Eco 8 Setup

[agran1021]

Just noticed on the thread about the Eco 8 Royal, several have built and flown the Eco 8. I can't get it setup correctly and have run out of ideas. There's no one locally who flies heli's so I'm on my own with support from a forum or two like this one.

Problem: I can't get the tail rotor to compensate for the torque of the main rotor. That is, the heli continues to spin counterclockwise as I apply more throttle and pitch. The tail rotor moves as far as possible to try to stop the spin, but it can't counteract the torque. I have the Purple Bull brushed motor with a 9.6v NiMH battery and the Ikarus mini gyro (the Hobby Lobby recommended setup). I'm using the mechanical mixer. Pitch is from +1 degree at zero throttle to 8 at full throttle. I've measured all of the linkages and they are within 0.1mm of the recommendations in the instructions. Originally I had the tail rotor backwards but have reversed it so that the Ikarus name on the blades is on the heli's right side.

This is such an old design, I'm sure it works. I just can't figure it out. Anyone have any ideas?

[wetwolf]

try this link, very detailed on setting up an Eco tail.

http://www.dream-models.com/eco/tail-setup.html

[agran1021]

Thanks. This is the info that told me I had the blades on backwards. I made the corrections as he suggests. There is a minor problem with his instructions. He says he's setting up an Eco 8, but as far as I can tell, it is an Eco 8 Royal (it has tail boom supports, tail rotor servo is on the tail boom, etc.).

[wetwolf]

Is your gyro backwards?

[Dogwoodtheone]

No, that is an ECO 8, just with some optional stuff

couple of points, the mechanical mixing is a nightmare, the Ikarus gyro is garbage and the long run of the tail servo setup causes its own problems (hence the after market tail servo setup)

[Gary Morris]

Here's a simple test, be sure you either disconnect your motor or move motor back away from main gear so it can't accidentally start up on you.

Install battery and connect it after you first turn on your radio. Do what I mentioned above first, next pickup your Echo 8 and holding it with nose pointing to your left and tail to your right, pull the tail in towards your body. While doing this watch the tail pitch slider, it should be moving away from you. As you push the tail away, the tail pitch slider should come towards you. This lets you know whether or not it's reveresed. If it's working correctly and as the tail rotor spins the leading edge of the blades on the tail rotor should be turning up into the down-wash of the main blades. If it doesn't then you have your belt twisted somewhere along the line. Now working your rudder servo the tail pitch slider should move in towards the tail with left rudder stick input and out, away from the tail with right stick input. If it's backwards and your using a Futaba gyro you can simply flip the reverse switch on the gyro. If your gyro is backwards now when doing the in hand test reverse the servo through your transmitter and repeat the complete test again.
Most often when your helicopter spins out of control it's due to having the gyro switched wrong or servo reversed. I hope this helps, because describing it is twice as hard as doing it.

Good Luck!

Gary

[agran1021]

Gary: Very helpful. If I understand correctly, the first test is relevant to the gyro? That is, I turn the power on and with the nose to the left and pulling the tail toward me, the slider should move because the gyro is counteracting me pulling the tail toward me. If so, nothing happens when I push or pull the tail either toward or away from me. That means, bad gyro? Increase the gyro gain? ??

With regard to the second test, as I understand it, the tail rotors should be mounted with the Ikarus name on them on the right side of the heli. Further, the tail rotors should turn counterclockwise when viewed from the right side of the heli (i.e., viewing the heli with the nose to the right and tail to the left). At last that's the way I have it set up. With that setup, right rudder stick slides the slider to the heli's left. Do I have that screwed up?

-- Art

[Spidious]

Go here to set it up correctly. http://www.dream-models.com/eco/showItAll.html
But I have put the most important ones below..
The pictures and instructions are from that site, great ECO 8 site !

[Gadget01]

Gary: Very helpful. If I understand correctly, the first test is relevant to the gyro? That is, I turn the power on and with the nose to the left and pulling the tail toward me, the slider should move because the gyro is counteracting me pulling the tail toward me. If so, nothing happens when I push or pull the tail either toward or away from me. That means, bad gyro? Increase the gyro gain? ??

With regard to the second test, as I understand it, the tail rotors should be mounted with the Ikarus name on them on the right side of the heli. Further, the tail rotors should turn counterclockwise when viewed from the right side of the heli (i.e., viewing the heli with the nose to the right and tail to the left). At last that's the way I have it set up. With that setup, right rudder stick slides the slider to the heli's left. Do I have that screwed up?

-- Art Art, it sounds like you have the tail blades oriented and spinning correctly. Look down at the tail with the nose pointing at 12 'o clock for this next test for correct servo direction. When you give stick input to the right, you should see the trailing edges of the tail blades move to the right. The resulting thrust always follows the the trailing edge of any prop or rotor blade. (When main blades pitch positively, the trailing edge moves downward and the resulting thrust is downward, pushing up on the heli.) With the tail thrust going right (insert Newton's law of relative motion here), this will yaw the tail to the left forcing the nose to the right.

While doing this watch the tail pitch slider, it should be moving away from you. As you push the tail away, the tail pitch slider should come towards you. Gary makes several good points in his post, but I think it's better to focus on what you want the blades to do, not necessarily what direction the slider mechanism should travel, as not all helis are the same and this is unlikely to be your one and only heli.

The gyro functions by sensing uncommanded yaw movement (you didn't call for it with stick input) with direct control of the tail servo to pitch the tail blades in opposition to this movement. You don't directly control the tail servo- the gyro does- you only make suggestive inputs to the gyro.

If your gyro is set up for correct control direction out of the box, you are the winner of a 50/50 luck contest and the tail will respond correctly. If not, when the gyro senses yaw movement, the tail blades will pitch in the same direction of the yaw motion, causing a never-ending tailspin. While entertaining to watch from a distance, it can be frustrating for you at the controls.

Once that's sorted, test the gyro for proper direction setting. Pick up the heli while powered up (with the motor disabled) and yaw the tail manually. The tail blades should pitch in opposition to the motion- if you swing the tail to the right, the trailing edge of the blades should pitch to the right for increased "rightward" thrust. Most gyros worth the air volume they consume have a reverse switch. If your tail blades pitch the wrong way, flip the reverse switch, then power down for a moment and test again. If there is no reverse switch, slap yourself in the face with a trout as punishment for being in possession of such a gyro. Once you've cleaned up, reinstall the gyro upside down. This action has the same result as a reverse switch.

If you are the beginner that your posts suggest (and we all come from this same place), I strongly recommend you download the EHBG (http://www.swashplate.co.uk/ehbg/ehbg-17.pdf) and absorb as much of it as possible. All of the requisite basic concepts and heli-specific vocabulary are explained very well and will be of great benefit to your fun factor.

cheers

[agran1021]

Thanks for the detailed response. Well, I had the tail rotors setup correctly. But I don't get any response out of the gyro when I manually yaw the tail. That is, when I yaw the tail manually, the slider does not move. I guess the gyro is inop (it's an Ikarus Micro Gyro). There's only one way to hook it up; it is connected vertically on the side of the heli with the writing right side up. I tried reversing the plug from the servo to the gyro in case I had that backwards, but there is still no response when I manually yaw the heli. Similarly, I reversed the plug from the gyro to the receiver and get no response to the tail rotor. One thing I have not checked is that I plugged the gyro into the receiver at the channel for the rudder. That's correct, is it not?

An inop gyro is par for the course. So far, the package I ordered from Hobby Lobby with the Eco 8 had a bad receiver (HiTec Neutron 6s) and a bad ESC (Jeti JES 300). Hobby Lobby quickly replaced them without a problem, but it's still a pain in the neck.

I have a small bit of frustration with some of the references. I'm just trying to fly the basic heli with the basic setup. It seems to me, it should work (no fancy flying, but I'd like it to at least hover). Many of the references are full of all sorts of mod's. But shouldn't the basic kit work?

I appreciate the EHBG url. I've been through as many as I can find. I am a newbie but am successfully hovering an HBFP, Blackhawk 450 and a 500. I'm just starting to fly the HBFP (crashed into a tree yesterday!). The Eco 8 is my first step up to a larger heli. I thought the "tried and true" Eco 8 would be a safe step.

Again, thanks for taking the time to give me some detailed instructions.

[Gadget01]

when I yaw the tail manually, the slider does not move. Until this is resolved, the tail will be out of control and should not be flown at all. One thing I have not checked is that I plugged the gyro into the receiver at the channel for the rudder. That's correct, is it not? Yes, that is correct. You can test this easily by plugging in the tail servo directly to the rudder channel, and test the control response with left stick inputs. All the servos should plug into the receiver with the same orientation- ground wires should all be on the same side. The gyro's plug should be no different, but there could be a color variation. Sometimes brown is used for the ground wire instead of black.

If the gyro is indeed Tango Uniform, I strongly suggest getting a Futaba gy401. Setup is quite easy compared to many others. It will work with whatever tail servo you are using, but it has a Digital Servo switch to enable more precise control with an appropriate servo. An s9257 would work very well. I have used this and the more expensive 9254. Quite often, you can find components like these in the classified ads here: http://www.rcgroups.com/aircraft-general-radio-equipment-fs-w-215/

On the first page is an ad for a brand new gy401 going for $110, as opposed to $137 for a new one. I have purchased many used items this way and have never been shortchanged.

I have a small bit of frustration with some of the references. I'm just trying to fly the basic heli with the basic setup. It seems to me, it should work (no fancy flying, but I'd like it to at least hover). Many of the references are full of all sorts of mod's. But shouldn't the basic kit work? It's logical to assume as much, but realize that this heli's original design is ancient by today's standards. It was one of the first electric-powered helis on the market. I don't even understand how the stock swashplate mixer functions, so I never tried it. I read that it didn't work very well anyways from several sources, so I skipped it and never looked back. My Eco8 first flew with 3-servo CCPM with homemade servo mounts. This setup requires either a the aluminum upgrade swashplate or the stock swash from the Eco 8 Royal kit. Why Ikarus did not include a one-way bearing for the main gear is probably a marketing ploy to sell upgrade parts. Very small helis (like the HoneyBee) will work fine without them, but noway would I consider flying this heli without one. The main gear will quickly strip itself of gear teeth otherwise, and if you have a loss of power, you'll appreciate the ability to perform an autorotation landing. I appreciate the EHBG url. I've been through as many as I can find. I am a newbie but am successfully hovering an HBFP, Blackhawk 450 and a 500. I'm just starting to fly the HBFP (crashed into a tree yesterday!). The Eco 8 is my first step up to a larger heli. I thought the "tried and true" Eco 8 would be a safe step. You are off to a great start. Once set up soundly, the Eco 8 flies quite well and has many good qualities.

Glad to be of help. :)

[Dogwoodtheone]

I had bought a very similar package back in '01, never could get the Ikarus gyro to work for diddly.

If money is a issue and a $100 gyro is a bit much get this http://www.r2hobbies.com/proddetail.php?prod=rcps61801 it's less than $20 shipped! :eek:

While it's no 401 it does work well and will get you in the air and learning, if you can afford the 401 get it, they are top notch and can't be beat

[Jimbo45cn]

I used the Tele gyro from Ikarus and it worked just fine for a rate gyro. I have since replaced it with a gy240,but that was because I wanted heading hold. I agree with Gadget on the mechanical mixing. Have heard absolutely nothing but bad things about that. As concerns the tail setup with the snake, it also works just fine for learning and general flying. I have been using mine like that for almost two years. Best of luck. Jim

[agran1021]

Many thanks to everyone for the great comments and help. Got the Ikarus gyro setup properly. Discarded the difficult-to-use Ikarus pitch gauge and bought one big enough to handle the Eco 8 blades. Was able to get the heli into a 2' hover this morning. It was a bit squirrelly but I was hovering in my garage so don't believe I ever got it high enough to get it out of ground effect. Still have the mechanical mixer but next on the list is to buy a Spectrum DX6i and use electronic mixing. Again, thanks to all. :D

[mjdee14]

next on the list is to buy a Spectrum DX6i and use electronic mixing. Again, thanks to all. :D

Not sure if the DX supports 90 deg mixing....or else you might have to buy a new swash...or do the mod with the plastic ring....and place the balls at 120 deg.

I flw the ECO8 for about 2 years....it was lots of fun but I did use the 120 deg swash and the oneway bearing mod.....

Also...the brushed motors are not the best in the long run.....brushless is theway to go.

[Gadget01]

Not sure if the DX supports 90 deg mixing....or else you might have to buy a new swash...or do the mod with the plastic ring....and place the balls at 120 deg.

I flw the ECO8 for about 2 years....it was lots of fun but I did use the 120 deg swash and the oneway bearing mod.....

Also...the brushed motors are not the best in the long run.....brushless is theway to go.The DX6i supports both 90 and 120 degree mixing. I use this Tx to fly my Swift and everything else and works quite well. It's the best Tx value on the market. It has all you need for a ccpm heli and nothing more... well, it has airplane modes if you fly that sort of thing too, but if you fly helis, how do you have the time to fly both?

120 degree ccpm and the one-way maingear hub are probably the only must-absolutely-have upgrades.

Brushed motors will get the heli in the air, but they have a lot of drawbacks.

[Spidious]

I still have a bunch of extra stuff for a ECO 8 for sale if you want any..
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=943575&highlight=eco+8