Built Up 2M

[mikewrx]

Been away from the hobby for several years and want to do some building on a nice 2M RES ship. I don't really have time anymore to build from plans so a nice laser cut kit may be the ticket.

Any recommendations?

[jcstalls]

There is a really sweet and smart ship on the market. A little pricey at nearly two bills delivered. But then again, about what a Sagitta 2M goes for on Ebay nowadays.
The Miles.
Search for some recent threads. Available from at least two Vender's here in the states being Kennedy Composites and Skip Miller Models.
Good luck,
Jared

[tommyt]

Welcome back.

Here are a few:

Bird Series (similar to Bird of Time) (http://www.skybench.com/slbird.html)

Olympic 2 (http://www.skybench.com/index.html?http://www.skybench.com/slnost.html)

Christalis (http://www.djaerotech.com/dj_product/chrysalis2m.html)

Gentle Lady (a classic) (http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXDJC3&P=0)

Great Planes Spirit (http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXJ596&P=0)

Oops... sorry some are not lazer cut but great quality.

Regards,
Tom

[LVsoaring]

Check out the Jester 2M from Laser Arts/Mountain Models. I built the Scepter, and it was an excellent kit. At only 69 bucks, the Jester is a pretty good deal for a fully laser cut kit. www.laserarts.com

Good luck and good building!
Rick

[Mark Miller]

Mini Bird of Time

www.isthmusmodels.com

Mark Miller

[Soar_dude]

Grand Illusion http://www.mmglidertech.com
2nd the Mini BOT
3rd the Gentle Lady
Dynaflite Daydream
Sig Riser
2nd The Miles if you can find one.

Soar Dude

[lincoln]

I have a Sovereign, which is not available anymore, I think. However, the Jester is supposed to be almost the same. Should fly well.

However, I think there's a short kit available for the Allegro Lite. That may be the best built up 2M available. And I think Polecat Aero makes a built up kit (or ARF or ARC) for something very similar.

Do you really want to do only a 2M? 100" or larger flies much better. I don't know your skill level, but if you're rusty, an Oly 2 may be just the ticket. I think Skybench makes a kit. THey also have the Oly 2S, which is an Oly with a faster airfoil.

I've flown a Scepter and it's ok, but the example I flew had been overbuilt and was heavier than it could have been if made stock.

[F3X]

Mini Bird of Time

www.isthmusmodels.com

Mark Miller

A reintro! Mark is it die crunch or machine cut parts? I like the Mini Bird back in the day.

[Wylie Shaw]

Get one of each of the above, especially anything from www.skybench.com Isthmus models, Mountain models .....


Wylie S. :D :D

[mikewrx]

Thanks to all for the advice. Maybe a 100" is the ticket instead as I am rusty. I've eyed a classic Oly II for years so maybe I'll pull th trigger and go w/that or the Oly IIS.

[Soar_dude]

A reintro! Mark is it die crunch or machine cut parts? I like the Mini Bird back in the day.

Laser cut

Soar Dude

[atjurhs]

go with the OLYIIS you'll be much happier!

[cn0rris]

I second the Oly II S suggestion. I just finished one from SkyBench, and the laser cut parts are very nice.

[Jim Deck]

If you ask around, you might be able to find a Gnome 2 Meter kit. The Gnome 2M like its big brother, the Gnome 3M, launches and flies great.
Jim Deck

[Mark Miller]

Tom,

i brought the Mini BOT back about two years ago. I converted the die cut parts to laser cut. I even took the ribs which were die cut to either be 10% or 8% thick and laser cut them to the original 10% and marked them for 8% if you wanted to build the thinner wing. Most folks liked the thicker wing though. The nose block, wing tips etc are still machine cut using the original Mark's Models tooling. I bought the whole kit and kaboodle with all of the original tooling (Die cutting plates and sanding fixtures) and marketing photos and such. It is really a piece of history.

Mark Miller

[Mark Miller]

Just for fun here is a small copy of the plans and the box label for the Isthmus Models Mini BOT. A reissue of the Mark's Models/Mark Smith designed kit. The label was done with the original model artwork but made to a different size. I even found the font used for the kit name. It's called Partridge as in The Partridge Family.

Mark Miller

[Mark Miller]

Here is another 2 meter I am working on. Almost ready to put it in the box. It is a simple good flying 2 meter that will be a step up from the basic ARF's out there. Called Duet.

Mark

[F3X]

Wow very cool Mark! I had a mini bird back in the day, thin wing and my friend a thick wing. I would think one in between could be the right wing to build. very cool little model.

[lincoln]

Thanks to all for the advice. Maybe a 100" is the ticket instead as I am rusty. I've eyed a classic Oly II for years so maybe I'll pull th trigger and go w/that or the Oly IIS.
That's the ticket. Think carefully about your skills before you decide. THe stock Oly 2 is going to be somewhat more forgiving if you will be putting the nose down too much sometimes.

Lots of people have told me that simulators are useful for training. The one I've tried that seems best for gliders is CRRCsim. You can find out more about it at the Yahoo group of the same name. It's free. THe graphics are nothing to write home about, but the Allegro Lite acts like an Allegro Lite. Also, if you ever visit our field after using it, you will feel right at home, except that the outhouse has moved.

[mikewrx]

Opinions about the differences between the two for novice pilot? I haven't flown at all in about 6 years and was not an expert when I did fly.

I previously flew a Gentle Lady, several s400 class e-sailplanes, a Zagi s400 and a Sig Kadet LT25e. This time I want something bigger.

All advice welcome.

[Brian Molloy]

Here is another 2 meter I am working on. Almost ready to put it in the box. It is a simple good flying 2 meter that will be a step up from the basic ARF's out there. Called Duet.

Mark

VERY cool looking 2-meter Mark . . . I look forward to seeing the Duet at a meeting or the field . . . I'd like to try a 2-meter with a lower aspect ratio (ala Duck) too!!!

Do ya think it's time to replace my Icarus??? :D

Actually I don't want to replace the Icarus . . . it's covered with transparent yellow Monokote and with a cyalume stick rubberbanded to each wing tip and a third to the hi-start, it makes for great night flying.

Maybe we should have an MVSA night-fly and BBQ event next season??

[KevinSharbonda]

Just for fun here is a small copy of the plans and the box label for the Isthmus Models Mini BOT. A reissue of the Mark's Models/Mark Smith designed kit. The label was done with the original model artwork but made to a different size. I even found the font used for the kit name. It's called Partridge as in The Partridge Family.

Mark Miller
So,
Do you have available stock? or
Do you make up kits as orderred? I tried to get one recently and had trouble, eventually gave up on you!

[georgeg]

Here is another 2 meter I am working on. Almost ready to put it in the box. It is a simple good flying 2 meter that will be a step up from the basic ARF's out there. Called Duet.

Mark
Any timeframe for release of the Duet? Nice looking little ship.

[Freakflyin]

The Duet looks very cool Mark... is there a full house version in the works too?
(What can I say, I like ailerons and flaps)

Mike

[Speedo125]

I'd also go with the OlyIIs. You'd have a hard time beating Ray's kits.
Thom

[Mike K]

Thanks to all for the advice. Maybe a 100" is the ticket instead as I am rusty. I've eyed a classic Oly II for years so maybe I'll pull th trigger and go w/that or the Oly IIS.

I'd third the Oly IIS suggestion. The original has pretty poor penetration in wind over 10MPH. It is a great plane on those light summer days, but you don't want to range too far out as it won't make it back. With the S3021, it will be able to range out and make it back.

Regards.
Mike K.

[Mark Miller]

Kevin,

Right now I do not have any kits in stock although I have parts to make some up. I'm sorry I missed your contact. Life gets in the way of the small kit business sometimes.

When I put the Mini BOT on the market a few years back I did a run of 24 kits. I got no sales from all the announcements. Gave 4 kits to different people to do product reviews which never panned out. Sold a few into Canada and one or two sold here in the States but the bulk have been as donations for contest raffles. So I have not put much time and effort into the kit although I love to see some interest. I am hoping that with the downturn in the economy that wood kits will show some renewed interest. It would be nice.

The Duet, I am hoping to have late winter. It is a simple intermediate style 2 meter. Your basic wood spar with no composites. I may make a beefed up version.

Mark

[Griphon]

Mark,

If you make a beefed up Duet, I'd be interested. I was thinking of placing an order on your mini BoT for a winter build, but got an old full BoT kit from my grandfather.

[Wylie Shaw]

Here is another 2 meter I am working on. Almost ready to put it in the box. It is a simple good flying 2 meter that will be a step up from the basic ARF's out there. Called Duet.

Mark


What Airfoil are you using?


Wylie S.

[Mark Miller]

It is my own airfoil. Called MM-1. A flying buddy here in St. Louie, Tony Estep worked in XFLR5 and came up with an airfoil that has a broader range of good flying properties than just about anything we could compare it to for the flight regime this plane will be in. We compared it to a 7037, 7035, mh-32, 3014, stock Bubble Dancer and a bagged BD. We also compared it to an AVA which by the way is not the same as any Drela airfoil that I could find. If nothing else it will not be worse than the usual cast of characters. It has good slow flight characteristics as well as good lift at high angles of attack so should pull hard on launch. Lower drag at high speed that the rest too. Look for it in more of my designs in the future.

The differences these days are so minute that a few errant swipes with a sanding block and you turn a 7035 into an AG.

I have attached a comparison of polars with the comparisons to BD, Bagged BD, MH-32 and 3014. I am not sure why the preview shows black but click on it and it will view fine. This is the best I could do at printing the polar graph. It lost the numbers somehow. The vertical axis is CL, 0, 0.2, 0.4, etc and the horizontal is CD, 0, .01, .02, .03 etc.

Here’s how to read it. The low CL (0 up to 0.4) data is high speed, penetrating to get back to the spot. The best performing is the Composite BD (nearly identical to a Supra), but the RES-MM1 is right on top of it. The built-up BD does well in this range too. The S3014 is the worst; surprisingly, the MH-32 doesn’t do too well either (it does better with 3° reflex, but with a fixed camber it suffers a bit).

In the cruising range, CL 0.4 – 0.7, the composite BD and the RES-MM1 are the champs, no question. The MH-32 does well, best of all in fact, at CL of 0.8 – 0.9, which corresponds to thermaling in fairly good lift. However, as the lift gets weaker, you need a higher CL, and the RES-MM1 is the weak-lift champ of all, as you can see.

Mark

[georgeg]

What is the thickness of the MM-1 airfoil and what is the chord length of the Duet? With a few mods, that would make a nice little full house 2M. :D Not precisely what you set out to design, I suppose but still.......

[Mark Miller]

Thickness is 9%.

Root Chord is 9.5"

[kzimmerm]

Hey Guys;
My vote for a RES 2m is the Miles offered by Barry Kennedy. Here is a building thread already started. This plane has great potential!

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=853850

Kurt

[Thermaler]

If you ask around, you might be able to find a Gnome 2 Meter kit. The Gnome 2M like its big brother, the Gnome 3M, launches and flies great.
Jim Deck
It's little brother, the 60" HL flies pretty nice also. Mine has been winch launched, tap....tap....tap.... tap....

Joe

[Wylie Shaw]

It is my own airfoil. Called MM-1. A flying buddy here in St. Louie, Tony Estep worked in XFLR5 and came up with an airfoil that has a broader range of good flying properties than just about anything we could compare it to for the flight regime this plane will be in. We compared it to a 7037, 7035, mh-32, 3014, stock Bubble Dancer and a bagged BD. We also compared it to an AVA which by the way is not the same as any Drela airfoil that I could find. If nothing else it will not be worse than the usual cast of characters. It has good slow flight characteristics as well as good lift at high angles of attack so should pull hard on launch. Lower drag at high speed that the rest too. Look for it in more of my designs in the future.

The differences these days are so minute that a few errant swipes with a sanding block and you turn a 7035 into an AG.

I have attached a comparison of polars with the comparisons to BD, Bagged BD, MH-32 and 3014. I am not sure why the preview shows black but click on it and it will view fine. This is the best I could do at printing the polar graph. It lost the numbers somehow. The vertical axis is CL, 0, 0.2, 0.4, etc and the horizontal is CD, 0, .01, .02, .03 etc.

Here’s how to read it. The low CL (0 up to 0.4) data is high speed, penetrating to get back to the spot. The best performing is the Composite BD (nearly identical to a Supra), but the RES-MM1 is right on top of it. The built-up BD does well in this range too. The S3014 is the worst; surprisingly, the MH-32 doesn’t do too well either (it does better with 3° reflex, but with a fixed camber it suffers a bit).

In the cruising range, CL 0.4 – 0.7, the composite BD and the RES-MM1 are the champs, no question. The MH-32 does well, best of all in fact, at CL of 0.8 – 0.9, which corresponds to thermaling in fairly good lift. However, as the lift gets weaker, you need a higher CL, and the RES-MM1 is the weak-lift champ of all, as you can see.

Mark


Hi Mark,
Thanks for the info appreciate it... is the Duet a 3 piece wing? Thanks for the info....

Best Regards,


Wylie Shaw

[Mark Miller]

Yes it is Wylie

Mark

[tommyt]

Now that poor Mikewrx's thread has been totally hijacked.

Can we maybe start a new thread on the Duet and have a moderator take a few minutes to move pertenant posts to this thread?

Tom

[Mark Miller]

Tommy,

It may seem to have been hijacked but in fact it did exactly what Mike was looking for. Gave him good information to make a decision. One of those decisions was to get on the Duet info list so he can be alerted when it is released. At least the Duet is a built up 2 meter. There was plenty of other good pieces of information. Including suggestions about built up 100" ships.

Mark

[atjurhs]

Mark, any more news about the Duet being kit'd ?

[pda4you]

Mark, any more news about the Duet being kit'd ?

Mark - did the Duet ever materialize?

Mike

[Mark Miller]

We are working on the first two test kit builds as we speak. I have a friend doing a build and he will be posting a build log. He is also working on the build manual. We found some parts issues as we are going along and fixing the laser cut files. Should be soon.

Mark

[Mark Miller]

Here is a photo of the Duet fuselage framed up and rough sanded.

Mark Miller

[schrederman]

Mark... I went to the Amarillo contest and stood around for half a day waiting to fly while the 2M boys played... So I guess it's time to swallow my "Friends don't let friends" pride and build a 2M. I REALLY like the Duet. When can I get one?

Jack Womack

Hijacked? I didn't get that one... :confused:

[tonyestep]

BTW, that fuselage is really robust, not heavy but very strong and solid. The parts fit great, and it looks like it goes together quickly. Mark claims that he'll have the wings done pretty soon.

[pda4you]

Mark it looks FANTASTIC! Keep us updated!

Mike

[georgeg]

Keep with it Mark. That looks great!

[StevenatorLTFO]

Just a quick word, about the Duet. I started building one, from a short kit from Mark, and I'll start a build thread on it after the weekend, I have some of the photos, just have to write descriptions, and keep on trucking along with it.

As drawn, the Duet has great lines, its not your fathers boxy 2 meter bird. The fuselage has very pleasing lines, looks like a shrunk down moldie, and the wing packs in quite a few square inches as far as 2 meter airplanes go, so it should be very nice on the tow line. My initial impression is that it would make for a great one design bird for club contests, or a nice intermediate 2 meter airplane for the budding contest flyer.

I have a daughter graduating from Highschool, so tonight and tomorrow, are blown out of the water with that, and I'm off to the LOFT contest in Fort Wayne for the weekend, so look for the build thread to kick off in earnest on Monday.

South Side Steve

[Mark Miller]

Jack,

I hope to have it shortly. I am working on the Duet test build between other projects. Being out of work has me busier than ever and not always with models stuff. I started on the design last summer and worked on it in earnest last fall. It took 3 months to get the laser cut parts done form when I sent them. The guy I usually use had some issues so I went to a second guy who had issues and finally a third guy got them to me although he took his sweet time.

It is funny how you can do a rough sketch of a design and then it takes a long time to get through the details. Then after you get the parts back you see all of the screw ups you did. With the wing ribs I must have been on crack or something when I set them up and numbered them. Nothing drastic but I have to cut a few new ones. Bad parts count and some should have been 1/8" instead of 1/16" that I marked. Then the big one. All the tail feathers which are sheet balsa with lightening holes were supposed to be 3/16". Well I marked them as 3/32" of course. They did make nice templates. I am hoping to have the wing done by next week. Steve's build thread will have more details and I told him to tell it like it is. Warts and all. Kind of a picture into the life of a model designers life. Especially one like me.

Wish I could make Ft. Wayne this weekend.

Mark

[schrederman]

Steve... You's a lucky DAWG!!!

That's prettier than a Sagitta 600. I WANT ONE!!!! :D

Nice job Mark... I'm definitely familiar with the design process. :eek:

Jack

[StevenatorLTFO]

Bark Bark :D

[Mark Miller]

We have started a beta build thread for the Duet and so will move all discussion to there. Thanks guys.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1067043#post12498174

Mark Miller