Long Endurance, Cheap UAV Wanted

[Taipan1]

Hi Guys,

I just stumbled across this site and wanted to ask some questions.

First, I own a small security company, and wanted to explore the UAV scene as an add on to the services we currently operate. I made a few inquiries and basically for what I was looking for the minimum price quoted was $100,000, I nearly fell off my chair.

These are the operational parameters I am looking at

SPECIFICATIONS

Wingspan: 2.6 meters-4.75 meters
Fuselage: 1.525 meters-2.25 meters
Max Speed: 100 knots (185 km/hr)
Engine: 100cc 2-stroke reverse rotation diesel engine

Max Range: 280 nautical miles (519 km), depending on fuel on board.
Cruise Speed: 70 knots (129 km/hr)
Max Altitude: 10,000-20,000 ft.
Max Endurance: 8-12 hours depending on fuel and payload on board.
Max Takeoff Weight: 45 kg?
Empty Weight: 25.0 kg?
Fuel On Board: Based upon consumption considering reserve and desired endurance. Also interested in viability of adding solar cells on the entire wing surfaces (possibly to add additional power production during flight and or power smaller supplimentary electric engines at atlitude, not sure about the viability of this?)

Fuel Per Hour: Dependent on flight profile
Landing Speed: 70 km/h
Comm Links: 900MHz data modems, 2.4 GHz video (option)
Max Payload: Weight 20.0 kg, with max fuel.

Payload Vol: (Internal) 9” x 9” x 27” (275 x 275 x 700 mm)
Payload Power: (typ) 18.5 +2.5/- 1 VDC @ 2.5 Amps, 6 Ah distributed.
Max Comm: Range 100 miles Line of Sight

Autopilot: Up to 1,000 waypoints/16 airfields. Change waypoints, speed, altitude and heading “on-the fly”. User programmable error handlers (GPS, RC signal, engine, data link, fuel level, and battery voltage). Controls up to 12 payload servos/relays.

Takeoff & Landing: Manual RC Control (spread spectrum), runway <500’ (150 m) depending on surface and Takeoff Weight


Mission Profile
Surveillance primarily with nose gyro stabilized mounted gimbal (Thermal & Color Video)
Fixed Nose Cam for "pilot"
Possible 12-15 Meg digital camera for aerial photography when no being used for primary mission


Simple put, am I dreaming, is this possible to build for less than $40,000? Comments greatly appreciated.
Cheers
Taipan1

[jtprouty]

Sounds like a direct quote from the Vector P website. (I designed the airframe.) $40K is doable for the airframe only, but when you add the systems that you're talking about it gets more expensive. Also, having the flight duration that you're looking for with a 100cc engine can be difficult, but still doable.

Jimmy
hangar18uav.com

[Taipan1]

Hi Jimmy,

Yes you are right, I am getting ready to place an order for the Vector P, as it looks like a pretty good UAV, there are some concerns as far as maximum altitude that has been achieved but all in all its a nice bird.

I used the Vector P as a benchmark for the second phase in our project that requires either a new Vectorp P XL version or something way bigger. The client has indicated for the second part of the project (when it all kicks off) the need for loiter times that are way above the capacity of the Vector P. Just to give you an idea I am seriously looking at the Velocity TXL modified into a UAV, as you may know its basically a kit passenger aircraft, with the modification to an UAV we can achieve a loiter time of around 30+ hours.

Its early days yet but I thought I would ask the question to see what else is out there. The Vector P sells for $100k per plane, the velocity modified sells for around $160K per plane, so the additional cost brings a lot.

That being said the Vector P will be ideal for the first phase of the project I have in mind, so unless there are any red flags I guess we'll go with it, any advise is appreciated.
Taipan

[jtprouty]

Taipan,

I think you'll be very happy with the Vector P. It's a very stable platform and can carry a wide array of payloads. I basically designed it to be a flying pickup truck with a large payload area that can carry a large system payload or a large fuel cell right above the CG. I'm no longer with Intellitech for personal reasons and have nothing to gain by recommending their products so my only bias is having designed the airframe. The quality of the work on the Vector P is very high and you should be able to get a lot of air time with it.

One option for longer endurance might be the new 4 stroke gasser that has been released this year. If you load the prop up to produce max brake horsepower at your desired flying speed you'll get better fuel performance than with a two stroke engine.

I would also look for a high aspect winged aircraft to get the endurance that you're looking for further down the road. How much payload (weight and size) are you wanting to carry?

Jimmy
hangar18uav.com

[reedchristiansen]

I have some information about Intellitech you may be interested in.

PM me for details.

Reed


Hi Jimmy,

Yes you are right, I am getting ready to place an order for the Vector P, as it looks like a pretty good UAV, there are some concerns as far as maximum altitude that has been achieved but all in all its a nice bird.

I used the Vector P as a benchmark for the second phase in our project that requires either a new Vectorp P XL version or something way bigger. The client has indicated for the second part of the project (when it all kicks off) the need for loiter times that are way above the capacity of the Vector P. Just to give you an idea I am seriously looking at the Velocity TXL modified into a UAV, as you may know its basically a kit passenger aircraft, with the modification to an UAV we can achieve a loiter time of around 30+ hours.

Its early days yet but I thought I would ask the question to see what else is out there. The Vector P sells for $100k per plane, the velocity modified sells for around $160K per plane, so the additional cost brings a lot.

That being said the Vector P will be ideal for the first phase of the project I have in mind, so unless there are any red flags I guess we'll go with it, any advise is appreciated.
Taipan

[ios]

I would suggest also looking at the Border Eagle Mk-2 airframe or the Vision Mk-2. The Border Eagle is a three meter wingspan composite airframe manufactured by Integrated Dynamics specifically as a UAV camera ship, or payload development platform.

http://www.idaerospace.com/

I recently got a Border Eagle Mk-1 specifically for the UAV Outback Challenge, but unfortunately due to a couple of delays was unable to compete - but I can only say how extreamly pleased I am with this airframe.

http://www.diydrones.com/profile/Ios

Take Care

Nick

[Taipan1]

Thanks for the heads up Nick.

I had a look through and was surprised to see these UAV's are made in Pakistan. Some of them look interesting for some simpler applications I have in mind, but I guess the $64 million question is; are the the endurance figures as advertised accurate? What's your experience on this, build quality and I guess an important one price?

Any inputs would really help,

Thanks

Taipan

[Taipan1]

I tend to agree the Vector P looks a pretty stable platform, only when I started searching around did I find some weird and wonderful designs. For the basic plane as advertised the price is a bit steep ($100K per plane) but I guess that's in the ballpark for that level of technology.

As these units are going to be used in Iraq and Afghanistan amongst other locations simplicity is paramount, plus we have to factor in potential rough handling by the operators, I figured the Vector P is a good way to go, they can't really break a box, plus the easy access to the airframe is well planned and idiot proof!

One question that there was a bit of doubt from the guys at Vector P is how much additional upgrade can be done to improve on the current endurance, there was also some hesitation as far as confirmation on the tested altitude versa the theoretical maximum altitude. This is a really important fact considering the terrain in Afghanistan.
That being said they were very happy to work with me to make sure I got what I wanted (guinea pig?).

I guess what I am looking for is to push the endurance up to 12 hours, plus with your suggestion (thank you) on the engine change we really should have something interesting. Is it possible to store additional fuel in the wings?

Last question, has anyone thought to add solar cells on the Vector P to supplement the electrical drain, considering the actual weight of these cells, is should be possible to mesh them into the wing surface? As Afghanistan gets very cold up in the mountains I was wondering if a simple anti icing (low heated metal strip) solution could be added to the wings leading edges?

I apologize for the simplicity in the questions but as I mentioned earlier this is not my background.


For the second phase of the project i.e. the bigger plane, the requirement is to be able to carry upto 200lbs of equipment (Satcom, GPS. camera's,Transponder, Sensors), I guess the simplest thing could be to proportionally expand the Vector P?

Regards
Taipan


Taipan,

I think you'll be very happy with the Vector P. It's a very stable platform and can carry a wide array of payloads. I basically designed it to be a flying pickup truck with a large payload area that can carry a large system payload or a large fuel cell right above the CG. I'm no longer with Intellitech for personal reasons and have nothing to gain by recommending their products so my only bias is having designed the airframe. The quality of the work on the Vector P is very high and you should be able to get a lot of air time with it.

One option for longer endurance might be the new 4 stroke gasser that has been released this year. If you load the prop up to produce max brake horsepower at your desired flying speed you'll get better fuel performance than with a two stroke engine.

I would also look for a high aspect winged aircraft to get the endurance that you're looking for further down the road. How much payload (weight and size) are you wanting to carry?

Jimmy
hangar18uav.com

[F-111Nut]

Taipan1

i sent you a Pm..

[Gary Mortimer]

Perhaps discussion of units to be used in hot zones is a little out of place in this hobby forum??

Or am I being an old fart.

Stuff for military grade work will cost military grade money.

How to you plan to integrate the systems with the military air traffic system, unless they are transponder equipped and flying the codes of the day I think they will be perfect target practice for the allies.

[Connexxion]

...unless they are transponder equipped and flying the codes of the day I think they will be perfect target practice for the allies.


That's still better than shooting Shaun the sheep! :D

[Taipan1]

All UAV's would be equipped with transponders and as is the current practice in Iraq hourly codes.

If anything I think forums like this demonstrate there are smart people out there who know what they are doing and the actual cost does not require a budget the size of kazoo.

Last point, and an important one I think is nobody is suggesting "sneaking" anything under the Allies noses, they would be the contracting authority.

[Gary Mortimer]

Fair play but I think theres a problem with military use being discussed in a place where people talk of search and rescue and photo shoots.

If the hobby UAV's are perceived as a threat then this would be why.

I can already read the newspaper headlines.

Hobby group help overseas company develop cheap protection for our boys.

Now onto important things, I'm not sure about Shaun the Sheep.

However I am really looking forward to the next short http://www.wallaceandgromit.com/forum/view/9

Shaun irritates me a bit so I might just shoot him!!

Blimey I've just realised that statement is worse than starting a war for fictional WMD's

Of course I'd never shoot Shaun.

[Taipan1]

Hmmm, point taken.

FYI I am a US company, British Company and a British Citizen = good guy :)

[Taipan1]

O I live in Hong Kong, its too bloody cold in the UK :)

[klochto]

I can say i agree 1000% with gary , if we dont want to have all kind of stupid laws applying to "toys UAVS" we should realy consider them as what they are for us : FUN .

I would not like this forum to be shut down because somebody consider hobby uavs as danger to national security .

Specialy now ...

I prefer to make clear distinction : here we have fun with toys , we take nice pictures and in extreme case we have some farmer-helper-uav.

Mixing stuff is never good ... take a look on what happend in france , now if you want to fly an uav you need to put down a flight plan , and get it approuved , (no matter where or how long you fly) .