RC Groups - Life, The Universe, and Politics

Question True cost of health care?

Treetop — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 08:20:39 GMT

So, I get my first statement from my insurance company for an office visit with minor "surgery". The bill was for $100 for office visit and exam and $650 for the surgery. I paid a $30 copay. The insurance company paid the doctor, who is in their network, $180. So he got $210 out of the deal, while billing $750.

This is the doctor I asked about "what if" I didn't have H. insurance, he tells me $200 if paying using cash or credit card.

What is up with this?

I go to CVS with no insurance, and get two generics one they say is $43, the other is $26, then they tell me I qualify for a discount on the $43 and they will sell it to me for $23. I used to pay for both $24 and the insurance paid them $2 each. That is $26 CVS gets paid if I buy using insurance. $49 if I buy without insurance. The drug store charges me more, simply because I don't have insurance than they charge me and the insurance company together.

One of the generics above is not covered by my new insurance company, it is the one that was $23, but I get it refilled and since I have insurance, even though they don't cover this drug, the drug store charges me $9. :eek: This is not a mistake, this script has been filled twice.

And no, neither of these drugs are on the "$4 generic" list at Walmart or Target.

I posted the "drug refill from hell" rant post in another thread, if you care to read about this sort of thing, it is a separate issue from the above:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...0&postcount=54

Discussion Falling Down The Stairs

Real Ira — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 06:26:12 GMT

This is known in polling circles as "falling down the stairs."

Questions:

1. Why is this happening?
The right wing media bias perhaps? (we all know the worm can turn)

2. Policies out of touch with what most Americans want?

3. Polls are incorrect. All is swell?

Could one of you guys shop Homer Simpson onto this graph for me?

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Discussion AirVenture 09

dll932 — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 04:52:51 GMT

http://www.flixxy.com/airventure-2009-flying.htm

Discussion Beriev's at it again

dll932 — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 04:52:19 GMT

http://www.flixxy.com/beriev-be-200-...s-aircraft.htm

At least SOMEBODY's still making seaplanes.

Rant Mag Chloride -- If your city uses this stuff...BEWARE!

Garret H — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 03:10:42 GMT

I have to post this because I am quite angry :mad: :D and want to alert others to this:

I own a 1993 Honda Del Sol with factory-original alloy wheels. I have owned this car for several years now; about two years ago, I bought the wheels from a company in California (they are stock rims). When I got the rims from sunny SoCal, they were spotless and shiny. Immediately after installing them (in the middle of winter), I noticed water spots starting to form, mainly after I washed the car off. I didn't think much about it because I could polish the water spots off with a little "Eagle One" mag wheel polish. Lately, the "film" has been getting even worse and I cannot polish all of it out -- there is a permanent "cloudy haze" around the edges. Frustrated with the polish, I went to the auto parts store and asked the knowledgable gentleman what else would work to take this stuff off. Basically, I was told that there was nothing I could do! THE MAGNESIUM CHLORIDE THAT MY CITY USES TO MELT THE SNOW OFF OUR ROADS IS EATING AWAY AT THE CLEAR COAT! He said my wheels are pretty much ruined for life now, unless I want to sand the wheels down an re-clear coat them (which is nearly impossible)! He told me that he just spent $1600 on brand new rims for his truck and is already seeing this same cloudiness forming! I cannot believe that this substance has completely destroyed my nice wheels!

If your town uses Mag Chloride on its streets, make sure that you wash your alloy wheels off after driving on streets after it snows. If your town still uses salt, but wants to change to using this stuff: fight it! It is aweful and will eat away at lots of stuff on your car -- especially floor mats!

Garret

Help! Obama Targets "DANGEROUS" Palin

FL Knifemaker — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 02:25:29 GMT

You KNEW it would happen soon.............

http://blogs.abcnews.com/george/2009...ous-palin.html

Right now, Sarah Palin is on a highly publicized, nationwide book tour, attacking President Obama and his plan for health reform at every turn..........

I just want everyone to know that this is nothing fear based. Palin is just a dolt who cannot possibly be taken seriously. The money is being raised to send the GOP condolence cards.

Cool New Trailer

Gerald — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 23:35:08 GMT

My baby girl's got a new trailer out:

http://www.vimeo.com/7696751

Looks like it might be kind of cool.

Discussion Sentimental Value anyone?

Accu157 — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 21:52:01 GMT

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8371521.stm

Egh. I don't get people from the past. Maybe there will be some sort of genetic value, but I just don't get cutting off a finger and placing it in a pretty jar.

Discussion Good by Harry :)

realtimerecon — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 21:46:05 GMT

And don't let the door hit you on the way out :)
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...da_senate_race

Discussion Limbaugh and Coulter and Beck, Oh My!

MtnGoat — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 20:46:24 GMT

Klavan spells it out...

Andrew Klavan: Limbaugh and Coulter and Beck, Oh My! (4 min 23 sec)

Discussion More ACORN releases

MtnGoat — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 20:40:39 GMT

Well, obviously not from ACORN itself..but from the folks simply letting ACORN employees tell how it is.

Quote:

Lavelle Stewart, of ACORN in South Central Los Angeles, tells us she thinks we have to hook up with �someone who�s on that international sex business level,� that �14 and 15 year olds been traveling overseas for years,� that she can do independent research for us, and that she has had meetings with P*rn magnate Larry Flynt. As for laundering the sex money into my faux political campaign, Lavelle says, �there are ways, people do it all the time. Yeah there are ways, especially out here in California.�

ACORN: LA Story Program for Torture Victims Part I (10 min 32 sec)

ACORN: LA Story Program for Torture Victims Part 2 (4 min 56 sec)

http://biggovernment.com/2009/11/19/...rture-victims/

Yippee! The conspiracy behind the Anthropogenic Global Warming myth exposed after hacker get

treehog — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 20:39:43 GMT

The conspiracy behind the Anthropogenic Global Warming myth exposed after hacker gets proof the AGW lied to invent the AGW story

If you own any shares in alternative energy companies I should start dumping them NOW.
The conspiracy behind the Anthropogenic Global Warming myth (aka AGW; ) has been suddenly, brutally and quite deliciously exposed after a hacker broke into the computers at the University of East Anglia�s Climate Research Unit (aka Hadley CRU) and released 61 megabites of confidential files onto the internet.

(Hat tip: Watts Up With That )

When you read some of those files � including 1079 emails and 72 documents � you realise just why the boffins at Hadley CRU might have preferred to keep them confidential.
As Andrew Bolt puts it, this scandal could well be �the greatest in modern science�. These alleged emails � supposedly exchanged by some of the most prominent scientists pushing AGW theory � suggest:

Conspiracy, collusion in exaggerating warming data, possibly illegal
destruction of embarrassing information, organised resistance to
disclosure, manipulation of data, private admissions of flaws in
their public claims and much more.

One of the alleged emails has a gentle gloat over the death in 2004 of John L Daly (one of the first climate change sceptics, founder of the Still Waiting For Greenhouse site),
commenting:

�In an odd way this is cheering news.�

But perhaps the most damaging revelations � the scientific equivalent of the Telegraph�s MPs� expenses scandal � are those concerning the way Warmist scientists may variously have manipulated or suppressed evidence in order to support their cause.

Here are a few tasters. (So far, we can only refer to them as alleged emails because � though Hadley CRU�s director Phil Jones has confirmed the break-in to Ian Wishart at the Briefing Room

� he has yet to fess up to any specific contents.) But if genuine, they suggest dubious practices such as:
*Manipulation of evidence:*

I�ve just completed Mike�s Nature trick of adding in the real temps
to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd from
1961 for Keith�s to hide the decline.

*Private doubts about whether the world really is heating up:*

The fact is that we can�t account for the lack of warming at the
moment and it is a travesty that we can�t. The CERES data published
in the August BAMS 09 supplement on 2008 shows there should be even
more warming: but the data are surely wrong. Our observing system is
inadequate.

*Suppression of evidence:*

Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4?
Keith will do likewise. He�s not in at the moment � minor family crisis.
Can you also email Gene and get him to do the same? I don�t have his
new email address.
We will be getting Caspar to do likewise.

*Fantasies of violence against prominent Climate Sceptic scientists:*

Next
time I see Pat Michaels at a scientific meeting, I�ll be tempted to beat
the crap out of him. Very tempted.

*Attempts to disguise the inconvenient truth of the Medieval Warm Period (MWP*):

/��Phil and I have recently submitted a paper using about a dozen NH
records that fit this category, and many of which are available
nearly 2K back�I think that trying to adopt a timeframe of 2K,
rather than the usual 1K, addresses a good earlier point that Peck
made w/ regard to the memo, that it would be nice to try to
�contain� the putative �MWP�, even if we don�t yet have a
hemispheric mean reconstruction available that far back�./

And, perhaps most reprehensibly, a long series of communications discussing *how best to squeeze dissenting scientists out of the peer review process*. How, in other words, to create a scientific climate in which anyone who disagrees with AGW can be written off as a crank, whose views do not have a scrap of authority.

�This was the danger of always criticising the skeptics for not
publishing in the �peer-reviewed literature�. Obviously, they found
a solution to that�take over a journal! So what do we do about this?
I think we have to stop considering �Climate Research� as a
legitimate peer-reviewed journal. Perhaps we should encourage our
colleagues in the climate research community to no longer submit to,
or cite papers in, this journal. We would also need to consider what
we tell or request of our more reasonable colleagues who currently
sit on the editorial board�What do others think?�
�I will be emailing the journal to tell them I�m having nothing more
to do with it until they rid themselves of this troublesome
editor.��It results from this journal having a number of editors.
The responsible one for this is a well-known skeptic in NZ. He has
let a few papers through by Michaels and Gray in the past. I�ve had
words with Hans von Storch about this, but got nowhere. Another
thing to discuss in Nice !�

Hadley CRU has form in this regard
.

In September � I wrote the story up here as �How the global warming industry is based on a massive lie� � Hadley CRU�s researchers were exposed as having �cherry-picked� data in order to support their untrue claim that global temperatures had risen higher at the end of the 20th century than at any time in the last millenium. Hadley CRU was also the organisation which � in contravention of all acceptable behaviour in the international scientific community � spent years withholding data from researchers it deemed unhelpful to its cause.

This matters because Hadley CRU, established in 1990 by the Met Office, is a government-funded body which is supposed to be a model of rectitude.

Its HadCrut record is one of the four official sources of global temperature data used by the IPCC.

I asked in my title whether this will be the final nail in the coffin of Anthropenic Global Warming. This was wishful thinking, of course. In the run up to Copenhagen, we will see more and more hysterical (and grotesquely exaggerated) stories such as this

in the Mainstream Media.

And we will see ever-more-virulent campaigns conducted by eco-fascist activists, such as this risible new advertising campaign by Plane Stupid showing CGI polar bears falling from the sky and exploding

because kind of, like, man, that�s sort of what happens whenever you take another trip on an aeroplane.

The world is currently cooling; electorates are increasingly reluctant to support eco-policies leading to more oppressive regulation, higher taxes and higher utility bills; the tide is turning against Al Gore�s Anthropogenic Global Warming theory.

The so-called �sceptical� view is now also the majority view.

Unfortunately, we�ve a long, long way to go before the public mood (and scientific truth) is reflected by our policy makers. There are too many vested interests in AGW, with far too much to lose either in terms of reputation or money, for this to end without a bitter fight.

But if the Hadley CRU scandal is true,it�s a blow to the AGW lobby�s credibility which is never likely to recover.

Source http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ja...lobal-warming/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...-leaked-emails

Enjoy

Ralf

News Flapping wing technology....

Pudknocker71 — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:37:55 GMT

Found this to be of interst.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...-aircraft.html

Discussion UBC - Ugly By Choice

upandown2 — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:37:15 GMT

While attending college in the 80's we use to think it was cool to just have your ear pierced?

but this? Why?

Ear Stretching Tips Part 1 (5 min 41 sec)

Discussion The rule of law applies to politicians as well...

Norman Adlam — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:44:55 GMT

Looks like the UK government has lost it's sixth attempt at playing keeping secrets.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...est?CMP=AFCYAH

Alert Classic Amazon

leccyflyer — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 09:48:29 GMT

Just seen this

http://www.amazon.com/Mobile-Office-...ef=cm_cmu_pg_t

A mobile desk that you attach to the steering wheel of your car, to support your laptop, available on Amazon.

However, the customer photo uploads, which would normally be used to show images of the product in use by satisfied punters, ended up carrying a rather different message :cool:

Discussion Show no weakness...

FrogChief — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 08:00:20 GMT

Not trying to be an attention whore. But I could honestly use some prayers in whatever faith you subscribe to. Things aren't optimal right now and several other major things have gone horrifically wrong in the last week...

Irregardless of my deal specifically, be sure to remember those for whom life isn't exactly going to plan...

Take Care,

-FC

Discussion Senate Health Care Bill and the Bribe

Big Foot 48 — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 02:53:04 GMT

The Senate is set to vote on the just revealed 2,000 page health care bill on Saturday night, just two days away.

How much does it cost to buy a Senator vote? $100 Million

Quote:

ABC News' Jonathan Karl reports:

What does it take to get a wavering senator to vote for health care reform?

Here’s a case study.

On page 432 of the Reid bill, there is a section increasing federal Medicaid subsidies for “certain states recovering from a major disaster.”

The section spends two pages defining which “states” would qualify, saying, among other things, that it would be states that “during the preceding 7 fiscal years” have been declared a “major disaster area.”
I am told the section applies to exactly one state: Louisiana, the home of moderate Democrat Mary Landrieu, who has been playing hard to get on the health care bill.

In other words, the bill spends two pages describing would could be written with a single world: Louisiana. (This may also help explain why the bill is long.)

Senator Harry Reid, who drafted the bill, cannot pass it without the support of Louisiana’s Mary Landrieu.

How much does it cost? According to the Congressional Budget Office: $100 million.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/200...care-vote.html

BTW, there was a similar $100M bribe in the House bill for a CA rep. These are all Democrats, btw.

Call and write your Senator - tell them to vote NO!

Discussion For that MiG 3 model

dll932 — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 01:55:14 GMT

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Russian-Ign...item4cec0debef

Alert Have you called your representives

realtimerecon — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 22:59:15 GMT

A vote is about to be cast on the health care package.
As we all know it consists of some 2,000 pages.
Not ONE politician has read what's in it.
Do you believe those 2,000 pages pertain to health care related issues,ONLY ?
No one knows.....If you have children,and are concerned about their future ,call your Senator , NOW.
And may God be with us..all..RTR

Discussion Jesse Jackson: You Cant Vote Against Health Care and Call Yourself Black

FL Knifemaker — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 22:37:18 GMT

Ruh ROH!! Out comes the race card again :rolleyes: Interesing concepty by JJ :eek:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...g-health-care/

Discussion Xmas shopping is officially done

Buran — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 22:33:45 GMT

I�m proud of myself today as I finished my xmas shopping.

I got my son a Gibson Studio Robot (those tuners are soo cool) and a big azz boombox. He probably figures he�s getting the boombox even though I told him no, I didn�t want to listen to the thing, but he knows nothing about the guitar. Last year I got him a ES-135 and he about fainted :D

I got my wife a Gucci ourse; she going to wet her pants :D

Discussion Climatologists Baffled by Global Warming Time-Out

MtnGoat — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:27:52 GMT

Inconvenient truths. Definitely not politically convenient, but this is what happens when you go all in on 'consensus' defining reality.

You get burned.

Quote:

Reached a Plateau

The planet's temperature curve rose sharply for almost 30 years, as global temperatures increased by an average of 0.7 degrees Celsius (1.25 degrees Fahrenheit) from the 1970s to the late 1990s. "At present, however, the warming is taking a break," confirms meteorologist Mojib Latif of the Leibniz Institute of Marine Sciences in the northern German city of Kiel. Latif, one of Germany's best-known climatologists, says that the temperature curve has reached a plateau. "There can be no argument about that," he says. "We have to face that fact."

Even though the temperature standstill probably has no effect on the long-term warming trend, it does raise doubts about the predictive value of climate models, and it is also a political issue. For months, climate change skeptics have been gloating over the findings on their Internet forums. This has prompted many a climatologist to treat the temperature data in public with a sense of shame, thereby damaging their own credibility.

"It cannot be denied that this is one of the hottest issues in the scientific community," says Jochem Marotzke, director of the Max Planck Institute for Meteorology in Hamburg. "We don't really know why this stagnation is taking place at this point."

Just a few weeks ago, Britain's Hadley Centre for Climate Prediction and Research added more fuel to the fire with its latest calculations of global average temperatures. According to the Hadley figures, the world grew warmer by 0.07 degrees Celsius from 1999 to 2008 and not by the 0.2 degrees Celsius assumed by the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. And, say the British experts, when their figure is adjusted for two naturally occurring climate phenomena, El Ni�o and La Ni�a, the resulting temperature trend is reduced to 0.0 degrees Celsius -- in other words, a standstill.

The differences among individual regions of the world are considerable. In the Arctic, for example, temperatures rose by almost three degrees Celsius, which led to a dramatic melting of sea ice. At the same time, temperatures declined in large areas of North America, the western Pacific and the Arabian Peninsula. Europe, including Germany, remains slightly in positive warming territory.

Mixed Messages

But a few scientists simply refuse to believe the British calculations. "Warming has continued in the last few years," says Stefan Rahmstorf of the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research (PIK). However, Rahmstorf is more or less alone in his view. Hamburg Max Planck Institute scientist Jochem Marotzke, on the other hand, says: "I hardly know any colleagues who would deny that it hasn't gotten warmer in recent years."

The controversy sends confusing and mixed messages to the lay public. Why is there such a vigorous debate over climate change, even though it isn't getting warmer at the moment? And how can it be that scientists cannot even arrive at a consensus on changes in temperatures, even though temperatures are constantly being measured?

those danged deniers at Der Spiegel and the know nothing right wingers at the Max Planck institute

Discussion Out with Mao admirer, in with her husband...who wanted McCain investigated

MtnGoat — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:22:08 GMT

And for what?

Why, for 'partisan' politics intend to 'suppress voters'.

Quote:

Bob Bauer, the husband of Anita “My Favorite Political Philosopher Is Mao” Dunn, has been appointed as the new White House counsel. I know Bob, and on an everyday level he is a polite gentleman with a great family history. But he is not someone you want to face on the other side of a court case or a political battle because he is a fierce partisan who does not believe in taking prisoners.

No one should forget that it was Bauer, as the general counsel for the Obama presidential campaign, who wrote a letter to the Justice Department on October 17, 2008, asking that a special prosecutor investigate Republicans like John McCain for talking publicly about voter fraud. According to Bauer, such talk was not only evidence of a “partisan political agenda,” but supposedly intended to “suppress voting” by harassing voters and impeding “their exercise of their rights.”

The spurious claims made in the letter were pretty outrageous at the time, but what is even scarier is that we now have a White House counsel who has asserted that anyone who talks about voter fraud, including the type of massive voter-registration fraud committed by ACORN, should be investigated and prosecuted by the Justice Department for voter intimidation. Under normal circumstances, one could be pretty confident that the attorney general would dismiss such ridiculous claims.

But given the serious concerns about the politicalization of the Justice Department under Eric Holder, perhaps we should all be worried that the prosecutorial power of the Justice Department will be used against members of the opposition political party on this issue. Since I write about voter fraud fairly often, I guess I should be on the lookout for that grand-jury indictment or a call from the FBI.

You can't do any better than simply watching who Obama wants on his team..

Go on, defend him too! You know you have to...you're all in.

Discussion NICE - Drug too expensive.

MtnGoat — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:18:30 GMT

So, in order to save money, you will die sooner.

It's only life, and it's almost up. State says...too much for too little.

Quote:

The health watchdog has blocked a critical liver cancer drug, saying it is too pricey for the state health service, leaving manufacturer Bayer vowing to appeal the decision. Skip related content

Most people who get the aggressive form of cancer are diagnosed too late for surgery to help, meaning that the drug -- Nexavar -- is one of the only options left, and it has been shown to prolong life by almost four months on average.

The decision, announced on Thursday, is a setback for Germany's Bayer and its partner Onyx Pharmaceuticals, which have already seen Nexavar turned down by the National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) to treat kidney cancer.

NICE said in the final draft recommendation it would not recommend Bayer's Nexavar to the National Health Service (NHS) for the most common type of liver cancer as it was too expensive, even though it is available in France, Germany, Spain, Italy and Romania.

The recommendation follows an earlier first draft recommendation to the same effect and means that the consultations have now closed and the only way for companies and patient groups to fight the decision is to appeal.

The about 2,900 pounds per month drug, also known as sorafenib, would cost about 8,300 pounds per patient as it keeps them alive for just under four extra months on average, and Bayer has offered to give every fourth pack for free.

"The price being asked by Bayer is simply too high to justify using NHS money which could be spent on better value cancer treatments," said NICE Chief Executive Andrew Dillon in a statement.

NICE refuses to fund cancer drug shown to extend life

Discussion Fox News again accused of airing misleading video

SchiessCo — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 20:51:49 GMT

Might be time for Fox to review their newsroom filling protocol. They're sure getting caught making mistakes these days...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_ts988

Discussion Fire up the Obama Bus Again

FL Knifemaker — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 20:50:12 GMT

Time to toss Geithner under it............

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/economy/story/79183.html

I watched some of this. It must have sucked to be Tim yesterday and today. Future reference for PBO. If a guy can't figure out Turbo Tax, chances are he might not have a grasp of much larger issues :rolleyes:

Instead of 40%, he pays back his cronies at 100%. Even ACORN knows how to work with with creditors if he'd asked them, LOL!!!

http://seekingalpha.com/instablog/41...olding-the-bag

Discussion Criminalizing Health Care Freedom

MtnGoat — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 20:20:42 GMT

No, not the kind of 'freedom' the left thinks it can deliver...from risk, from sickness, from hard choices about what to do or pay for.

The kind of freedom where you are free from *their* mandates concerning how *they* want to impose their values concerning risk, who you will pay and why.

Not only will your right, yes, your *right* to not purchase any care at all be removed from you, the punishment you would pay is planned for as revenue!

Sorry, would be strawman claimers...you currently DO own the RIGHT to not purchase any care at all, without any penalty or compulsion from the State.

Quote:

The “reformers” in the White House and the House of Representatives have made all too plain their vision of the federal government’s power to coerce individual Americans to make the “right” health-care choices. The highly partisan bill the House just passed includes severe penalties for individuals who do not purchase insurance approved by the federal government. By neatly tucking these penalties into the IRS code, the so-called reformers have brought them under the tax-enforcement power of the federal government.

The Congressional Budget Office stated on October 29 that the House bill would generate $167 billion in revenue from “penalty payments.” Individual Americans are expected to pay $33 billion of these penalties, with employers paying the rest. Former member of Congress and Heritage Foundation fellow Ernest Istook has concluded that for this revenue goal to be met, 8 to 14 million individual Americans will have to be fined over the next ten years, quite an incentive for federal bureaucrats.

How do you control innocent people? Why, you criminalize innocent actions.

Discussion Ready To Pay An Abortion Fee?

Real Ira — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:44:15 GMT

The Reid plan being jammed through the Senate looks like it will charge all enrollees an "abortion fee" to pay for the required abortion providing coverage. (each state must have a provider of abortion services who's costs will be paid by the fees collected from all providers enrollees)

http://republicanleader.house.gov/blog/?p=690

This is not intended to be another pro/anti abortion thread although I think most of you know how I feel about that issue.
It is intended to instigate discussion on the issue requiring public funding ( because this is really what this is) of the practice.

Go ahead and toss in your $0.02 worth....

Discussion Politicians Drunken Daughter

Highflight — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:32:21 GMT

I'm just curious if this drunken daughter is going to get the same continuous negative press coverage as Bush's daughter got.

Just wondering. Let's watch and see.

http://home.peoplepc.com/psp/newssto...119-1406901131