Lifespan of model aeroplanes...

[Snorks]

Was just reading the old 'how strong is silk?'.... and it got me wondering about the lifespan of a model aeroplane. I always thought there was only two ways to prolong the life of a model-1) don't fly it or 2) fly electric.
I always thought as soon as you maidened a glow powered model you were signing it's death warrant, eventually it will become oil soaked.
I don't know about rubber powered planes.? does the lube affect the inside of the fus?.
Personaly my oldest model is a KK phantom (CL) which is now about 20years old & hasn't flown for 19! ha ha. Shortest lifespan was my first model-an Aeroflyte couger CL model... which lasted 1/2 lap then into a big wingover...then on to the big balsa graveyard in the sky.
Most recovered is my SIG Kadet senior...some places about 5 times.
I think lifespan should mean the model is still in usable/flyable condition.
Whats the average age for a model?...or should I say how long is a piece of string?


cheers
Simon

[BayNavigator]

I have a 38 year old Keil Kraft Junior 60 which became badly fuel soaked forward of the main bulkhead. Originally flown with single channel radio and Diesel engine, it now has a four stroke glow and modern proportional radio (photo in recent Junior 60 thread).
I cut out everything that was oil soaked, including the engine bearers, and stripped off the old doped nylon covering. After checking and where necessary re-gluing any joints (originally balsa cement) I re-covered the airframe in solartex, reducing the weight in the process.
I fuel proofed the engine bay and surrounding areas with West epoxy( which is something I do on any new builds)
The aeroplane is better than when it was first built, but test flying will have to wait until the wind stops blowing.
Good for another 38 years!

[Leadchucker]

Still flying a Miss Delaware I built in 1972 whcih has always been powered by one of many ignition engines (Cyke, O&R,OK Super 60 or Brown Jr.). Still looks and flys great.

[patmcc]

I have a Junior60 that was built about 1986 & flown regularly, including as a float plane, until about 2004. It's been stored in the loft since then awaiting conversion to EP. The Solartex covering is a bit tacky from dried castor & dusty from storage so I'll probably completey re-cover it during the conversion. The engine's mounted inverted. At various times 3 glow motors & a diesel have been used consequently the cowl has had a few alterations but the nose area doesn't appear too be unduly fuel soaked.
Another long serving model is my Magnatilla which was built about 1990. It's been power by an old Super Tigre G21/40 & an original type OS 40FS at various times until 2006. It was stored then converted to EP last February & flown regularly since then. Again the covering is Solartex & there are dried castor tacky patches but I haven't needed to re-cover it at all.

[williame3590]

IMHO a model, properly built, sealed, covered, cared for, flown and loved will out live their owners :eek: ;)

Bill

[Applehoney]

Bill, a lot of truth in that statement . Thoroughly doped, proofed in the case of a power model, well cared for and - important - well stored (ultraviolet is the enemy of covings) it will last almost indefinitely. I have an original 'Night Owl' glider here from over 30 years ago which is tired but flyable .. on the other hand my #1 Senator had only 16 years of intensive flying before I ran it over with the car.. don't ask .. so dumb!

[gossie]

My oldest model here is a Luton Minor built in 1962 from the Aeromodeller plan with a Webra Picolo diesel in it. It was recovered in 1977 and is now a little 'tatty' but very solid and flyable.

Next oldest is a Miranda seaplane from Aeromodeller with a Wen Mac glo in it built in 1967. Was refurbished about 12 years ago and is is solid in the construction.

Both the above models are Freeflight and have many many hours of flight time on them.
If you build properly and care for them I guess they will outlast you.

[Gonnacrash]

My Oldie,

My friend would go to a buddies farm near me when I was 8-9 yrs old
so that was 60 yrs ago and fly this Buc with old tube radio RX and
huge TX that sat on the ground.
I would ride my Cushman over to watch.
He passed away about 8 yrs ago
and I bought the plane plus other from his son.

It is covered with silk and dope and flies like a dream......Fox Eagle.

Another purchased on the net. "Spearhead .40" was orig built in the
early '60's and redone in the '80's with mono. Another nice flyer.

"Airtrails Sportser" can't tell ya a thing about it.

"Beam" from the same era and owner as the Buc, haven't flowen yet.

Don-Basehor, Ks

[Jessiej]

I don't know about rubber powered planes.? does the lube affect the inside of the fus?.

cheers
Simon

Rubber lube certainly makes the fuse of a tissue/silk covered rubber model LOOK like crap, but I can't testify as to the life of such a fuse as most of mine have either flown off to feast with the thermal gods or been sacrificed to blown motors. I have a couple of 20+ year old rubber models now, both in need of recovering. One, a Wakefield has a sheet fuse whivh is in fine condition. The other, an old timer has a fuse badly in need of recovering. The tissue is spattered with old lube. OTOH, the wing needs recovering also.

jess

[gossie]

I wonder just how many thousands of old models in a reasonable condition are 'out there'.
Guess most of them just get trashed when the time comes?

I must have 60 or 70 models here that could go to someone for a fair but not high cost.......But how do you get them there?

[fhhuber506771]

A club member recently sold a CL plane he won a scale contest with in 1959.

The plane is still beautiful...

[Snorks]

I hadn't really considered a model lasting a lifetime. My problem is I like to take 2 or 3 or more models to the field at a time, then ofcourse when I get home the cleaning of each model is probably not as thorough as it should be... To be honest though I've never really found a great way of cleaning castor off a model. Windex is OK with alot of paper towel but no matter how clean it looks it always gathers a layer of dust on the residue.I guess that means it's never truley oil free? I find those grey exhaust extensions look ugly & rob power but are probably necessary to prolong model life.

as to unfortunate endings....
A friend of mine (old modeller) recals a story of taking his newly built 5ft span glider to the field for trimming & on it's first throw at shoulder height it found lift & was lost o.o.s !
I've also seen a surprising ammount of mid air collisions.

How do you store 60-70 models Gossie?!

I have seen a number of old peanut models, but perhaps it's the flying environment that preserves them.

cheers
Simon

[fhhuber506771]

You store 60 to 100 models... all over the house.

I had 40 in my building room, 6 on the guest bed, 2 on the sofa... and on and on... Over 60 for sure.

I trimmed the fleet a bit this year though.

[gzkpez]

To be honest though I've never really found a great way of cleaning castor off a model. Windex is OK with alot of paper towel but no matter how clean it looks it always gathers a layer of dust on the residue.I guess that means it's never truley oil free?

Simon,

Try this formula:

20 oz water
2 oz ammonia
4 oz rubbing alcohol
1/2 oz Palmolive dish soap (I use whatever is on the sink; the soap/detergent is important for drying and cutting the oil)


Also some paper towels scratch your finish a little, so be careful or use cloth.

Oldest model I flew last year was 60+ years. Care number of flights, Construction techniques and storage method and place also deal with longevity.

Greg

[Applehoney]

> I've never really found a great way of cleaning castor off a model.

Waaay back, when it could easily be obtained from local chemist/pharmacy/drugstore ... a pad soaked in ether would clean off a model remarkably well, even tissued surfacers that looked clean - brightened the colours, too. Not indoors, of course!

[Gluehand]

Pure paraffin/kerosene (diesels) and pure methanol (glows), work fairly good...anyhow it works better than household detergents etc....

[fhhuber506771]

Pure methanol is all kinds of fun... Wear gloves (at least). It absorbs through skin and accumulated exposure can cause brain damage.

We don't get much exposure to Methanol through normal operation of the engines. But put it on a rag an use bare hands is not a good idea.

[Gluehand]

I stand corrected there...should have mentioned the health aspects....and the paraffin/kerosene is just slightly "better" in this respect.....

...although in past time, nobody had the shadow of an idea...... :eek:

[patmcc]

If the diesel fuel uses castor lubricant then I'm afraid paraffin/kerosene won't work. It's the ether in diesel fuel that dissolves the oil.

I've tried all types of solvent & household detergents to shift dried castor from Solartex & nylon with limited success. Some of the more aggressive solvents like methylated spirit, methanol & cellulose thinners followed by detergent & hot water work to a point but so far none have been wholly successfull.

[Thermaler]

I am flying a Legion Air 140 that was built in the early seventies, has a bit of a "U" shape in the wings when winching it up but...
I have an old Graupner 2m that I don't know the name of the is still flying, balsa over foam?? Must be at least 20 years old.
One of my Flacon 880's was built shortly after they hit the market in the early part of the 80's.
I have a 20 year old Aquila that was flown at Woodcrafters and the NATs last year and will be back up for the Legion Air this year in NATs Nostalgia and RES.
I have a couple of Soarcraft Magnum 12's that will fly when I find/make a canopy plug.
They last as long as they are taken care of.
I have a buddy with an ancient Sundancer that flew last year.

[Gluehand]

I'm not too sure....when mixing diesel fuel, you normally start to solve the castor in the paraffin, then adding the ether...to me, paraffin/kerosene seems to solve most kinds of oil products...

Dried/"hardened" castor oil is really hard to solve...when cleaning engine parts, sometimes a week-long soak in cellulose thinner is the only way of removing it.
Strong heat is another way of bringing life to hard castor oil, as a first step.
Obviously none of these methods are applyable on a model, so we better clean it in time...

[Leadchucker]

I am flying a Legion Air 140 that was built in the early seventies,
Me too!! And mine is about the same age and is currently getting a new radio system.

I have a 20 year old Aquila that was flown

Also had one of these 'back in the day' until a friend performed a rather ugly non-standard landing with it which led to it's dis-assembly by sudden ground contact.

[gossie]

Hi Snorks,

I probably in fact have close to 100 models here, mostly of what I call a decent size.
I have a large garage/shop area with wide shelving above head height on two sides where they are boxed up to the ceiling along with wings up to 80in span laying on their leading edges.
Think I better move some soon.

[aeronca52]

Having checked the storage area this afternoon I would like to mention I have several older models which are holding up quite well.
One is the wing of my Dad's first FF model the Phantom Flyer. (I think). The plans came free when you purchased a Phantom Jr. engine. This from around 1938.
Next up is a Scientific Flagship. Don't know the exact birth date but it is pre WWII. The wing is on it's second tissue cover but the rest of it is bare bones right now. This was given to me by a friend of my father and when I was around 10-14 years old I flew it free flight with a Fox .09.
Another FF is an original from (again) another friend of my Dad's. It was designed to follow the 'streamliner' type design popular in the late 30's. About 52" span. A unique feature is the planked fuselage was covered by sliding a ladies silk stocking from rear to front and doping it down.
The Flagship owner had also given us two Playboy style fuselages but made from solid balsa. The engine beams extended from the front all the way back to join under the stab. Sort of crutch type. Then a pylon was added and a balsa fairing under the crutch (under the wing area) for batteries and coil. No built up framework as everything was out in the open attached to the crutch. One fuselage has "The Witch" painted on the pylon, was it a real design or his own?
Next up is a pencil bomber from the 50's which was owned by the late Ed Mahler, an aerobatic pilot from New Jersey. Brooklyn Skyscrapers decal on the wing, can't think of the name right now. (isn't age great?) Remember the CG was behind the wing or on the TE.( My brother reminded me it was a Civy Boy)
Also included is a Berkely Brigadier purchased at the Toledo show around 1980. It is silk covered and the seller indicated it was built in the late 40's. The silk is wrinkled, a little loose, but okay.Not as brittle as you would think. Was this a kit in the 40's or maybe just plans built?
There are some more but these were the ones I saw sticking out from behind the other 'stuff' in the storage unit.
Some day I will make my son take pics and prove me right!

[Snorks]

Thanks gzkpez, I'll try the solution.
I remember in one of the Australian newspapers 10 years ago or so they did a survey asking people 'how long was a piece of string?'.... it turned out to be 1.32m.

I also recently heard of someone mixing slow setting epoxy with alot of alcohol to make a thin fuel proofer. I once tried polyester resin (stuff used with fibreglass cloth) but it didn't stick to the enamel.

cheers
simon

[gossie]

I also recently heard of someone mixing slow setting epoxy with alot of alcohol to make a thin fuel proofer. I once tried polyester resin (stuff used with fibreglass cloth) but it didn't stick to the enamel.

cheers
simon

I've thinned out slow EPOXY many times with lacquer thinner and brushed it on as a fuel proofer........works well but tends to yellow with age.

[billmod12]

My Debolt Cruiser was in the attic since 1963 and when I started stripping it to restore the nose blocks just came off in my hands. They were fuel soaked and when I went to take the tank out I found where the tanked had leaked and everything in that area was pretty much useless.
For Gonnacrash:: Which Cushman did you ride? That's my other hobby!

[E-Challenged]

An electric powered model should remain flyable until it's R/C equipment becomes obsolete or non-functional. BTW, I had a number of small electronic items quit working due to improper storage/moisture damage on the patio during a 9 month home remodel. Duh!! :(

[adamtc]

Depends largely how often you fly and how you fly.

Most old timers (thats the pilots) fly a few circuits and land. Both me and my mate mick try and put on a display . Loops, low, low circuits, under the ribbon limbos etc similar to the old 1930 airshows. Needless to say we get a lot of repairs/ worn out parts. If it goes all wrong, we just build a new one from plans.

If any model lasts more than a few years, your not flying it properly! its only balsa!!!

[Jim Kraft]

I really enjoyed the pictures of your Cushmans. I rode the ones my friends had as all I could afford was a Doodle Bug. Motor scooters and bikes were really big back in the day, along with flying models. I got my first Harley, (1942 "45") when I was about 16. I still have a 1984 Harley Sportster to ride when it is to windy to fly.

[patmcc]

Depends largely how often you fly and how you fly.

Most old timers (thats the pilots) fly a few circuits and land. Both me and my mate mick try and put on a display . Loops, low, low circuits, under the ribbon limbos etc similar to the old 1930 airshows. Needless to say we get a lot of repairs/ worn out parts. If it goes all wrong, we just build a new one from plans.

If any model lasts more than a few years, your not flying it properly! its only balsa!!!

IMHO that's a generalisation that doesn't hold true.

I believe the main factors in the longevity of any model is more to do with a well constructed robust airframe, sensible maintenance & preparation (model & avionics), recognising & observing the model’s limitation & accepting the limits of one’s own ability. You’ll find the old timers with old models are the one’s who have learned this. They may or may not choose to "showboat" or aerobat their models.

OTOH in my experience those old timer pilots who only fly a few circuits & land tend to be the perpetual learners. They get into the same difficulties as most rookies but are too stubborn to admit their own lack of ability or don't recognise their limits so rarely seek any help. Their models are the ones that "won't turn downwind", end up in trees, drift too far downwind, land anywhere but the strip etc, etc. The models' lifespan isn’t generaly very long but is usually prolonged a little by repeated repairs until the final catastophic "biggy".
There are also a fair number of younger pilots who fall into the “perpetual learner” category, the main difference with them is that the models are usually ARTFs & have an even shorter life span due to the owners’ lack of building/repairing skill.

My own Junior 60, mentioned previously, was flown regularly for about 18 years but never sedately. It has most often been flown low & close or aerobated. Example of showboating was to do T & Gs to a marked spot alternately with the mains, then each wheel in turn, then the tail skid only. It’ll do most +ve G aerobats & hold inverted. Albeit the rolls are barrely & the inverted is never very low as it needs some space for the ½ roll back to upright. Normal finale for last flight of the day when it was judged that about 2 minutes of fuel remained - a climb at full throttle until the tank ran dry then a long dive or spin down to a deadstick spot landing.

The model has never crashed or even nosed over when flown from the strip.
The only damage it has had is a slight dent to one wing tip caused by a mid air when a mate & I were playing silly buggers. With floats fitted it has up-ended in the lake a few times whilst trying to turn into wind after taxying out. That eventualy caused one wing to take in water but that just took a couple of hole piercing in the underside Solartex to drain it out.

BTW if you want to try something challenging try emulating single channel bang-bang style aerobatics by executing a loop &/or a roll without using elevator, only full or nuetral rudder, low & full throttle. If you need any help ask some of the old timers how it was done. ;)

[fhhuber506771]

I litterally flew the wings off of my Fokker DR1 in my avitar... and it survived 2.5 years of flying. Final flight it acted funny so I landed and found that the wings were so fractured inside the covering that when I pulled the top and bottom wings off the middle one flopped the tips to the ground.

I fixed the plane up for display and it now hangs in a restaurant. Its been there for about 4 years now. When you walk in and look up a bit... the guns are aimed at you.

[Gonnacrash]

Patmcc
My first R/C was a "Spirit" rudder only controlled by a "Pixie" radio.

Had hours and hour and hours flying time. Could do rolls, loops, roll out on top of
loop, sorta spins......I worked midnights and would get off at 7A and head to
the park and fly till the wind came up or got too much "sleep sand" in my eyes.
Wore out the ole McCoy .19 so bad had to squirt oil in it to get it started.
Still have the wing, covered with dope and nylon. Ya know I need to
build a new fuse and get it going one day. Thanks for bringing back the
memories with your post.

Don - Basehor, Ks

[Snorks]

I like electric & can see the advantages, but most of the 'perpetual learners' I've seen all seem to be flying lightweight electric planes. They never graduate to power or have any desire to & simply can't afford a biggish,heavy wind capable electric plane. They tend to crash alot due to lack of eperience.
So maybe my first assumption that electric planes have a long lifespan is wrong. Maybe it should read that Electric planes owned by pilots with some piloting experience (usually power) will last longer.
I learnt to fly Rc on a heavy ARF (flew like a stick) with a warped wing & a powerful MVVS .40 which whent off tune on a regular basis. It was awful. Needed a long runway (with short grass) came in very hot & I repaired it alot....with epoxy...it got fatter & fatter. Eventually the whole fus & fromers were a 'rattling good fit' ha ha. lifespan was about 8 months.I gave it away.
I'm thrilled I learnt to fly with it....a kind of baptism by fire. I've never flown such an awful plane since. But every other plane seemed easy to fly compared to that.
Ultimately the knowledge gained with that one awful ARF extended the lifespan of all my other models ten fold.

cheers
Simon

[adamtc]

points accepted. I still maintain that a model is supposed to be flown not paraded gently round like a retired old race horse. I got told at a scale event to learn to fly my 1/4 scale pup like I was being shot at by a fokker, not like Im a day 1 student.I now give it eveything and one day , it will all end in style.

I have to admit that even though I like to build as much as possible , I do have 2 artfs. Both models that just arent built to last for so many bad reasons. One season wonders.Thats OK as I have no attachment to them at all and allow me to do stuff I wont with a built model.

Built models should last, but I suppose I know when a model has had its day and will retire it rather than continue to patch and repair it. I recall my dads first ever club visit with a Long Cabin. He was genuinely worried folks would laugh at his building and finish. I warned him he would see FAR worse condition models being flown that should have been destroyed years ago and we were not let down. Do some people have no pride? One model was wrinkled all over, held together with parcel tape , cracked cowling etc.

Mind you the benefit of vintage is that the more used it looks, the more authentic i becomes!

[patmcc]

Mind you the benefit of vintage is that the more used it looks, the more authentic i becomes!
Are you refering to the models or the pilots ? :D

[fhhuber506771]

What is really impressive... Is knowing the aircraft's limits and flight it right to the edge, but NEVER breaking it.

Today I flew my appx 3.5 yr old .90 size e-converted "Quest" (discontinuted ARF from Ultra RC) in 22 knots, gusting to 27 knots, and made the plane dance. I took it home without a scratch.

[BMatthews]

Getting back to the model airplane lifespan...

I've got several models that are around 18 years old and still in active service. I've got one that is over 20 years for electric RC that is getting a motor transplant to update to brushless soon.

I've also got an old RC glow model that is over 20 years old but if it breaks that'll be it. The entire length of the internal wood fuselage structure is soaked with oil. But it's still sound and flyable and after I replace the bearings in the engine it'll fly again.

I've also got a 1/2A RC Texaco model with well over 150 flights that first saw the skies back in '91.

[Braddock, VC]

My oldest one was a junior 60 that I built in 1982, it had several engines irvine 20 diesel, then converted to glo then an OS 40 fs from 83.
It met its end when the alloy plate holding the lead in the nose fractured and dropped off it made its way to the tallest tree around and landed in the top.
Eventually the return to earth in the middle of a tarmac road, caused terminal damage.
That was about 3 years ago, during its life I recovered it once, profilm to solartex, built a new stab, new fin 1/2 a wing renewed the front (diesel soaked) and rebuilt the u/c "n" times...loved it to bits.