Don't Be Fooled by Name Brands. Woodworking Tools.

[Rich S. - CV, CA]

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In a recent thread I noticed the topic had gone astray and the emphasis quickly became tool quality and so forth. Thought I'd start a thread.

I am a woodworker by trade; below you'll find a few samples of my work. I have owned many different name brand and off brand tools over the years. Believe it or not, they all break down. :confused: Trust me, save yourself the bucks and buy mid-range for whatever tool. The poorest quality brand I've ever had the misfortune of owning is Craftsman. I actually laugh when watching their commercials. Harbor Freight, ahhhh...like Kurt writes, you can get away with some things. Word to the wise, "KEEP THE RECEIPT".

Porter Cable, DeWalt, Ridgid, Black & Decker, China Special, I own them all. The only difference I see is the end result of its designed application. For example: HrbrFrt has a palm sander that will actually ruin your woodwork; where my PrtrCbl loves wood but costs $90 more and only lasts 8 months. Go mid-range.

[Boatfox]

Curious...everyone complains that the tools are junk...but how do they treat them? I've seen guys beat a good tool like a rented mule. When it breaks..."this is junk". They never clean, oil, check screws, bother with the electric cord, or even use it properly....Hmmm
I've used cheap and quality tools in construction. The difference? You can always find replacement parts for a quality tool. Brushes, handles, cords etc...today, in house, here you go. HF or craftsman...good luck. I had a Crafstman ratchet go bad and the sales guy pulled out the box of returned junk tools and pulled out a "replacement" for me...I laughed and told him to keep all of it and he just lost a customer for Sears. Cheap tools break...HF I would consider for a couple time use. The $20.00 has everything 500 piece tool set is in the same boat. Cheap material and construction. I would'nt go and spend hundreds of dollars on the top of the line stuff, but all the tools I own keep up with me and the work I do. Of course I do wipe them down and give them a oil here and there.

We all want quality...thats why we dream of Byrnes tools. Precision and design. We can all cob together some pieces and get the job done and save a buck. Depends on how often you need to do the job.

PS: nice work there Rich S. :D

[tghsmith]

I try to use some resource like fine woodworking, they test and rate just about every type of tool, and then give you the best tool(normally cost three times more) and the best tool for the money (normally in the higher mid-range)they show the testing methods (drill bits were basically tested to failure in one issue,)

[Kmot]

Shopping at HF you must use common sense. If you expect a $20 has everything 500 piece tool set to be a good quality you are only folling yourself.

I am a professional mechanic, retired. I am an FAA licensed aircraft mechanic and used to work on airplanes and more specifically aircraft engines but then I went to work for the city bus agency and spent my major career years working for them. At least they paid a decent wage unlike A&P's get!

As for tools, like Rich I own them all. I have Craftsman hand tools, but mostly Snap On, Blue Point, and Mac. I also have some from Matco, Blackhawk, Bonney, General, etc. All good old fashioned American Made tools. Over $10000 worth of hand tools. At old prices! Today it would probably cost double that.

I think I am qualified to know if a hand tool is worthy or not. But I was a mechanic, not a wood worker. I can say that some of the mechanics hand tools sold at HF are indeed worthy. Some are junk. You must use common sense and discretion when making a purchase. I have also had tools from Snap On fail and need to be repaired or replaced by my tool truck guy.

For the limited amount of wood work I do, the power tools I have bought from HF have done the job for me. Since I don't do wood working for a living, I don't need the top of the line tools for woodworking. If I was a pro woodworker you can bet I would be using the best tool I could afford to buy. Your ability to make a living depends on it. As a hobby item though, only your ability to make a toy depends on it.

[woodybob]

Right on Tom! :D

[Shaun Hendricks]

I too have owned all kinds of tools, from 'cheap' to super pricey.

I have done much woodworking and cabinetry. I've made toys to solid mohagany cabinets in multi-million dollar homes. I do mechanical work, all kinds of 'jack of all trades' handyman work.

There are some tools I'd trust with my life, others I wouldn't. I've used super expensive tools and busted them. I've tortured a cheap tool and had it come back for more.

A simple look over of the tool with an experienced eye will tell you what will work and what won't. Cheap tools you might have to modify to do what you want them to do. Expensive ones might need some special treatment to keep them in shape. Just because it's an expensive tool with fine tolerances doesn't mean it's the best for a given job.

The Germans had the best tanks in WWII, without a doubt. They were finely made and machined with incredibly tight tolerances. The Russian T-34 was made sloppy, shimmed and loose. The T-34's ran all winter while the German tanks were frozen solid to the ground because they couldn't get them started or moving. The T-34 had a major tool in it's toolbox: a sledgehammer. Bang to get moving... Now, how much is war myth and how much is true, I don't know, but working conditions do make for a tool choice is the point.

I've seen a 20 year old, no name Skil knock off, hunk of junk direct drive circular saw that's been beat to heck still running and a 5 month old DeWalt worm drive saw that wasn't. I can tell you which saw cut more feet of lumber that day and thus had more value.

I like some of my Craftsman stuff. I like some of my HF stuff. I like some of my pricey stuff. I hate some of each of them as well. Caveat Emptor.

[more coffee]

I have my own tool collection ..Snap on to China stuff ..

I play the game ..i once bought 3 five inch grinders to repoint my house ,,@ 10$ a piece ..when it was over i had three into one ..and it puked ..i bought a namebrand for the little i had left .... and still use it ..

But Craftsman has to be for the money the worst disappointment ...

further more the next month and a half will find great deals in hardware stores if you drop by every few days and go through the tool crib ..clear outs to get the o9 models in for summer will be happening ..thats how i bought the bulk of my household tools ..and not pay retail ..

[herrmill]

Funny you mention Snap-On... their JV factory is within spitting distance of my place just across the canal from our development. The immediate area we live in Xiaoshan is home to many suppliers wrenches, pliers, cutting & pneumatic tools. Wanda Tool (Japanese-owned) is one of the largest makers around & is who Snap-On partners with.

I have been to many hand & power tool factories in China & Taiwan & typically see many of these "famous brands" coming off different lines in the same factory. It all comes down to customer specs, price paid & QA.

Chuck

[seaphoto]

Keep an eye on Craigslist and similar places too for great deals on tools. I found a Craftsman floor drill press that looks like it is about 80 years old (exposed belts, massive quill support casting) and runs like a dream for $ 100. A Hegner scroll saw for $ 250 in great condition. Sadly, in this economy, there are some very good deals out there if you know what you are buying and are prepared to pay cash. Local pawn shops are good in this regard too. Where I live (out in the boondocks of the Sierra LOL) we have a radio station that holds a swap shop show, which of course, now has a website too:

http://www2.knco.com/SwapShop.cfm

They have an interesting tool section, but sometimes the people who run the show don't know what it is they are writing down. Hence, a good deal on a "Arch" welder.

Downside for the rest of you guys - you have to pick up the stuff in person. Sorry about that.

Kurt

[norgale]

I sold tools for awhile back in 2000. They were elcheapos and made off shore someplace. The tools I sold with warrenty cost me 50% more than the very same tool without warrenty. I didn't have much trouble with quality and only had to replace two wrenches during the time I spent selling this stuff. I finally had to go get a real job but I found out that the better the warrenty the more the tools cost no matter where they were made. It's the warrenty that costs the money not the tools. Pete

Hey I'll take that welder. I may have to make some metal arches someday. Ha!

[Kmot]

About 4 years ago I think it was, I was on the MAC truck and picked up a set of Mac chisels. Looked like Mac, felt like Mac, box looked like typical Mac packaging, etc. Then I noticed it said MADE IN CHINA on the box. I asked the tool truck guy what was the deal, and he said "yep, hard to believe I know but in order for Mac to be able to compete in the market anymore, they have had to start getting some stuff made overseas".

I have no idea how much of Snap On, Mac, etc is made in China now. I know all my stuff was made in America before it went offshore.

[more coffee]

Funny you mention that herrmill ..A company i worked for ..we put new machinery in Snap-On's Tool Box plant in Newmarket ,Ontario ,Canada ...

a shippment of pre-cut steel sheet came in while we were there ... 4 guys came out and pulled random sheets from all the skids from all the piles of sheet steel ...Checked for thicknes ,hardness,and scanned them for their compostion ...then sent half of it back ...

[SD rc boater]

Dr. Smith :rolleyes:

[mitchlandry]

Rich, great work you have there.
Question for you or anybody that does cabinetry or large woodwork.
What is your take on the cabinet saws? worth the $$? any recomendations.
I have looked over the powermatic 2000 and the sawstop many times and i have seriously considering getting one (cabinet saw). my saw, shopsmith, does not fit all my needs and i am looking to upgrade. Retrofitting the table ($$), i might as well get a new saw.

[Rich S. - CV, CA]

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Awesome compliment Mitch.


Your question is difficult to answer without knowing a few things. Personal use? 110/220v? Working alone?


For the "average Joe" I'd say a table saw costing $400- $500 would last a lifetime. That's 110v, 10" blade, wheels, 0-45 degree cuts and replaceable parts.

Ridgid - Home Depot. This unit will run all day. I have three and not one has failed. well over 1000 hours on each.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100608588

Rich

[mitchlandry]

Rich,

It will be for personal use for mostly small projects, but want to venture into cabinents and built-ins.
I have looked at some of the saws at the box stores, not sure if i have seen that one. My biggest complaint so far is the fencing system. Actually thought about getting a cheaper saw and upgrading the fence to an Incra or JoinTech fence.

I have 110, but want to put 220 in for other uses. That's not a show stopper.
Working alone mostly but can call on help if needed.

My big 2 requirements are accurate fence system and large table. the table i can make larger with infeed and outfeed, but don't want to hassle with altering a fence system.

[seaphoto]

I have a Delta contractor's saw with a Vega fence that will cut any reasonable thickness of wood that I feed through it with no problem. Plenty of power to cut 5/4 stock. The key is the blade - I was amazed at the improvement a truly high quality blade (Forrest Woodworker II) made - eliminated burning on hardwoods. Over the years I've looked at getting a Unisaw, but the Delta has been chugging along for over 20 years (and I got it for free, as it had been left outside and had a lot of rust on it). Great Tool.

Of course, if you have the money and the room, check out the saw setup that Norm Abram's uses.

http://www.newyankee.com/tour.php

http://www.normstools.com/images/normstools/unisaw.htm

Kurt

[time4420]

I like Craftsman, non powered hand tools the best but their ratchets DO suck. The old ones were great.
Their power tools seem to make more noise than they have to and I don't think the longevity is there.
I can tell you one thing...DON'T buy the Delta 9" band saw. It's a complete pile of s+#t.

[Rich S. - CV, CA]

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Wow, you know, this is a great subject!

Kurt, time4420 - Great points. Sharp blades "key"


Mitch and Gents,

The unit I recommended in an earlier post has a great fence. I did order parts for it once (covered under warranty). Word to the wise Mitch, don't use the measurements on fence for a diffinitive cut. Always cut a piece of scrap stock and check measurement using the #1 on tape. A simple inch or two into scrap will do. - I could go on and on, but that would bore you.

In answer to your question; I'd go with about a $500 budget (new). That should get you a saw that will outlive you.

[more coffee]

Ridgid Tools ...everthing i have read about them is that they are a midrange tool ...but what puts them ahead of the others is the guts ...Ridgid uses quality parts ..where others use plastics or aluminum ..they use brass or steel ...

they are not the finest ..but they do have the longevity .....



What bothers me though is the re-chargeable batteries ...quite often a new pack well cost more than a new unit with 2 batteries ....depending on your brand

[mrbassman]

Stay away from any hand tool made by "Knuklebuster Industries".... :)

[Kmot]

Pile of wood made with my HF compound miter saw. I bought this saw when I was building my work shed interior and benches. I then used it when I remodeled our two bathrooms. I have used it for various other needs, and yesterday used it to cut a bunch of scrap wood into firewood which I enjoyed a roaring fire from tonight.

So for the casual user, the stuff from HF is okay. This saw is over 3 years old now.

[Rich S. - CV, CA]

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Hey Kmot, Gents,


Wow that's awesome that saw has lasted so long. Sometimes it's a role of the dice. I bought 5 of those saws on black Fri '07. I gave them to my guys for Xmas. As far as I know, the saws still work.

My saw is geared more for precision.

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/9916/uuuvw5.png

Just like the thread reads "Don't Be Fooled..." The saw in the pic took a dump after 6 weeks (one brush experienced premature wear); go figure. I replaced it with warranty and it's the greatest saw I've ever owned. I can slice deli meat paper thin :D or slice and dice lumber.

One nice thing about HF, their tools come with extra brushes. I wish all mfg would do that.


Rich

[tghsmith]

every quality brand can have a tool with a birth defect here and there, but I do try to stay with the proven genetics and known parentige on tools I plan on having around for some time, one of the best improvements on any belt driven tool is to put on a link style belt, it amazes me that they don"t come with them..

[Kcal]

I have a Dewalt 12” miter saw http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400/83/83fd090d-548b-4c34-91c4-eb3fd616064b_400.jpg and I have to say that bad boy will actually speed up while making a cut, it came properly adjusted from the factory and has worked quite well for me. My power tool .02$.

[Kmot]

Hey Rich, I have drooled over those Hitachi saws at Lowes for a long time. Waaay out of my price range!