A 1M Zone Wing - Page 3

The Tellurian · Nov 06, 2009, 10:32 PM

Thanks for to guidance Gerald!

We get a 14 minute window in which to fly a 6 minute flight, spot land and return the Tx to the impound. The point about min sink performance being be more important than max L/D is probably true but it can be hard to see the little ones when they top out at or over a 1000'.

My last effort was AG3 foil at 1.2 M based roughly on the Mimi wing. Inside panel was HL60 and outer Formular what ever is sold in the big box stores, carbon rods top and bottom but with a film covering. AUW was 185gm with spent motor, pod and pylon [40-45 gm no matter the size plane hence the desire to compensate with a bigger wing]

I don't have any skills with XFLRS and must do things empirically so I shall build a 1.1, a 1.3 [Z46-Z36 as you suggest] and a 1.5 [2P] and see if I can try them all on the same day. The idea being that reportedly the 1.5s can stay up much longer than the 1 M in dead air. The test will be to see if the smaller wings extra altitude compensates for the duration of the larger wings. I can then with confidence go chase thermals.

Thanks again.

Richard

muto · Nov 06, 2009, 10:57 PM

Thanks for advice Gerald. I'll try for 1.2 m wing for my new RGDLG

.

Dimitre

G_T · Nov 06, 2009, 11:19 PM

You guys will have to let me know how this all works out. I know I have received requests for wings around 1.2M before but I never really knew why. Now I know!

Gerald

Berrie · Nov 07, 2009, 11:32 AM

I have the wing (foamblocks) templates and profile templates as a .DXF ready. Dennis wil cut the profile templates with a lasercutter. The wingtemplates will be cutted oxygen/acethyleen in 1" carbonsteel. I will use them as a weight during cutting the wing out of the foamblocks.

(live is easy with al those CNC cutting stuff at our jobs...)

I'm willing to attach the .DXF here in this thread. Sadly this forum doesn't like . DXF. Can anyone help? Is there interest?

GaryO · Nov 12, 2009, 06:49 PM

Berrie,

Wont the extra thick templates (1" steel) really cool the wire?

Gary

GaryO · Nov 12, 2009, 06:52 PM

Gerald,

Earlier you said:

"If people are interested in a lower aspect ratio version of the Zone 2P wing I can create one. I'm certainly set up to do it."

It's obvious that you are doing lots of other things. Do you have any idea when you might do this, or are things just too hectic?

Gary

G_T · Nov 12, 2009, 07:11 PM

Gary,

The wing is basically done. If I last long enough tonight I'll see what I can do.

Gerald

Berrie · Nov 13, 2009, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryO

Berrie,

Wont the extra thick templates (1" steel) really cool the wire?

Gary

I think I wasn't very clear a few posts ago. We will make two kind of templates:

1) Weights to hold the foam on the workdesk
2) Templates for cutting the wing (foil)

These 1"templates are ment to put ON the foamblocks to keep them flath on the workdesk. There will be at least 15mm foam between the cutting wire and the weights.

The cuttingtemplates, at the sides of the foamblocks, shall be made of 0.4mm thick stainlesssteel or whatever there is for free.

"sadly" both the laser and acetyleen/oxygen cutters have a lot "real" work to do. So we have to wait. (Economical revival started one week to early...)

Pook · Nov 13, 2009, 02:50 PM

Damn you economy...why must you mock us! :P

Berrie · Nov 15, 2009, 07:22 AM

So, here we have the first steps! I draw the Mini Zone and printed the view to see how the wing is gonna look.

The weights are cut:

I wasn't sure if it was necessary to cut 3 foamblocks for each wing, but I tought it could give a nice new challenge to cut a acurate wing tip. Therefore the 40mm span of the wingtip foamblock will give some extra attention to cut that.

The foil templates need a little fine sanding before we can cut, but the profile looks very accurate to me:

I try to follow up some advises that Phil and Gerald gave to attain better wingaccuracy in one of the Zone (profile) threads. One of their suggestions is using a thinner cutting wire. I use to cut with 0.5mm. With some 0.3mm wire in store I made me a new, smaller, cutting bow to cut with the 0.3mm wire. Will see if that works for me.

The first Mini Zone wing will be a cheap version cause we don't have experience with glassed mini wings. Using the green foam (which I can get for free mostly cause it is waste from building houses), 54gram/m@2 glas and carbon sparcaps. During the build I will write down al the weights from the used parts.

Test flying this wing will be done on a wooden Mimi fuselage.

After that we will make lighter/better wings and a fiberfuselage. About the final tailfeathers we still don't have made a decision.

back to building:

I made a 0.4mm thick carbonplate from rovings. With double sticky tape a piece of mylar was taped on a piece of wood. With tape I made 0.5mm thick wall on the mylar. A piece of balsasheet, that fits between the tapewalls, was covered with cheap packing tape. (I like that tape a lot. Epoxy doesn't stick on that stuff.)

The rovings were wetted carefully, bottom first, carefully hardroled in one directrion, heated with a haredryer and vaccuumbagged.

This turned out very good in my opinion.

I cut out 4 strips for this wing. 6mm at the root, 3mm at the tip, 0.4mm overall thicknes. The first 6 grams...

GaryO · Nov 15, 2009, 11:25 AM

Gerald,

You said :"

Gary,

The wing is basically done. If I last long enough tonight I'll see what I can do.

Gerald "

Is that the one that is now posted on the 2P thread?

Gary

The Tellurian · Nov 15, 2009, 11:27 AM

Hi Berrie
Can you give me an idea of the density of that foam? The entire wing is the same foam and the carbon plate is to be the spar material, correct? BTW you can post the .dxf if they are in a .zip format.

Interested in your build.

Richard

G_T · Nov 15, 2009, 03:01 PM

Gary, yes.

Gerald

Pook · Nov 16, 2009, 01:34 AM

I'm sorting out parts at the moment to try to make my first steps towards cutting my own wings, so it's really great seeing how you are doing it....thanks for all the pictures!

Just a quick question about the carbon plate, Is it laid up with the tow overlapping like bricks in a wall or side by side?

I guess if its side by side then the strength comes from the rolling?

A little drawing of a cross section to try to illustrate my question

Thanks

Piers

Berrie · Nov 17, 2009, 06:59 AM

@The Tellurian,

The entaire wing will be made out of the green foam. The weight is about 33Kg for eacht m^3.

The carbon strips, for the spar, are cut from the "plate" I made with the rovings.

@Pook, the rovings are laid up side by side. In the end it doesn't matter how they have been laid up. Fibers are all in one direction, there is no side strenght. You have to be carefull when you remove the just cured plate from the mylar.

@The Tellurian

Posting the .DXF as a zip-file is a good idea. How simple things can be.....

I will post the file when I like the templates. The first cuts failed. As said before I use to work with a 0.5mm cutting wire. My templates have never been thinner than .5mm to. Now the wire is 0.3 and the templates are 0.4mm. That didn't match yesterday evening. The problem was cutting the upper surface of the wing. The 0.3mm did not made the first few millimeters of the cut. The cuttingwire sticked ad the templates.

I will do some tests:
1) measure the cutted foil to check accuracy in profile thicknes
2) cut with the same templates and a 0.5mm wire. Then check thickness
3) depends on what point 1 and 2 will teach me, draw better templates and lasercut new ones from slightly thicker plate.

Nov 07, 2009, 11:32 AM	#34
Berrie Registered User Join Date: May 2006 Location: Schoonhoven, the Netherlands Posts: 101	I have the wing (foamblocks) templates and profile templates as a .DXF ready. Dennis wil cut the profile templates with a lasercutter. The wingtemplates will be cutted oxygen/acethyleen in 1" carbonsteel. I will use them as a weight during cutting the wing out of the foamblocks. (live is easy with al those CNC cutting stuff at our jobs...) I'm willing to attach the .DXF here in this thread. Sadly this forum doesn't like . DXF. Can anyone help? Is there interest? Last edited by Berrie; Nov 07, 2009 at 12:45 PM.

Nov 15, 2009, 07:22 AM	#40
Berrie Registered User Join Date: May 2006 Location: Schoonhoven, the Netherlands Posts: 101	So, here we have the first steps! I draw the Mini Zone and printed the view to see how the wing is gonna look. The weights are cut: I wasn't sure if it was necessary to cut 3 foamblocks for each wing, but I tought it could give a nice new challenge to cut a acurate wing tip. Therefore the 40mm span of the wingtip foamblock will give some extra attention to cut that. The foil templates need a little fine sanding before we can cut, but the profile looks very accurate to me: I try to follow up some advises that Phil and Gerald gave to attain better wingaccuracy in one of the Zone (profile) threads. One of their suggestions is using a thinner cutting wire. I use to cut with 0.5mm. With some 0.3mm wire in store I made me a new, smaller, cutting bow to cut with the 0.3mm wire. Will see if that works for me. The first Mini Zone wing will be a cheap version cause we don't have experience with glassed mini wings. Using the green foam (which I can get for free mostly cause it is waste from building houses), 54gram/m@2 glas and carbon sparcaps. During the build I will write down al the weights from the used parts. Test flying this wing will be done on a wooden Mimi fuselage. After that we will make lighter/better wings and a fiberfuselage. About the final tailfeathers we still don't have made a decision. back to building: I made a 0.4mm thick carbonplate from rovings. With double sticky tape a piece of mylar was taped on a piece of wood. With tape I made 0.5mm thick wall on the mylar. A piece of balsasheet, that fits between the tapewalls, was covered with cheap packing tape. (I like that tape a lot. Epoxy doesn't stick on that stuff.) The rovings were wetted carefully, bottom first, carefully hardroled in one directrion, heated with a haredryer and vaccuumbagged. This turned out very good in my opinion. I cut out 4 strips for this wing. 6mm at the root, 3mm at the tip, 0.4mm overall thicknes. The first 6 grams... Attached Thumbnails 76.1 KB · Views: 226 110.2 KB · Views: 221 88.0 KB · Views: 216 112.6 KB · Views: 219 87.6 KB · Views: 219 128.1 KB · Views: 225 Last edited by Berrie; Nov 15, 2009 at 09:03 AM.

Nov 16, 2009, 01:34 AM	#44
Pook Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Bolton,England Posts: 1,359	I'm sorting out parts at the moment to try to make my first steps towards cutting my own wings, so it's really great seeing how you are doing it....thanks for all the pictures! Just a quick question about the carbon plate, Is it laid up with the tow overlapping like bricks in a wall or side by side? I guess if its side by side then the strength comes from the rolling? A little drawing of a cross section to try to illustrate my question Thanks Piers Attached Thumbnails 8.9 KB · Views: 8

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Nov 06, 2009, 10:32 PM	#31
The Tellurian Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Toronto Canada Posts: 384	Thanks for to guidance Gerald! We get a 14 minute window in which to fly a 6 minute flight, spot land and return the Tx to the impound. The point about min sink performance being be more important than max L/D is probably true but it can be hard to see the little ones when they top out at or over a 1000'. My last effort was AG3 foil at 1.2 M based roughly on the Mimi wing. Inside panel was HL60 and outer Formular what ever is sold in the big box stores, carbon rods top and bottom but with a film covering. AUW was 185gm with spent motor, pod and pylon [40-45 gm no matter the size plane hence the desire to compensate with a bigger wing] I don't have any skills with XFLRS and must do things empirically so I shall build a 1.1, a 1.3 [Z46-Z36 as you suggest] and a 1.5 [2P] and see if I can try them all on the same day. The idea being that reportedly the 1.5s can stay up much longer than the 1 M in dead air. The test will be to see if the smaller wings extra altitude compensates for the duration of the larger wings. I can then with confidence go chase thermals. Thanks again. Richard

Nov 06, 2009, 10:57 PM	#32
muto Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Baltimore Posts: 39	Thanks for advice Gerald. I'll try for 1.2 m wing for my new RGDLG . Dimitre

Nov 06, 2009, 11:19 PM	#33
G_T Registered User Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 778	You guys will have to let me know how this all works out. I know I have received requests for wings around 1.2M before but I never really knew why. Now I know! Gerald

Nov 12, 2009, 06:49 PM	#35
GaryO Registered User Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Newport, Or, but travel in RV Posts: 2,146	Berrie, Wont the extra thick templates (1" steel) really cool the wire? Gary

Nov 12, 2009, 06:52 PM	#36
GaryO Registered User Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Newport, Or, but travel in RV Posts: 2,146	Gerald, Earlier you said: "If people are interested in a lower aspect ratio version of the Zone 2P wing I can create one. I'm certainly set up to do it." It's obvious that you are doing lots of other things. Do you have any idea when you might do this, or are things just too hectic? Gary

Nov 12, 2009, 07:11 PM	#37
G_T Registered User Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 778	Gary, The wing is basically done. If I last long enough tonight I'll see what I can do. Gerald

Nov 13, 2009, 02:50 PM	#39
Pook Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Bolton,England Posts: 1,359	Damn you economy...why must you mock us! :P

Nov 15, 2009, 11:25 AM	#41
GaryO Registered User Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Newport, Or, but travel in RV Posts: 2,146	Gerald, You said :" Gary, The wing is basically done. If I last long enough tonight I'll see what I can do. Gerald " Is that the one that is now posted on the 2P thread? Gary

Nov 15, 2009, 11:27 AM	#42
The Tellurian Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Toronto Canada Posts: 384	Hi Berrie Can you give me an idea of the density of that foam? The entire wing is the same foam and the carbon plate is to be the spar material, correct? BTW you can post the .dxf if they are in a .zip format. Interested in your build. Richard

Nov 15, 2009, 03:01 PM	#43
G_T Registered User Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 778	Gary, yes. Gerald

Nov 17, 2009, 06:59 AM	#45
Berrie Registered User Join Date: May 2006 Location: Schoonhoven, the Netherlands Posts: 101	@The Tellurian, The entaire wing will be made out of the green foam. The weight is about 33Kg for eacht m^3. The carbon strips, for the spar, are cut from the "plate" I made with the rovings. @Pook, the rovings are laid up side by side. In the end it doesn't matter how they have been laid up. Fibers are all in one direction, there is no side strenght. You have to be carefull when you remove the just cured plate from the mylar. @The Tellurian Posting the .DXF as a zip-file is a good idea. How simple things can be..... I will post the file when I like the templates. The first cuts failed. As said before I use to work with a 0.5mm cutting wire. My templates have never been thinner than .5mm to. Now the wire is 0.3 and the templates are 0.4mm. That didn't match yesterday evening. The problem was cutting the upper surface of the wing. The 0.3mm did not made the first few millimeters of the cut. The cuttingwire sticked ad the templates. I will do some tests: 1) measure the cutted foil to check accuracy in profile thicknes 2) cut with the same templates and a 0.5mm wire. Then check thickness 3) depends on what point 1 and 2 will teach me, draw better templates and lasercut new ones from slightly thicker plate.