mig has 2 deg of anhedral. I am surprised that the difference is that much, as usually a low wing airplane is considered to need about 2 deg to be neutral. Who knows, but the wing position is the big difference I see between the Mig and Sabre unless the fin contributions are considerably different. Overall, both airplanes would probably have similar rolling moment due to sideslip, as both were considered by pilots to be nice airplanes to fly.
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Old May 03, 2002, 10:12 AM
Purple power
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Gordon:
thanks for the info and pic's. i like the "swingee" set up. had i known they work so well, i would of added a rudder to mine...gregg
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Old May 03, 2002, 10:32 AM
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I added a rudder to my Mig, and mounted the servo above the ducting behind the fan with a short pushrod going back to the rudder. I of course didn't get to find out how well it worked but there was no slop at all with the short pushrod.
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Old May 03, 2002, 02:33 PM
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Gordon, very interesting. My Spitfire Mk. IX does not snake... but has an enlarged elevator (but not the fin as far as I can tell),


It's from the wonderful Balsacraft kit (made, or should I say no longer made) in the UK...
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Old May 04, 2002, 02:23 PM
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Hi Herb

I saw Pete Nicholson's prototype Spitfire a lot (Pete introduced me to e-flight), and it never snaked either. BTW, I've been admiring pix of your MiG and Spit in the MWE event report in May S&EM.

My zapped RC1600 (aka CP1700) arrived yesterday and I made two 22-cell packs and cycled them overnight. This morning the MiG had lost 7oz weight (wrt the 20-cell 2400s I replaced), gained a bunch of power, and flew and landed a whole lot better. Top speed isn't increased much, but climb and vertical is much improved, and a vertical roll and push off the top is dead easy now, whereas everything had to be just right before.

I had 4 flights, and it looks as if about 4 mins flight duration will be achievable (plus taxi out and back) with a reasonable aerobatic sequence thrown in.

Gordon
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Old May 05, 2002, 08:43 PM
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Well I did it today, my MiG-15 no. 2 whistled off tyhe bungee today at 800+ Watts, it only needed some slight up trim I guess I am getting better at building my planes straight .

I think the ge silicone holding the battery tray was still wet, but everything went fine in spite of my slight nervousness. Since it's faster & heavier (+14 oz over my other one) it needs an even longer landing approach...
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Old May 05, 2002, 09:25 PM
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great job Herb, hope to see it next saturday...........gregg
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Old May 05, 2002, 11:06 PM
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Hi Herb
Good job. Is the second one with the JEPE fan?
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Old May 06, 2002, 01:39 PM
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Terje, I put an HW-609 fan in mine.

Gordon, I wonder if you noticed any difference between zapped and non-zapped cells. I have two 10-cell CP1700 packs, one is zapped ($80) and the other one is not ($30). The MiG flies better (=slightly more or at best about same power) with the latter...
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Old May 06, 2002, 01:52 PM
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Re: Second flight

Quote:
Originally posted by terje s
...had one problem hav very wide turns seems i need more elevator ,i already has hvat the instruktions say ,can i move CG backvards to get more elevator response?...
terje
Btw lack of sufficient throw on the elevator seems to be a recurrent problem with this model, a friend of mine has a K&A MiG-15 (built by Ken) and he does not have enough elevator throw to perform a loop ....
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Old May 06, 2002, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Herb
Terje, I put an HW-609 fan in mine.

Gordon, I wonder if you noticed any difference between zapped and non-zapped cells. I have two 10-cell CP1700 packs, one is zapped ($80) and the other one is not ($30). The MiG flies better (=slightly more or at best about same power) with the latter...
Hi Herb

Unfortunately the only CP1700s I own are all zapped, so I can't make a comparison. These are the first zapped nicads I have owned, and I chose zapped because I intend to push the currents pretty high - i still have some spare cells to make my 2 22-packs into 24-packs if I feel the need

BTW, it struck me that on 800W, your latest MiG must have made bungee launching redundant, judging from the relative ease with which you appeared to solo hand launch your previous MiG

Regarding the comments on elevator throw, I need to do some work on my MiG as well. Up-throw is OK at about 8deg, and if I went to full rate I would have 10deg available. However, I seem to need more down on the all-moving tail. It will perform a nice smooth and large half-loop from inverted, but I don't think there's enough elevator there to perform a full outside loop, either from inverted, or from erect So I might try adding some differential to get more down than up, though I can't say I really want to do that.

How do you rate the visibility of your new red-top scheme? is there much improvement over the silver/red tail? My eyes need to know

Cheers

Gordon
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Old May 06, 2002, 03:15 PM
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Gordon
This one is very visible.
I have flown a lot of models with a variety of colors and this
is by far the best one to spot.

Terje
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Old May 06, 2002, 03:33 PM
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Gordon,

the red top/ white bottom scheme is very visible. But so is the red tail 4115, in particular it's the red tail that really stands out. In any case here in SCalif we have mostly sunny skies with very good visibility.

By far the worst one re visibilty issues is my grey top EF 2000, I am still looking for imaginative ways of making it more visible because it's just borderline of what I can handle visibility-wise.

Re the zapping/pushing business, I recently read a seemingly very good & thorough article in FMT (showing internal resistances at 1kHz before and after zapping, with additional high current cycling thereafter) which suggested that the often touted effects of pushing/zapping fade away rather rapidly.
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Old May 06, 2002, 03:51 PM
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Re Zapping/matching

Hi folks

I dont believe Zapped cells is worth the money in these aplications .It is when you draw more than 40-50 amps
that zapping is worth it.I have tried zapped cells in 40 amp planes with barely no differens in performance.then i`ve used the same packs(10 cells)in my Surprice 10 with about 110 amp draw
and there is like day and night in difference.GM-racing states in
their users manual that you should not charge these cells(rc2000)
below 5 amps or they will start to fade back to normal.These
cells like to live a hard life(up to a certain point).I have "ruined"
Zapped/matched packs on low amp planes.they just go back to normal performance.
I think there is alot of guys on this forum that knows much more about this than me ,but this is what i have experienced.

Terje
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Old May 06, 2002, 04:47 PM
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I was obviously only referring to high Amp applications, in the MiG I draw 55+ Amps and there is no noticeable difference between normal and zapped. The whole point of zapping is the claimed ability to maintain higher voltage (about + a few percent) under load. My Graupner Ultra duo plus II charges them at 5.5 Amps, that's not what I would refer to as low chareg current either.

The article in FMT also refers to high current (50A) apprlications & charges at high currents as well.

At even higher currents (+100 Amps) the zapped cells might do better, but I see that as one more reason to buy the normal ones unless you do competition - since the packs will have a very short lifetime at those insane currents.
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Old May 06, 2002, 05:10 PM
Scott Black, Montreal
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gordon

Up-throw is OK at about 8deg, and if I went to full rate I would have 10deg available. However, I seem to need more down on the all-moving tail. It will perform a nice smooth and large half-loop from inverted, but I don't think there's enough elevator there to perform a full outside loop, either from inverted, or from erect So I might try adding some differential to get more down than up, though I can't say I really want to do that.
Why not? I don't see a problem with doing that. How much down do you need for inverted? If you need a bunch then maybe a cg tweak is in order. Does it pull to the canopy in knife-edge?
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Old May 06, 2002, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by sblack


Why not? I don't see a problem with doing that. How much down do you need for inverted? If you need a bunch then maybe a cg tweak is in order. Does it pull to the canopy in knife-edge?
Hi Scott

Why not? 'cos I'm becoming a scaredy-cat in my old age

For level flight inverted it needs almost all the down throw available,and it's only the last bit that gets it looping.

Ref knife-edge, I haven't tried that properly yet, but she does nice 8-point hesitation rolls.

From the way she behaves generally, I think the CG is about right. However, now I'm basically happy with the plane, I have some more optimisation to do (and a lot of EDF flying practice to do as well - all you guys are streets ahead of me on that) so provided she stays reliable, I'll get it fully sorted in the next few weeks.

Ref the colour scheme, my 4115 is fine excepting when turning finals with the model at, say, 3 o'clock, and the sun at 9 o'clock, and the wings well banked over in the turn. The wings just disappear from view, reflecting the sky I think, and I have to pray the bank angle stays constant as the bright slash of light which is the fuselage completes the turn onto the glideslope. If landing from up-sun, there's no problem, however, as the plane is fully visible all the time.

BTW, as you will know Herb, some of the prototype EF2000s are all-black, and this would make yours more visible. When I was working with the RAF Hawks at the Tactical Weapons Unit, the RAF suddenly ordered that they should all be painted black to aid visibility in air combat manoeuvring training. I note that the Nato Hawks in Canada are dark blue, probably for the same visibility reason.

Cheers

Gordon
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Old May 06, 2002, 06:01 PM
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WATCH YOUR 6........BANDIT ON YOUR TAIL
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Old May 06, 2002, 10:48 PM
Scott Black, Montreal
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gordon
[B]

Hi Scott

Why not? 'cos I'm becoming a scaredy-cat in my old age

For level flight inverted it needs almost all the down throw available,and it's only the last bit that gets it looping.
I don't understand why there is anything to be scared of increasing the down throw. If you need a bunch of trim to fly inverted, and if you have a low camber airfoil, it can only be a cg issue. If you can't easily outside loop, you are not able to generate negative AOAs.

So you are not even close to stalling it in outside maneuvers. You have plenty of room to play with. I think that either changing the throw or moving back the cg in small increments will make the model LESS scary to fly. Pulling out of an outside loop and running out of down would scare the hell out of me. I don't think you have anything to worry about if you make that adjustment.
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Old May 07, 2002, 03:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by terje s
Gordon
This one is very visible.
Terje

It sure is. Looks great too. Are those decals available, or did you make them yourself?

Scott

I do agree with what you say, and increasing down throw is on the list of things to be done. The model is not scary, BTW, but as it's the only plane I have right now which I really like flying, I'm just taking things steadily.

I'm not all that fussed about being able to bunt the thing, though the RAF Hawk solo airshow sequence of yesteryear did include a figure where the plane was looped until pointing 45deg downwards and inverted, and then recovered, gently, to level flight for an inverted low pass; I'll get my MiG plane to do that eventually ..... but not necessarily by tomorrow .... and not necessarily all that low

With only 3-4 minute flights, and a motor cooling off period between, flight testing and optimising the model's behaviour will take longer than it used to with propeller and i/c planes

Gordon
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Old May 07, 2002, 04:55 AM
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Gordon

A friend of mine made the decals for me.He used an decal cutting machine.I have the Corel draw file to make them if you want it.

Terje
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Old May 07, 2002, 03:26 PM
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Herb

i'd be very grateful if you'd send me a PM with the motor/esc/cells/propeller setup for your Balsacraft Spit

Thanks

Gordon
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Old May 07, 2002, 08:51 PM
Scott Black, Montreal
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Re: Re: Second flight

Quote:
Originally posted by Herb


Btw lack of sufficient throw on the elevator seems to be a recurrent problem with this model, a friend of mine has a K&A MiG-15 (built by Ken) and he does not have enough elevator throw to perform a loop ....
If he has a "normal" amount of throw relative to the elevator trim required to fly hands off and it is not enough then his cg is too far forward.
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Old May 07, 2002, 11:25 PM
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It has nothing to do with the CG, the elevator servo is pretty much inaccessible after the tail has been built. Some people do not carefully check their linkage excursion before closing up the tail, and then it's too late.
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Old May 07, 2002, 11:55 PM
Purple power
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scott:
if the builder doesn't open up the slots in the fin there will not be enough movement in the elev. a dremel fixes it in two minutes........gregg
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Old May 13, 2002, 12:54 PM
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pics

Paint job finished & decals applied, had second flight in SD on saturday...
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Old May 13, 2002, 12:56 PM
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pic

one more...
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Old May 18, 2002, 09:04 AM
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Herb

Very nice colors on your Mig,what powers your HW609?
Had an near fatal the other day with my Mig,thanks to my setup
i managed to muscle my self out after an tipp stall during landing.
still needs much more elevator,but i have to open the stab
to change the servo horn, have no more travel on the servo.


Terje
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Old May 18, 2002, 09:38 AM
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Herb,
It looks great!!!! I have one still in the box and just haven't had time to get to it.

Terje,
I would like a copy of the file for the decals. I have a vinyl cutter so that would save some time.

Thanks, Jim Phelps
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Old Jun 04, 2002, 05:08 PM
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Rumor has it that there are lot of little Bugs buzzing around these days ... Can a single red hot MiG-15 take them on?

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Old Jul 03, 2002, 01:31 PM
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Metal gear servos on the elevator is the way to go on the MiG-15. A friend (Doug) at my field had his MiG-15 built by somebody else a couple of weeks ago - and ended up already stripping the elevator gears around the 5-th flight or so... It's somewhat of a pain to go in there and try retrofitting.
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Old Jul 23, 2002, 04:16 PM
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A second K&A MiG-15 (not mine, don't use plastic gear servos on mine) also stripped the elevator plastic gears on a landing a week ago.

It seems plastic gears on full flying elevators won't last for long... And it's a real pain to get in there and switch gears, or worse servos...
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Old Jul 23, 2002, 09:29 PM
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Can this mig handle landing gear ? Gordon or Herb i would like to fly it of the tarmack , by the way Herb i also live in southern Cal. I Would like to hire you to build mine , contact me of list thanks or cell 909-709-0980 thanks Ed
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Old Jul 24, 2002, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mavdriver
...I Would like to hire you to build mine , contact me ...thanks Ed
Thanks for the compliments, but I have another day job which I'm not going to give up any time soon ...

The K&A MiG-15 is not designed for LG, and it would not fit (unless you like to build display models), but Gordon's MiG-15 is larger and works perfectly with a fully scale LG...
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Old Aug 17, 2002, 02:44 PM
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Somebody showed me the article in July's MAN, the one on the right is Daren's sharp F-4 (I'm sure I'll get this wrong )...

AND not to be confused with Dan's sharp F-106!
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Old Aug 17, 2002, 02:56 PM
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Herb wrote:
Somebody showed me the article in July's MAN, the one on the right is Daren's sharp F-106 (I'm sure I'll get this wrong )...

yup, you did ..........gregg
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Old Sep 18, 2002, 05:07 PM
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A picture and some info on last saturday's event...

Right to left (or top to bottom):

1) Gregg's Russian Aerobatic team red MiG-15 with a Kontronic Fun 480-42 driving a WeMoTec MF480 on ten zapped CP 1700 cells, Jeti controller. Ca. 560 Watts peak?

2) Doug's Polish camo Mig-15 with WeMoTec MF480 fan & Hacker B40-11S & Jeti Master 40A controller on 12 regular CP 1700 cells. Ca. 580 Watts peak.

3) Doug's red MiG-15 with WeMoTec MF480 fan & Hacker B40-11S & Jeti Master 40A controller on 12 regular CP 1700 cells (same as his other one, slightly older & heavier airframe). Ca. 580 Watts peak.

4) My silver/red tail PRC MiG-15 with WeMoTec MF480 fan & Kontronic Fun 480-42 with 3SL 70A controller on 12 regular CP 1700 cells. Ca 710 Watts peak.

5) My Red Russian Aerobatic Team MiG-15 with WeMoTec HW-609 fan, Hacker B50-12S and Jeti Master 70A controller on 14 regular CP 1700 cells, at 69oz ca 9 oz heavier than no. 4. Ca. 780 Watts peak.

Gregg (left) & Doug (right) in the background. Further in the background Christina, our swedish air traffic controller , checking flight authorizations, noise rules compliance etc.

New video of my all-red russian one here:

http://aeneas.ps.uci.edu/edf/mig15/mig15_hw.mpg (16 MB)
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Old Sep 18, 2002, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by gregg f
Herb wrote:
Somebody showed me the article in July's MAN, the one on the right is Daren's sharp F-106 (I'm sure I'll get this wrong )...

yup, you did ..........gregg
Actually, you both did. That's Daren's sharp F-4.

Daren
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Old Oct 06, 2002, 04:20 PM
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Mig modifications

Hi guys

After many flights my trusty mig starts to look worn,so i have started an "midlife update"I plan to cut the fuse behind the wing to get better access to the fan and locate the battery pack in the belly instead of the cocpit.Iwill also icorporate all the mods mentioned on this thread.Does any of you have an pic on how
to couple the forward and aft fuse in a good way?I use an 90 mm
spiderfan and up to now i have to cut apart the ducting in order to get the fan unit out out (had to change the controller).thats
why i will make the mod.pls feel free to come with advise on other
modifications also

TIA
Terje
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Old Oct 06, 2002, 04:54 PM
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Terjes
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Old Oct 06, 2002, 04:56 PM
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pic 2
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Old Oct 06, 2002, 09:04 PM
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This one has a ply ring like Greg's and where the 5 screws go there's extra wood for the screw to grab.

You can see some of the 24 cells behind the motor bulkhead, but most are ahead of it.

Steve C
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Old Oct 06, 2002, 11:33 PM
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Yikes 24 cells Steve? How many watts do you get HOTC? Must be just enough to distort space time.

James
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Old Oct 07, 2002, 02:34 AM
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Hi again

Thanks Gregg and Steve for the pics.will do like you guys.
Steve:24 cells? hvat setup do you have and type of cells,auw?

Terje
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Old Oct 07, 2002, 09:25 AM
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This fan is now in my F-16 on 24 not zapped CP1700's. The MiG carried CP2400's and weighed a lot! Seriously, I don't think I ever weighed it, just checked static thrust at 4.5 lbs or so. It's just sitting now. I have two of them- the other is all molded and never been finished.

Steve C
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Old Oct 07, 2002, 11:01 AM
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Terje, You can check out a few pictures in the efi article here:



First I moved the fan opening in the bulkhead to accomodate the CP 1700 cells.
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Old Oct 07, 2002, 11:04 AM
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Another pic showing one of the two ply rings for alignment & fit (the other goes around & inside the tail section), and the four hardwood blocks holding the four m2 nuts.
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Old Oct 07, 2002, 11:11 AM
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A final picture showing the tail section mated to the fuse, with the four m2 bolts screwed in. The tail has to be a tight fit with good overlap between the two 1/64 ply rings, both glued & reinforced with laminating epoxy.

The tail section is eventually glued into place to the fuse with ge silicone ii, which will prevent any movement & vibration. It can always be pulled out by removing the four m2 nuts & pulling hard enough, although I luckily did not have the oppoprtunity yet to try it... It seem to work ok for me at least for now...
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Old Oct 07, 2002, 06:24 PM
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Hi Herb
Thanks for exellent pics/advice.cant do anything wrong now.

regards
Terje
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Old Oct 07, 2002, 06:29 PM
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Terjes,

Are you running 15 cells? I was looking back through your earlier posts to this thread and you said that you were running 15 cells, and it looks like I see 13. Are there two more hiding somewhere?

The reason why I ask is that I am thinking about running a lower KV motor on more cells to up the flight time a bit, but then again, I am not sure if what I make up in runtime will be consumed by weight. Haldor, Gregg, Herb, please feel free to advise as I take your information to heart!

Thanks,
James
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Old Oct 07, 2002, 06:41 PM
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personally i like the lighter, leaner version. i had it on 16cells with another mtr/fan. but it was 14oz heavier at about the same speed.
I'll leave the 175mph version to Steve C. he's young and has good eyes ................gregg
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Old Oct 08, 2002, 02:46 AM
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battery pack

Hi Admiral

Actually i have added an extra cell to make it 16 in total.on the pic you see only 13 as you mentioned but the stick is longer the cells is hiding and rests against the former that holds the fan,the last cell i added is behind the one on top of the sticks, they barely fit under the canopy.Cells are cp1700.Total weight on the model is 67 oz.

Terje
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Old Oct 08, 2002, 02:15 PM
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I've been told that K&A sold about 200 of these kits world-wide. Judging from how few I have actually seen or heard fly, I would guess about one in ten ever makes it to the air successfully, but perhaps I'm wrong.

I know of at least two people at my field who have been phantasizing about various setups for more than a year, every time they show up at the field (never flown any edf's) they give me a long story of how fast theirs will be with an Aveox 1419 0.2y on 22 cells etc. .
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Old Oct 08, 2002, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Herb
I've been told that K&A sold about 200 of these kits world-wide. Judging from how few I have actually seen or heard fly, I would guess about one in ten ever makes it to the air successfully, but perhaps I'm wrong.
that means 25% of the flying ones are in SoCal..should we rename it Fighter Town?


Quote:
[i] I know of at least two people at my field who have been phantasizing about various setups for more than a year, every time they show up at the field (never flown any edf's) they give me a long story of how fast theirs will be with an Aveox 1419 0.2y on 22 cells etc. . [/B]
at least they dream about them. my club guys dream about gws. i feel lonely now!........gregg
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Old Oct 08, 2002, 02:29 PM
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All molded?

Hi Steve c
I saw you mentioned an all molded one ,Hmmm interresting.
one of a kind? from hvere?

Terje
who is in need of one more Mig
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Old Oct 08, 2002, 03:23 PM
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Terje:

You might talk Steve into parting with one of his, but you can get one from Ken, he was kind enough to lay one up for the sale price for me.

Steve C:
Yeah, where did that molded one come from?

James
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Old Oct 08, 2002, 05:10 PM
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I hate to say that I have one of the 200 still in a box. I bought it and an EAM Mig17 about the same time and decided that the 17 looked easier and faster to build so I did it. I had to put it down this summer because I wore it out. Our field is a little rough on belly landing jets. I don't know for sure how many flights it had but it was usually the first and last plane that I flew. I'm finishing Mig 17 #2 (along with 3 other planes).

After reading this thread I think the 15 will be next or what the heck maybe it will be #5 on the table.

Jim Phelps
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Old Nov 06, 2002, 10:07 PM
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Got mine....

Well, I just got my Mig in the mail today. Man it's some nice glasswork. Can't wait to get started.

Though I think I'm going to break the mold and do a color scheme that hasn't ever been on a real mig before...

Paul
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Old Nov 06, 2002, 11:18 PM
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Wait a second Arbo, didn't I read that you were frustrated with EDF and were hanging them up for a while? If so, just send that Mig over here, I need a second one! Oh yeah, send the Fan drive S too!

James
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Old Nov 07, 2002, 05:58 AM
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James...

If that's what you read, maybe you misinterpreted me.

Yes, frustrated with 'theoretical watts' and required watts per pound and all such silly things.

But I flew the RT mig-15 on a KY fan with the FanDriveS with a 7 cell pack and was crusing above 60mph, not only should the watts not let me do it, but many long time edfers would say it wouldn't work. I gotta say, in real life, it did just fine. Unfortunately a bad bungee accident killed it before I could put in a 10 cell pack and try that, but I'm sure that 'crappy' KY fan would have haulled ass across the sky even better with the 10 cell pack.

Saidly, the KY fan with the FandriveS and 7 cells puts out WAY less watts than the MF480 with the same drive on 10 cells, yet it flies planes much better (again, real life viewing on my part)...

So I just sorta gave up on believing all the rules and now everything works much better.

Paul
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Old Nov 07, 2002, 07:08 AM
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I was just trying to see if I could get a second Mig that way I could have one scale and the other a civilian demonstrator model Good luck on the MIG

James
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Old Nov 07, 2002, 10:44 AM
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Oh well, this one is too nice to give away.

I am considering using the KY fan and FandriveS in this one, probably because it performs better than anyone would give it credit for. For example, Motocalc shows that combo with a 10 cell 1300 pack drawing 37 amps... 370 watts right? Actual measured (about a minute ago) was 34.5 amps, so 345 watts. I know from previous use of that motor in a MF480, I get about 280 watts (28 amps 10 cell... I still don't get that theoretical 400 watts stuff, this gets nowhere near a 40 amp draw)...

I also ran some of the setups you guys have, with marked speeds, in motocalc, and it is off on top speed by quite a bit, on the order of 25 mph or so. If that's the case, and adding to it that motocalc said the rt mig with that combo on 7 cells was only 180 watts, with a top speed of 45, when I know I was going at least 60, I'm figuring the 10 cell pack and the KY/kontronics setup is going to throw this thing over 80 mph.

Paul
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Old Nov 07, 2002, 10:59 AM
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According to the experts, a 4200kv motor and 10 cells will put the minifan version of this airplane up into the triple digit range. I am looking for 100+ on mine. The KY might explode at that sort of speed With the KY though, you could have the thrust to handlaunch easily.

James
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Old Nov 08, 2002, 08:13 PM
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Sorry I'm a bit Late..

I just caught up with this thread.... Herb, in your Mig which started this thread, am I correct in that you are you pulling 50amps out of those CP1700s???
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Old Nov 08, 2002, 08:39 PM
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Re: Sorry I'm a bit Late..

Quote:
Originally posted by flyingace15
I just caught up with this thread.... Herb, in your Mig which started this thread, am I correct in that you are you pulling 50amps out of those CP1700s???
Herb's out of town. but the answer is yes 52-55a off the charger.......... gregg
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Old Nov 08, 2002, 09:06 PM
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All right, thanks Gregg
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Old Nov 09, 2002, 07:43 AM
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QUESTION FOR YOU MIG DRIVERS WHICH KIT IS BETTER ? EAM MIG 17 OR K & A 15 , IM NOT MUCH OF A BUILDER SO WHICH ONE GOES TOGETHER EASIER ? THANKS FOR THE INPUT ED
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Old Nov 11, 2002, 07:03 AM
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I have both and decided to build the Mig-17 first. Actually finishing the second Mig-17 now. I liked the 17 because every single part in the kit is pre-cut and the intake and exhaust duct is moulded and ready to glue in. It has good instructions and goes together very well. The duct is sized for a HW609 fan. The K&A Mig 15 duct is not put together so you can size it for a 480 or 609.

Jim Phelps
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Old Nov 12, 2002, 09:35 AM
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thanks Jim for your input ,i bought the 17 also with out researching how it flys or build , so now i have the incentive to go ahead and put it together , by the way how does it fly thanks . Ed
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Old Nov 12, 2002, 10:28 AM
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I wore the first one out. It flies very well, just don't get it to slow on landing. BTW, I have a Hacker B50-12S, 609 fan, 10-CP1700. I may try 11 cells in the new one, although with 10 it was plenty fast. It was usually the first and last plane that I would fly. I fly off of a grass field that needs to be renovated, so it took some beatings on landing. On the second one I laid a layer of fiberglass drywall tape in the bottom (this was Herb's idea) to beaf it up a little.

Jim Phelps
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Old Nov 12, 2002, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mavdriver
QUESTION FOR YOU MIG DRIVERS WHICH KIT IS BETTER ? EAM MIG 17 OR K & A MIG-15 ... ED
I would say the MiG-15 imo.

It's a much better flier & the design is very good, with performance - more than scale looks - in mind.
Building it can be a challenge at times, especially sliding in and fitting the fan can be a source of frustration. On the other hand once it's built it is easy to fly and maintain. It is extremely rugged. The battery packs can be exchanged in a few seconds. The pack size is completely standard (two joined stick of five or six or seven depending on cell size), so I use the same one as for some of my other planes. Perhaps there's a reason why you see five MiG-15's in the above picture at our field ??

The MiG-17 is easier to build but I dislike the whole elevator setup. The battery has to be custom made in several pieces to fit around formers & ducting, and then glued in place or be tied and retied so it won't move around on the first roll. Also, since it's a small plane it should have been designed for the MF480 in the first place I think. I am still puzzled as to why it was designed for a 75mm fan, the 609 & suitable motor just adds unnecessary weight - which we can do without in a jet ...
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Old Nov 12, 2002, 09:07 PM
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thanks Jim and Herb you guys have been a wealth of information , i really appreciated Ed
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Old Nov 19, 2002, 08:44 PM
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Doug's MiG-15 flying overhead,
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Old Dec 02, 2002, 11:16 PM
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Mig 15

Hi gentleman I have a question concerning the exhaust and intake diameter for this jet. I'm using a mini fan 480 and a Kontronics 480-42 motor. What diameter should the intake be? And what diameter should the exhaust be? Also would this mig still be hand launchable if I was to use 12 cells. Thanks in advance for anybody that can help.

William
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Old Dec 03, 2002, 09:07 AM
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William;
intake is 68-69mm
outlet is 53mm.

i've seen them handlaunched. but i wouldn't try it myself......gregg
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Old Dec 03, 2002, 12:08 PM
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Thanks Gregg for the quick response that solved the problem.

William
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Old Dec 03, 2002, 12:44 PM
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On the MF480 one (and the 480-42 setup, like yours) I use the standard intake diameter, but restrict the outlet to 52-53mm. That seems to work very well, but even 55mm would be fine.

It can be handlaunched (see my video linked above) but on 12 cells I would not recommend it, it's just too heavy and therefore too risky. Make sure you have a controller that can handle the amps.
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Old Dec 03, 2002, 01:03 PM
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mig 15

Do you think the jet will fly off of a 9 cell 1700 mah battery. See I have a few 12 cell packs and a few 9 cell packs. I really wanted to handlaunch the jet because I don't have a catapult.

William
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Old Dec 03, 2002, 01:08 PM
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What 1700's? CP 1700?

It will fly on 9 CP 1700's but it will still be hard to handlaunch unless it's very light (< 52 oz or so) and you are very good & experienced at handlaunches. I think with 9 or 8 CP 1700 you might run into a CG problem as well (tail heavy).

My recommendation: build a bungee launcher for the MiG-15.
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Old Dec 03, 2002, 03:48 PM
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Mig 15

Herb thanks for the info. Is there a thread on ezone that describes how to make a bungee launcher.

Thanks,
William
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Old Dec 03, 2002, 04:00 PM
Purple power
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here's some info.... http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...ungee+launcher
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Old Dec 03, 2002, 04:07 PM
www.turbofanelectrics.com
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Thanks Gregg

William
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Old Dec 03, 2002, 04:27 PM
Al
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Sidney,British Columbia, Canada
Joined Jan 1999
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Herb
[B]
5) completely fiberglass (3/4 oz) wing, wing to fuse joint & ff elevator (3/4 oz)[B]


Herb I just want to confirm that you used 3/4 oz glass cloth reinforcement on the outside connection between the wing and the fuse. The instructions mention 3 or 4oz glass cloth. Just wondering?Cheers
Al
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Old Dec 03, 2002, 04:43 PM
Purple power
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shadow hills,ca
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Al: you can use multiple layers of lighter cloth. i think i used 2 layers of 1 or 2oz. ............gregg
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