Woody Class

[F3X]

Hello,
Where can I find info on the Woody Class. I am looking for AMA class definitions or if there is a single rule set everyone is using.

Thanks!!

[SmokinJoe101]

Hello,
Where can I find info on the Woody Class. I am looking for AMA class definitions or if there is a single rule set everyone is using.

Thanks!!


That Funny you looking for information on WOODY Class :eek:

sj

[OVSS Boss]

Tom,
There is no AMA definition. Ray Hayes at SkyBench has one for his activities and some others use a variation.

Marc

[tkallev]

From the Skybench WOODCRAFTERS link on the home page:

http://www.skybench.com/index.html?http://www.skybench.com/home.html

Wood Crafters is dedicated to perpetuating the model builder, not the model buyer.

If you didn't build it, you can't fly it, with the following exceptions:

A one off you purchased that was built in the continental USA by a USA citizen.
Construction rule:

All flying surfaces are built up from wood.
No restriction on spar construction or materials.
No Molded D-Tube leading edge construction.
Fuselage can be wood, glassed wood or molded Fiberglass.
Carbon reinforcement can be used on any part of the structure.



Exception for Wood Crafters Ladder and Longest Flight events or Fun Flying:
The old Hobie Hawk and Graupner Cumulus can be flown.

[lincoln]

AMA has a nostalgia class, don't they? Rules will be on their web site someplace.

[jcstalls]

Changes from CD to CD, club to club and regional contest.

What is allowed just here in our area is not the same. At Visalia, a Woody that qualifies there may not in our SC2 woody class as SC2 used to outlaw glass fuses too. A woody class ship at an HSS woody event may have additional qualification. And this is here in and around our area. Imagine throughout the country.

Shortly after getting my EZBD kit from Denny I thought about using it at Visalia. No problem. I talked with Ray Hayes a bit back and forth, no problem. To fly this bird in our SC2 or local club Woody events are a problem. So, that is just the way it is.

How and who should guide and control the Woody class on a Nationalized level?
No one should!
The last thing we need is yet another part of our organization or any other dictating how we build our plane, spars, sheeting, booms and so on.

It seems to be more of a local application of and should be. Build your woody for were you are going to fly.

Worried your Woodie will not qualify to fly it on vacation around the country. You can fly, but maybe not compete.

What I really liked, among many things, when I talked with Ray was his attitude toward the woody class. Remember how I stated that he viewed it OK for the EZBD. He was looking at the spirit of the rule. You build it, it is mostly wood with some composite reinforcement, and you cover it. A Woodie.

Also, Woodie's do not have to be RES either, although most are. So they can be full house with4 ailerons, multiple flaps, spoilers, drag breaks and a pop up canopy just to boot with nearly unlimited controls

Jared

[onethermal]

At Visalia Woody class is RES.

Clarence

[jcstalls]

See, at Visalia a Woody must also be an RES, but not at Woodcrafters!

What rocket scientist(s) in the CVRC decided that only Woodles should be only be RES, besides the open RES class?

:)

Jared

[Thermaler]

There is also a wealth of "Woody" information pertaining to the Nostalgia type at

http://www.thermalrider.com/nost/nost.html

The old rules for Nostalgia once kept by "The Keeper of the Rules" are also there. How many know who that is???

Joe

[OVSS Boss]

Lincoln, a "Woody" class is not AMA's Nostalgia class, there can be a difference.

Marc

[jtlsf5]

Lincoln, a "Woody" class is not AMA's Nostalgia class, there can be a difference.

Marc

True. Visalia's woody class is RES excluding all the SAD airplanes (Soprano-Ava-Danny) and the like. They don't exclude glass fuses, but the wings must be built up.

AMA Nostalgia makes no mention of materials, only original publication date for plans or release date for commercial kits. Specific, minor modifications may be made and are included in the rules. You can find the Nostalgia rules on the AMA website.

JT

[F3X]

Hmmm, it would be more interesting if a std set of rules were used. Anyone care to offer up a idea?

[Thermaler]

I believe the standard rules are a built up wood wing and the rest at the mood of the CD.

Joe

[F3X]

I believe the standard rules are a built up wood wing and the rest at the mood of the CD.

Joe

That would be funny if it weren't so true!

Any chance in :censored: the Woody class can find a common ground and go with a single set of rules?

I like Ray's rules set, basically if you build it's OK.

[jtlsf5]

Hmmm, it would be more interesting if a std set of rules were used. Anyone care to offer up a idea?


RES started out before the steroid-induced HLs came along. It was intended as function limited Unlimited for older 3 function designs to be competitive, but the technology race produced a class of airplanes that could outlaunch and outland anything that existed before them. Woody class was a compromise idea the excluded the composite RES planes, limiting to pure built up, as the original intent was aimed at.

I don't think there would be much support for a unified set of rules, as AMA classes are based on span, and now function. The only break from this criteria is Nostalgia, which is only limited by year of introduction to the public.

Best compromise in my mind is what exists, CD (or club) choice with proper notification. Hence CVRC's woody class and Woodcrafter, only two pure built up events I am aware of.

JT

[Ray Hayes]

Tough call to make about a Woody Rule, but the AMA rules for all sailplane classes allow any deviation to the stated rules as long as the change is announced prior to the contest.

So an AMA Woody rule could be created that could be altered to local sentiment. It's not easy, a lot of arguments insue, posters get all bent out of shape, etc.. Must help make the winter months pass quicker. :-)

One of the key things for a club to consider when thinking about a Woody event is what is the goal of the event. Is the club trying to bring back lost members, trying to create new members, or appeasing the current crop of woody flyers in respect to the sailplanes they are flying.

My Wood Crafter rules have been tested since 2002, I consider them logical and non restrictive. Woody rules that are restrictive means some folks are staying home, is this what your club wants ????

Most contests are attended by the local folks, so when in Rome .... BUT, a simple solution to Woody rules is to break it down into size and function (controls) classes, I.E.

RES, 2M, Standard, Unlimited, this opens up a Woody event rather than close it down.

I have done this since the beginning of Wood Crafters, also, in my view, the most fun is one of a kind classes. Plenty of pre announcement time has to be used for a One of a kind event so the guys can get them built.

I have been tempted since Wood Crafters began to make a Woody rules proposal to AMA, but worried that it would be construed as a push for my Sky Bench kit business.

Th most gratifying part of Wood Crafters was the number of Dad and Son teams that showed up. Reminded me of the past Soaring contests when we had kids flying in JR and Senior age classes ... huh Tom. If you search the Wood Crafters reports on my web, you'll see a very young Jeff Walters that so many are familiar with today. They have to start somewhere.

If possible, set up the Woody contest in the seeded Man on Man format, anything else teaches/requires sand bagging and that tends to wear pretty thin for most guys.

Ray
http://www.skybench.com
Home of Wood Crafters

[bjr_93tz]

I don't compete so people can ignore my opionion on the matter but it would be "nice" to have an all wood RES class.

No carbon, kevlar or glass at all. My 100" aeroflyte Albatross had none of that in it and it flew just fine off bungie, winch, slope and with an OS 10FSR in a pod. Just balsa, spruce, ply and covered in solarspan.

Running a 12" 50-60lb weak-link between the parchute and the towhook with no re-launches would negate people hiding some carbon in the sparcaps.

Rules would need to be very flexible though in keeping with the spirit of the class and to promote inclusiveness. First timers could be "run what you brung" but if some Joe "the plumber" or Joe "sixpack" keeps turning up comp after comp with a plane that bends the rules then a tap on the shoulder to bring something else next time would be in order.

Just my worthless 2cents worth.

Cheers
Brett

[jtlsf5]

My Wood Crafter rules have been tested since 2002, I consider them logical and non restrictive. Woody rules that are restrictive means some folks are staying home, is this what your club wants ????
Ray


Ray,
I agree with almost everything you said. There is one aspect of the Woodcrafter's event that I believe is restrictive and you should consider changing. Namely there restriction to one pilot per frequency. In the past this has limited your participation to around 60, assuming all the 72 and ham freqs were claimed. It also forced a potential participant to buy new equipment if their frequency was already claimed, then hope their new frequency didn't get gobbled up before their entry posted.

With the advent of 2.4, and in the name of expanding a unique, successful and interesting event, isn't it time that you open this up a bit? I doubt there would be that much protest to 2 or 3 pilots sharing a frequency, in fact it might create some new friendships if those on the same frequency end up timing for and keeping track of each other.

A little food for thought during those cold winter months.

JT

[Mark Miller]

In the past Ray has allowed sharing of frequencies when two folks decided to do it. My OFB Augie McKibben and myself did it for at least two years. That way you always have a built in timer and we decided who, what and when to fly.

With the advent of 2.4 it is a perfect set up for Woodcrafters folks to fly when you want.

Mark Miller

[Monster Mash]

I wish they would allow all wood planes in the woody class in Visalia. I have a Mystery Ship that I cannot compete with at the Fall Fest because it would be tough to fly against the open class planes, but it might do well in the woody class.

[Bob J]

At an event like the Nats why not have a Woody sub-class in Two-meter, Unlimited, and RES? First, second, and third for the best score with a Woody model.

[jtlsf5]

At an event like the Nats why not have a Woody sub-class in Two-meter, Unlimited, and RES? First, second, and third for the best score with a Woody model.

The AMA Nats run by AMA rules, there is no provision for subclasses. Trophies are only available for legitimate classes.

I actually think this is a good idea and might promote the wooden airplanes. Bob, why don't you take the initiative and find a way to fund trophies for this? I'm sure LSF could help you promote it.

JT

[jcstalls]

" why not have a Woody sub-class"

We do here in our regional SC2 contest. Although not a separate class when flying, the highest placed Woody flier is awarded. Could RES, 2M or open class.

Easy, cheap and simple!

Jared

[F3X]

I would like to see the woody class push the limits of wood construction at home. If you have a better idea or design and you build it it should be a woody.
I am saying I like most of Rays rules. It's open for something different.

RES class has been around a long time without any breakthroughs in design or technology until the Eastern Block Free flight guys started making RES models. They caught the USA crew nappin'.

It's very cool building a kit and seeing it fly. It's cool to be involved in RES but if someone can do it better and pass the knowledge down then we all benefit.

[Bob J]

The AMA Nats run by AMA rules, there is no provision for subclasses. Trophies are only available for legitimate classes.

I actually think this is a good idea and might promote the wooden airplanes. Bob, why don't you take the initiative and find a way to fund trophies for this? I'm sure LSF could help you promote it.

JT

My guess is that trophies could be purchased for $20-$25 each so for a single class the cost would be $60-$75. I'm not sure about Two-meter or Unlimited but I'll bet that if there were a Woody class in RES that the increase in entries would more than pay for the trophies.

[schrederman]

Quote>Running a 12" 50-60lb weak-link between the parchute and the towhook with no re-launches would negate people hiding some carbon in the sparcaps.


I believe the rules allow for carbon spars and glass fuselages. Mine are not hidden. In fact, I regularly show them off. The ENTIRE spar cap is carbon. If faced with the weak link, I would feel "restricted".

JW

[jbaird]

I would like to see the woody class push the limits of wood construction at home. If you have a better idea or design and you build it it should be a woody.
I am saying I like most of Rays rules. It's open for something different.


Tom, I hope you are saying that you would like to see no limits on control functions for Woody Class.

Woody Class limited to RES functions alone limits the creativity and performance of home brew wood constructed sailplanes.

My dream Contest rules for Woody Class would be:

No Limits on Control function.

No Limits on materials used for spar construction.

No Molded flying surfaces (IE Tail,Wings,D tube)

No Restriction on the type of construction for the fuselage. (molded glass/carbon OK)

Kits, as long as they meet the above criteria would be OK.

As far as subcategories go. (IE "Woody RES", Woody Full House") I don't think they are needed. If you feel outclassed performance wise, you will build a better plane.

I would love to see full house planes allowed in Woody Class, I feel that it would open up the creativity of the Home designer and possibly enhance the opportunities of the few US Sailplane Kit Manufacturers.

[Ray Hayes]

Also, I can see the NATS two meter becoming more popular too. I believe contest pilots will be attending fewer contests in 2009 and with the addition of a woody class at the Nats in all three size classes, it will give more reason to choose attending the NATS or parts of it.

Personnally, since Nostalgia has fallen into the open winch format, I can see my weary bones making the two days of NATS 2 Meter and the one day of RES with a Woody. The challenge of a woody beating a moldy would definetly be in play in the Man on Man format in these two size classes.

Some have said the open winch is the way the Nos use to be, but that depends on what level of contest is being referred to. Seems like the present day Nats lines up with the Orignal SOAR NATS and that had group call up and launch. Wasn't man on man, but it was closer.

MOST ALL THE CONTESTS IN THE DAYS OF NOSTALGIA ( THRU 1980 ) WERE CALL UP, NOT OPEN WINCH.

Ray
http://www.skybench.com
Home of Wood Crafters

[dawg]

RES class has been around a long time without any breakthroughs in design or technology until the Eastern Block Free flight guys started making RES models. They caught the USA crew nappin'.


Ummm…Those designs you speak of are copies of the USA designed Mark Drela Bubble Dancer. The original is lighter and better still.
:rolleyes:

[Jim Deck]

Instead of a separate class for all wood sailplanes, why not an award for the highest placing all-wood sailplane in each of RES, 2 Meter, and Unlimited? I think it would be simple to execute with only a post-competition examination to ensure that the sailplane met the "Woodie" classification. If that pilot also placed for AMA "wood", both awards should be given.

I'm thinking the interest shown in the Miles 2 meter wooden sailplane may breath more life into 2 Meter, the most challenging soaring event at the NATS. Anyone for a built-up 2M Duck?

[Ray Hayes]

Jim,

see post # 21 and 22. One first place trophy could go to the same person in all three classes... 1 thru 3 attracts more interest.

Ray
http://www.skybench.com
Home of Wood Crafters

[Thermaler]

Personnally, since Nostalgia has fallen into the open winch format, I can see my weary bones making the two days of NATS 2 Meter and the one day of RES with a Woody. The challenge of a woody beating a moldy would definetly be in play in the Man on Man format in these two size classes.

Some have said the open winch is the way the Nos use to be, but that depends on what level of contest is being referred to. Seems like the present day Nats lines up with the Orignal SOAR NATS and that had group call up and launch. Wasn't man on man, but it was closer.

MOST ALL THE CONTESTS IN THE DAYS OF NOSTALGIA ( THRU 1980 ) WERE CALL UP, NOT OPEN WINCH.

Ray
http://www.skybench.com
Home of Wood Crafters

I missed call up in Nostalgia too!! Open winch left to much time to lose consentration and gave way too much time to sand bagging.
It was the first open winch contest I have attended and was nowere near the fun of the open hi start ladder that Woodcrafters was.

Joe

[rdwoebke]

Some have said the open winch is the way the Nos use to be, but that depends on what level of contest is being referred to. Seems like the present day Nats lines up with the Orignal SOAR NATS and that had group call up and launch. Wasn't man on man, but it was closer.



Thinking out loud here, I wonder if you volunteered to CD the Nostalgia event at the 2009 Nats then perhaps you could offer to provide the LOFT winches to make it MOM? Marc has said that the reason that NOS was moved to open winch from MOM that it had been in years past is that NOS now being the first event at the soaring Nats is the day where the voulenteers

More thoughts outloud. Now that NOS no longer shares a day with hand launch, will the participation increase? It had about 30 registered contestants in 2007 and 2008. It is on a Sunday. Could we see 50 registered NOS contestants?

Yet more thoughts. I have flown the NOS nats now 3 times. Both the MOM variation and the 2007+ open winch variation. I liked the 2007 version since NOS was/is using "borrowed" winches from various clubs (rather than say in 2004 or 2003 where NOS was the last day of Nats and used the regular powerful LSF winches), it seemed to me that some winches were stronger than others and some might have had lighter line and I thought that was a good thing. Seemed that the variation in winches better allowed the variation in model sizes that makes NOS fun. Some folks were flying monster wing area planes like the Jeff and some folks had 100 inch span planes like the Oly. If you had a weak winged glider, you could have asked the CD to tell you which was the weakest winch with the lightest line and just launched using that winch. Doing that MOM with varied strength/line weight winches in play at the NOS nats might not work out as well.

Ryan

[OVSS Boss]

FYI Brian, since NOS is on it's own day, from what I know they will use LSF winches with the bigger line.

Marc

[Bob J]

Now that NOS no longer shares a day with hand launch, will the participation increase? It had about 30 registered contestants in 2007 and 2008. It is on a Sunday. Could we see 50 registered NOS contestants?

Ryan

Since you clearly possess knowledge about when NOS is to be flown, perhaps you also know what the rest of the schedule for the 2009 Nats is and would be willing to share that information with us. :D

[rdwoebke]

Since you clearly possess knowledge about when NOS is to be flown

I don't know what I'm supposed to know or not know and what I'm supposed to post or not post, so I'll refrain from saying any more than can be deduced with knowledge already posted on the internet:

Marc posted in the DLG forum at least a week ago that hand launch will get Monday and Tuesday after F3J and that it will share those days with electric soaring stuff.

Ray said earlier in this thread that if NOS is not going to be MOM (it has not been the last 2 years) that he is more interested in flying 2M and RES.

This leaves NOS getting a day of its own and no longer sharing a day with DLG. Elementry my dear Watson. ;-)

Ryan