Flybarless for Swift

[Greybird]

Anybody try that Skookum unit from Helidirect? $279. I think you only need the follower from Century for 44 bucks, and you are good to go. Who has the Gaui one in stock? I can't find it.

[Wren1702]

Anybody try that Skookum unit from Helidirect? $279. I think you only need the follower from Century for 44 bucks, and you are good to go. Who has the Gaui one in stock? I can't find it.

We're flying the Skookum, it's on our Phazor 600 curently...but will be going on the Swift 16 right after Christmas. It's super easy to set up, all of your normal radio settings are done in the Skookum programing. Servo end points, swash mixing, sub trims...everything. Just set your radio to single servo mixing (Like a Raptor, etc) and then do the Skookum programing. It took me like 15 minutes the first time. :)

If you ever fly one, you'll never go back to a flybar.

[Dogwoodtheone]

Did you try RRE for the gaui?

[HAV]

I think you only need the follower from Century for 44 bucks, and you are good to go.

You'll need to add to the blade grip a bit as well to achieve the desired 1.5:1 ratio between the blade grip center ball distance and the swash center ball distance. A total of about 58mm is needed between the blade grip balls, or about 11mm added per side. I'm thinking of doing the same for my Swift. Building a Cobra fuse for it. The SK-360 performs very well and is easy to set-up. I have one in a Logo 14. HAV

[Wren1702]

Here's a link that Chris pointed out to me, has some good information and pictures.

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t346575p2/

[HAV]

Good find Wren...The longer balls get you closer to the ratio but still short about 8-9mm total. Probably close enough given the adjustability of the current systems, and it's obviously working on other's machines. Too much length may be a problem as well...twist on the grip arm comes to mind. HAV

[Wren1702]

Good find Wren...The longer balls get you closer to the ratio but still short about 8-9mm total. Probably close enough given the adjustability of the current systems, and it's obviously working on other's machines. Too much length may be a problem as well...twist on the grip arm comes to mind. HAV


Yes, using the plastic grips with really long balls concerns me as well. I would have to say that the Swift grips are beefy though.

Here's what we did on our flybarless Gohbee Phazor.

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l218/wren1702/Bladegriparm.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l218/wren1702/TopView-1.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l218/wren1702/HeadAssy.jpg


Also, just found this NICE follower from Century, I've seen others from them....but nothing this nice. I like it even better than the Mikado unit that we're using. http://www.centuryheli.com/products/productdetail.htm?currentid=338&prtnm=CN2353

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l218/wren1702/PAAAIANGMODOCGGL.jpg

[HAV]

There you go...the arms you made look much better suited for Flybarless. The plastic Swift arms are pretty beefy so I'm not that worried about it. Still, I think I will only go out 7-8mm and not the full 11. I need to find balls with a 3mm center, like Mikado's. I want full thread engagement into the grips. Hey and that follower from Century is a couple of bucks cheaper than Mikado's too...Nice. HAV

[desert_flyer]

I have the SK360 set up on my 620 with 10S 4270 batts, Scorpion motor and rotortech 610s - I have a thread with pics in this forum. It is a monster - 3000W and 270 degree/sec cyclic. I did try it briefly on a 550 and it worked well.

I used the Century follower. You dont need to add new grips - just use the large balls that Century sells...

The latest SK-360 software update is great - it adds a little expo to the collective and allows adjustment of individual servo endpoints for perfect swash alignment throughout the collective range.

The big advantage is the ultra-locked in feel - no drifting in different orientations due to rotor aerodynamics and/or CCPM interactions. The downside is that you need really strong, fast digital servos for best performance. At a minimum, I would suggest something like the Futaba 9452, but if you're into piros/chaos go for the JR8717s. I guess if you're just looking for smooth sport flying, you could get away with a slower servo, but make sure they are high torque - the flybarless setup puts a lot of stress on the servos - I stripped a 9252 doing tic-tocs..

Also, there is a lot of tweaking involved in getting a good setup. Prepare to take a laptop to the field. Art from Skookum Robotics is very helpful

Now if only Century or someone else would make some high visibility canopies for the 620. With the aerodynamic design and all that power, it flies fast and gets small very quickly.

Finally, if anybody needs help with setup, send me a PM.

[rotoraddict]

Thank you desert_flyer, just the info I was looking for.

[Wren1702]

My build thread for my flybarless Swift is up:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=960524

[oldeflyer]

You'll need to add to the blade grip a bit as well to achieve the desired 1.5:1 ratio between the blade grip center ball distance and the swash center ball distance. A total of about 58mm is needed between the blade grip balls, or about 11mm added per side. I'm thinking of doing the same for my Swift. Building a Cobra fuse for it. The SK-360 performs very well and is easy to set-up. I have one in a Logo 14. HAV

I downloaded the PDF for the 360 and I don't see any mention about adding longer ball links to the blade grips. Where is that information? Still trying to get some background on this before I spend my gun money on it. :)

[Gadget01]

I downloaded the PDF for the 360 and I don't see any mention about adding longer ball links to the blade grips. Where is that information? Still trying to get some background on this before I spend my gun money on it. :)You probably won't find it there. This has more to do with getting the pitch linkages nice and vertical from the swashplate.

[oldeflyer]

So, is there anything else to do mechanically. Bellcrank changes? Servo arm to center changes? It seems like the servo motion would be very minimal, after removing the Bell-Hiller Mixers (levers) and taking out of play the washout assembly (more levers). For good granularity wouldn't you want to use the most servo motion you could get?

I don't see the 1.5:1 ratio explained in any of these flybarless threads. Checked over at RR and Heli-Freak too. What is it? Where did it come from? Why that number?
Just trying to understand the mechanical aspect.
Thanks

[HAV]

It seems like the servo motion would be very minimal, after removing the Bell-Hiller Mixers (levers) and taking out of play the washout assembly (more levers). For good granularity wouldn't you want to use the most servo motion you could get?


The servo movement does become minimal which is the reason for the increased ratio/distance at the blade grips. You might have to move the balls on the servo horns in a hole as well to get the desired full servo movement. Hope that helps. HAV

[Gadget01]

If I'm seeing it correctly, some pics of flybarless conversions feature mixing levers- they appear to "gear down" the long servo throw to the blade grip to retain the high servo positioning resolution. I think it was a 'Rex 500 if I'm not mistaken.

[oldeflyer]

The servo movement does become minimal which is the reason for the increased ratio/distance at the blade grips. You might have to move the balls on the servo horns in a hole as well to get the desired full servo movement. Hope that helps. HAV
Thanks HAV for the info. I was thinking that was some of the reason for the extra long linkage balls. So why/where 1.5:1?
If you moved in the connection points on the servo horns, would you not also need to mod the bellcranks to maintain the 90 degree aspect for the even servo throw? Anybody doing that?
Gadget, I thought I saw/read that somewhere too (keeping some of the levers). The reasoning was to reduce servo torque requirements as well as give the servo more throw. But it does seem counter to the idea of throwing out all the parts you can for weight/slop.

[Wren1702]

I've done 3 flybarless conversions now, all we've ever done is move the main grip ball out to get the 1.5 ratio.

[HAV]

Gadget
I've seen the pics also of the mixing levers utilized on some flybarless set-ups. Seems like a better idea if you can eliminate them and their slop and move the balls in on the servos, to achieve full servo travel and better torque, with a direct link. Some helis like the Swift may be design limited however and you have to use the bellcranks and mixing arms.

Oldeflyer,
I learned of the ratio from Mikado. Don't know if they developed it or adopted it. Also, I have not converted a heli with bellcranks yet, only direct servo to swash to blade grip which of course is not possible with the Swift 16. From keeping up with Wren's info. it seems he did not mod the bellcranks or move the balls in on the servos for his Swift conversion. Maybe he will chime in again and confirm that. Should be close enough without any mods. Of course there is some room for adjustment within the software of the gyro units to make up for slightly different ratios. Stronger servos (or at least metal gear sets) are a good idea. Faster travel as well for maximum performance though not really needed for sport/scale. Hope to start on my own Swift conversion in the next couple of weeks. HAV

[Wren1702]

Oldeflyer,
I learned of the ratio from Mikado. Don't know if they developed it or adopted it. Also, I have not converted a heli with bellcranks yet, only direct servo to swash to blade grip which of course is not possible with the Swift 16. From keeping up with Wren's info. it seems he did not mod the bellcranks or move the balls in on the servos for his Swift conversion. Maybe he will chime in again and confirm that. Should be close enough without any mods. Of course there is some room for adjustment within the software of the gyro units to make up for slightly different ratios. Stronger servos (or at least metal gear sets) are a good idea. Faster travel as well for maximum performance though not really needed for sport/scale. Hope to start on my own Swift conversion in the next couple of weeks. HAV


The only thing that I changed was to install a long ball on the main blade grip. Seems to be working just fine. I used Century part# CNLR1017. Even the stock linkages that go from the swash to the mixing arms work! Easiest flybarless conversion ever!

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l218/wren1702/0504110010.jpg

[Greybird]

That looks good without all the extra flybar stuff..

[oldeflyer]

OK, I gues I've got the mechanics beat to death (until I get my unit). :) So I get a follower, longer link balls, take out alot of stuff and reset my Futaba to a three seperate servo swash configuration and align.
Next issue.
I my reading I saw that during spool-up you are not supposed to touch the controls. Let it stabilize on the ground at zero pitch. Is that correct? I will never fly 3D, so I always set my norm pitch curve to lift off at about half stick (mid position). That gives me the entire top half of the stick throw for control. How will the flybarless setup affect that? And the spool-up?

[HAV]

OK, I gues I've got the mechanics beat to death (until I get my unit). :) So I get a follower, longer link balls, take out alot of stuff and reset my Futabe to a three seperate servo swash configuration and align.
Next issue.
I my reading I saw that during spool-up you are not supposed to touch the controls. Let it stabilize on the ground at zero pitch. Is that correct? I will never fly 3D, so I always set my norm pitch curve to lift off at about half stick (mid position). That gives me the entire top half of the stick throw for control. How will the flybarless setup affect that? And the spool-up?

Sounds like you got it. No problems hovering at mid-stick with pitch curves. Spool-up requires that you do not move the cyclic...this has to do with Hiller Decay. The higher the decay is set the less this is an issue as I understand it. Just adopt a new routine and you'll be fine. On one bank in the SK-360 I have the hiller decay at 50 and the other 100. There is a different feel in the air between the two. HAV

[oldeflyer]

Thanks HAV. Feeling a little more sanguine about this conversion.
Do you use the option of a Rx channel to switch the banks? (See, I did read the manual)

[RC Man]

Is it really worth an extra $500 to go flybarless. I have thought about giving it a try but my helicopters fly very well so I really don’t see the need.

Could someone list the advantages that make it worth spending so much extra money?

:) :cool:

[Greybird]

Good point. I would rather have more Lipo's.

[Gadget01]

Is it really worth an extra $500 to go flybarless. I have thought about giving it a try but my helicopters fly very well so I really don’t see the need.

Could someone list the advantages that make it worth spending so much extra money?

:) :cool:Mechanically simpler, less weight, less spinning drag, better scale appearance, remotely adjustable cyclic handling... I'm sure there's more.

I'm looking forward to converting my Swift in the next month or so.

[Wren1702]

Is it really worth an extra $500 to go flybarless. I have thought about giving it a try but my helicopters fly very well so I really don’t see the need.

Could someone list the advantages that make it worth spending so much extra money?

:) :cool:

First of all, $280 for a Skookum and if you modified your old washout that would be all you spend on some helis.

If you ever fly a flybarless you'll want one!

Gadget summed it up best:

Mechanically simpler, less weight, less spinning drag, better scale appearance, remotely adjustable cyclic handling... I'm sure there's more.

Personally, I wanted it for scale appearance on my Cobra.

[HAV]

Do you use the option of a Rx channel to switch the banks? (See, I did read the manual)

Yep...I've been using it recently to experiment with one setting at a time. Both banks are identical except for one parameter. If I don't like how the new parameter flys, I just click back to the other bank and finish the flight. I also have one file saved for really windy days that I upload when needed. I have two Logo 14's. One is still with flybar and the other with the SK-360, so comparing the two was/is fun. There is no doubt that the flybarless is more crisp and agile but still smooth. Hard to explain really, just have to fly one. For example, the L14 still with the flybar has a 2-3 cycle tail bob with quick elevator movement. The latest firmware version eliminated this on the flybarless L14. HAV

[oldeflyer]

Is it really worth an extra $500 to go flybarless. I have thought about giving it a try but my helicopters fly very well so I really don’t see the need.

Could someone list the advantages that make it worth spending so much extra money?

:) :cool:
Not sure of the total cost yet but I think it will be less than $500.
For me it is the hobby aspect of it. Just gotta tinker. I'm too old and started too late to get much better flying than I am now (well, maybe a little), so it is trying something different.
And the more it will look like a full size heli.
I agree with Greybird though, more batteries mean more stick time, which usually means improved flying.
So little money and so many things to buy. :rolleyes:

[oldeflyer]

Just wondering what you do about the alignment pins on the head? Stay or go?
On the 620 you can just take that part off if it is not needed. What about the plastic head?

[Wren1702]

Just wondering what you do about the alignment pins on the head? Stay or go?
On the 620 you can just take that part off if it is not needed. What about the plastic head?


On the plastic head, just remove or don't install the pins. I like the metal because you can leave all of that off!

[oldeflyer]

Wondered if someone could tell me how you tell when the SK360 has intiallized (without looking at the lights).
I know on the GY401 the rudder sevo will hunt a little bit then lock into place. That's when I know I can back away and spool up.
Anything like that on the 360?

[HAV]

Yes...the swash will self level about 5 seconds or so after powering up. You can see it very easily. HAV

[oldeflyer]

Thanks, HAV
Great! Since I run a CC regulator, when the gyro initializes the SK360 will too. My SK360 is on order but like to think of these things ahead of time. Making a checklist of stuff asked/to be asked.

[osterizer]

You should check the lights anyway. The green light only comes on solid if it's ready to fly and not in setup mode.

[oldeflyer]

You should check the lights anyway. The green light only comes on solid if it's ready to fly and not in setup mode.
Good point. In bright sun with sunglasses, it is sometimes hard to see the lights. A mechanical movement that suddenly stops is a check point. Or a known, consistent series of ESC beeps. My start routine stops immediately if I don't get the expected responses. It has saved me more than once. Mostly on multi-model days. :rolleyes:

[osterizer]

Ha, yes, I've had that experience. Maybe it's because I still don't trust electronics to always come up right, but you can always see me down on my knees looking under the Logo before I take off to check for the right number of green and red lights :). The Skookum has been working really well, btw.

[oldeflyer]

I have a Futaba 10CH with some unused models. Would it be better to just set one of these up from scratch or copy the Swift 620 model over and then modify? It seems that since I have to flush some of the model settings to get it to a HR1 swash mode, it might be better to just start fresh. Thoughts?
I did get my gadget, now the fun starts!! But 6-12 inches of snow expected! Bummer!

[osterizer]

I started over again. I don't know how you're going to set up the stabilizer, but I set mine so that the tx just sends ail/ele for cyclic, plus pitch, then all the mixing happens in the box on the plane. That changes enough that I didn't even try going from an existing setup. Your pitch curve, you'll set back to default to set it up anyway, and the throttle curve (if you use one) is easy enough to reproduce.

Your call, though. You can copy the model and try it out, and you haven't really lost anything.

[oldeflyer]

Shooting for mixing in the model. I use the CC gov mode in RPM setting so no throttle curve. Yeah, now that you brought up these nits :p , I guess I'll go with a fresh model.
Now, if I can just remember how to program the Tx?? :p ;) ;)

[osterizer]

LOL. I didn't want to do it, actually- I have a good Fub tx, too, and the box on the plane pretty much takes it all over.

[oldeflyer]

[QUOTE=Wren1702]The only thing that I changed was to install a long ball on the main blade grip. Seems to be working just fine. I used Century part# CNLR1017. Even the stock linkages that go from the swash to the mixing arms work! Easiest flybarless conversion ever!
QUOTE]
Guess what Century doesn't stock anymore?
The CNLR1017 had a lead of 11mm. Best I can do is a lead of 9.5mm with the short threaded portion. With the 620 blade grips it shouldn't be as much of a concern as the plastic grips.
Maybe I'll look around the TT or Mikado models.

[oldeflyer]

Found sone 13.5mm lead linkage balls from Align. Too long?
The ratio of 1.5:1 is the measurement from the outside of the swash balls to the outside of the blade grip balls, correct?

[rplopes]

I'm a little confused on changing the swift head to flybarless. You have to get rid of the pins from the head block correct. What about the follower, what do you have to do with that? I'm sorry guys. Thanks.

[HAV]

Found sone 13.5mm lead linkage balls from Align. Too long?
The ratio of 1.5:1 is the measurement from the outside of the swash balls to the outside of the blade grip balls, correct?

That is correct. HAV

[ammo]

I'm a little confused on changing the swift head to flybarless. You have to get rid of the pins from the head block correct. What about the follower, what do you have to do with that? I'm sorry guys. Thanks.

I'm admist a flybarless conversion also.
The swashlock clamp + swashlock arms i'm using are from RJX flybarless accessories, cheap and good for all 10mm main shafts :D

Check with your local RJX dealer, they should be able to get you, else drop an email: enquiry@radiocontrol-sports.com

http://www.daddyhobby.com/gallery/data/500/DSCN2478.jpg
Closeup

http://www.daddyhobby.com/gallery/data/500/DSCN2479.jpg

http://www.daddyhobby.com/gallery/data/500/DSCN2480.jpg

[borneobear]

I'm a little confused on changing the swift head to flybarless. You have to get rid of the pins from the head block correct. What about the follower, what do you have to do with that? I'm sorry guys. Thanks.

Here's my very old thread in another forum. Basic principles are all there with pictures:

http://malaysia-rc.com/index.php?topic=562.0

If the link doesn't work anymore, please kindly don't flame me. :cool:

[borneobear]

The swashlock clamp + swashlock arms i'm using are from RJX flybarless accessories, cheap and good for all 10mm main shafts :D

Check with your local RJX dealer..


Thanks for the suggestion ammo. I did, and I found this site:

http://shop.radiocontrol-sports.com/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=1098

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u147/borneobear3/UP60249-RJX.jpg

That arm and washout link looks perfect for the Swift. Did RJX make it specifically for the Swift?

Cheers, BB

[ammo]

Thanks for the suggestion ammo. I did, and I found this site:

http://shop.radiocontrol-sports.com/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=1098

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u147/borneobear3/UP60249-RJX.jpg

That arm and washout link looks perfect for the Swift. Did RJX make it specifically for the Swift?

Cheers, BB

That arm and washout link should work well with most washout base.

[ammo]

http://www.daddyhobby.com/gallery/data/500/DSCN2480.jpg

For the swashlocker / swash follower / etc,
you need two items:
http://shop.radiocontrol-sports.com/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=2318
http://shop.radiocontrol-sports.com/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=2319

[borneobear]

http://www.daddyhobby.com/gallery/data/500/DSCN2480.jpg

For the swashlocker / swash follower / etc,
you need two items:
http://shop.radiocontrol-sports.com/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=2318
http://shop.radiocontrol-sports.com/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=2319

Thanks ammo.

Sorry for being off topic, but they also sell the washout link separately (unlike Century :mad: ).
Sweet! :D
http://shop.radiocontrol-sports.com/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=1099

[oldeflyer]

Got the electronics up and running and I don't understand the % travel settings. They all came up at 125%. Should they be at 100% unless somethng needs addjustment? What would you use these settings to adjust?

They never mentioned the pitch servo and I was having trouble getting th green background on the pitch window for postive pitch. Finally figured out it wanted the PIT channel reversed. Then I had to swap the sign on the Swash tab.

[RC Man]

I might give the SK360 a try – who has the best price?

[Gadget01]

The RJX follower hardware is only $26 vs $45 for the Mikado or Century. Nearly half price for the same thing. They also have the Sk360 for $265. I'll probably place my order this weekend.

http://shop.radiocontrol-sports.com/index.php?ccUser=&catId=9&act=viewCat

[oldeflyer]

Help!
Finally some nice weather. Trying to get this Skooum unit set up. Having some problems.
Putting it on a Swift 620 that has already been flown for a season.
Can't seem to get the pitch range right. Center the swash in the travel range, 0 pitch in 0 degress and then it is -16 at one end and +12 at the other. Tried moving the travel percents and it didn't help alot.
What is the drill on this. I had the mechanical swash/follower/bell arms/flybar paddles leveling down pat. This is frustrating.
Any tips would be appreciated.

[oldeflyer]

Got all the issues straightened out. The Skookum on Scale defaults flys. It is a little too sensitive in the Al & El, even with -20 expo. I think a little tuning will take care of that. Rock solid hover and stops when told.

It helps to take a step back when something just doesn't go right. I couldn't get the pitch to work out. Too close to the problem. The Swift does not sit on it's L/G with the shaft perendicular to the surface. Was so concentrated on the PC application that you use to set the Skookum up, I forgot to look at the model :rolleyes:

With the 60% swash that the application defaults to, I was getting +-15 degrees of pitch and +-10% cyclic. Tuned that down to 45% on the swash, not a 3D'eer but it sure was easy to get that high.

Anyone got some tips of which settings to change and which direction to settle things down a mite? The support folks at Skookum were great and I will give them a ring too. Can't have too much help. :D

[rotoraddict]

Glad to see that you have made so much progress with the system.

For smooth flight (e.g. Scale,training,smooth aerobatics etc.) you do not want a BIG pitch range. That is great for 3D pop, but not for smoother, less aggressive flying.

What ball joints are you using on the blade grips? You might want to use some with longer stand offs (this will keep the computing resolution of the elecronics high while decreasing the pitch ranges) and/or go lower on the swash numbers (but loose some resolution).

Go for swash numbers and ball stand off lengths that will give you an 18 degree or so total collective range and a 5 or 6 cyclic range.

Also to consider, is rotor speed. The lower the rotor speed, the less is the cycle per second command rate of the cyclic commands, so the smoother they will be.

[oldeflyer]

rotor,
Running extra long balls from some Thunder heli. Just kept looking until I found some that would give me the distance recommended here. H/S in the 1700-1800 range.

When I maidened the SK-360 I thought I had the gains too high and that was why it was twitchy on the ground and so quick in the air. I set the gains lower, per Art from Skookum, and dialed down the cyclic. It flys much more manageable now.

Problem is it still is twitchy on the ground during spool up. It keeps trying to flop over, right or left, or back on the tail. I thought maybe it was having a hard time since the Swift likes to do a little dance on spool up, so I tried spooling it up with th eblades off and the collective and cyclic swash motions were bizzare. :eek:
No inputs and it was jumoing all over. Got up to speed and it quit jumping. But I was holding this one down. No excessive vibs at all.

Got an email in to Skookum support to ask about a way to alleviate it.

[osterizer]

Let us know what they say, please, oldeflyer. I haven't had a problem with it, per se, but I have noticed that if the heli is on uneven ground I have to keep an eye on it when it's spinning down, or it can try to roll. It's pretty rare, but it happens. Otherwise mine's been working perfectly.

[oldeflyer]

Nothing back from Skookum. Art usually returns the email pretty quick. Maybe he's flying, too! :D

Thought about the Swift 620 carbon frame ESD issues. Guy over on Heli-Freak says he flys the SK on other carbon frame models with no problem. Said the only time he had trouble was when he was using the extra lead from the Rx for bank switching.

Wasn't using that lead, so took it out. Thought about tail belt electrostatic interference, so I grounded the boom, anyway.

No jumping on the test table :D :D
One of the fixes worked. Bare head using no blades, but still. It was rock solid. Raining and getting dark here so the blades and real spool up won't be until (hopefully) tomorrow.

[osterizer]

Here's hoping one of those was the culprit.

(We have the monsoons over here, too. Bleah :) )

[oldeflyer]

Don't know if it's my 620 or what, but the SK-360 killed my heli again. Flipped it over on it's right side at spool up. Same way it did the second time I tried it.

I'm done with this thing on this Swift. Maybe I'll try it on another model or sell it. All I know for sure is it is coming of the 620 and the flybar is going back on.

[Greybird]

I like flybars. ;) It is HOT&humid here is S. Fla. I think I am going to put a couple of 5 volt computer fans on the Swifts. The more air under the canopy, the better.

[osterizer]

Shame to hear that, oldeflyer, sorry. Hopefully you'll hear from Art about it. As I said, the two helis I have with the SK are working fine.

I hate flybars :D.

[oldeflyer]

Must say I like the look of the FBL metal head. It's that feeling of will it flip over, twitch, wreck this time I can't take. :(

Took the 16 out and between rain showers had a ball flying around my yard. It may have had a flybar but when I turned it on I knew it would fly! :) Made me feel a little better.

[osterizer]

Yeah, there's no question- you can't have fun with it if you're wondering what's going to happen next.

[oldeflyer]

oster, you say you have several of these? Any mounted on a Swift? Where did you put it?
After a great day of flying the 16, I'm thinking of giving this it's third and final :rolleyes: try. Just can't let go. :rolleyes:

The latest wreck took out the main gear but when the linkage to the grip gave way, as it was flopping on the ground, it managed to bend the grip arm. I think it flipped it up and over the other grip. Gotta get a new one of those now, too. Another reason to try this on the 16 instead; the parts are cheaper! :p

[osterizer]

Hehe, yeah, I've crashed the Swift once, and I loved how cheap the parts were. Shame about the grip arm, but they're not that expensive.

I only have the two- one on a Logo, and one on the Swift. I kept the battery underneath on the Swift, so the SK360 is in front of the motor, with the receiver in front of that.

[Gadget01]

I read somewhere that during spoolup, you must leave the cyclic alone until you have a flyable headspeed, then lift off with some authority. This has to do with the feedback loop- a heading hold gyro makes the tail blades pitch all the way over to lock unless it's spun up and free to move.

[osterizer]

I don't know (obviously) where you saw it, but there is advice to that effect in the SK360 manual. As you say, with a HH tail gyro, if you give it a yaw input and then take off without any further tail input, it can attempt to yaw in the direction of the input even after some time has passed. The same can be true with the SK, and according to Art S that's the reason for the advice not to make cyclic inputs.

It's not a show-stopping tendency, but I see the idea, that an unnoticed or ill-considered cyclic input could create a roll or pitch inclination that you didn't expect. What I was talking about was on spool-down, though.

[oldeflyer]

Never a twitch on landing the few occasions I mangaged to lift off, even with cyclic correction on lift off. The landing was like I had a fly bar, smooth until about half speed and then the quick little Swift dance. That's where I give it full positive and the dance stops. No SK action (that I noticed) at all. Certainly no tendancy to flip over.

[oldeflyer]

No shakes, no twitches, no flips that you don't need; flybarless is one bad bee gee.

Redid sone servo plugs. Took everything apart and redid every thing. Put some 16, plastic, grips in place of the metal ones. Never did like the fit of the metal ones.

As I was setting the pitch I noticed that something was different, in a good way. When I put the link pliers on the balls to set the pitch, the swash didn't shimmy like it did before. I thought that was a natural thing for it to do, sort of like a ground loop.

Put the bird on the ground, flipped the throttle hold off and it spun up with out even the Swift dance. Smmootthh!!

I might have to get one of these for the 16!

[osterizer]

Oh, you must, you must :D.

[Gadget01]

My Sk360 is on the way... finally. I'll use the Century follower for now. I plan on ditching the Century head later for a purpose-built FBL head- most likely the 3DX head:

http://www.espritmodel.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=9067

Also under consideration is the Kasama head, but I'm not sure I like the use of mixing arms, but maybe it's a good thing.

[osterizer]

Interesting design (the Kasama). I agree that I'd rather not have the mixer arms, but it makes for a more compact assembly.

[oldeflyer]

Like the 3DX head. Don't like that price tag too much though.

Interesting thing about the Swift metal head, mine anyway. The sockets that hold the dampner o-rings are almost 1mm wider than the plastic head. The inner shoulder should have been cut deeper. That was why Century was telling people to trim their dampners off when they stuck out too far. It is also not as big in internal dia.. So the dampners are way tighter on the feathering shaft. I believe this may contribute to the Swift dance and may have added to my getting the SK360 going.

[oldeflyer]

Definitely got the SK-360 working now. I put eight flights on it yesterday. Only have four 6S battery sets so I worked my charger pretty good. :)

Don't know if it is the digital servos or the SK, but I switch from the 16 with the flybar to the 550-like Swift with no flybar and the difference is amazing. Even just doing figure eights the smoothness of the SK equipped machine is evident. Both machines have the same system for ESC/mtr/pinion/blades.
My daughter (who doesn't fly) was watching me fly and asked why the one flew so much better. I knew it wasn't the pilot! :rolleyes:

[JustPlaneChris]

I saw a drop-dead beautiful flybarless head yesterday on a Trex 600. It was the RJX, and it's stunning. Flies great too, and at $99 the price is excellent! I know what head I'll be using on my big birds.

-Chris

[Gadget01]

Don't know if it is the digital servos or the SK, but I switch from the 16 with the flybar to the 550-like Swift with no flybar and the difference is amazing. Even just doing figure eights the smoothness of the SK equipped machine is evident. Both machines have the same system for ESC/mtr/pinion/blades.That's very good to hear. How is piro behavior? Still waiting on my Sk to arrive. I am down to only 2 lipo packs for the Swift now... :( I must fix that.

[oldeflyer]

Gadget, I finally worked up the nerve to try a piro with the SK. Either my CG was off or I right handed somethng, because it immediately started to drift forward-right. Did it pretty fast 'cause I didn't want to get stuck in the middle, no nose in for me yet. The 16 with the flybar does the same thing, so I guess it is me. I was hoping for a fix to the right drift during a slow piro..
It didn't jump or act funny, just drifted. Might try some slow ones tomorrow.

JPC,
Where do you find the RJX? A REX site, I'll bet!

[osterizer]

Guys- what is the question about piros? Are you trying to set the heli in a stable hover and then want the stabilizer to hold that attitude through a pirouette?

I give a bump left cyclic to flatten the blades, then pirouette, and give appropriate cyclic to keep the heli stationary. Is there something I'm missing?

I don't expect the stabiliser to keep me in one place. It can't.

[RC Man]

I saw a drop-dead beautiful flybarless head yesterday on a Trex 600. It was the RJX, and it's stunning. Flies great too, and at $99 the price is excellent! I know what head I'll be using on my big birds.

-Chris
I have been flying the RJX head on my Raptor for a few months and it is fantastic. It is highly polished at a very nice price. There are quite a few stores selling them these days. They say T600 but they will fit any helicopter 500-650 blade size helicopter with a 10mm shaft.
http://www.espritmodel.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=9848

http://www.helidirect.com/trex600n-flybarless-head-systems-p-10622.hdx

Some have found that the stock dampers are too hard and you have to lower the damping gain too much. I use some slightly softer o-rings and I can now run more gain and the helicopter flies better especially during pirouettes. The secret to good pirouettes with a SK360 is to run higher damping gain (somewhere in the 20-30 range is good).


:) :cool:

[Gadget01]

Looky what the mailman brought today.....

[JustPlaneChris]

Some have found that the stock dampers are too hard and you have to lower the damping gain too much. Ah, very interesting. In fact, the gent flying the one I saw mentioned the slight piro issues. What kind of o-rings are you using now?

-Chris

[oldeflyer]

osterizer,
don't know what the piro issues were/are. I just ran across some threads that led me to believe there would be exciting things that happened with a two-axis stabilizer system on a piro.
Didn't expect it to be stationary, always have the tail rotor pull to contend with. Did hope it would help with the control of the tail pull. Just pilot skills that are lacking, I guess.
I will have to try the cyclic bump plan.

[oldeflyer]

RC,
was reading some info on the RJX after it was mentioned here. The Align swash dia. didn't allow enough offset to the grip arm ball links for some. Did you find the RJX as it comes from the vendor to be a good ratio for the Raptor? Good for the Swift?
What blade root size do the grips take?
Thanks

[RC Man]

Ah, very interesting. In fact, the gent flying the one I saw mentioned the slight piro issues. What kind of o-rings are you using now?

-Chris
I just use the cheap Buna-N o-rings.
http://www.allorings.com/material_selection.htm


I have been flying the RJX on my Raptor E620 for about 6 weeks and it’s very good. The fasteners and control rod ends are not very high quality so I replaced them during assembly.

I just started experimenting with a Mikado head and it looks very promising. I had a spare Align T600 head block so I got the conversion kit for that which was about the same price. So far it seams to be a little smoother and I can run a more gain, which makes the helicopter fly a little better. It has plastic grips so it does not have the bling of the RJX head. Another thing I like about the Mikado head is the ability to easily remove the bearings. The RJX metal grips have pressed in bearings that are almost impossible to replace but replacement grips are cheap so I guess that’s what you would do.

I have to fly the Mikado head more before I make a final judgement. It’s nice to know that there are several good low cost choices for flybarless heads. One of the advertised benefits of flybarless was for simpler and cheaper heads but some heads are a real crazy high price.



The geometry of both heads is perfect for a Raptor, which should be the same for a Swift.

:) :cool:

[osterizer]

Thanks for the feedback, oldeflyer. I was just curious what the issue was, if I had it and was missing it.... :).

RC- I like the Mikado head a lot, even with the non-bling grips; it's very well made. The pricing has always mystified me, though. With fewer parts, it's more expensive than the flybar setup? Quite odd, unless it's just cooler so they can charge more. :rolleyes:

[laughingstill]

You want bling grips? Check here: Look at about 3/4 way down :)

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t517698p1/

[JustPlaneChris]

I just use the cheap Buna-N o-rings.
http://www.allorings.com/material_selection.htmWow, those are cheap! $10 for a 25 lifetime supply. :cool: Which size is it?

-Chris

[osterizer]

You want bling grips? Check here: Look at about 3/4 way down :)

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t517698p1/

That's tasty all right. I like the Gazaur-style spider mount for the servos and mast, though I wish it were connected directly to the motor mount. I wonder if it will see the light of day.

[laughingstill]

That's tasty all right. I like the Gazaur-style spider mount for the servos and mast, though I wish it were connected directly to the motor mount. I wonder if it will see the light of day.
The light will shine soon ;) :D

[RC Man]

Wow, those are cheap! $10 for a 25 lifetime supply. :cool: Which size is it?

-Chris

-109 is the size. You can get a variety with hardness of 70 and 75 if you like so you can see what you like best. The stock ones are probably 80.

:) :cool:

[Gadget01]

It's past 2am here, so I better stop tinkering with this. I decided to try the Kasama-style mixing lever method of gearing down the grips. The servos on this Swift aren't high-grade enough to take on direct linkages anyways. This was really quite easy- just used a set of M3 ball links secured to the head by way of an extra long J-bolt.

The setup software is a cinch- totally intuitive. I had to reverse 2 of the servos and reverse the aileron control. I switched it to flight mode, got the green light, and somehow by some voodoo gyro magic, the swash tilts in opposition to however I manually tilt the heli, just like the 401 does for the tail for the yaw axis. If this works as well as I think it will, I'm getting another Sk for my other Swift and maybe even for the Eco 8.

If the test hover goes well, I'll take it to the field and try to get some better pics and perhaps video.

[Dogwoodtheone]

I like the "double decker" setup Gadget

[Gadget01]

I like the "double decker" setup GadgetIt will be a triple decker when I'm finished to further neaten it up. The receiver will go under the tail gearbox for nearly a wireless appearance.

My initial hover test went well. Tracking is dead-on. All I needed to do was dial back my pitch curve a little to calm it down. It was 0-25-50-75-100. It was just a little too jumpy there. It's much better now at 10-30-50-70-90.

Off to the field!

[Gadget01]

Today was the first time I had taken this bird to the field since both the 620 stretch AND the Sk360 install. It's definitely not the Swift I'm used to flying.

[Greybird]

Looking good Gadget! The stretched version looks interesting... You are taking the Swift to a different level. These Swifts are great for this stuff. Parts are plentiful, and not too expensve. Boom, belt, blades, anything else to s-t-r-e-t-c-h them?

[Greybird]

Does the heli seem bigger when flying it?