College Crossroads: Electrical vs. Mechanical Engineering

[KatanaGuy]

This seems the closest forum to the context of my question. I am ultimately wanting to work in the field of large and small UAVs. As a college student, I'm stuck between becoming an Electrical Engineer or a Mechanical Engineer, these being the two programs offered at my university. Some background:

I've always been interested in science and airplanes. During Middle School, I did a lot of science fair projects with robotics. During high school, I turned to developing my own plane designs. The culmination of these projects was a UAV of my own design which got me to the International Science and Engineering Fair in Phoenix 2005. That project saw me design, build and fly the UAV, but I didn't get much beyond the circuit board design for the autopilot that I intended to build for the UAV.

Now as a sophomore in Electrical Engineering, I feel like I'm actually a Mechanical Engineer because I'm always thinking of plane designs and such. I crave the day when I'll be able to use CATIA/SolidWorks or NX to design a few of my UAV designs. However, the reason I'm in Electrical is because I'm more of a computer nerd, and would rather design circuits and embedded systems than worry about thermodynamics and shear stresses. I know I can take CAD/CAM (a ME course) as an EE, but I will have to make a split eventually as to what field I will choose. I don't think I've received a proper view of either field. Does the distinction even matter?

Ok, so that's my life history. Does any of this sound familiar? What are your suggestions? Are small UAVs more of an Electrical or Mechanical thing? Or are these things technically Aerospace engineering? Are you guys Electrical, Mechanical, Aerospace, all of the above or something else?

Thanks,

-Steve

[zlite]

Good question. I think it depends on how small a UAV you mean. The really tiny MAVs (under 1 ft) are more of a mechanical/materials challenge (although the EE aspects are no joke). Larger than that, they're more of a CS/EE challenge as the onboard computing/sensing ability grows.

[AntonK]

If in the end you want to get paid, I would suggest the EE degree. You will get paid more for it. Once with a company you can show your strengths doing the other things and be involved in more of the process.

AJ

[Pack AE]

Steve -- If you're interested in Small UAVs, making something that really works and really distinguishes itself is a delicate balance between Aerospace Engineering and Electrical/Computer Engineering. I've worked on the AE side of several small UAV designs.

Based on my experience in the Small UAV industry... if I had it to do over again, I'd go EE. There are so many airframe designs already out there. When you consider that you could create a "UAV" by going out and buying one of the thousands of RC aircraft on the market and retrofitting it with an off-the-shelf autopilot, you can see why it's difficult to find companies that are willing to sink the money into designing a UAV from the ground up.

So there are limited opportunities for small UAV airframe designers, at least in the current market. Perhaps in 2-5 years, when our government MAY begin allowing small UAVs to be legally used for commercial purposes in US airspace, this will change. But that's a risky bet.

Conversely, I see the EE side of small UAV work as having much more opportunity, now and in the future. There is so much that could be done to make UAVs "smarter," and all of that work can be ported from small UAVs to larger UAVs or other robotics.

But, if you're stubborn like me, you just really love airplanes, and you believe that you can create innovate airframe designs that distinguish themselves from all the clutter that's out there... UAVs are a good field to go into because you do get a lot of freedom as a designer... if, of course, you can find (or create) that job for yourself. AE and ME are relatively similar up until the senior year (at least, this was the case at my college), so you should be able to delay that potential decision for a bit, but I would strongly suggest going the AE route if your main interest is airplane design.

And there's always the dual degree route... someone with degrees in AE and EE would have a big advantage in that they would truly understand the system as a whole. I myself am trying to decide whether or not to go back to school for an EE degree for this very reason.

Hope this helps!

[clolson]

I haven't seen anyone suggest Computer Science as an option. In my Aero/ME departments, there are a lot of sharp people that can design mechanical assemblies, design airplanes, build hardware, crunch formulas and do great theoretical work. But most of them can't code their way out of a paper bag. I'm disappointed that these engineering programs put so little emphasis on writing software ... there are reasons why it is this way and those reasons are hard to change.

At the end of the day, these programs kick out graduates that have trouble writing and compiling a hello world program.

As technology progresses, more devices have embedded processors, and more of the functionality is pushed into the processor rather than being handled mechanically. If you plan on spending your life designing snow shovels, then you might not need an embedded processor. But all the really fun, exciting, cool stuff has an embedded processor inside doing much of the fun and interesting stuff, so if you can't do that side of the project, you are very limited.

On second thought, do go for EE or ME or Aero and hire me to do your software work when you get to that point of your project. :-)

Curt.

[Tuner]

Me Im going back to school to finish a UAV that I started that is a Quad Rotor Tilt/Wing.

After much research I have learned that Computer Science is very important to me. The majority of the problems found with UAV designs require Research and Developlment. While engineering is very important as well understand that Engineers more often than not are left to build what R&D learns is a good design. I know I am over generalizing hear. Computer Vision is one of the areas that I see most crucial to small UAV mostly because of the Sense and Avoid barrier.

I am going for a Double Major Double minor Computer Science Computer Engineer with a Minor in Aeronautical Engineering and Mathematics ( I dislike math but its crucial)

Most companies that develop UAV's are small and small companies often look to hire people that are skilled in more than one discipline.

[juanmartinez]

Hi
I am an EE from CalPoly with emphasis RF and analog design like most in my class, in if I had a chance to change history and start again I would have switched to computer engineering for the emphasis in digital design and programming so crucial nowadays in the workforce and would have chosen my electives in analog courses, i.e. OpAmp design, filters, etc, and power distribution just to get an idea of how the real world works. Definitely not computer science, those guys are taught to think within the box, computer box I mean and have no idea how to use a multimeter, besides they should include classes in Hindi or Punjavi in case you have to relocate. RCs are one of my hobbies, for me the mechanics are somewhat intuitive, the RF I understand it, but the code design for a autonomous vehicle I have been putting together is quite a challenge but doable.
Hope my ideas are useful, 12 years in the workforce and not bored yet.

[clolson]

As was said earlier, I agree that the most valuable people are the ones with expertise and competence in more than one field. For the UAS world you need to cover a number of areas either by yourself, or among your team. Only being competent in a single area really will limit your effectiveness in the world of engineering. So most people I know that are really good have a few side hobbies that push them in their weak areas ... and whatever you do, at least be good at what you study!

I've seen mechanical engineers that can't change a tire, I've seen aerospace engineers who couldn't make a paper airplane that flies, and I've seen computer scientists that can't find their computer's on button.

Personally I come from a computer science/math background, got heavily involved in flight simulation via my hobby life, that transitioned into a real driving simulation job, and that led to doing more and more "engineering" work. Having a lifelong love of RC and all things aviation, I managed to get connected up with some UAV projects, and that has really pushed me on the electronics side of the equation, but it's been good. I'm no longer the worst solderer that I know. :-)

Curt.

[eddymoore]

I'm doing an engineering degree at the moment, in the third of four years, where I do a common two years then specialize for the final two. My specialism is mainly in information engineering - sig proc and control, which occasional visits to machine learning and computer vision - they'll all converge when your UAV gets it wing shot off and needs to re-learn how to fly itself.

I'm also doing some dynamics modules - Lagrangian and Hamiltonian mechanics, gyroscopes and so on.

That's my specialization - dynamics and control, if you had to give it a title. The dynamics stuff is really pretty easy - kind of intuitive, and once you get over the fact that Lagrange was younger when he invented his mechanics than I am when I study it, it's all quite pleasing and comfortable. I don't think I'd have had too much difficulty learning it from a book. I'm glad I went for a more EE-ish slant.

That said, a lot of computer scientists could do with some kind of knowledge of control and dynamics. Writing good software is really something you should learn in the course of actually doing something useful, rather than doing the degree just so you can learn how to write the software.

As I see it, if you're asking on this forum, you're already someone who likes tinkering and experimenting, and you're already pro-active and have an excellent engineering-related hobby. Whatever you end up doing, you'll learn a lot about the other thing just by messing around. You'll certainly how to program. You won't be one of the people that clolson identifies.

I'd not done much C++ before this summer, but my summer placement called for it, I did some basic tutorials, got my head around maps and templates, and you know what, within a couple of weeks it started to click and I'm now pretty comfortable with it. It just seems to be a question of finding a good reason to sit down and learn it. I'm sort of trotting out the same old trite clichés, but it's far better to learn how to do something, with C++ as your tool, than to learn C++ for its own sake, in my opinion.

My conclusion - go with the cool and interesting physics/engineering, and the rest will take care of itself.Also, don't narrow your options too soon. I promise you this - so many people I meet start their degree 'knowing' what they're going to end up doing. I did too. Totally changed. It's a real eye-opener. I am thankful that my course gave me the flexibility to try everything for two years before having to narrow in and specialise.

[KSU Flyer]

If it makes any difference, I have an ME degree from Kansas State University, and have worked on several aspects of UAV design/development. My interests were always in automatic machine controls...

Anyway, I don't know that the answer is all that simple, it all depends on the particular college of engineering and the profs teaching in it. As an ME student at KSU, we had the option to place emphasis on different aspects of the ME curriculum after completing the fundamental engineering coursework. This way, a student more interested in thermodynamics can pursue advanced heat transfer courses, a student more interested in controls can pursue more control theory and laboratory work, same for those interested in structural work, etc. Personally, I know that at KSU, as an ME, I got a chance to do more hands on work in controls than those in EE. All in all, you need to interview the profs in each of the departments and find out what they're researching. If the prof is developing UAVs, and is in the ME department I would go that direction. If the prof is developing UAVs, and is in the EE department I would go in that direction.

In my opinion, knowledge of coding is no more than a tool...like a hammer, screw-driver, etc. Sure, you might know how to swing a hammer and drive a nail, but do you know the proper way to build a house? ...what I mean is you might be the best C++ code warrior in the world, but if you have no idea of fundamental controls, you won't be writing code to implement a Kalman filter for your UAV properly.

-Mike

[KatanaGuy]

I feel guilty replying for fear that it will terminate this discussion. Thank you all for the advice. Within the last 2 days, I've consulted most of your posts here and doubled the number of professors and engineers I've interviewed. The more I've thought of it, the more I feel I should just sit with what I was and am comfortable with, which is to pursue a EE with all the ME classes I can take to my heart's content.

Of all the opinions I got here in Provo, the best I feel was the one offered by the Engineering Graphics CAD/CAM professor: choosing a degree is like getting married. It is a decision I shouldn't rush into, and he advised that I probably should let the decision wait a semester while taking his class. According to him, working CAD/CAM/CAE will help me see if I like ME more than EE. And so, again, I'll go ahead with EE and be prepared to switch to ME.

The only loss in this whole process is that the current physics class I'm taking, designed for EEs, will be a throw away. As I think of this, that is what started this whole panic attack with majors. I started feeling the split, like having each foot on a separate boat, each starting to move in separate directions. Interviewing professors got me concerned and confused, and the rest, .... as illustrated in my first post.

Whatever I choose, I agree with Curt that I should probably be as proficient as possible in my field. Will do. Also, Pack AE, you're right in that designing UAVs allows a lot of freedom; it is something I'll always do, either as a hobby or as a AE/ME if I find I am in that group of premier designers.

And so the story continues, I suppose I'll keep this thread updated with my adventures this semester. Keep the advice rolling, I know there are probably others who are also in this boat.

Thanks much!

-Steve

[Jack Crossfire]

In the old days, BYU students normally took 5 years & got dual majors but now it's probably 10 years. Would consider a 5 year EE major, doing something with the magicc lab, astronomy, meteorology, music, recording studio, video production & not taking summers off. There was also a group which launched suborbital rockets. Don't think a focus in mechanical engineering would be as valuable as the other stuff you could learn there except American Heritage. Mechanical engineering is taught everywhere. There's a lot of other stuff which is only taught at BYU & it's less about how to build the UAV than what the UAV is used for.

[KatanaGuy]

The story continues,....

Tonight: I'm panicked. I only have 97 hours to write a paper and submit it to the Region VI AIAA Student Conference. I'll post the manuscript that results in a separate thread, if I make it. I've been meaning to post on RCG all my UAV projects and ideas, but have never got around to it. Long tangent.....

Anyhow, THE UPDATE:
I'm wondering where I'll be headed after graduation from EE here at BYU. I'm certain that I'll be going to graduate school. The question is where and what degree?

What degree:
I'm 55% sure I'll do Aerospace as a Master's degree, specializing in Controls/Robotics. The 45% left is uncertainty of if I will have Aero as a choice or if I'll be fine in EE. The MAGICC Lab here at BYU is awesome, but that is only under a Mech or EE graduate program.

That leads to another question: How compatible is EE with Aero when trying to do graduate work? I know ME is a easy switch, but as I've alluded to, I'm comfortable with my choice of EE.

Where:
MIT. It is the best engineering school, and I want to be the best I can be, so naturally I want to go to the best engineering school. I didn't have the grades to make it there for undergrad, but I wonder if it is within my ability while I am yet still here at the Y. Is this very feasible? Is MIT worth it, or will any good grad-school do? Is it more about the programs offered than the reputation, etc?

Otherwise, I've looked at ASU, given they got to do the Phoenix Lander, Embry-Riddle is another option, but I don't know if they do much with robotics and UAVs. Any other suggestions?

Thanks you guys,

-Steve

[eddymoore]

The worst MIT can do is say no. Aim for it.

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[jglenn]

In the current employment market, both EE and ME jobs are pretty slim. Some think 20% of people cannot find jobs. Any job. Outsourcing has destroyed much manufacturing in the USA. Several big companies probably make 80% of
the UAV's. I would do some simple research on just how many jobs, of any type,

are available in the EE and ME fields.To me they are very different careers. I deal with both on my job, which is not aerospace, but I have worked in that
field, weapons, and space jobs. Been in the field since 1975, and will tell you that things have changed a lot, both in the technology, and careers. Hate to sound negative, but all the training in the world will not help if there are no employers. Keep a second field handy, like windmills or solar junk. Hybrid cars!:D

[Mecha]

I believe all the advise have been great! I am a ME and often find myself handicapped for not having a strong programming background. I have not, however, felt handicapped for not knowing enough EE stuff.

I believe (only my opinion) the best example of this is Dean Goedde (Attopilot), he is has a PhD in Chemestry, yet was able to create one of the best autopilots because he know how to program, and he can think in 3D.

In terms of deciding what degree, I would go for ME with a minor on Computer Science, or the other way around. This will facilitate your transition to Aerospace and Robotics more easily.

In terms with grad school MIT is an excellent choice, however, unless you are going for a PhD, and are bringing your own funding it gets extremely competitive. Usually if you have a fellowship (NSF or any other), universities in general tend to like you better. MIT does not require a GRE for their ME or EE major’s admission, but they look very closely at your statement of purpose, previous research experience and letters of recommendation. Grades are also important, but not as much as the pervious three. So, if this is a goal, try to bring them up to 3.7 or above.
Another thing that you can try is the MSRP (MIT Summer Research Program), if accepted, this will give you a good idea if MIT is for you or not, being accepted to this program do not warrantees anything in terms of grad school.

The best university for grad school is the one that pays for your tuition plus a stipend, has a good reputation (top 20) and is doing research in the area you want to peruse.

[ram0207]

Yeah I was going to say name is everything, not just the name of the school, but the name of your primary adviser, that can open doors or have them slammed in your face. One other thing I have noticed is that if you meet a professor at the university you want to go to and want to work with him/her, make sure you know if he/she wants to work with you, and that alone can get you in, as a professor who wants you can overcome bad grades, terrible GRE scores, and mediocre recommendations, if he/she has enough sway.

Mecha's statement about funding is correct too, if you can be self funded and not have to take any money from the school they might just have an open door policy if they think you have the potential to do interesting work.

Good luck with MIT that's a challenging program to get into, if it dosen't work out there are other great schools who do what you want to do, and it's always good to have a backup.

NATGEO and NASA have grants available for exploration and technological research if you think you might be doing any of that with the UAVs, Hopefully I'm going to be working with AUVs and I am doing exploration so I'm applying for several grants from both organizations, just wait to apply next year, don't want to have any competition :p

[jglenn]

Yes, a farout site, but what does this mean?:

Thank you for your nice difference. :confused:

[C|aymore]

Katanaguy, I believe I may have a unique perspective here.

If I were you, I'd focus on EE over ME degrees, but consider why not both, or MSME after EE if you can. I hold that opinion because of the tremendous movement and integration of telemetry and software (even AI) into the UAV field.

But You may want to look at this from a different perspective altogether. I recruit and place engineers for Automotive OEMs, as well as for small defense R&D companies. Much of your advice so far has centered on what the schools you are looking at are themselves working on. Instead, I propose that since you have already decided on UAV development, and are quite passionate on the subject, you either already have contact, or know how to make contact with the companies you ultimately will be applying to. Doing so will generate more than one benefit for you:


You'll make them aware of your passion and future availability.
You'll possibly find some internships to help develop your skills and enhance you resume.
You'll be able to find out what schools and programs they hire the most newly minted engineers from.



So in the end, focusing on your ultimate goal and destination will help you map out how best to get there.

BTW, from my experience in evaluating candidates and careers, you are moving into a fascinating and very lucrative field. If you're successful you will earn a lot of dough along with getting to make your passion your career. Start, and max out, a 401K plan from the very beginning and keep it maxed out no matter what. You'll never miss the extra money if you maintain this discipline and you'll retire in comfort 40-50 years from now.

Good luck!

[KatanaGuy]

Update:

Thank you guys for your advice. I've been visiting this log every so often to remember the advice given.

I've got a lot to say about the last 9 months:

Since I last posted, I've undertaken my own private UAV research project, having secured a grant of $1500 from my university. I completed as much as I could over this past summer, and have secured a provisional patent on the idea. Full time school and part time work have made it difficult to get more done on it, but what I did have done I was able to show this past October to some recruiters from the 3 or 4 big companies that make UAVs. Hopefully I've made enough of an impression to land an internship.

On MIT or other graduate schools: I have the idea that I need to put down my UAV projects and go for the 3.5 to 3.7 that I could still make. I've always thought since my highschool days that I could juggle everything perfectly, but I have yet to see a semester where research and grades were both high quality. This is like asking a master pianist to stop practicing or preforming, or insert whatever analogy you like. It is frightening, as I've always learned and tinkered with UAVs, science, and robotics for as long as I can remember. And so now is my opportunity to figure out the best decision.

Thanks,

-Steve

[aero_k]

Hey Steve. It looks like you have more initiative and drive than most students I know, so I think you are ahead of the game.

I finished my Undergrad degree in Aerospace Engineering and I'm currently doing a Masters in the same field. I agree with the one of the first posts: small/micro UAVs present some major mechanical/material challenges (which is what I'm researching), while UAVs as a whole present many EE/computer Science problems. I really wish I knew more about EE and programming. I'm putting together a team for some UAV competitions where I'm hoping to pick up some of those skills. Whatever you do, do what you like and like what you do.