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Old Dec 10, 2009, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightnin View Post
I've scaled back on my posting because the discussion has degraded into the warmers trying to play down the CRU debacle which is one of the most inane moves I have seen yet and, the thrust of the discussion has changed to "is too warming"/"is not warming". I know science, and the contents and implications of the emails and data leaked from CRU are huge. They would not be investigating these entities and researchers if there was nothing important in the leak. The really scary part of this is these were the leading scientists for global warming. Warmers say "but it represents very little of the consensus", au contraire mon frair. Scientist's around the world have based their research and findings on the temperature reconstructions of Mann et al. This means the "errors" or doctored data has been magnified exponentially. I've pointed this out before but the warmers like to gloss over it, I wonder why? You need look no further than the multiple temperature reconstruction or the spaghetti graph. And, let’s not forget we had multiple warnings about the malfeasance of this group from multiple sources including Mann's prior supervisor.
Once again actual scientists and science journals disagree with you. This fact has been pointed out to you and you continue to ignore it. Wonder why?
Here is why:
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/12/09/climategate-swift/


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightnin View Post
The main argument of the warmers continues to be that we are all in bed with big oil and gas; well we already debunked that so let’s move on from there.
Big oil and gas yes they are part of the massive campaign to counter AGW. Here is another part:

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/12/07/...tboat-science/
I guess only left wing money taints the debate though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightnin View Post
Secondarily warmers try to paint anyone who doesn't agree with them as conspiracy theory tin foil hat wearers citing some liberal final solution garbage, a distraction technique, a bad one at that and not relative to the discussion at hand.
Find a single gw thread that does not contain photoshoped images of Al Gore or the words to the effect of some sort of vast liberal money making conspiracy. Those "arguments" against AGW will continue to be mocked as they deserve to be. You get plenty of real discussion with links and graphs to other arguments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightnin View Post
Warmers like to throw out the idea that the scientists would have no reason to cook the books; you’re not that dumb, as Brett Baer said "PLEASE”. Notoriety, funding, influence, demand for your services, a place in the history books and all of the professional and personal perks than come along with them. People have killed for much less, I think we have established that they have a motive. Ergo they also have a motive to squash any attempt to reveal or shed light on any transgressions.
Motive does not equal evidence. I want more RC planes than I have money for. Am I to be under suspicion for bank robbery now because I have motive? Calling every AGW supporting scientist into doubt because of your list of motives is ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightnin View Post
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...MHiZ0JK3kzB4IA

So much for Sherlock's vocal minority theory.
The large sums of money being spent to cast doubt are having an affect. Notice that the majority sill thinks the planet is still warming and something should be done about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightnin View Post
My Objectivity says, just because the books were cooked does not mean that global warming could not exist but what it does say is the science is far form settled and the process of data collection and manipulation must be restructured and taken out of the hands of politicians and policy makers to remove the chance for an appearance of bias. Full disclosure and transparency must be enforced. This is fair and inline with good scientific practices. We are not there, so any perceived consensus is a political consensus and not scientifically based.
No one has done more than the right wing to make this a political issue. It has never been in the hands of politicians. They are acting on the scientific consensus. It is not "perceived" and it is not political. It spans the globe where many have no idea of the idealogical catfights we have over here. Where have you been insisting on full disclosure for the deniers? Your one sided bias is clear here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightnin View Post
I want to ask of you, just consider for a moment what would happen to the credibility of President Obama, Al Gore and many others if they were to admit that they jumped the gun. Even if you don't believe it consider it for a moment. This process will reveal the truth, they are not about to tell the truth if it means backing away from their position, their credibility would suffer too much. Are these the kinds of metrics we should be using to characterize a subject with carries the complexity and enormity of the consequences HCGW theory carries? hell no!
I will ask you to consider the same thing for the deniers. This "process" is hypothetical and will revel a hypothetical answer. We definately should not use your hypothetical metrics to characterize any subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightnin View Post
The politicians need to shut up and the scientists need to be allowed to sort the wheat from the chaff, this must be done by an inclusive international contingency not a handful of politically compromised cherry picked ideologues.
The global scientific community that supports AGW is not a "handful of politically compromised cherry picked ideologues". When I hear you insisting on the republican polls to shut up, maybe I will give you some credit. So far you have saved your indignation for Al Gore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightnin View Post
I digress, back on the politics of this deal. I'm trying to understand what the motivation is for warmers to ignore reality and insist on creating another system of control. OTOH I think that is what most people object to is the creation of yet another ambiguous draconian system of control. I guess the liberal mind is habituated to urbanized life and systems of control give them comfort. I couldn't disagree more myself.
Disagreeing with you is not ignoring "reality". Your theories about the liberal mind are right in line with the stereotypical drivel that we see here all the time. When you start with these ridiculous ideas about people in your mind, your desire to approach this debate in the scientific manor you claim to want rings hollow. Nothing new here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightnin View Post
But back to the title of the thread, it appears as though GW forgot to show up this winter, we have experienced wide spread record low temps, 1st snowfall dates and snowfall amounts. This is happening across the entire US which is much too large an event to be discarded as weather vs. climate.
Yes back to the part where you show us your ignorance by repeating one of my favorite ridiculous anti-GW "proofs". Winter is not gone! So much for global warming! Its cold somewhere! So much for global warming!!

How stupid am I!! There is snow outside my window and I still believe in GW! WOOOOOPSS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightnin View Post
This peaked my interest and I want to remind you of the Great Pacific Climate shift. This is a ~30 cycle and it involves the La Niña /El Niño phenomenon. The last shift was approx somewhere in the 1977-1979 time period so we are due to shift again. If you factor in that global temps have cooled in the last couple of years, and the change in weather patterns you get the sum of an equation that relates to its inputs quite nicely. We also know that the Great Pacific Climate shift has worldwide effects, as noted by the Australians in there research and the description of the related southern oscillation influence.
Why don't you do a scientific paper on this as it pertains to GW with the proper methods you insist on and publish it for peer review. What? You are not a scientist? So its just more noise then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightnin View Post
The latest declaration by the EPA is the most ridiculous thing I have seen in memory. CO2 is critical to our existence on this planet. The claims by skeptics that it will dramatically increase plant growth are overstated but the premise originally came from is sound scientific knowledge. However, the claims of impeding doom from CO2 are preposterous. OTOH if the EPA steps in and starts slapping down regulations the science of GW will be put on trial due to law suits which will be a good thing. So that may yet be another way we can get to the bottom of this.
It is ridiculous to you because you cannot grasp the fact that just because plants like it and we exhale it, does not mean it cannot be harmful in large quantities. It is preposterous to you because you cannot understand that flouride put in many cities water supply in very small quantities is good for your teeth but is harmful at larger concentrations. If you understood this analogy you would not find it preposterous. You might not agree with it but you would not think its preposterous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightnin View Post
The response from the warmers on this board has been typical and lately has become completely pathetic.
As has the response from the deniers. So what.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightnin View Post
Denver, Co. Denver has already had a much colder winter than they have had in many years with much more snow. What is interesting is they are having lots of problems with frozen water pipes. Also interesting are the homes built prior to 1980's all had the pipes buried much deeper to avoid this problem. As the climate warmed the builders saved money by burying pipes shallower than before. Now that the winter storms have intensified again we are finding out that our short sighted human notions are once again not followed by Mother Nature.
Here we go again! The information on GW shows that the increase in the average tempratures will make places with droughts dryer, the places with rain wetter. Leading to larger floods in the flood plains, more blizzards in snow country ect. It does not mean it will be hot everywhere. Do you even know what the theories are that you spend so much time railing against? Aparently not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightnin View Post
So I'll leave you to make up your own minds, but I believe if the planet had a soul it would be laughing at the silly humans over the HCGW theory. And, I suspect it will continue to teach us lessons as long as we inhabit this planet.
Yes it will be teaching us a very bad lesson in the form of severe consequences from AGW. But you are of course free to make up your own mind.

You spend a lot of time around here talking about methods and science. You constantly challenge methods and science of warmers but have little to say about questionable methods and science and funding of deniers. You are just and idealogue trying to pass yourself of as some kind of science pure skeptic. Your rants about the "liberal'' mindset and "habituation" give you away.
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