Colours for Altitude

[Miraj]

OK, i've read some of the threads on Altitude colours, but still cant decide on what to go with. Maybe I could get some opinions for my Sagitta XC. It needs to be visible for height as i'm expecting this thing to get up there at some stage.
The covering will be transperant, but open to other suggestions.
So which one????

[RBMartin]

Orange has good visability. If you are going to use transparent covering I would highly recommend having one tip different then the other. I have a transparent Topaz and when you get at any distance its can become very hard to tell which direction it is going. I would never pick transparent covering for any ship I want to fly in a contest and have to get at a great range.

For fun flying I would not worry about it as much. My two cents worth about 1,

Bruce M

[lincoln]

Recommend you put the color on for the full chord. If you want to make a band of different color, that's ok, but I think that the smallest dimension of the patch of color probably determines how far you can see it. I'd pick red or black. Blue is probably ok if it's DARK. Light blue and white can be hard to see, and even orange can be hard to see.

From what I've heard, it seems possible that different people see different colors best. Also, if you wear polarized glasses, you probably shouldn't listen to anything I say, because that's a whole other can of worms, I think. Makes the sky look darker, as I recall.

My Ava with transparent red all over wasn't too bad, but I'd guess that in most cases a black wing bottom with a couple of wide (at least one chord wide) white bands would show up best.

I don't see much point in marking one tip differently. They're all silhouetes when they're far away.

[GDbot]

Is there any way we can use polarized sunglasses to help us see and distinguish our wings and tail orientation?

[slopemeno]

Solid black or dark blue on the bottoms, white on top with bright colors on tail and tips.

[JimNM]

Miraj - I have used transparent covering for a number of years <- take a look at the avatar. In my experience, the color on the bottom of the wing is not longer visible at 600 feet or so - it all turns black. Transparant patches can give you a little glow with the right sun position - but at any distance, they look dark. Up close, they are very sexy ;)

My covering method is to make the bottom of the wing dark (it fades out any way) and then put about 10-15% of the top of the wing in bright white - at the tips. I also have run primsatic/relfective tape along the LE. That bit of glitter helps me judge approach angles. I like a light colored fuse surrounded by dark wings.

As far as left/right goes - I wiggle the stick if I can't see where it is. The one time I lost orientation with a glider, I kept trying to see the band of color that was on the right wing tip, and the glider kept getting lower and harder to see every time it went around. It eventually went down in an industrial park with minimal damage.

FWIW - I wear red sunglasses when I fly and I fly red planes. The red lenses filter out blue light (making the sky darker) and accentuate the red on the planes. Works for me!

[jcpatrick]

This graphic isn't even close to "speck" height, but take a look at those colors when the plane gets farther away.

There are fourteen planes in this picture; four are the color schemes you posted. See if those are really what you want to be looking at.

[Miraj]

Thanks for the replies so far.
Well done jcpatrick, i didnt think of doing that, the solid red, blue and black stand out for me.
Black then blue then red in that order, the yellow and green are hard to see.
Hmm, so a nice dark blue would probably be best and keep away the white under the bottom of the wing.
But i'd still like to have it transparent, like jim said they look sexy.
There comes that line again, looking good or practical. lol
M

[Ian Roach]

Hi Miraj,

Here is something I wrote several years ago after receiving advice from an expert on colour.

From Albany, in Western Australia, Jim Shanks writes to provide some very useful information for those trying to improve the visibility of their gliders. Jim has been lecturing on design and colour for many years, so his advice is backed by training, and a genuine understanding of the topic. Jim says that there are aspects of colour that are little understood, and that the concept of the “value” of a colour is one of them. I will quote him directly.

“If you imagine a grey scale (a series of graded values from white to black), then try to place each colour along side its matching value you will have an arrangement with yellow at the top, close to white, then orange below it, red and green in the middle together, then blue below them, and purple on the bottom……..

Being able to identify the value of a colour and knowing how to use it will keep you out of trouble with colour schemes that will be viewed from a distance. This is because our ability to identify hue (or colour) diminishes rapidly with distance whereas contrasting values will be visible for much greater distances.

For example red and green may look striking together on the ground, but they are the same value so in no distance at all they will blur into the same mid value grey. However, take a low value colour and place it against a high value colour, e.g. purple against yellow, and you will still see the difference well into the distance……

Some may feel that using complementary colours, i.e. those that are positioned immediately opposite each other on the colour wheel, will keep them out of trouble. Not so, as they don’t all consist of contrasting values. Red and green are of the same value, even though they are complementary. Yellow and purple are great complementaries as they just happen to be contrasting values as well.”

Hope this helps.


OK, i've read some of the threads on Altitude colours, but still cant decide on what to go with. Maybe I could get some opinions for my Sagitta XC. It needs to be visible for height as i'm expecting this thing to get up there at some stage.
The covering will be transperant, but open to other suggestions.
So which one????

[JimNM]

Oh yeah - I forgot to mention this trick...

Take a digi pic of your proposed colors and then edit it to black and white - that will help you see how well those two/three colors will stay distinctly visible at distance. Basically, what Mr. Ian R. said in the above post. :D

[Forest Flyer]

I‘ll also chime-in support for an opaque black or dark blue for the dominant underwing color. However, I would also recommend a significant light patch under the wing (say at least 25 % of the wing length). Under some conditions and angles, the dark underwing is not all that visible, but that seems to be where the light-colored patches show-up well.

I also agree that all color sections should cover the full wing chord to maximize visibility.

FF

[ozmo01]

Flourecent green or chartreuce may be the most visable color to the AVERAGE eye with flourecent orange a close 2nd. However we are talking about YOUR eyes so do some testing.
A transparent top and bottom will bite you as orientaion to up or down is lost quickly. I plan to do a a stripe of three or four bays out towards the tips all the way around top and bottom but different colors on each wing. anothr idea I have seen is to do a rainbow aproach, red orange yellow transparent bands one one wing and blue purple red on the other.

the serious flyers often have piano key type patterns on the bottom.
P.S. I only wish the pic was my glider. I "borrowed" it off of a Texas club site.

[Rifleman]

With the sky being of a light colour, why would you choose anything but the maximum contrast of a black for the entire bottom of the aircraft ?......this with the addition of a pure white for the majority of the upper surface should bring you the best visibility for your aircraft - just keep your eyes on it and don't start to "fly" another one in the same area of the sky. Flash bars of a chrome/silver mylar on the lead edge are very helpfull too, especially if you have some taper to the lead edge as that will give two quick consecutive flashes for each circle as you climb in lift.........

[jcpatrick]

OK, this is a more 'scientific' attempt at color sailplane recognition at distances.

Both the large sky pictures have the same colorized silhouettes, but one is 15 times farther away than the detailed view and the other is 60 times farther away. So when the sailplane looks like the main view size and is 20 feet away, the sky fields would be representing the plane at 300 and 1200 feet altitude.

Both the large sky pictures are in rows and columns.
1) black, 75%, 50%, 25%, white (grayscale)
2) red, yellow, green, blue, magenta (RGB colors)
3) orange, green, orange/green, pink, pink/yellow (fluorescents)
4) red/white, red/dark green, orange/violet, red/white/blue, green/blue (stripes)
and both sky fields have the same planes in the same grid squares.

I think this validates the "make it dark" folks when it comes to thermals. For other task-oriented applications at less distance, some of the colors stand out quite well.

Surprisingly some of the stripes come through very clearly until they're at a great distance; while none of the fluorescents seem to stand out at any distance.

[bundyglida]

I find that the broad stripes on the underside of the wing, like you see on most f3x sailplanes, are the best thing you could do. I find they help with orientation. I have put them on the wing of my 2M first, and I can see it much better then any of the other models of the same type, that don't have them.
I know they don't allways look the best, but they are there for a functional reason.
I used bright pink and silver, and this seems to standout really well.

[Andy W]

.. now put them against clouds! :)
..a

[Guz]

What Ian Roach talks about and quotes Jim Shanks is very true, but they forget to mention "Why?" you should look at a gray scale color wheel for colors at a distance.

Basically it is a limitation of our eyes, specifically our retinas. The retina is made of Rods and Cones. There are ~120 million rod receptors in your retina. The problem is, the rods are NOT receptive to colors. Our retinas only have ~6-7 million cone receptors. The cone receptors are what we use to see colors.

The fact is, that at a distance, everybody goes color blind on small objects at a distance on a contrasting background (the sky for example). There aren't enough cones to help differentiate a dot of red on a blue background at a distance. The cones are somewhat overloaded with the blue and the red dot becomes dark gray dot.

Now that distance will vary from person to person, but eventually a person will not be able to discern what color is what from far away on small objects. (I have a close friend that is an eye doctor and I've spoken to him in depth about this). Unfortunately I can not for the life of me, remember the average distance this starts to happen. Sorry :( I want to say, ~600-700 feet, but for sure around ~1000 feet the average person will loose their color perception on small objects on a contrasting background color.

So... what to do? First thing is to find a gray scale color wheel. Oh, wait... here's one now!
http://realcolorwheel.com/grayscale.htg/rcwtint200x200comparecolor.jpghttp://realcolorwheel.com/grayscale.htg/rcwtint200x200comparegray.jpg

Notice that in the gray scale, yellow and blue are opposites, just like black and white.

So, jcpatrick, what you should do with your examples is to gradually shift the plane colors to gray scale at 1200 feet.

[Fly2High]

Just a thought....

I wear those Serengetti Aviators when I fly. they have the amber/orangy lens. When I fly they tend to make all other colors but colors close to orange (yellow , orange and red) go grey. I also found that the grey lens seem to mute most colors for me (may not be true for all).

You might want to look at how the colors 'look' through the sunglasses you will be using.

My dad's Blue Blockers make red stand out like sore thumbs against the sky (which looks grey in them)

I don't know about you but I never fly without sunglasses.

Might be something to keep in mind when deciding colors.

Frank

[dwells]

Flying high is what I like most about this sport. My plane has a jet white underside with a large black chord width stripe on the left wing. I wear multifocal, polarized Ray-Ban aviator scripts for flying. These glasses make the sky a dark blue similar to the blue on the banner of this web page (at least for me). The white pops out very well and the black stripe shows clearly as a dot at high altitude. Against clouds, the plane appears much darker but the stripe still has good contrast. My 2 cents...

[Ralph Weaver]

I'm no expert, but I've heard that at a distance all colors appear as shades of grey. The bright colors like red and yellow turn to medium to light grey.

I've always found dark colors are a must on the bottom of a solid wing.

[wakumann]

Over a certain distance the color doesn't matterer, everything gets grey /dark so
Contrast in a block design is more important (IMO)
Blocks should be 6-8" wide.

White / dark blue works for me.

Sometimes large letters will do as well (also helps to remember the Name of the Model) :D

Cheers
Thomas

[LVsoaring]

Lincoln mentioned that different people see colors differently, and based on my own unscientific casual observations, this is absolutely true! However, most all agree that a dark color of some species works best. For me personally, I always use dark purple (Plum, I believe it's called in Monokotespeke). But I also fly with my Serengeti Aviators, and out here in the desert, the sky is a cloudless light blue 90% of the time. If you frequently have cloud cover, a different shade of dark may work better.

[schrederman]

I always liked the way transparent green Moneycote showed up. It's a lot darker than the examples shown up front.

JW

[glidermang]

I have had good experience with darker, transparent colors on open structure (dark blue, red, orange and green all come to mind). For me, the sun seems to make them "pop". I have a Hobie Hawk that is entirely dark transparent blue, for instance. I do have trouble discerning attitude and directin with single colors, as others have mentioned.

Next best color I have used for overall visibility in the air: flat black.

Yours, Greg

[flyonline]

Something else not mentioned yet is to break up the color of the LE i.e. have vertical color changes along the LE, this helps the plane stand out when flying towards yourself at an angle where the wing cannot be seen fully (e.g. on approach or landing out). Again strong contrasts help (light/dark).

Not so much of an issue on the flatland, but a must for sloping.

[Andy W]

Pretty much shows - everyone is different, there's no right or wrong! :)
..a

[jcpatrick]

Pretty much shows - everyone is different, there's no right or wrong!

Uhmm, wrong. (Sorry, but just can't let this slip past it is so wrong) Wrong in several ways. This attached picture uses the sky background from Wakumann's photograph, and shows there are some colors for sailplanes that are simply terrible under normal circumstances, even at the close distances used in the graphic here.

True, I learned basic flying on an aluminum gray 30" trainer, but it never got to any distance or extended time that visibility was a problem. Not unexpected for this type of flying, and in that context there might not be 'right' or 'wrong' colors.

But Miraj's original request was for colors on a Sagitta XC at altitude. This is a huge span, but if used for XC, the sailplane may be at thousands of feet altitude where it could easily disappear. XC also lasts a long time, and eyes can get tired and blurry vision.

Easy visibility is crucial at high altitudes or extended periods (especially both!) and there are 'wrong' colors for this. Air Force and Navy (http://books.google.com/books?id=0vomT0cjY9IC&pg=PA136) gray are examples of deliberately 'wrong' colors.

[atmosteve]

The only problem with the chart (its really neat btw) above is that it assumes full and even illumination of the surface colour from underneath, ie the visible spectrum of light bouncing off the bottom surface and reaching your eyes. For the most part, the majority of the suns light is directed at the top of the glider, so under most flying circumstances you mostly see the bottom colour as in shade unless you tip a wing or get reflection off the stab or fuse. That chart, compensated for this, would be even better as a guide.
Steve.

[Forest Flyer]

What do scale sailplane pilots think about this color stuff? The great majority of such planes are essentially pure white top and bottom. And to me, they are difficult to see at altitude, especially when the atmosphere is a bit hazy.

Thus I was surprised to see, at the recent JR Aerotow, a beautiful scale plane whose underside was mainly dark blue (almost black). That sailplane was drastically more visible than the other scale models. I thought the glider was strikingly attractive the air, but a scale enthusiast might disagree.

FF

[JimNM]

IIRC - the white color on 1:1 sailplanes is to protect the composite matierials from UV and heat. Then again, I'm usually wrong twice a day and it's still early ;)

JimNM

[Miraj]

JimNM
I think you are right with the white covering, carbon doesnt like sunlight, no light and like the count ;)

Some real interesting reading, I'm using photoshop to cross colours and finding out what works better for my eyes.
The sunglasses point is interesting too, my goggles are rayban and they have a blue filter.
But the dark bottom is a must i think!

Cheers
M

[VH-ASC]

OK, i've read some of the threads on Altitude colours, but still cant decide on what to go with. Maybe I could get some opinions for my Sagitta XC. It needs to be visible for height as i'm expecting this thing to get up there at some stage.
The covering will be transperant, but open to other suggestions.
So which one????

I have a Sagitta 900 that I friend built 20 years ago. The LE's are pink Monocote and the rest (spar back) is transparent yellow. At altitude it shows up real well against clouds and in blue sky. With blue sky and the sun the yellow actually appears to illuminate and really stands out. I have no issues seeing this plane at great heights. The pink also is real good when flying towards you in the tree line. Pink is a really good visibility color. You just have to put up with some flack! The chicks dig it though.

Jeremy

[lincoln]

It's not the carbon, it's the epoxy. Glass transition temps around 140F are common, I recall, though probably they'd be raised after some warm days. Not necessarily by much, though, especially with WEST epoxy and the like.
JimNM
I think you are right with the white covering, carbon doesnt like sunlight, no light and like the count ;)

Some real interesting reading, I'm using photoshop to cross colours and finding out what works better for my eyes.
The sunglasses point is interesting too, my goggles are rayban and they have a blue filter.
But the dark bottom is a must i think!

Cheers
M

[Fly2High]

So I guess to sum it up:

1. transparent coverings might get you a bit more color range since the sun is 'illumunating' through them
2. Use colors with differing levels of contrast work to help discern orientation
3. Large blocks of color (wide stripes, patches, etc.) or lettering adds to orientation
4. Keep in mind sunglasses - color and darkness. Can affect visibility of certain colors
5. Often white with a tip/accenting color and dark on the bottoms helps

Did I miss anything?

Without pointing to any one color, theses seem to be pretty good guidlines.

Frank

[dwells]

I think you're right on Frank.

Also, the screen shots that folks are comparing visibility of different colors is totally inaccurate. Looking at illuminated pixels on a computer screen is in no way close to a true representation. RGB values can change the intensity (brightness and contrast) of a given color seen on the screen due to no blends. For example, 255,0,0 (pure red) can stand out like a sore thumb against other color blends.

[JrcSeller]

I think the best (seen from below) scheme I've seen is what Great Plains did on their Spectra: Wings are white on the bottom, but they have patch on one wing of Black bordered by a strip of yellow on each side. It isn't very big, but for me I can see that little spot when I can't see any thing else of the plane. Especially good on blue-bird days.

[dwells]

JrcSeller,

I think GP has used this scheme for quite a while on different models This is exactly what I was referring to earlier in this thread. Here's a pic of the Spirit ARF left wing. It's very visible at high altitude.

[JrcSeller]

DWells
Oh, I got focused on the "wear multifocal, polarized Ray-Ban aviator scripts for flying".. part and didn't relate... Educate me on these Ray-Ban as I'm looking for such glasses but they have to work with my nearsightedness. Would be nice to also have a goggle so I can stare into the wind more easily (slope) as well.

[dwells]

These are prescription sunglasses. Multifocal means they have a many focal points for my particular vision as apposed to standard bi or trifocal lenses. They are polarized and heavily coated. The frames are new style aviators from Ray-Ban and have really good coverage...can't fly without them. Hell, I can't fly with them either :D .

[Lance Prior]

I saw a show on the History Channel about a guy who worked on a method for visually camouflaging planes against a blue sky in W.W.II. What he finally ended up doing was to put bright lights all over the plane. Without the lights on the plane it made a dark silhouette against a blue sky even if it was white. When the pilot flipped the lights on the plane literally vanished. Work on the light camouflage thing was abandoned when radar was invented.

[ezmo]

At least I am pretty satisfied on this visibility. Now experiences on gray sky. Black boxes on wing and black elevator on bottom. What comes to top colouring, it doesnt matter on high altitudes.

[lincoln]

I think the best (seen from below) scheme I've seen is what Great Plains did on their Spectra: Wings are white on the bottom, but they have patch on one wing of Black bordered by a strip of yellow on each side. It isn't very big, but for me I can see that little spot when I can't see any thing else of the plane. Especially good on blue-bird days.

Make that stripe wider and you'll see it further.

I think the polarized glasses are best for seeing gliders that are really light on the bottom. For dark colored gliders I tried polarized and didn't like them. What's really odd is if you have polarised clip ons, and forget them, and put on a pair of cheap unpolarized over the glasses type. The mold flow, etc. makes them polarized somewhat, but with different orientation in different places. If you wear both, you may see, as I did, some black or at least very dark spots.

I used to use those over the glasses types that you can get cheap in the drugstore. If you don't mind looking like a plastic bug, they're fine. And probably if you're worried about cataracts and such they're the best.