wave winding

[Fire42]

IN my continuing search for motor theory info, i'm struggling to find info on this subject.....so.....When wave winding an inrunner..how does one create different wind numbers? When one wind of a single phase is complete, do i go round again in and out of the same slots, stacking the second wind onto the first or what? Is this the same as overlapping?? I'm confused. Also as there is no tooth for it to be wound around, as the wire sits between two teeth, how does the field generated behave. I have a plettenberg moskito which i've been pouring over and I cant tell whats going on in there, there appears to be conductors going into each slot from both directions which looks like wave winding but isnt :confused: Ive seen ALL the diagrams but cant quite grasp it and how it differs to a straight forward concentrated wind

thanks in advance!

Dave

[herbertkabi]

I have near all Plettenberg motors but no Moskito. But its overlapped wound its sure. Plettenberg uses wave winding. Its simple for me to wind but very hard to tell you because my weak English. What is number of turns (3...6...) and what wire you use - just stranded enamelled copper or wrapped Litz? When last mentioned one then only "waving" you can use, but when stranded enamelled copper you can wind bit more easy for you. I cant tell more before knowing about I asked.
Good night,
Herbert

[Fire42]

HI Herbert
I understand what you're saying, so is there a difference between 'wave' winding and overlapped. My moskito is a 4 wind, and its wound in enamelled wire
its also in Y configuration

thanks again

Dave

[herbertkabi]

HI Herbert
I understand what you're saying, so is there a difference between 'wave' winding and overlapped. My moskito is a 4 wind, and its wound in enamelled wire
its also in Y configuration

thanks again

Dave

Mh-mhh, then its simple for you.
Fix all three start wires abc in to slots 1,2,3 - all the same direction, same lenght of ...
Then wind wire C 2 turns per three slots ccw, next three slots cw, next and next, rest of wire DU NOT CUT!
Then phase B and then phase A.
Then come one time back direction with wire A (!) like "wave", then with B and then C. Now its wound.
Now close slots with plastic or wooden sticks,
Now you need to press winding sides correctly close to stator.
Use plastic or wood.
Finito!
Start wires are ABC, end wires are abc,
If you need AbC then A and C need to be bended to place a and c ( places changed). I hope you will understand it. OK - you can just only change C and c ... it does not matter mach.
*Every slot has 4 wires of the same phase with the same direction of current.
*All sides need to visually look the same.
I advice to try several times with "probe" wire - then you will know the right lenght of loops on the sides and totalk lenght of wire.
Side "loops" need to be not too tight - not too loose ... you have to workout several times.
Good luck.
Herbert

[Fire42]

Hi Herbert
Thats perfect, exactly what i needed to understand it, and it is different to how i thought it would be, so thank you very much!. Now i understand why my plettenberg looks like it does. So how many winds is the diagram you have drawn.....4? , so there would be 6 wires in a slot for 3 wind .......8 for 4wind etc? Would it be easier or even possible to wind the coils outside the motor, then feed the loops through, assuming that the length was measured accurately? And HOW do they get the paper insulation round the coils, it goes right round the groups of conductors, and they wont go through the slots when like this obviously, do they line the slots first and feed the wire through?? How does this system fit into the 'combination table' or Bewicklungsrechner as it is in orange, and it says 'works', but not very well?
is it 12slot and 4 pole? my stator has 12 slots.

many thanks

Dave

[herbertkabi]

Hi Herbert
Thats perfect, exactly what i needed to understand it, and it is different to how i thought it would be, so thank you very much!. Now i understand why my plettenberg looks like it does. So how many winds is the diagram you have drawn.....4? , so there would be 6 wires in a slot for 3 wind .......8 for 4wind etc? Would it be easier or even possible to wind the coils outside the motor, then feed the loops through, assuming that the length was measured accurately? And HOW do they get the paper insulation round the coils, it goes right round the groups of conductors, and they wont go through the slots when like this obviously, do they line the slots first and feed the wire through?? How does this system fit into the 'combination table' is it 12slot and 4 pole? my stator has 12 slots.

many thanks

Dave

Plettenberg determes number of wires in slot. HP140/25 A4 for example what I did draw. If you need different then you can change yourself.
regards,
herbert

Perhaps you need A8? then you will have 4 "turns" and 8 wires in slot.
You can do it. You can use pure waving (zig-zag) ...
or to wind by two turns ccw/cw two times backward and two times forward .
Every layer must to be wound with all three phase, done or ABC or CBA - it gives more compact. Its very hard to explane, when you try, you will see how it looks.

[Fire42]

Herbert

Many thanks for your explanation...I fully understand now.

regards

Dave

[Fire42]

Herbert,
INcidentally, when looking at the winding combination table no. of poles/no stator slots, where does this fit in, if I cross reference 4 pole with 12 slot, it says the combination works but not very well..
http://www.powercroco.de/Kombinationstabelle.html

does this winding format conform to this table??

regards

Dave

[herbertkabi]

Herbert,
INcidentally, when looking at the winding combination table no. of poles/no stator slots, where does this fit in, if I cross reference 4 pole with 12 slot, it says the combination works but not very well..
http://www.powercroco.de/Kombinationstabelle.html

does this winding format conform to this table??

regards

Dave

You cant just use this Kombinationstabelle when you have not enough how-know about overlapped ;-)
You are using overlapped windings - Kombinationstabelle tells you about concentrated wounds. Lets speek for better understanding that you have 2 x 6tooth/2pole motors - understood? Half of stator (tooths 1....6) and next half (tooth 7....12) .... oh dear ... very difficult for me to explane.

But OK:
You will wind ABCabcABCabc ower three tooths. When finished need to change the places (to bend) of Start and End wires (inputs/outputs):
1.) A <--> a and C <--> c ..... you will get aBcAbCaBcAbC
or
2.) C <---> c you will get AbCaBcAbCaBc

Firstly wound ABCabc ... it is for better compacting - when you trying to wind promptly AbCaBc ... its very hard to do and will have bad look.

Understood?
cheers,
khabe

Or you wonder why Ralph does AcBaCb... ????
It does not matter how you name your wires ;-) You can use
CaB... as well or KvPkVp... ;-)))))))))))))))))))))))

[Fire42]

Well I suppose i'd only be rewinding an existing motor, so I'd just follow the original format as no inrunner kits are available it seems, so format for winding isnt really a problem, i'm just interested to know if theres any rules that apply to this style of winding in terms of magnet coverage required for a given number of slots, so for Neu motors which are 24 slots and 8 pole the relationship is the same I assume, where each magnet pole covers 3 slots, would this be true for all wave wound motors?

thanks

Dave

[prinz]

edited

[herbertkabi]

no.
a special overlapped winding is p.e. 18N8P-winded over 2 teeth.

You mean Kabi motor? Was big fighting when I introduced my 18/8, nobody did believe it works ... ha-ha-ha ... hi-hi-hi ... but it works and works brilliant :rolleyes:
I think that at least about this overlapped windings I can be as author :)
Also 18/10 , also 36/16, also 36/20 and so one,

Regards,
Herbert

[herbertkabi]

Well I suppose i'd only be rewinding an existing motor, so I'd just follow the original format as no inrunner kits are available it seems, so format for winding isnt really a problem, i'm just interested to know if theres any rules that apply to this style of winding in terms of magnet coverage required for a given number of slots, so for Neu motors which are 24 slots and 8 pole the relationship is the same I assume, where each magnet pole covers 3 slots, would this be true for all wave wound motors?

thanks

Dave

Neu does copy Plettenberg´s, its not about scheme - it is wellcnown long time ago, but woynd style and statir geometry is the same. Actro makes bit different - has "emty" groups for phases (like LRK has "emties" abs dLRK has not).
herbert

[prinz]

edited

[herbertkabi]

kristjan,

do you remember, that this scheme was identified as "only" an "elongated" 18N8P singletoothwinding and that there was a mistake in the very first version?

I would be interested in knowing if version 3 with the additional windings (outside) works really better than version 2 ?

ralph

First version was not mistaken - there just wires was shown in disorder, messy, becausa was very hard to follow when making windings. Second one - just well-structured version of.
Version 3 - every phase has two "empty" regions on the stator - 3.version just wound those too. There you must to compare like LRK versus dLRK - all wound or not. Kabi 18/8 has two-tooth "groups", these two "emty" groups have 3 tooths. It does not matter - wound or not, like Actro has "emty" groups for every phase ... like LRK has "emty" tooth ... ... magnetic circuit is clever enough - when same-phase neighbors are both in N then "emty" group has S polarity - exact oposite magnet pole on the rotor does guarantee it.
Version 2 - "emties" not wound, Version 3 - "emties" wound. Sometimes you have more place - you can wind, if not free room - you do not. Very simple - I dont see reason for sarcasm.
As "normal" overlapped 24/8 motor , has HIGH cogging and all 8 rotor poles are in full act with 8 "groups" of any phase ---> then Khabe 18/8 overlapped motor , has LOW cogging and all 8 rotor poles are in near full act with 8 "groups" of any phase, wheres version 2 has 6 wound of 8, and version 3 has 8 wound of 8. Pls. note - "near full" - for low cogging we pay allways ;-)
Advantage of overlapped style is because more iron area and larger magnets area are in work - ALL PERIMETER of stator acting with ALL ROTOR POLES - all the time, every instant, every a while.
Cheers,
Herbert

[1clue]

Can somebody point me to a link which describes what "wave wound" is and what the advantages and disadvantages are? I've so far found nothing very helpful.

Thanks.

[herbertkabi]

Can somebody point me to a link which describes what "wave wound" is and what the advantages and disadvantages are? I've so far found nothing very helpful.

Thanks.

Go "zig-zag" with wire cw - got "half wave" - then come back ccw - got "full wave",
Its useful when low number of turns and when overlapped wound motor.

or sometimes when you wind AaA three tooths (for example) for 9 toot 8 pole experiments,

or if you just trying "prone 8" (lie back eight) - zig-zag on tooths Aa for normal LRK.
Sometimes its useful.

;-)

cheers

[prinz]

edited

[1clue]

Go "zig-zag" with wire cw - got "half wave" - then come back ccw - got "full wave",
Its useful when low number of turns and when overlapped wound motor.

or sometimes when you wind AaA three tooths (for example) for 9 toot 8 pole experiments,

or if you just trying "prone 8" (lie back eight) - zig-zag on tooths Aa for normal LRK.
Sometimes its useful.

;-)

cheers

So it works like a dLRK?

Thanks.

[herbertkabi]

So it works like a dLRK?

Thanks.

Ohh dear ...
no comments :mad:
ciao,
herbert

[1clue]

Ohh dear ...
no comments :mad:
ciao,
herbert

That's why I asked for a link rather than an explanation. I don't know what makes this winding better, and thought that a link would explain it nicely, but so far I have not found a helpful link.

[Fire42]

Just follow herberts diagram on the first page, that explains it better than any written explanation.

Dave

[1clue]

Just follow herberts diagram on the first page, that explains it better than any written explanation.

Dave

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I'm not asking how to wind it, I'm asking what the advantages and disadvantages of that scheme are.

More/less torque, kV, that sort of thing. In other words, why would I wind a motor this way?

[birdofplay]

I too have wondered about the advantages vs disadvantages of various wind schemes.

Some kind of Chart would be super duper ! ;>}

I dont mind any extra winding effort or learning something new but I'd like to know
WHY I'm expending the effort in the 1st place.

[Homer_Simpson]

Same here!
Main benefit of wave wind? Torque?