Another Electric Conversion of the Hangar 9 Sukhoi

[Geoff Dryer]

I decided to buy the Hangar 9 Sukhoi SU-26MM for my next project. I managed to get it just before the price went up by $200.00
(http://www.hangar-9.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=HAN1225)

Because I am an electric flyer I decided do do this as an electric conversion.
I thought I would try the low end (price) motor and ESC first to see if they are up to the task. I purchased the HXT 80-100-130 motor and the Turnigy Sentilon 100A speed controller ( http://www.hobby-city.com). Total investment was about $250.00. I wanted to make sure that this combination would work running using 12S lipos. I will likely run 4-6S packs in a 12S-2P configuration.

In order to test the motor I built a test stand that would allow me to also measure thrust using a digital fish scale.

HXT 80-100-130 motor
Turnigy Sentilon 100A speed controller
Xoar 27x10 propeller
4- 6S Hyperion LVX 5000 batteries 12S-2P

40 lbs 11 oz thrust
116 Amps
5215 Watts

The bad new is speed controller loses timing with the motor when I moved the throttle too quickly. I tried the timing settings on the speed controller. I already had it on the high timing setting which was definately the best. It will however work fine if I am gentle on the throttle but this will not likely work too well when hovering, so I guess I am in the market for a better speed controller. Anybody have any ideas!

I am using the same Turnigy Speed Controller on my Hyperion YAK 180 (Hyperion motor) and it works just fine. I guess that the programming was not designed for the mass of the big HXT motor.

More details later on the build of the plane.

[Yardbee]

Hi Geoff: Have You Looked Into the Castle Creations HV 110 Speed Controller? The Specs Do Not List the Maximum Burst Current, But Will Run @ 110 Amps Continuous.

Cheers: Joe

[jfetter]

HXT 80-100-130 motor
Turnigy Sentilon 100A speed controller
Xoar 27x10 propeller
4- 6S Hyperion LVX 5000 batteries 12S-2P

40 lbs 11 oz thrust
116 Amps
5215 Watts


Geoff,

What are you seeing for RPM's?

Jack

[appleflyer]

cool, im doing a similar conversion here:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=901041

i would like to see how this one is going turn out.

[appleflyer]

what watt meter are you using for that?

[Geoff Dryer]

AppleFlyer - I was already following your thread with interest. I was trying to avoid purchasing an expensive (but probably really great) Jeti ESC.

I just found a fellow club member who can lend me a Castle 110HV for testing. We have not had too much luck with the Castle HV controllers in our club though.

I am using a Watt's Up meter that did not smoke at 115 Amps so I am impressed.

JFetter - I don;t have an RPM meter but If I can borrow one I will send you the numbers.

[bsipro]

hey Geoff Dryer
I'm glad to se you started your project. I would see what type of performance you get out of using 12s 1p 5000mah. I think you can get the same performance with a lot less weight. I have been flying my suk on 12s 2p 4200mah and the flying weight is 23.5lb. if you can save 3.lb on li-po's and 1-2 lb. on the motor / esc that will bet you in the 19lb. range. the guys at 3D hobby are flying a 35% close to that weight on 12s1p 5000mah. If I were to to redo my suk I would look in to a lighter motor than the Hacker A100 it is 4.5lb and it needs a lot of mah.
you will need to add wieght to the nose of the plane if you have a light motor. mine was right on CG but the motor and ESC is the same weight as the DA85
you should be in good shape if you keep the RX batterys up front and the lipos on the fuel tank mount
let me know if you have any questions i will be following your build
Ron

[Geoff Dryer]

Hello BSIPRO;

I contemplated a Neu geared motor and Steve Neu sugggested a 1527 1.5Y. The issue is that this light motor would likely require weight in the nose of the plane even if I pushed the batteries as far forward as possible.

I have ordered the Flightpower Evolite 6s 4270 packs. They are only 580 grams each. At a 100 amps I came to the conclusion that a 2P configuration would be necessary.

[jfetter]

Hello BSIPRO;

I contemplated a Neu geared motor and Steve Neu sugggested a 1527 1.5Y. The issue is that this light motor would likely require weight in the nose of the plane even if I pushed the batteries as far forward as possible.

I have ordered the Flightpower Evolite 6s 4270 packs. They are only 580 grams each. At a 100 amps I came to the conclusion that a 2P configuration would be necessary.

I think he was saying that the Turnigy seems completely overweight (some 1,600 grams) compared to the larger Hacker and Axi motors at half that weight which people routinely use to power 50cc conversions (5330's and A60's)...

Jack

[MarkF]

My Neu powered 30% yak came out way tail heavy. So I took the 2 elevator servos out of the tail and moved only 1 of them into the fuse and made a double pull pull system. I had to add 2 lbs of lead to get my plane to ballance before and it weighed over 20 lbs. Since my mod it now weighs in at 18.7 lbs. It took a little work to do but was worth it to save all that weight.

Mark

[Geoff Dryer]

MarkF - Which Yak is that?

[MarkF]

It's the 30% magichand yak from TBM.

Mark

[Geoff Dryer]

Here are the components (other than the motor and ESC) that I have sourced for this project:

4 - FlightPower Evolite 6S-4270 batteries (580g each)
JR-790 PCM Receiver
Smart-Fly Power Expander Pro with failsafe switch
Duralite 2 cell A123 receiver pack (2300 mah)
3 - Hitec HS-5955TG servos
2 - Hitec HS-5985 servos
4 - MPI 1.25" aluminum servo arms (MXKA1251 www.maxxprod.com)
1 - MPI 1.5" aluminum servo arm (MXKA1501 www.maxxprod.com)
3 - 36" Hitec heavy duty twisted servo extensions
1 - 24" Hitec heavy duty twisted servo extensions
4 - 12" Hitec heavy duty twisted servo extensions
M5 x 60mm bolt to attach the spinner to the HXT motor
MPI 3.75" aluminum spinner
5" aluminum hub main wheels (grass fields)
1.75" tail wheel

The plane comes with all surfaces hinged and sealed (except the rudder). The only real work so far is installing the pilot, dash and gluing the windscreen to the canopy. Gluing the canopy turned out to be a real pain as it is difficult to hold the windscreen in place while the glue dries. I used lots of masking tape.

With the big servos running at 6V I decided to use a Smart-Fly Power Expander. This provides power for the servos rather than running power through the receiver. The failsafe switch is electronic so no worries about a mechanical switch failure. The Power Expander also provides regulated 5V for the receiver. The Duralite A123 pack has a built in balancer.

[appleflyer]

nice. so you are building a sukhoi in this thread, and the cap 580 in you're other thread?

[Geoff Dryer]

FlyRobert is building the Cap. We just happen to be using the same HXT motor.

[appleflyer]

ok, i got confused for a bit and was thinking that you were building both planes.
is there any updates on the build?

[Geoff Dryer]

Appleflyer - No new updates on the build other than I am trying to borrow a Castle 110HV ESC for testing. Two of our club members were ready to lend me one when they discovered that they had 85 HVs instead.

I forgot to mention that I purchased a wing bag from www.hobby-pak.com (WBD01). They just fit in the bag although it is a bit of a tight squeeze. I have several of the Hobby-pak bags and they are really well constructed.

[Geoff Dryer]

I have not yet been able to borrow a Castle 110HV ESC for testing but I am hopeful. I have just found out that I cannot easily source the FlightPower EvoLite 4270 batteries. I have instead decided to try the Hobby City 6S-4000 20C batteries at $75.00 US each. You certainly can't beat the price! I will test these batteries in other planes first. In a 12S-2P configuration I won't be pushing them too hard.

I am kind of running out of things to do until I get batteries and an ESC.

[Geoff Dryer]

I am still waiting for the batteries from Hobby City to arrive and I have found a Castle HV110 ESC that I can test with but I won't get my hands on it until the end of the month.

I have been doing some small things. I managed to enlarge the blade opening on my Spinner. It was rather an interesting exercise in 3D geometry. My good friend Gerry made me a spinner balancing device from a steel rod that tapped threads onto. This worked great. I did need to trim a little more on one side to get it balanced. I also installed 4 rare earth magnets on the hatch. This will help to stop it from vibrating.

[Major_Smackdown]

Geoff, have you considered A-123's for power packs ? Just wondering. I know that they're heavier than lipos but can be charged super fast - and deliver tons of current... not sure about the weight involved in getting the endurance to fly IMAC sequences though.. ??

[Geoff Dryer]

I don't think that A123 batteries would be too practical from a weight point of view as they are only about 70% of the watt density of lipos. I am already estimating about 5 lbs of batteries on board. If the Hobby City batteries work out then they would also be cheaper than A123 cells.

To get the equivalent flight time in A123 cells I would need at least 14S-3P
(2300 mah cells so equivalent to a 12S 6900 lipo pack) which is 42 cells. At 70g each it would be 2940 g (6.5 lbs)

I am using an Duralite A123 (2S) pack for the receiver.

[karl k]

Good to see the pipe insulation came in handy!!

Looking good.

Karl

[Geoff Dryer]

And the someone who gave me the pipe insulation was Karl. I new it would come in handy some time. Karl has a new Hangar 9 Pawnee powered by A123 batteries. It flys amazingly slow and looks very scale.

[Geoff Dryer]

My Hobby City batteries and my Castle Creations 110 HV speed controller arrived this week and I did some more testing.

I am happy to report that the Castle 110 HV did not exhibit any problems keeping in time with the motor. I moved the throttle quite briskly and the the motor did not skip a beat.

I set the ESC using the Castle Link:

V1.55 firmware
No Brake
Motor Start Power = Low(39)
Throttle Response = Low(2)
Motor Timing = Standard Advance

On the test stand I was the following numbers:

HXT 80-100-130 motor
Castle 110 HV speed controller
Xoar 27x10 propeller
4- 6S Zippy 4000 (20C) 12S-2P
39 lbs 11 oz thrust
104.5 Amps
4463 Watts

This was on the first charge of the Zippy batteries so I expect them to work a little better after a few charges. This is only 1 lb less thrust on 750 watts less so I assume that the ESC is doing a better job.

You may recall that my initial testing with the Turnigy ESC:

HXT 80-100-130 motor
Turnigy Sentilon 100A speed controller
Xoar 27x10 propeller
4- 6S Hyperion LVX 5000 batteries 12S-2P
40 lbs 11 oz thrust
116 Amps
5215 Watts

[feathermerchant]

FWIW, Castle recommends low advance for outrunners.
You can also probably set the throttle response to 3.

[mpope1]

I have been using 2 4s 5000 zippys in an 8s set up. About 70-75 amps and the batteries barely get warm. They have abouy 15 cycles on them, what a bang for the buck!

[Geoff Dryer]

I was looking for some suggested settings from Castle but did not find any. Did you find a document some where? The current settings are probably a safe place to start. I will change play with the settings again when I fly the plane.

[RiBell]

I have been using 2 4s 5000 zippys in an 8s set up. About 70-75 amps and the batteries barely get warm. They have abouy 15 cycles on them, what a bang for the buck!
Not to go off topic on Geoff here. But a question.
Are they the 15C or 20C zippy's?
I'm looking at the Zippy 5000-5S to go 10S at most likely the same 70-75 amp.
Rick

[feathermerchant]

I was looking for some suggested settings from Castle but did not find any. Did you find a document some where? The current settings are probably a safe place to start. I will change play with the settings again when I fly the plane.


http://www.castlecreations.com/support/documents/Phoenix_User_Guide.pdf

P6, Setting #5

This is a PDF of the instructions that come with each controller.

[bsipro]

Hey all
I flew the Sukhio with 3500watt's @19Lb. It flys great there is info on my post

[Geoff Dryer]

RiBell - The Zippy batteries that I bought are the 6S-4000 rated at 20 to 30C.

feathermerchant - Thanks for point out the information in the manual (imagine that!). The standard advance is labelled "Almost always the best balance of power and efficiency for any motor. This is the factory setting".

bsipro - At 19lb it must float forever. I assumed that the equivalent of 50cc gas motor would not be enough for this plane.

[bsipro]

Hey Geoff Dryer
It floats, I was suprised that it flys so well

[RiBell]

RiBell - The Zippy batteries that I bought are the 6S-4000 rated at 20 to 30C
Geoff:
I'm looking for a 10S set-up; otherwise I'd grab a bunch of the same batt's. The 5S packs don't seem to drop off to the 15C rating, or jump a bunch in price.
Rick

[Geoff Dryer]

RiBell - I see what you mean about no choice for 5S. This is the best that they have in 20C but none in stock

ZIPPY-R 4500mAh 21-35C 5S1P
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=6347&Product_Name=ZIPPY-R_4500mAh_21-35C_5S1P

[Geoff Dryer]

I am getting really close to completion! All that is left to do is the wiring for the batteries.

Today I built and installed the battery tray. Per my original estimate the batteries are pretty much over the CG. I always like to make the battery tray adjustable if I can. This makes changing the CG easy and I also needed to be able to move the tray out of the way in order to install the front wing bolts.

[RiBell]

RiBell - I see what you mean about no choice for 5S.
I'll most likely go with these ones (http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=6352&Product_Name=ZIPPY-H_5000mAh_5S1P_20-30C_Lipoly_Pack) A little over the $100 price point but still a fairly attractive price.

Back to Geoff's regular scheduled thread.
I like the batt tray. I need to do something like that on my Solant as the batt need to go so far forward that I can't get my hand in to do up batt straps and a removable tray that I could attack the batt to with a bolt in the back would make batt changes a lot easierRick

[bsipro]

hey Geoff Dryer
what is the weight on your plane with the batteries ?
I put the A100 back in my Sukhio, I think that 4500 watt's or more is were you need to be with this plane. it flys real good at 19.5lb though.
can wait to see how your plane comes out. you are going to love it

[Geoff Dryer]

I attempted to weigh it using a poor sling arrangement and my fish scale. Looks like it is a few ounces over 24 lbs with the batteries on board.

I completed the wiring this evening so other than setting the throws it is ready to go.

[Geoff Dryer]

A few more details on the final stage of this build.

[Geoff Dryer]

I pulled out the scale again now that I have all the wiring installed.

Weight without the Lipos: 19 lb 2 oz (8673 g)
4 - 6S 4000 batteries: 5 lb 2 oz (2340 g)
Grand Total: 24 lb 5 oz (11013 g)

I emailed someone who just sold their Sukhoi. His equipped with a DA85 (gas)and canister was 22 lbs (dry). With 32 oz of fuel that brings it to about 24 lbs. I am someout surprised that my electric configuration is that close.

[Geoff Dryer]

Unfortunately the forecast for the forseeable future is nothing but rain. I am itching to get the Sukhoi in the air but I guess I will need to be patient.

[RiBell]

Unfortunately the forecast for the forseeable future is nothing but rain. I am itching to get the Sukhoi in the air but I guess I will need to be patient.
Ya when Environment Canada; has a rain fall warning for an area where we have a lot of rain anyway :(
I don't think the maiden flight will be this week-end
Rick

[Geoff Dryer]

I was not very happy with the tailwheel assembly because the spring did not seem to be strong enough and the bellcrank (arm) was very thin. I happened to find some heavier springs at Home Depot and I made a new heavier arm. I also noticed that the axle was very much smaller than the hole where it meets the carbon fiber tail piece. I added a piece of brass tubing which made the fit much better.

[Geoff Dryer]

If the weather forecast is correct then I hope to get the maiden flight(s) in tomorrow. Today I thought that I should make sure that it will in fact fit inside my Toyota Rav4. No Problem! I pushed the passenger seat all the way forward and down, removed the head rest and stuck the plane in tail first. It may be hard to get my coffee out of the cup holder but it fits with at least an inch to spare.

[RiBell]

Today I thought that I should make sure that it will in fact fit inside my Toyota Rav4.
That's always a good thing. :)
It may be hard to get my coffee out of the cup holder but it fits with at least an inch to spare.
OH the horrors :eek: might have to hold it while driving :D :D
Actually it looks like it fits pretty good with the tail on. Sure makes field assembly a lot quicker

[Tracon]

LOL now you know what Beverly and I go through everytime we head to Chilliwack..

I always have to make sure a plane will fit before I build it...

Looks Great !!!

Good luck with the flight !

Just one other note Geoff, I was at our monthly club meeting tonight and I saw a copy of that article you wrote on your other big bird in model airplane news...

They said anyone could take the magazines if they wanted them, so I grabbed it for you...next time we're coming to town we'll swing by burnaby to see if you're there.

All the best,

Sam

[Geoff Dryer]

Thanks Sam.

I did actually measure the inside of the vehicle before I ordered the Sukhoi. I knew that it would fit (in length) but I was unsure if I would have to remove the horizonal stabs for transport. Luckily I do not have to do any disassembly.

The bigger problem is that currently I can only bring one large plane to the field at a time. I guess it is time to look at a trailer.

This morning the sun is shining but there is a howling gale. They say that the winds will slow down this afternoon so I am hopeful for a maiden today.

[RiBell]

I guess it is time to look at a trailer.
Geoff:
Trailer? Ya I need one too :o
A number of years ago I read about a trailer. Some guy had written into a magazine, as he had sold his truck and bought a motorcycle. Two motorcycles later he still hadn't replaced his truck, so he built a trailer for the bike; from lightweight square tubing and aluminum sides. He used one of those truck hard tonneau covers. If I remember he had said that the all up weight of the trailer was 300ish lbs. My only thing is where to store the trailer.
Rick

[Geoff Dryer]

Today's maiden of the Sukhoi was short and had a very high P factor!

It was really windy but I did not think that the 24lb bird would mind too much. I throttled up and it leapt into the air at about half throttle. On low rates it was very stable despite the wind. No trim was required. Inverted was hands off. I switched to high rates and the roll rate was great. I was just about to try a little knide edge when the motor quit. I cycled the throttle and nothing. Luckily I had lots of altitude and was able to bring the plane around for a reasonable landing.

The Castle 110 HV is definately smoked. The question is why? I was flying at about half throttle so I should not have been pulling any more than 50 amps.
All components including the ESC were luke warm after the flight. I tested the motor at home with another ESC and it seems fine. On the weekend I will put the motor on the test stand and run it for three minutes to see if it behaves itself. I have order a replacement ESC.


Maiden Flight Video
There was a second person taking video which I will post later.

www.youtube.com/v/WcrdR3HohMg

[RiBell]

I was just about to try a little knife edge when the motor quit. I cycled the throttle and nothing. Luckily I had lots of altitude and was able to bring the plane around for a reasonable landing.
Bummer on the ESC. Glad it happened up high enough for you to make a safe landing

[jfetter]

The Castle 110 HV is definately smoked. The question is why? I was flying at about half throttle so I should not have been pulling any more than 50 amps.

I had a Jeti Spin 99 do the same thing on a brand new 2M Impact on the first flight at 50% power. I installed a new one and it's been fine ever since, Jeti took it back and replaced it no questions asked. Don't get worried about something else wrong, it was likely a faulty ESC only...

Jack

[172AMD]

Geoff, here are a couple of pics I took.

Dave.

[Geoff Dryer]

Thanks for the pictures Dave. Also thanks for the remarks jfetter.
I took the the ESC and motor out of the plane and did a thorough inspection. Everything except the ESC seems OK. Looks like I might have a new Castle HV 110 as early as Monday.

I left the Current Limiting setting on the ESC to the factory default (Normal). I would assume that this setting should have have protected the ESC from overamperage condition. This makes me think that either the ESC was faulty (as jfetter noted) or that there is some other problem.

The capacitors on the ESC look ok but the components at the other end are scorched. I am not an electronics person but I think that these are FETS?

I recently read an old thread on ripple overvoltage. The length of the battery wires were mentioned as a cause of this. I think they stated that it was recommended that the total length of wire between the batteries and ESC be no longer than 12 inches. My wiring is as short as possible but it is longer than a foot.

[jfetter]

I recently read an old thread on ripple overvoltage. The length of the battery wires were mentioned as a cause of this. I think they stated that it was recommended that the total length of wire between the batteries and ESC be no longer than 12 inches. My wiring is as short as possible but it is longer than a foot.

Geoff,

I routinely exceed the 12" rule, it's all but impossible not to. I have 4 planes running Jeti Spin 99 controllers as well as a dozen running lower amp setups and I've never seen an issue. I know you are in a grey area here but don't let it worry you, if you start thinking of all the things that might have caused it you'll drive yourself crazy. I'd say by the time I add the series harness and arming switch to the ESC extension I routinely make for each plane that I have 18" between battery and ESC...

Jack

[Jeffery]

I blew a CC P110HV up on just a run up at nowhere near 110A, Castle replaced it no problem. Both the second one I bought and the replacement I got from Castle have been fine. Sometimes things just blow up, I guess.

I always set my current limiting to "Insensitive", that setting is still covered under warranty.

[robn]

Hi Geoff. Sorry to hear about the ESC. The plane looks great, and good job on getting to the ground without issues. I imagine the p-factor was HUGE! Judging by the way the leaves were blowing around on the ground in the video, it must have been pretty windy. Just a thought, and you know how I play to the worst case scenario, but I wonder if the wiring from the batteries to the ESC may need to be up-sized. As wire size increases, resistance decreases. As resistance decreases, voltage drops are reduced, and as the voltage is held higher, current decreases. Having said all that, I may be splitting hairs. The wire length mentioned is to minimize voltage drop, though it sounds like you should be OK there. If you want to borrow my data logger for your next flight to do some statistical analysis, let me know.

[robn]

Geoff, I had another thought on the smoked ESC issue, that may put your mind at ease. If one of the mosfets was flakey, or if the solder joint on the circuit board to one of the fets was less than perfect, that would cause the ESC to fail. The fets are sized to work together, and if one fails, then the demands on the others can go beyond thier design limits. Once this happens, the magical smoke that electronic components operate on gets out. I have a tool on back-order that is supposed to put the smoke back in electronic components, but the supplier does not have a delivery date as yet, LOL.
As to another issue, the spark on arming can cause problems beyond damaging the arming plug, and socket. Without going deeply into electronic theory, when the batteries are connected to the ESC, significant current in-rush occurs. At that time there is a voltage spike, then a subsequent drop as voltage stabilizes through the capacitors on the ESC. One way to reduce this problem is to slow the charge time to the capacitors on the ESC. To do this, you can add a secondary arming shunt that contains a resistor. A resistor with a value of 500k or more, in a 1/2 watt rating should work nicely. How it works is when it is time to arm the ESC, plug in the shunt with the resistor first. The resistor will slow the charge time of the ESC sufficiently to reduce the current in-rush, which will reduce the spark at the main arming plug. After the resistor shunt is plugged in, then plug in the main arming plug. Remove the resistor shunt, and go fly. To put the current and voltage issue in perspective, if I am welding 1/4 inch mild steel, I run about 110 amps at about 22 volts!

See you at the field, rob..

[Geoff Dryer]

Thanks for the comments Rob. Not that I disagree with you but I read in the Castle Support area that the spark is annoying but otherwise not destructive to the ESC. In fact they mention that any kind of spark suppression could be harmful. Anyway this is what is says about the subject on their website LOL.

"When I plug in my high voltage battery pack (4s-12s lipo, 12-20 NiMH) into my Phoenix HV or Phoenix-125, etc. controller there is a large spark. Why?"

"The spark is your friend. If ever you plug your pack into your controller and you don’t see the spark, contact tech support at support@castlecreations.com or (913) 390-6939 and send the controller in for repair. Your capacitors will need to be changed. NEVER fly if you do not see the spark, especially with high voltage applications! The higher the voltage, the bigger the spark should be. Remember, the spark is your friend!!!"

[Geoff Dryer]

The dealer I bought the Castle 110HV speed controller from exchanged it for a new one this week. I mounted the motor and the new speed controller on the test stand and emptied two sets of batteries. I borrowed a Eagle tree logger to gather some data.

On the last run I ran 8 minutes using 3200 Mah at an average load of 42 Amps. The speed controller and batteries were barely warm. The motor did get hot (60 C +) . I was runnning the standard advance for motor timing so in order to be conservative I have now set the timing to low advance. I did not see any issues with the ESC losing timing with the motor on the low setting. I saw a slight difference in performance:

Motor Timing Low - 100 Amps, 37.5 Lbs thrust
Motor Timing Standard - 108 Amps, 41 Lbs thrust

I will now reassemble the plane and try again this weekend. Hopefully the magic smoke will stay in this time!

[feathermerchant]

Castle recommends low advance for outrunners. It's in their directions. If you experience loss of timing while throttling up (the most likely time), you can adjust the throttle response down a notch or two. Running a smaller prop will help also.

[Geoff Dryer]

Then why is the default setting Standard Advance?

The help indicates that low advance is more efficient (produces less heat). From my test run yesterday I would prefer that the motor run a little cooler so I will start with the Low Advance.

I had never used an Eagle Tree Data Logger before. It is certainly a useful little device!

[Jeffery]

Those extended static tests are murder. Go back to standard and put her in the air, then land and check the temps after a couple of minutes. The loss of sync would be a way more troublesome worry to me.

[Mark F]

Geoff, I run low timming on everything from Hacker outrunners to Neu geared inrunners. The speed controlls are just more happy there and the difference in the air is usually very minimal. The difference is more pronounced on fast jets and pylon racers. As far as the spark goes the only thing its hurting is the connector. I use a resistor as well to keep the spark down just to keep my gold plugs looking gold.

Mark

[Geoff Dryer]

Today I got two flights in. The ESC worked fine but it looks like the bearings in the motor are shot. I was noticing the odd click when I turned the motor over and it seemed to grind a bit when the motor was warm. I did not want risk a third flight. I will pull the motor apart this week and order some new bearings. I did read that this is an issue with these motors. I guess that $150.00 does not buy perfection.

I also noticed that the cowl is now cracked in two places right on the edge on the front. I am not too happy with the workmanship on this cowl. This will have to be repaired.

During the second flight the batteries shifted slightly. I will need to add some plywood stops front and aft to prevent this.

I will post more video and pictures when I receive them.

Overall I am very happy with how this plane performs. It flies very neutral and is the easiest plane to hover that I have flown to date. I did some IMAC type maneuvers and it tracked as straight as an arrow. I can't wait to fly it again.

[RiBell]

Today I got two flights in. The ESC worked fine but it looks like the bearings in the motor are shot.


Overall I am very happy with how this plane performs. It flies very neutral and is the easiest plane to hover that I have flown to date. I did some IMAC type maneuvers and it tracked as straight as an arrow. I can't wait to fly it again.
Glad to hear that the ESC worked. Bummer about the motor bearings.
Guess this is what you call working the bugs out.
Rick

[Geoff Dryer]

Here is a video of the third flight. Sorry for the poor quality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L46Yha5G4Vs

[Yardbee]

Hi Geoff: I Have the Same HXT Motor As You! I Bought it For My 33% Yak But Still Haven't Used it. I Am Really Bummed to Hear That It Only Lasted 3 Flights Not to Sure If I Want To Use It!! I Purchased a Suppo Motor A7035/9 From www.rchotdeals.com & Put 3 Flights On It In My 30% Yak & So Far So Good!! :cool: I Didn't Need the 5000 Watts it Put Out So I'll Be Using It In My 33% Yak-54. Your Sukhoi Looks Awesome!

Happy Flying: Joe :)

[jfetter]

Hi Geoff: I Have the Same HXT Motor As You! I Bought it For My 33% Yak But Still Haven't Used it. I Am Really Bummed to Hear That It Only Lasted 3 Flights Not to Sure If I Want To Use It!! I Purchased a Suppo Motor A7035/9 From www.rchotdeals.com & Put 3 Flights On It In My 30% Yak & So Far So Good!! :cool: I Didn't Need the 5000 Watts it Put Out So I'll Be Using It In My 33% Yak-54. Your Sukhoi Looks Awesome!

Happy Flying: Joe :)

I don't mean to sound even the slightest bit elitest but what did you really expect from a motor that costs half the price (or even less than that)? I know some folks imagine Hacker and Axi taking huge profits from their motors but perhaps the extra goes into better bearings, magnets and windings?

Seriously, not trying to start an argument but you have to expect a higher failure rate from a half-price motor. There may be times when a cheaper alternative is just as good, but in general you should expect to get what you pay for, sometimes a cheaper part costs more in the long run with repair and down-time factored in...

Jack

[appleflyer]

Today I got two flights in. The ESC worked fine but it looks like the bearings in the motor are shot. I was noticing the odd click when I turned the motor over and it seemed to grind a bit when the motor was warm. I did not want risk a third flight. I will pull the motor apart this week and order some new bearings. I did read that this is an issue with these motors. I guess that $150.00 does not buy perfection.

sorry to hear about the bearings. i think you might have gotten a bad motor as i have run my motor up a few times with out problems.

[flazo]

Hi Geoff: Have You Looked Into the Castle Creations HV 110 Speed Controller? The Specs Do Not List the Maximum Burst Current, But Will Run @ 110 Amps Continuous.

Cheers: Joe

110 Amps burst should be around 110 x 1.5 = 165 Burts Amps.

[Geoff Dryer]

jfetter: I am the first one to admit that the Hobby City HXT motor was an experiment given the price. This is why I said "I guess that $150.00 does not buy perfection". I will source some good quality bearings from my local supplier and I will also have a good look at the rest of the inside of this motor. If I find something else that I do not like then I will look at the Hacker or Reaper options.

Flazo: Thanks for the burst numbers on the Castle ESC.

Appleflyer: Shine a flashlight on the bearings and make sure that you do not see any grease leaking out. I can see the grease escaping on my motor.

[appleflyer]

Appleflyer: Shine a flashlight on the bearings and make sure that you do not see any grease leaking out. I can see the grease escaping on my motor.

ok, i will check.

[Yardbee]

jfetter: No Argument Here!! I Enjoy Trying Out Different Brand Motors Expensive Or Not. I Have Big Hackers & AXI Motors & Hyperion Motors I Use On All Of My Big Electrics. I Know You Get What You Pay For! :) I Seriously Do Not Expect a Motor To Be Of The Same Quality as a Name Brand High Quality Motor.

Proud to be An Elitest :)

[Geoff Dryer]

I took the motor and cowling over to my good friend Gerry's house (he has all the tools). Getting the bearings out of the motor was about a 10 minute job.

1) Remove the 2 set screws (metric Allen head) and the retainer pin.
2) Push the case off. We used a puller
3) Tap out the bearings. We used a brass rod.

There are two bearings on one side and one on the other. Two out of three were shot and the other one looked questionable.

Gerry also offered to add a layer of fiberglass to the inside of the cowling. It is cracked in three places.

I called Horizon Hobbies today and explained that the cowling was cracking after three flights. They are sending me a new one! I like when customer service is pleasant.

[jfetter]

Is it my imagination or do I see a LOT of groove marks worn in the magnets?

Jack

[Gerry B]

Those aren't grooves, it is just the design of the magnet. I checked both sides and there wasn't really any wear marks. It looked like just the bearings where worn.

[feathermerchant]

I don't see any magnets. The things with the wire around them are the stator. It is supposed to be made up of steel plates insulated from each other and stacked together.

[jfetter]

I don't see any magnets. The things with the wire around them are the stator. It is supposed to be made up of steel plates insulated from each other and stacked together.

Yes, my bad, thinking inrunner...

Jack

[Gerry B]

Right, I realized after I posted that I should have defined it properly. Sorry :)

When I said I checked both side I meant that the magnets looked fine and the stator was good too.

It sure was an easy motor to work on. Came apart no problem.

Also, I guess we are actually talking about the armature which in this case is part of the stator.

[bsipro]

I put a Hacker A80-8 in my H9 Suk. It flys great
the motor is $669.00 but I only need to run 2 - 6s 4200mAh 35c lipo's for a 6min flight and the plane is 21LB. with batterys. the bearings in the motor is 2.25in
spend the money on the motor instead of a bunch of packs.

[lazyboyflyer]

spend the money on the motor instead of a bunch of packs.

Oh no you didn't! I think the reason for his battery set-up is to be able to fly IMAC with it. Six minutes of flight will only get you 1 1/2 sequences, you need to fly two. As for the motor comment, to each his own.

[RiBell]

I put a Hacker A80-8 in my H9 Suk. It flys great
the motor is $669.00 but I only need to run 2 - 6s 4200mAh 35c lipo's for a 6min flight and the plane is 21LB. with batterys. the bearings in the motor is 2.25in
spend the money on the motor instead of a bunch of packs.
What and spend all day charging batteries. If a budget is what your after; I'd spend it on an inexpensive motor and more batteries first.
For me it's about flying time.
Come-on now even Geoff said it was an experiment to see if a low cost motor would work. It seemed to fly the airplane pretty good. and if you do a little math
$700.00 - $150.00 add in a new set of bearings even if they are $20.00-$30.00 each. He's still got $400.00 more in his pocket for batteries.
Rick

[Geoff Dryer]

Wow! Lots of people arguing since my last post.

I found the bearings today at my local supplier in stock. Total cost $30.00. I am in fact planning on flying this plane in IMAC this year so I wanted the 2P configuration of batteries for at least 8 minutes of flying time.

The flight in the last video (about 6 minutes) used a little under 2000 mah from each battery. I suppose the extra weight may help in precision maneuvers but the plane does not seem too heavy in 3D maneuvers.

[appleflyer]

Geoff, how do your zippy 4000mah battery's perform with the high amp draw?

[lazyboyflyer]

Geoff, give us a flight report when you get the bearings replaced. It's too bad there isn't a cheap (affordable) ESC that works with this motor yet.

[flazo]

Nice job with this project.

Fred

[Geoff Dryer]

"Geoff, how do your zippy 4000mah battery's perform with the high amp draw?"

Even at WOT the 100 amps is split between the 2P configuration of battteries. The maximum draw would be about 50 amps. So far the batteries are only getting slightly warm.

I just reassembled the motor today so no tests yet performed. I hope to fly again on the weekend.

[robn]

Hi Geoff. Too bad about the bearings, thought I could hear them in the video just before you taxied out. Glad you like the Eagle Tree logger, that is what I was going to lend you. You going to buy one soon?
I had no idea you were going to try IMAC. I thought I had asked everyone in the club last year for a partner, and wound up setting up with someone from another club. Having a caller/spotting partner makes life easier.

cul, rob..

[Geoff Dryer]

Hello Rob;

Give me a call and we can talk IMAC. There is a workshop at Surrey in January.

1) Motor is back together and works fine.

2) I added velcro to the bottom of the batteries to prevent them from slipping back.

3) My good friend Gerry is going to apply another layer of fiberglass to repair the cowl. (Also Horizon is sending me a new one.)

With any luck I should be able to fly again on the weekend assuming that the weather is OK.

[Geoff Dryer]

My good friend Gerry repaired the cowling for me. He added a layer of glass cloth to the front and repaired another thin spot. This has made it much stiffer. If you recall I noticed that the cowling was cracking after the first three flights. I think that the air was deforming the front of the cowling causing the failure. The total weight added is 1.2 oz.

It does not look very promising in the weather department this weekend. Maybe it will stop raining tomorrow!

[Geoff Dryer]

The new cowling from Horizon arrived today. This one is reinforced much more in the front than the original one. It is 2.8 oz (80g) heavier.

The weather did not let up on the weekend so no more flights to report. I may take some time off on Thursday if the prediction of sun is correct.

[Geoff Dryer]

Weather was cool but sunny today so I got out and managed to get in flights 4, 5, and 6. The motor is much quieter now with the new bearings. It also starts without any hesitation.

On the fifth flight I noticed somewhat less power then at about 6 minutes I ran out of power. I got it down safely and discovered that I had hooked up only one of the two banks of batteries (oops). Well the batteries were very low but they charged fine and came back up to full voltage. Time will tell if I have shortened their life by doing this stupid move.

On the sixth flight I flew for 7.5 minutes of mixed 3D and IMAC flying. I put back 2600 mah in each battery (4000 mah packs) Viideo of the fourth flight to come.

[Geoff Dryer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKQpYL6cOSI

Compare the motor sound with the previous video. Most of the noise is now wind and propeller

[Gerry B]

Very nice...looks like you've worked out the bugs.

[txfly]

i wonder if just replacing budget motor bearings with boca bearings can yield an affordable GS motor

[lazyboyflyer]

Very nice, this is exactly the kind of project we want to see, an affordable large scale set-up that works. Geoff, can you break down the total cost of your power set-up for us again?

[Geoff Dryer]

If I buy another one of these HXT Motors (80-100) I will replaces the bearings before using the first time. The bearings required are:

Qty 1 - 6901Z 12x24x6
Qty 2 - 6801Z 12x21x5

The total cost of the power system for this project in US$:

HXT 80-100-B130 motor $150
Additional bearings $30
Castle 110 HV ESC $230
One set Zippy 6S-4000 batteries $75x4=$300

Total for this power system $710.00

[Yardbee]

Geoff: I Have the Same HXT Motor & Should Replace the Bearings Before My First Flight. Do You Have a Source Where I Can Buy Some? Oh & The Video Of Your Sukhoi Is Awesome!!

Keep Em Flying!! Joe :)

[RiBell]

The motor is much quieter now with the new bearings. It also starts without any hesitation.
Geoff:
I just watched the 2 video's and after watching the one with new motor bearings; I watched the first 30-45 sec of the one before you changed the bearings. Even on the video it is very clear that the motor is a lot quieter with the new bearings.
I wonder if it was causing some of the jumpy starts and maybe even a higher amp draw.
Glad to see that you've worked the bugs out.
Rick

[Geoff Dryer]

Thanks for your comments Joe. After looking at the bearings that came out of the motor I would recommend changing them. It was certainly a simple task. These bearings are pretty common so any bearing supplier should have them. Look up "Bearings" in your yellow pages.

You could also order them from BOCA bearings www.bocabearings.com.
looks like their part numbers are MR6901-ZZ and MR6801-ZZ (X2)