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Old Dec 28, 2008, 06:57 AM
DaOldGuy is offline
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Infineon Builder FAQ

FAQ
Here is a FAQ for Infineon Related planes. Many things can be done in many different ways, these items are not always going to fit every build. This is not something I have "wrote the rules" on, more just gathered information rounded up in one place from a very large and popular thread. Please let me know if you would like to see something added.

Before you start, remember when printing "Tiled" PDF files, make sure the print setting reflect "1 to 1" and "Page Scaling" is set to none. Not using these setting will create a slightly reduced Infineon and some of the tiled sheets may not align properly.


1) Center Of Gravity <basic settings>

Infineon Indoor Version 32 inch Wing Span = 2.5 inches from Leading Edge of lower <bottom> wing at the root.

I3D Outdoor Version 34 inch Wing Span = 2.5 inches from Leading Edge of lower <bottom> wing at the root.

Mini Infineon 26 inch Wing Span = 1.75 inches from Leading Edge of lower <bottom> wing at the root.

Your mileage may vary, for 3D action some like to move the CG back slightly, for maiden flights and newbie flyers it is always best to start out with the basic settings.

NOTE: Remember to test your CG before you mount you Tail Servos, you can use their placement to help you get your CoG dialed in.

2) What is the Difference between the Infineon and the I3D

The original "Infineon" was a light weight Indoor version. Thinner EPP foam, squared Leading edges on the wings and average control surfaces. It was idea to be in the 7ish ounce area. This was a 32 inch WS. 309.74 sq.in.

The I3D <Infineon 3D> was more an Outdoor version with a little more weight to handle a "breeze" and rougher conditions. Ideally it was a 9ish ounce plane with thicker EPP, more doubles, and had larger 3D control surfaces. This was a 34 inch WS. 471.52 sq.in.

Here are a couple reference pictures.

MrFlash Infineon Picture
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attac...mentid=2154347
MrFlash Infineon 3D Picture <I3D>
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attac...mentid=2155342

3) What is the difference in the Mini Infineon?

The Mini Infineon was first built by Firetrappe, it was a Smaller and Faster scaled version of the original Infineon. The same could be done with the I3D. The Mini Infineon has a 26 inch WS <250 sq. in.> verses the 32 inch. There was also a few Micro Infineons built that were an 18 inch WS as well as several nano version. Picture for reference;

Firetrappe's Full Size and Mini Infineon
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attac...mentid=2154397

4) Not All EPP is alike.

a) EPP foam comes in 1.3# and 1.9# <most common> Densities. There are 2 differences in these products you should be aware of.
1.3# is softer and less rigid; the cells tend to have more space between them making it a little more translucent, it is lighter in weight, and often requires more carbon fiber in areas needing to provide support, such as wings/
1.9# is stiff and more rigid, the cells are tighter packed together and is heavier then the 1.3#. It can be argued that depending on the build, the 2 weight differences can sometimes cancel each other out depending on the amount of Caron Fiber need or not needed.

b) Some EPP comes in Colors; this typically will increase the weight as well.

c) Some EPP is “Saw Cut” and some is “Hotwire Cut”. There is a large difference in these 2 types of slicing. Saw cut simply removes a blade with of material from the foam and discards it. Hotwire cut melts the foam as it slices, the material melted, wicks back into the surface of the foam. This can drastically increase the weight of the foam, depending on the efficiency of the cutting table.

The hotwire cut will typically have a thin shell or hardness to the outer skin. This does make the foam more rigid and sometimes an easier surface to paint. Hotwire cut EPP does not always allow tape hinges to stick very well.


5) Not all EPP venders are alike.
Venders don't always offer the same thicknesses of EPP, some cut as small as 3mm, others only go as low as 4mm. Common sizes are 3,4,5,6,9,10mm.

Some venders saw cut 1.3# but their 1.9# only comes as hotwire cut due to saw restrictions.

EPP also comes in Colors from some suppliers; this also adds weight to the product.

I have personally seen orders of foam for 6 pieces of 3mm and not a one piece matches the other for thickness, which can be a problem when building. I have further seen 1 piece of EPP have several different thicknesses in a single sheet; this can also make building correctly an issue.

Ask the questions when ordering, to understand what you will be receiving. Don't be afraid when ordering to request consistent cuts, or contact the vendor if your order is out of specs. They all want happy customers bragging about their products on RCG!

I don’t wish to forget builds being done with Dupron, FFF, Foam board, and other products; they seem to come a little more consistent. A note on FFF, it has thickness waves in it, any time you are cutting out wings and structured parts, remember to try to cut with the wave, in a thicker part. Wing panels cut out “crossing” the wave, end up very weak.

Venders of EPP Foams <as well as other foams. I will be adding more as I get them.
US Based
www.rcfoam.com
www.flyingfoam.com
www.rcskyfler.com

UK Based <mostly wotwire cut>
http://www.brchobbies.co.uk/
http://robotbirds.co.uk/
http://www.flyingwings.co.uk/
http://www.epp-versand.de/
http://www.eppfoam.co.uk/
http://www.puffinmodels.com/
http://www.stevewebb.co.uk/
http://www.westlondonmodels.com/
http://www.sussex-model-centre.co.uk/

http://www.epp-versand.de/ (Germany)

6) What kind of Glue should be used with EPP Foam?
There are many choices of glue that can be used with EPP foam since it does not melt as easy as Dupron, FFF, or EPS. <styro>
Welder, Wal Mart Paint Section
UHU Por, On Line Purchase
House Hold Goop, Wal Mart Paint Section


These products are very flexable which is important with EPP. They should always be applied very light to avoid weight build up.

7) How much Carbon Fiber is needed to build with EPP?
Mostly Carbon Fiber Strips are needed for the Infineon Class Foamies. 3mm X 0.5mm Strips go all the way around both wings, around the Horizontal Stab, in the Wing Struts and Centre Cabane.
2mm CF Tubing is used for the Centre Crutch, Wing X Braces, and Landing Gear. Some strips can be used around hatch opening to keep them rigid, and other locations to the builds choices of needs. It is a good idea to measure out all your needs and buy an extra for those "oops" cuts.

8) What is some common used hardware and accessories?
These are "examples only" and can be purchased at you favorite supplier.
DU-BRO Micro Pushrod System 20 inch.
http://www.rcfoam.com/cart.php?targe...ategory_id=101
DU-BRO Micro Pushrod System 30 inch.
http://www.rcfoam.com/cart.php?targe...ategory_id=101
DU-BRO Micro Servo Arm XL---------- Validate Servo specific
http://www.rcfoam.com/cart.php?targe...ategory_id=101
Micro Control Horn- Narrow
http://www.rcfoam.com/cart.php?targe...ategory_id=101
DU-BRO Micro Razor Control Horn
http://www.rcfoam.com/cart.php?targe...ategory_id=101
Blenderm Tape for Hinges
http://www.rcfoam.com/cart.php?targe...category_id=99
GLX Carbon Fiber Strip 3mmX.5mmX1000mm or (.118" x.020" x 39") in inches.
http://www.rcfoam.com/cart.php?targe...category_id=96
GLX Carbon Fiber Tube Tube 2.0mm x 1mm x 1000mm (.079" x .039" x 39") Wing Struts and Landing Gear.
http://www.rcfoam.com/cart.php?targe...category_id=94
EPP Foam
http://www.rcfoam.com/cart.php?targe...category_id=76

Spinner <40mm> for the Axi Radial Mount 2208/34
http://www.aircraft-world.com/shopexd.asp?id=4304


9) So you want to paint your Infineon?

It is very important to remember that some paints eat some foam!

With EPP, I have not seen any signs of paint affecting it. There are several products being used to paint EPP.

a) Sharpie Markers other wise known as "Adult Crayons" This works very well, but can get old quick if you are doing a lot of coverage. Another issue I seem to have was after it had set for several weeks, it would still transfer to my fingers. Then of course you then touch the unpainted areas, well, not good. I found a VERY light dusting of WalMart Spray can clear would seal it up.

b) Water based spray can products like H2O from Krylon. They are even safe for other types of foams.

c) Water Based Airbrush Paints as shown on this VERY COOL video done by adreher on this thread, very good information, tips and Tricks.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=985105

d) With the same methods as c), I use PPG Automotive Base Cote. It is very thin and light, is very flexable and sticks very well. Body Shops typically have to pay to get rid of left over paints, so if you know someone in the biz, they may keep you in paint for a good while.

With 15 years of Automotive paint and body repair behind me, listen when I say "Only Paint In A WELL Ventilated Area".. Always wear gloves and eye protection.

Water Slide Decals
Also there are printable graphix for the Infineon in the original Build Thread
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=14

10) Hinging your Control Surfaces
Blenderm Tape, as outlined in the build log, is one of the best solutions I have used. Some builders have used the DU-Bro Micro hinges depending on the application, not aways a good fit for thinner EPP panels. Another hinge solution that is getting popular is the Welder Glue Hinge. The same method was also used with HotGlue, however in some case the low temp glue would get brittle and stiff in cold, and come loose in high heat or direct sun light. Here is a link to a Welder Hinge Video. This has had promising results.http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=376
I would bet House Hold Goop could be used the same way. <Update> I got about a year out of my Welder hinges, I can not say it was a good long term hinge for thin EPP, 9mm prolly better.

Update...Time has told me the Welder hinges seem to work better with thicker EPP product 9mm and such. The thinner EPP has more flex in some cases then the glue hinge.

11) Hinge Linkage between the Ailerons

There are many ways to do this, the last time I did them I used Indoorheli's CF and Heat Shrink trick.

Insert scrap 3mmX.5mm CF flat into the TE, leaving enough out to put Heat Shrink on. Use a 2mm CF Tube to go between them. Caution, when heating, try not to get any heat on the part of the heat shrink that will be the 45 degree hinge part. See picture at the below link.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=6199

12) Figuring Power Requirements, in General terms. Provided by www.neodymmotors.com

One of the biggest questions asked is "What Motor, ESC, and Lipo does the build require?"
This is a Moving Target, depending on many things, the biggest being your end weight <AUW>. Different Foams, Servos, Lipo, motor, and even the type and amount of glue can affect the end result.
In the post prior to this, we are building a record of builders "Build Statistic" to give examples to maybe help you get a better idea where your build may fall.

• Watts = Volts x Amps • 1 pound = 16 ounces = 454 grams • 1 Horsepower ≡ 746 Watts
1. Determine your model’s gross flying weight. (Example: 27oz)
2. Identify your flying style for your model, (Example: 3D style flying)
3. Calculate your model’s power or Watts requirement using the above base chart. (Example: 27oz 3D type of model requirement = (27 / 16) x 150) = 253.125 Watts or approximately 253 Watts)
3. Identify which NEO motor you will need. (Example: Need 253 W => NEO-480, because it is under the 280W)
4. Determine which kv motor within your power range is better for your usage. (Example: In this case you may prefer 900kv or 1,000kv to 1120kv because you have a 3D type of model. In general, lower kv, rpm per volt, motor generally will have greater torque than a higher kv motor of equal size. )
5. Select ESC: (Example: Calculate the approximate current draw using Watts = Volts x Amps formula, 22.8A = 253W / 11.1V. Now we have estimated that your motor will draw an average of 22.8Amp in a static situation. In this particular case we would choose the next higher Amp ESC such as a continuous 25A ESC or greater for a better margin of error.)
6. Select battery: (Example: your LiPo selection would be a little more difficult, because you will need to consider balancing. However, keeping most information intact, you will require the LiPo battery to be able to discharge at an average of 22.8Amp or better. Therefore a 2100mah LiPo with 25C (continuous discharge) will be fine because 25C rating on a 2100mah = 25 x (2100/1000) = 52.5Amp continuous draw. A 1320mah with 20C = 20 x (1320/1000) = 26.4A, which is also fine, because it is above 22.8Amp requirement. However a 15C rated 1320 pack will not be sufficient, because your motor’s max current demand exceeds the battery pack’s 19.8A continuous discharge ability.)
7. Estimate minimum static run time: (Example: You selection at this point will depend on weight balancing and run time. 2100mah provides a minimum run time at full power of 5.5 minutes = (2100 / (22.8 x 1000)) * 60. 1320mah provides a minimum run time at full power of 3.5 minutes = (13200 / (22.8 x 1000)) * 60.)



Mini= 250.00 sq in
Infineon Indoor= 390.74 sq in
I3D Outdoor= 471.52 sq in

More to come......
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Last edited by DaOldGuy; Feb 27, 2010 at 05:51 AM.
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