Looking at a new Trex 600, question

[rkkennard]

I am looking at getting a new Trex 600, maybe gas, maybe electric.

Align offers a kit that includes everything except the radio and servos for either.

Is this the way to go or should I get one of the cheaper kits and select my own motor/engine, gyro, esc and up grades my self ?

And in the case of the electric 600, how large of battery is recommended for this and how much do the cost now ?

[WEFlyer]

Latest T-Rex 600 [Align T-REX 600 ESP Kit]
http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_info.php/cPath/2_382_383/products_id/29164

The above it the top of the line.

Recommended Batteries

22.2V 6S Li-Poly 4500~5000mAh battery

http://www.rctoys.com/rc-toys-and-parts/TP-5000-6SXV/RC-PARTS-THUNDER-POWER-6-CELL-LITHIUM-BATTERIES.html
Cost $300 for a 5000mAh. If you shop around you can find cheaper and still good.

Do some searches here and maybe Helifreak for batteries for the 600. You find a variety of posts and different recommendations.

As for adding your own parts, that is up to you. Some prefer stock, other prefer to add their own parts. Likely cheaper if you buy most of the stock parts except for servos.

[RC Man]

What is your budget?

[rkkennard]

[QUOTE=WEFlyer]Latest T-Rex 600 [Align T-REX 600 ESP Kit]
http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_info.php/cPath/2_382_383/products_id/29164

The above it the top of the line.

Recommended Batteries

22.2V 6S Li-Poly 4500~5000mAh battery

Looking at the ESP kit on the Align web site
http://www.align.com.tw/shop/product_info.php?cPath=22_25&products_id=2461

It ooks like it includes a "Li-Polymer 7.4V 1900mAh 18C" receiver battery, also a "Brand new 650L high efficiency high torque brushless motor".

Are these acceptable ?

Still need a gyro though....

The $300 battery is what makes me think glow.....

[rkkennard]

What is your budget?


I want a realiable set up first.

Hoping for a government bailout.....

[Andrew McGregor]

How long can you fly on $300 worth of fuel, compared to how long that battery will last?

For me, the battery is about 10x better value, but that really depends on your fuel prices.

[rkkennard]

How long can you fly on $300 worth of fuel, compared to how long that battery will last?

For me, the battery is about 10x better value, but that really depends on your fuel prices.


Thats the real question for me.....

How long of a usefull life, how many charge cycles can a $300 battery last/take using a decent charger and balancer, how much fly time can you expect per charge and how long does recharge take ?

Of course the glow engine will need a starter, glow igniter, fuel, glow plugs and is more messy.

[Gadget01]

Consider also the added noise and mess of a nitro, and the time needed to noodle with fuel-air mixtures with atmospheric pressure changes. Nitro engines are about a hobby all by themselves. Some really love the smell and the experience. I think those people have been sniffing nitro fumes too long. For me, nitro power was a source of frustration. I want to fly, not spend x-amount of time getting the engine to work right and spending time cleaning up after them. Your vehicle stinks of it after a while too unless you put it in the back of your truck.

Batteries have their limitations too, but for my $$, lipo power is the only way to go. Charge the pack, plug in into the ESC and fly... repeat- simple. Just don't abuse the pack by discharging it too far or charging without a balancer and it will give a long service life. It also helps a lot if you don't inflict blunt-force trauma.

You'll have to invest in a quality charger and balancer, and I recommend something capable of charging 10s like the Xtrema or TP1010c. I use the Xtrema and I'm very happy with it. 6S will get a 'Rex 600 flying, but you'll have more fun if you go with at least 8 to 10s based on what I've read.

The initial investment can be more painful vs the nitro route, but if you do it right the first time you'll avoid having to spend more later to upgrade. It's cheaper in the long run to invest in high quality gear from the get-go. You could think of buying the lipo in terms of buying a year's worth of nitro fuel up front.

[Greybird]

Well, Kind of like buying a years worth of nitro up front. If you crash a nitro, Their is no potential of losing all 10 gallons at once. :eek:

[Andrew McGregor]

What's the probability of writing off a pack in a crash? Not all that high. I've done it once, but that was about the worst possible crash on a heli with little protection for the pack (very thin plastic canopy, vertical dive into the ground... not good). So that makes me about 1 in 50 for pack damage. I actually think you're more likely to write off a nitro motor.

Use an LED lipo voltage alarm rather than a timer, use a good charger, always balance, and most packs are good for about 300 cycles, probably more. General rule is 70 minutes for a 1C charge and 50 for a 2C charge, so if you want to fly a lot you're up for two packs; if you want to fly continuously you need three or four packs and two chargers, or use A123s which can be charged in as little as 10 minutes with a big enough charger.

Other advantage of electric: once you have some packs, you can start looking for other models that will use that pack configuration, or two of them doubled up. So I have some 4s A123 models, some 3s 2500 models, some 5s 3700 models, and some that use very small packs.

[JustPlaneChris]

I fly both nitro and electric. Each have their good and bad points. I personally have found my nitro machines to be "fuel and fly" once set up. Contrary to what some folks experience, once I got the engine broken in and tuned there is very little fiddling with the mixture settings. The OS engine in my Knight 3D starts on the first bump of the starter every time and pulls like a mule.

Noise? Yes, nitro is noisier. But I don't fly a 600mm heli in the local park, so if I'm going to make a trip to the RC club field it matters not whether it's noisy or not.

Messy? Somewhat, but NOTHING like a nitro plane, which takes an oil bath every flight. One paper towel to wipe down the skids, blades, and tail boom and it's clean enough to chuck in the Volvo and hang on the wall at home.

If you chart out the costs long term for a 600mm helicopter, there is very little difference in the long run between nitro and electric. The biggest difference is with a nitro machine you get to buy your "battery" $25 at a time, instead of all at once. :)

My larger electric helis are both A123 powered (Swift and Protos), and I'm happy with the performance. I have no desire to purchase or care for $300 lipo packs. I've lost smaller packs due to crashes and random internal failures (puffing) and I would simply cry if it happened to a $300 pack.

-Chris

[Kregan]

I was going to post, but Chris conveyed my thoughts exactly.

One paper towel to clean up.
Never fiddle with my engine (OS sx .50)
2 glow plugs in a year maybe.

A123's in my 600e
Trex 600 is more fragile then a Raptor 50 nitro if you are learning.


I fly both nitro and electric. Each have their good and bad points. I personally have found my nitro machines to be "fuel and fly" once set up. Contrary to what some folks experience, once I got the engine broken in and tuned there is very little fiddling with the mixture settings. The OS engine in my Knight 3D starts on the first bump of the starter every time and pulls like a mule.

Noise? Yes, nitro is noisier. But I don't fly a 600mm heli in the local park, so if I'm going to make a trip to the RC club field it matters not whether it's noisy or not.

Messy? Somewhat, but NOTHING like a nitro plane, which takes an oil bath every flight. One paper towel to wipe down the skids, blades, and tail boom and it's clean enough to chuck in the Volvo and hang on the wall at home.

If you chart out the costs long term for a 600mm helicopter, there is very little difference in the long run between nitro and electric. The biggest difference is with a nitro machine you get to buy your "battery" $25 at a time, instead of all at once. :)

My larger electric helis are both A123 powered (Swift and Protos), and I'm happy with the performance. I have no desire to purchase or care for $300 lipo packs. I've lost smaller packs due to crashes and random internal failures (puffing) and I would simply cry if it happened to a $300 pack.

-Chris

[p4ddy]

In my case nitro would cost me loads more than leccy. Traveling costs to a site that allows nitro, then the probability of doing in 4 litres of nitro in one day. Leccy regardless of heli size i can fly almost anywhere where i live. Also is nitro like deisel in that you have to wear gloves to stop your hands & then in turn your clothes & car getting slimey??

[p4ddy]

Back to the question, from what i read of peoples Trex 600 set ups it seems most who like to do 3D or if your intentions are to do 3D then 9 times out of 10 they opt for a different motor than stock align motors. It's annoying that it's not available as a bare bones kit.

[arclite5]

The new 650L motor is supposedly really nice though. On the other hand, you can use the new Scorpion motors for a cheap powerful alternative..

[laughingstill]

IMO if you had had experience in tuning a nitro motor or have someone handy who is experienced that can help you, then go nitro OR electric. If you are a total newbie and this will be your first venture into a nitro machine by yourself, I would advise you to stay away from nitro. It does not take much or very long running a nitro motor lean to destroy it.
Electric will be much easier to setup and maintain so if you are by yourself you won't spen the bulk of your time trying to get the needles right..........Ron

[p4ddy]

Well that's made me very glad that intend on staying electric "mmmmm logo 500" also with electric you can hear that awsome blade noise.

[Tom Viper]

Both the Z-Power Z30A 1100 and the Z-Power Z50A 1180 are very nice motors on 6S.
They are both cheap and alot more powerfull then the Align XL AND 650L (Z50).
They won´t eat the inside of your Lipo packs either, like the Scoprions (and Align motors) can do if not carefull.

Now alot of you may think the Z30A 1100 is way to small right? Don´t be fooled by this motor, it pulls 3D just fine, and runs cold as well. A 15T or 16T mikado pinion will do the trick.

I would acctualy go for the old T600, its flies fine, and will probably be alot cheaper as well. No upgrades are needed, not one, even for hard 3D flying.

Here´s how we are flying them, the one in the video has a Z30 1100KV, 6S KongPowers and everything else is stock.

Inside: http://www.westcoastheliclub.se/prolle/600_indoor.wmv

Outside: http://www.westcoastheliclub.se/movies/kraftskiva.wmv

[learninginverted]

I used to fly a 450 size electric heli that ran on 3S lipos. The cost of my heli set up (beam 450) was approximately 800 USD. Each battery would last me approximately 6-8 mins of flight time. For an afternoon at the field with no charger, i would need at least 8 batteries to get me through, and perhaps 6 with a charger on hand. But even so, it is frustrating as, if you ran 2800rpm and 4-5 minute flights, i found that it was rare for a battery to hold similar performance once over 40 cycles. So my batteries cost almost as much as my heli, and i still had to continue to replace them.

With a nitro (granted 50 size) it is paying for your batteries $25 at a time. The thing about it is that the performance is reliable again and again. And if u wanted to fly longer in one particular afternoon, u could do so instantly without needing to buy more batteries.

It is easy to say the running costs even out over time. But as with everything esle, no one likes to bear for large, up front costs.

granted, i heard the A123s charge up in 10 minutes. But untill so, i am thus far much happier with my nitro.

[laughingstill]

I don't know what batteries you used but I have always bought high quality lipos and they have always lasted without losing power. If you are losing power in the lipos, your setup needs help, you are mistreating them, or you are buying inferior lipos and pushing them past their limits.
The performance for nitros is consistent BUT it is inferior to electrics.....period. So you really have to take that into consideration when you make that decision.
Bottom line, fly what you like and be happy flying.......Ron

[Andrew McGregor]

If your packs last 40 cycles, flying 4 minute flights, then you were abusing them. How, I'm not sure, but at 2800 on a 450, probably the issue was wrong gearing leading to overdischarge. I did that to a couple of packs early on, but since I figured out using LED alarms I have not killed a single pack from wear. That's about four hundred cycles between only three packs.

[learninginverted]

Good for you. Trouble is, i am not getting lipos to last as long as 100 cycles. And would have to spend another 300 dollars on batteries to see if you are right.

I ran a 3600KV scorpion motor, 150t main gear, 12t pinion, CC45 ESC, roughly 2800rpm, 95% throttle curve and a 3S 2200 Mah battery (Kong, Flight power), rated cont 25-30c, burst 50c. I would correct myself in the previous statement to say i was actually doing 5 minute flights, not 4. (sorry) But i typically put back roughly 70% back into the batteries after each flight charging at 1.2C.

At this point, u might be thinking to yourself that batteries weakening after 40 cycles are not possible or unlikely. I would agree as well, hence that is my dissappointment. There is also the risk of losing expensive batteries to crashes and simple mistakes such as over discharging due to incorrect flight time as u have mentioned.

I still do agree that nitro helis have the greater hassle of starting them up and cleaning them up after. It would be great to get back into electrics but only once batteries become dirt cheap for 50 size helis.

Are flight times longer for nitro helis too for the same given headspeed? I do not have hard statistics on this but my seat of pants experience thus far tells me so.

[laughingstill]

Flight times are longer but at the expense of performance.

[Andrew McGregor]

Or, you can re-gear, drop the headspeed a bit (which is fine because you have more torque), and get longer runtimes, at the expense of a bit less performance.

[JustPlaneChris]

Flight times are longer but at the expense of performance.Now that I'm flying both types of "fuel", I'm not so sure about that Ron! I would say performance is "different" between the two, but nitro is not really inferior. The power delivery is what's different, with electrics hitting hard and instantly where a nitro is softer at first and builds up. Kinda hard to describe, but the performance is definitely there.

Now that said, there are some insane electric setups out there that will spank a nitro in performance. But those setups typically only run 4-5 minutes and they abuse the hell out of the packs to deliver that kind of performance.

I still think that at this point in the technology curve, nitro has the economical advantage when you start getting into the big (600mm +) birds.

But as you say, fly what makes you happy! That's why I fly both. :cool:

-Chris

[laughingstill]

I have even considered nitro as there are some SWEET nitro birds out there. I just can't do it yet. Maybe later though. My experience with an OS32 in a Shuttle killed it for me as well as racing my Andy Brown Eagle .90 (Outrigger boat) for 3 years...........Ron

[Greybird]

Chris, any nitro heli I have seen flying kicked a--. Gas and go. I saw some minor fiddling with a carb. All flights at least 10 minutes. I will have one, maybe next summer. I wished the nitro field was not so far away. The Swift is as big as I will go electric.

[Greybird]

Ron, from what I read, the O.S. Hyper 50 requires very little fiddling.

[JustPlaneChris]

Ron, from what I read, the O.S. Hyper 50 requires very little fiddling.Boy that's the truth. Mine has started on the first bump of the starter every single time, and not much else except fuel and go. You typically only need to adjust the mixture if there is an extreme change in weather (temp or pressure). The engine in my Hawk Pro (Toki .40) has not had the needle touched for 2 gallons of fuel, and that's about 3.3 hours of flight time.

Anyway, I'm not sure if we are helping the original poster... but it's an interesting discussion regardless. If you'd asked me a year ago if I'd be flying two nitro helis next year, I would have said "HELL NO!" And yet here we are. :)

-Chris

[Greybird]

I don't know Chris. I get tired of the battery thing. I'll have some questions for you next year when I go to the darkside. :eek:

[rkkennard]

Chris, any nitro heli I have seen flying kicked a--. Gas and go. I saw some minor fiddling with a carb. All flights at least 10 minutes. I will have one, maybe next summer. I wished the nitro field was not so far away. The Swift is as big as I will go electric.

Is that the Swift 16 or the 550 ? Or does it matter a whole lot ?

Thanks

[laughingstill]

You typically only need to adjust the mixture if there is an extreme change in weather (temp or pressure).
-Chris
And we (Greybird and I ) live in the land of the ever changing climate :) I ran nitro boats for 3 years and I am telling you here in FL. you will fiddle with the carb a lot. The guys at the field are always doing so. I guess it really depends on where you live.....Ron

[JustPlaneChris]

True that, Ron. Well there's always technology to circumvent the twiddling:

http://www.readyheli.com/CSM_CarbSmart_p/csm0050.htm

:cool:

-Chris

[rkkennard]

Anyway, I'm not sure if we are helping the original poster... but it's an interesting discussion regardless. If you'd asked me a year ago if I'd be flying two nitro helis next year, I would have said "HELL NO!" And yet here we are. :)

-Chris

Oh you all are helping the original poster. And thanks a bunch.

The 600 helis with the required 6s 5000 batteries are a breaking point for sure.
The Trex 500 E with it's 38" main rotor sounds about right but as I understand it's a bit heavy.

[Greybird]

rkkennard. Do you already fly heli's?

[JustPlaneChris]

The Trex 500's do tend to weigh a bit more than some others in their class. The MSH Protos is the lightweight of the bunch, typically coming in ~200g lighter than a Trex 500 with equivalent power system. As a result of the lower weight, they can get by with lower headspeed and therefore lower power consumption. I've flown my Protos on some uber-cheap 20c 2250 3S packs wired in series as 6S and got 5 minutes of spirited sport flying without pushing the packs beyond 80% of their capacity. My regular packs are 7S A123, which gives me 6 minutes of whatever I can ask it to do.

So many toys, so little time. :)

-Chris

[p4ddy]

So many toys, so little time. :)

-Chris



Quit moaning about it & give me your swift :cool: Then you'll have an extra hour or so each day (depending on exactly how many times you charge & fly your A123 set up ;) ) :D

[rkkennard]

rkkennard. Do you already fly heli's?

Had an older Trex 450 years ago, or it seens like.
Would like to get back into it.
Got Realflight sim for what it's worth for now.

[WEFlyer]

Oh you all are helping the original poster. And thanks a bunch.

The 600 helis with the required 6s 5000 batteries are a breaking point for sure.
The Trex 500 E with it's 38" main rotor sounds about right but as I understand it's a bit heavy.


Yea, the batteries for the 600 can be a breaking point but if you shop around say Zippy's you might found it more affordable. I priced TrueRC 5000mAh 22.2V 6S1P*pack*at $145. Not much more expensive than batteries for the T-Rex 500. So far I have read positive comments for the battery.

As for T-Rex 500 being a bit heavy, depends on what you want to do with the helicopter. One of the guys in another forum says he lives near the shore and flies the T-Rex 500 in a field off the ocean where the winds are over 10 mph a lot of the time and he loves the heli. He says it flies great in the wind. That's one reason I'm looking at it.

For a 550 blade heli, the extra weight in the TT E550 allows for a very stable heli in hover and good for F3C/scale flying but not great for hard 3D flying. The Swift 16 with its light weight would be better for 3D.

Another poster flies a scale Hughes 500D with T-Rex 600 mechanics with 10T pinion at slight over 1400RPM HS and gets 10 minutes out of his 6s 5000 battery.

It all depends on what you want to do with the heli, how you set it and how you fly it.

[rkkennard]

Yea, the batteries for the 600 can be a breaking point but if you shop around say Zippy's you might found it more affordable. I priced TrueRC 5000mAh 22.2V 6S1P*pack*at $145. Not much more expensive than batteries for the T-Rex 500. So far I have read positive comments for the battery.

As for T-Rex 500 being a bit heavy, depends on what you want to do with the helicopter. One of the guys in another forum says he lives near the shore and flies the T-Rex 500 in a field off the ocean where the winds are over 10 mph a lot of the time and he loves the heli. He says it flies great in the wind. That's one reason I'm looking at it.


I've got a bit of wind here too.
But I think I'll try a Trex 500.

Next: Whats a good charger for LiPos and does anyoun make the A123 battery packs, but thats a different thread.

Thanks all.

[longdollar]

I have two NEU Power 4s Lipos (4100)

Do you think I could run these in series on the TRex 600 for a total of 8s and 8200?

[JustPlaneChris]

If you ran them in series, you'd only have 8S 4100. If you put them in parallel, you would have 4S 8200. You'd need four of those packs to end up with an 8S 8200.

-Chris

[Andrew McGregor]

And, yes you can run 8s on a T-Rex 600, but you need a different motor and (probably) pinion than comes in the stock kit.

At which point you're probably better off with a heli that doesn't come with all that electrics, so you can mix and match.

BTW, 8s 4100 is going to be a ton of energy for a 600... lots of flight time out of that kind of setup. I get about 8 minutes out of a Raptor 50 conversion from 5s 3700, 8s 4100 is nearly twice the energy.

[longdollar]

How about the weight for the Trex 600?

These batteries are around 425 grams each.

[longdollar]

OK - I got the Trex 600 together. I plan to run it with the stock Align BL650 motor, and a Neu Power 4s1p 4100.

Would the stock 10 tooth pinion gear be a good choice?

[Andrew McGregor]

BL650 is a 6s motor! You're going to need a high-tooth pinion to get any headspeed on 4s, and I'm pretty sure the current will be huge.

[desert_flyer]

IMO, it's all about how much you want to fly. When I go out to the field, I like to fly a lot, but I know others who will spend 8 hours at the field and only fly twice.

I have two ships that see a lot of flying each time I go out.

The first is a Trex 600n with the OS50 hyper. It never needs more than a couple of clicks of adjustment and it has plenty of power. I use it as a crash and basher to push my skills down low. Never more than a couple hundred dollars to fix. Having crashed a few lipo powered electrics, I know that can be much more expensive.

Second is a heavily modded Trex 500. This one is a SK-360 flybarless setup with a Scorpion motor powered by 6SA123s. I get 4 minutes 3D flight time with a 2750rpm headspeed and the heli weighs 3lb 14oz. The kicker is that it only takes around 6-7 minutes to recharge using 2X deep cycle batts and a zip line. Because it has no flybar, it is light, powerful and extremely agile (270 deg/sec cyclic). And totally locked in - no drifting in different orientations. This is the best of both worlds and then some...

So far I have >250 cycles on the 6S pack with no deterioration - this is with a charge rate of 12-14A!!! That's 30 cents per flight so far...