Advance Power Combos in 3DHS, Extreme Flight and other Giant Scale aircraft

[MLT67]

I'm starting this thread for people to discuss their unique power combos in GS 3D planes such as the 3DHS 87inch Extra. I've always flown outrunners but would love to learn how to get the most out of electric planes. The goal of this thread is to provide real life experience with using Inrunners, A123, as well as other advance electric power systems.

MLT

[Jeffery]

25oz motor/gearbox, 17lb 4oz plane.

http://vimeo.com/1638792?pg=embed&sec=1638792

That's all I got to say about that.

[3Deranged]

Don't make me go here again,noooooo....JK here's the somewhat long and drawn out thread for using 14s2p M1's in my 87" Extra SHP. Standard power system-A60-18L/Spin 99. Just started it to try and glean as much info before embarking on powering a GS bird with A123's. Found out not too many people have SUCCESSFULLY tried it and continue to fly 3D with this setup. Oh well, live and learn. :rolleyes: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=722914
Conclusion: Current(Castle SHV 110's and higher not available yet)ESC's don't seem to handle the "ripple effect" from the sine wave put off by large cell count A123 packs. They do for a few flights and then everyones speed control tends to burn out.(or burn in my case-doooh!) Maybe some of you have had a different experience, but I've done enough damage to my 87" Extra for now with M1's(Repairable thank goodness). Not going there anymore except for my RX battery. Wonderful for receiver packs but other than that it's lipos for the main power pack for me from now on. If someone waits till the new SHV's come out, it should be possible to go with a 20s1p pack and shave 8 cells off the 14s2p setup for this size plane. That may be right combo for M1's. :confused: Too much weight for good 3D work. Kind of real sluggish thru most moves and you could see the added momentum didn't help. Someone posted a vid on this thread but I don't see much down low 3D work and the plane doesn't look like it's liking the extra weight or flying "light on the wing".
As far as powerplants, I'm waiting on the Scorpion 5455 since Noah has a GR 70 to test out. That and/or a Neu motor will be my next 50cc powerplant. Good luck and keep 'em flyin'!I'm starting this thread for people to discuss their unique power combos in GS 3D planes such as the 3DHS 87inch Extra. I've always flown outrunners but would love to learn how to get the most out of electric planes. The goal of this thread is to provide real life experience with using Inrunners, A123, as well as other advance electric power systems.

MLT

[Warbirds Rule]

Now that's some serious vertical performance for a plane that size! Makes the DA50 powered stuff look a bit childish by way of comparison. :eek: No offense to the DA50 guys out there. I only wish I could have a 50cc plane gas or electric. Either way, great video Jeffery. Thanks!

Sean

25oz motor/gearbox, 17lb 4oz plane.

http://vimeo.com/1638792?pg=embed&sec=1638792

That's all I got to say about that.

[MLT67]

Jeff all I can say is WOW. Can you post some pictures of how you mounted everything? Also fair warning, I'm totally ignorant when it comes to inrunners so you might have to put up with some stupid questions.

MLT

[KatManDEW]

Awesome. Which Neu motor is that?

[BoneDoc]

What's your amp draw to get that Jeff?

[drstillpatient]

what neu setup is a replacement for 50cc power? Also which mount to use ?

[jfv61]

Here is the video I got of the Neu powered SHP (which includes some basic specs). Jeff can fill in the details on amp draw, mount, etc.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=905257

[drstillpatient]

Here is the video I got of the Neu powered SHP (which includes some basic specs). Jeff can fill in the details on amp draw, mount, etc.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=905257

awesome video...and power. So then Neu 1521/1.5Y and 6.7:1 gearbox is a direct replacement for a 50cc gasser? or are there any other kv and gearbox combo's as well?
what motor shaft to choose? 5mm or 8mm?
Is there a standard mount available?
and the 1900 series or the 2200 series motors are also possible candidates with gearbox combos?

[blucor basher]

So then Neu 1521/1.5Y and 6.7:1 gearbox is a direct replacement for a 50cc gasser?

It appears (from seeing it perform in person) to be approximately the power of a 70-80CC gas engine.

[Jeffery]

Awesome. Which Neu motor is that?

1521/1.5Y 6.7HD P42 gearbox


What's your amp draw to get that Jeff?

I don't know. It draws 90A here at 3250' ASL, we never measured it there @800' ASL. I'd guess maybe 95A.


So then Neu 1521/1.5Y and 6.7:1 gearbox is a direct replacement for a 50cc gasser?

I don't know. In 3D flight, using short bursts of WOT, I think it outperforms a 50cc gasser operated in the same fashion. If you used it in a warbird where most of the flight was at or near WOT, it'd melt down long before the 50cc gasser went through its first tank of gas.


or are there any other kv and gearbox combo's as well?

There are numerous different Kvs to chose from, but only one ratio, 6.7:1

what motor shaft to choose? 5mm or 8mm?

5mm is the only option that will allow the gearbox to be mounted. The 8mm shaft is for direct drive or EDF applications.

Is there a standard mount available?

I don't know, I think Esprit might carry some.

and the 1900 series or the 2200 series motors are also possible candidates with gearbox combos?

I don't care for either of them. They both suffer from a rotor RPM limitation of 30K RPM. With the only gear ratio available being 6.7:1, this means that the absolute highest prop RPM you could get would be about 4000. That means a very large prop, larger than anything I'd care to deal with.

[AllBread]

If we're going to do it, let's do it right: it's been brought up before but I do think that it would be cool to see RPM numbers on electric set-ups to help compare power with comparable gas engine and other electric set-ups. Obviously, anyone willing to build, test, and fly a power system is doing us a favor by posting any info, but I think that those testing should strive to post the following information:

1. Motor, esc, and battery
2. Prop (make and size)
3. Amps and watts being pulled
4. Voltage batteries were holding while number 3 was measured.
5. Elevation
6. RPM

I think that by comparing those six criteria, we will be able to most accurately compare the difference between various systems. Then, of course, the subjective part of how does it feel in the air (throttle response, etc) and how long of flight times you typically get. If you're willing to post the total price for all parts of the power system it will be a great resource for most of us who aren't in a position to compare and will just be ordering off the web from the advice and reports of others.

Just my 2 cents and much appreciation to people willing to give us a complete picture of their set-ups.

[Fig Jam]

As soon as I've finished my Comp-ARF 2.1M YAK powered by a 1521/1.5Y and 6.7:1 GB I'll post some numbers. It will be a 12s 5000mAh setup turning a 24x10 to start with. Should be fun!

Mike

[KatManDEW]

If we're going to do it, let's do it right: it's been brought up before but I do think that it would be cool to see RPM numbers on electric set-ups to help compare power with comparable gas engine and other electric set-ups. Obviously, anyone willing to build, test, and fly a power system is doing us a favor by posting any info, but I think that those testing should strive to post the following information:

1. Motor, esc, and battery
2. Prop (make and size)
3. Amps and watts being pulled
4. Voltage batteries were holding while number 3 was measured.
5. Elevation
6. RPM

I think that by comparing those six criteria, we will be able to most accurately compare the difference between various systems. Then, of course, the subjective part of how does it feel in the air (throttle response, etc) and how long of flight times you typically get. If you're willing to post the total price for all parts of the power system it will be a great resource for most of us who aren't in a position to compare and will just be ordering off the web from the advice and reports of others.

Just my 2 cents and much appreciation to people willing to give us a complete picture of their set-ups.

I second that motion.

[BoneDoc]

If someone is willing to pony up the setup, I'd be more than happy to give the "subjective impression" :D.

[jfv61]

If someone is willing to pony up the setup, I'd be more than happy to give the "subjective impression" :D.
LOL! Which reminds me Josh, did you ever get that Neu you ordered ages ago?

[BoneDoc]

Don't even get me started on that one :D.

Mine came in September... I ordered in May btw :D. On top of that, the insult to injury was the fact that mine came with the P32 gearbox (the only option for gearbox listed at the Castle Creations website). On top of that, no one at NEU (and I did call a couple of times to check my order) caught that to notify me that hey... P32 might not be the best option... how about the P42? The good news in all this is that Jeffrey has been very helpful in troubleshooting this problem for me.

lol.. such is life:).

[ekotil]

Ben sent me my electric power set-up in my 87'' Extra SHP in just a few days. It works flawlessly!

[KatManDEW]

You guys down south are spoiled :) If I order in September, by the time the snow stops flying, I have a sweet motor in my hot little hands :)

[blucor basher]

Snow? What's that?

[sun.flyer]

Snow? What's that?


I'm sure we'll still have some in April when you come up for the Toledo Show. ;)

Looks like you may have to pack more than camo shorts for the visit to Toledo in April (heh, heh, heh). :p

Tim

[ClioRC]

You need to fly in some snow and cold temps Ben,at least once.Olin

[blucor basher]

We did a 30DegF fun-fly in Ft. Worth a few years ago...That was cold enough for me.

[NumbSkull]

30s nothing.. it will get to and bellow 0 here. If the wind isn't blowing (it always blows in Kansas) it's not too bad... You have to keep the packs in the car to keep them warm, and after a flight... you put the warm packs in your pocket to keep you warm...

[NumbSkull]

I just re-watched that video. That Neu had tremendous power.

Jeffery, I thought you had posted pics of your mount, but you said it was of one you made. I would love to see how you mounted yours up.

Also, what RPMs are you getting? I've been playing with a Tach since Grapevine on different motors, and want to hear what the Neu spins at.

[KatManDEW]

NumbSkull: What kind of RPM's are you getting on different motors?

[Fig Jam]

MLT67,

Can you change the thread title to include all manufacturers?

Mike

[Jeffery]

Also, what RPMs are you getting?

It spins a 24X12 APCE @ 6K RPM. The maximum theoretical RPM it can spin @42V (3.5V/cell) is about 6.6K, so no matter how much I prop down I'll never get many more RPM at that voltage under load.

Don't worry, I'm sure the GR-70 will spin faster.

[BoneDoc]

So are you AT exactly 6K, or 6100 etc? At this prop size, even another 100 rpm can mean a palpably significant difference.

[KatManDEW]

So that's a 24x12 at 6K RPM, and 90-95 amps, right? That's great info. Thanks.

[BoneDoc]

ditto, thanks for the info. Also what prop were you using?

[Jeffery]

So are you AT exactly 6K, or 6100 etc? At this prop size, even another 100 rpm can mean a palpably significant difference.

I've seen both, but the voltage isn't constant and I'm not real keen on running an electric system static for more than long enough to check the amps, the Whattmeter is only rated for 100A. My tach is a TNC and reads 4 digits, the display changes pretty quickly as the pack voltage changes.

I've never tached or Whattmetered the motor in the SHP, or the Fusion Packs. That was off the motor in the EF on some Tanic Packs I bought off here.

[Jeffery]

ditto, thanks for the info. Also what prop were you using?

The same one I was 3 posts ago...


It spins a 24X12 APCE....

[BoneDoc]

Also the next time out, try to get the pack voltage as well. As imperfect as it may be, that's the best thing we have going when different people with different setup, who flies at different conditions and different altitude get to compare each others' setup.

[KatManDEW]

Anyone else have any data?

[Jeffery]

I don't see why, I was ridiculed when I even suggested that RPM were a relevant measurement. Watts-in were all that mattered. IIRC, it was my questioning the big watts-in numbers that started the whole s storm in the 87" SHP thread. Back then, that was all that mattered, and I didn't buy it.

[blucor basher]

This thread is a perfect place to debate such things.

Also, some people have a very strange definition of "ridicule".

[KatManDEW]

I don't "buy it" either, until I see some data.

Can anyone besides Jeffery please offer some figures to help some the rest of us make an informed purchasing decision?

[MLT67]

The same one I was 3 posts ago...
Dude if you lose the attitude you have you might find that people show you a little more respect and this thread may actually be productive and help others.

MLT

[BoneDoc]

Here's my contribution:
GR 85
12S 3DH 5350
XOAR 24x10
Hacker/Jeti 170

RPM 9200
Amp 138
Watts 6000

This setup was flown at the 3DH Fly In, Dallas TX, ambient temp 100+ F
Motor temp post flight 125', power was phenomenal (too much IMHO :D).

VIDEO
35% Dalton Aviation Extra 260 VIDEO #6 (http://young99.net/images/Videos/DALTON06.wmv)

35% Dalton Aviation Extra 260 VIDEO #7 (http://young99.net/images/Videos/DALTON07.wmv)

Also if you go to the Dalton thread, there are plenty of other videos as well.

[KatManDEW]

Thanks Doc. I think I will start a database with this info.

[BoneDoc]

I've updated my post with a sampling of the videos taken to give people the "viceral" feel :D.

[Fig Jam]

Those numbers just don't make sense Josh. There is no way you were turning a 24x10 at 9200 RPM that would equate to over 95% efficiency on the motor and the Prop tips would be supersonic!

Mike

[The Reaper]

hey fig

yeah that GR85cc is crazy power . but thats what josh was turning his vids are awesome with it.

scott

[BoneDoc]

Mike, all I can do is tell you what my gobee rpm sensor and my Jeti says. If you have better equipment, send it my way, and I'll test it out on my next outing :).

[Fig Jam]

hey fig

yeah that GR85cc is crazy power . but thats what josh was turning his vids are awesome with it.

scott
Thanks for your technical analysis scott.

Mike

[The Reaper]

hey mike

sorry but after running solid works all day and doing so many math problems solving the next step on an even bigger motor and talking to airframe vendors to make sure it will fit im out of gas by now.

but his prop was spinning that fast because it was underpropped thus giving him the high effic rating and tach reading with its correct prop installed the motor should have run arround 84% effic. but we had to use what josh had on hand for the setup.

scott

Thanks for your technical analysis scott.

Mike

[BoneDoc]

By what the temp was recording post flight (125 F immediately after) with the ambient temp 100+ F, it really sounds like you can prop it more aggressively. But my Batt wouldn't be able to take it, and it was crazy power already as it is (finding the sweet spot for hover was difficult because it was in the 1/4-1/3 throttle range.

[Jeffery]

Those numbers just don't make sense Josh. There is no way you were turning a 24x10 at 9200 RPM that would equate to over 95% efficiency on the motor and the Prop tips would be supersonic!

Mike

Unless I miss my guess, it takes ~12K watts to turn a 24X10 at 9200, but the prop tips would only be doing 657 MPH or .86 Mach at sea level.

[Fig Jam]

My bad, I thought they were at 35000 Ft :D The numbers still don't gel though. I know the Spin Box can be out, but by this much :confused:

Mike

[F1 Rocket]

Neu 1524 1.5Y
12s 5350 Evolites
Spin 99
Xoar 25x12e
2900-3000ish watts
5600-5700ish RPM

I'm very happy with this setup as it makes effortless power and is very easy on the packs. I've run a Xoar 26x12 on it as well but do not have any numbers. It is really, really sweet on the 26 but either my SHP needs a bit taller gear or I need to let Zack land it:)


Danny

[Jeffery]

Also, some people have a very strange definition of "ridicule".

And some people know exactly what it means

**This part was a quote from another poster**All anyone really needs to do is buy an optical tach, and test/record their particular combinations (same as bench testing a gas engine)......very little money involved. Or am I missing something (a brain???) **End other guy's quote**

You're assuming a bunch of otherwise identical setups are sitting around, waiting to be tested. There is no way I'd trust the numbers sent in by a bunch of fanboys!

Calling somebody a "fanboy" isn't exactly a compliment, it's more along the lines of ridicule.

Now keep in mind that back when these posts were made, I was the only guy advocating RPM measurement as an indication of system performance. And this is just a sample.

Seems that the difference between 6000 and 6100 RPM is more relevant now days

What's with the fixation with tach? On a 150kv motor with 12S, you're going to be around 6000 rpm. Unlike IC where the rpm will change dramatically with prop, electric doesn't change all that much (within reason of course). Instead Amps will go up or down.

Besides, taching here at San antonio is going to be very different than taching at Colorado springs where Scott Stoops live.

In the end, what's important is the video. How does it perform? Does it have adequate punch out? I SAW this plane in person, and it is just fine. It flies like any 16 aircraft does on a DA50.

By now also, any of the regular koolaid drinkers will tell you, trust the Peanut. He knows what he's doing, and if he says it's good.... then it is.

FWIW, I've had this setup on my 19.2 lb 35% Dalton 260, and it's adequate for what I need it to do. You can see the video of that also on the thread.

I posted a link to a video, and now have to be sure my RPM readings are within 100 RPM. Since I had a unfounded fixation with RPM back then, why are RPM suddenly of any importance now?

Here's why RPM don't matter

DING DING DING DING!
Give the guy a prize.
I actually have a tach but I have not useds it since I cannot remember.
My guess is you have been flying electrics a long time and can remember when we had to wring every % efficiency from the power system to get good performance. We did not do much 3D then either. Nowadays sport flyers could care less about testing this and that setup to find the absolute best efficiency because we are too busy flying.

They seem to be taking an interest all of a sudden.

And verification from the first guy in the thread that asked me for an RPM reading. Matters now, I guess

Feather nailed it!!!

The RPM does count when comparing inrunner watts to outrunner watts, but I think I speak for more then most of the gang in this thread when I say that I build planes to fly, if I can receive enough power from the A60 to make me smile when I fly a 16 pound plane, then I'm not about to go looking for a motor that is twice as expensive, with a gearbox that is twice as likely to have a failure, just so that I can squeeze another few minutes or prop RPM out of the flight.

When your flinging one of these big boys around, your ready to land after 7 minutes. And even then, with the A60, you still only put about 3000 mah back in your packs, so you still can squeeze more time out if you want.

What we do know is that several of us have tried the A60 setup (myself included), and for the price, it is a VERY powerful setup. It might not be the most efficient, it might not be the lightest, but its the best all around.

What's great about this hobby, is the ability to choose your own setup. If you want to take a high end inrunner, and strap it to the front of a 3DH 87" Extra SHP, then we would ALL love to hear about the results, but for now, this thread is about the 87" Extra SHP.... not Inrunner vs Outrunner.

Unless the twice as expensive motor is anything except an inrunner, I reckon. Oh, and RPM don't matter.

And the final word

Watts are watts :D.

There ya go.

[jfv61]

...my SHP needs a bit taller gear or I need to let Zack land it:)
Thanks for sharing, Danny. I'll have to post a picture of my SHP with the 4.5" wheels, might help with your 26" :)

[blucor basher]

http://www.mascotcartoon.com/images/energizer.jpg

[Warbirds Rule]

I hesitate to post a question here as this seems to be a pretty hostile thread but here goes........what db does the Neu test at? The power looks like it's awesome but I've heard of at least one Neu powered F3A competition plane failing the sound test at the Nats. In the video it doesn't sound very loud at all but since my club has a 94db noise limit (which I believe is the same as what they have at the Nats) it's a very real concern for me. I'm wondering if this is one of the reasons Shulman switched from a Hacker C50 to a Plettenberg this year?

Thanks,

Sean

[NumbSkull]

Well put Ben...

Some folks are never happy....

[Fig Jam]

Okay guys lets get this thread back on topic! I know a lot of animosity was carried over from another thread, but let's forget all that. I promise to behave and I hope everyone else does too.

Lets start off by evaluating why we chose the Motor we did for our big birds. I'll tell you why I went with what I did in my next post, Ben, could you tell us all why you chose the Hacker A60 for the 87" Extra and if they were any other contenders at the time?

Mike

[KatManDEW]

I hesitate to post a question here as this seems to be a pretty hostile thread but here goes........what db does the Neu test at? The power looks like it's awesome but I've heard of at least one Neu powered F3A competition plane failing the sound test at the Nats. In the video it doesn't sound very loud at all but since my club has a 94db noise limit (which I believe is the same as what they have at the Nats) it's a very real concern for me. I'm wondering if this is one of the reasons Shulman switched from a Hacker C50 to a Plettenberg this year?

Thanks,

Sean

I have a couple Hacker C50-XL's, and I can't believe there is any way they are anywhere near 94db. If there is any kind of two-stroke or four stroke plane in the air as the same time as one of my C50's, the pilot of the IC powered plane gets nervous because they can't hear where my airplane is at.

[NumbSkull]

I wonder if it was from the prop noise? I know the larger APC-E props make some noise when they start to cavitate and/or rip air at upper throttle levels.

[blucor basher]

Mike - good question.

Although 3DHS is growing (by leaps and bounds, currently, which we are thankful for) it started very, very humbly. Lots of scraping together a few dollars here and there happened to afford that first container of aircraft, etc.

We started working on giant-scale electric aircraft years ago. Some of our first few baby steps are chronicled in this forum. We learned along the way. When your hobby business is small, you can't afford the big buy-ins of the big distributors, so you have to buy from the independent guys. We got into a Hyperion dealership early on, so our first choice in GS motors wre Hyperions. As Hyperion released larger and larger motors, we were able to do larger and larger aircraft.

We experienced some notable failures, however, and I discussed them with several people in the industry, and everyone was either mystified or not interested until I discussed them with Sean Plummer from Hacker. He immediately zeroed in on the problem, explained how a similar problem had come to light in their testing and had been corrected as part of development. He gave me a lot of other useful advice, despite the fact that we were not Hacker dealers at the time and were not able to buy-in at that point. BTW, his analysis was correct, and that gave me confidence in their testing program.

So, we bought a few Hacker A60-18L's. This was a long time ago. We still own them (a few have passed along to customers, Jfv61 has one of the now). We still fly them all the time. The reliability has been 100%, really 100%. Lots of people in lots of threads have complained that GS electrics have been unreliable for them, so it was very important to us, as we developed our first GS airframes, that we have a 100% reliable power system to pair them with. We've always used the Hackers for airframe testing, because testing requires reliability.

As to power, the A60-18L (on 12s and 24x12) produced very similar thrust to a 50CC gas engine on 22x8, although it does not unload to as high a speed (on a 24x12 and 12S). This makes sense...a good 50CC makes about 5 HP (3700-3900W or so) whereas the Hacker *draws* about this much but loses about 15% to heat. That lost 15% is reflected (in our setups) with the lower speed.

Lately, because I'm interested, I've been intentionally torturing one of my Hackers to try to fail it. I've been running an A60-16L on a 24X12 Xoar (which draws in the high 90's amps). It's now on about 60 hard flights. If it does fail, it will be the first failure of the A60 for us...I'm still waiting. Even though this is far beyond the rating of the motor, I can't help but have confidence in it, after 60 flights. Excellent performance, BTW.

So, to sum up, we use the Hacker A60L a lot for reliability, because that is most important to us. We deal with lots of pilots, and ultimately, for 99% of people setting up a giant scale electric, reliability is the #1 criteria they give us in recomending products.

We continue to test other products, and when we find one that doesn't blow up, we'll report it (because we have blown up some other brands along the way).

[drstillpatient]

I continue to be very interested in that Neu geared setup, I'm seriously considering it as the powertrain for a Extreme Flight Extra 88". This bird requires something stronger than a 50cc i hear/read. more towards 60cc.

Can someone point me to a motor mount to use with the Neu? espirit has some good ones, but i dont know which particular one to use. Any other motor mounts out there for the Neu geared setup?

[drstillpatient]

Ben, about the Hacker A60, You mentioned good performance with a 24x12 prop and that 24x12 XOAR pulled more amps, in the 90s...were your early tests on the A60 with the 24x12 APCe?

[Fig Jam]

My latest project is a Composite ARF YAK 55SP, wingspan is 83" and it's designed for a DA50 with a dry weight of 16~17 lbs. This model wouldn't have been one I would have chosen normally due to the cost involved but, lets just say I got a really good deal on it!

This size in electric is new territory for me, so the first thing I did was to search and see if anyone else had done a conversion, but no luck, I was on my own. Next thing was to take a close look at the airframe to see if I could shave any weight off, again not much luck, COMP ARF's are all molded and built light to start with, I couldn't really see any way to easily save weight with the exception of the Aluminum wing tube.

I reckoned I would be looking at an AUW of around 17 lbs with a 12s 5000mAh pack. Now to find a Motor to do this sucker justice! I looked at the Hacker A60 long can series, the AXI 5345 series, big Hyperion's and exchanged messages with Lucien Miller regarding the up coming 55mm Scorpion Motors. As you can see all my initial research was Outrunner specific. I came to the conclusion that the Hacker would probably be the best choice due the the extra support that the Hacker Motor Mount provided, the last thing I wanted to do was to start throwing magnets :eek: .

Inrunners hadn't entered my head at this point and I was ready to order my Hacker, but a little voice kept asking me "are you sure you'll have enough power" I'd already purchased my Battery Packs (2x 6c 5000mAh TP V2) and didn't want to push them past 90~95 Amps to try and keep them alive as long as possible. So I was looking at 4000Watts PIN Max. I'd read somewhere that the bigger electrics really needed in excess of 225 Watts PIN to come alive and I would be awfully close to that.

Then by chance I read a couple of threads that sang the praise's of the Neu Inrunners, namely the Neu 1521/1.5Y and 6.7:1 HD gearbox, it seemed like it would be a lot of trouble to fit one of these things to my nice new shiny toy, but it did seem to offer a lot more power at a more economical Amperage. Trouble was you couldn't get a hold of one for love nor money and Castle/Neu had a 3 to 4 month waiting list :( . I posted a Wanted Ad here at RCG asking if anyone had a 'like new Neu' that they would be willing to let go, as luck would have it one kind soul replied to my Ad and offered me just the motor I was looking for. I took the deal and started to read up on how to mount a torpedo to the front end of a Gasser.

That where I'm at now, I reckon another week or so it should be ready to fly, hopefully it won't scare me silly with the power as I'm going to start out with a 24x10. once the maiden is over I'll post some Photo's and Motor data but until then here's a Photo of what it will look like minus that oily thing at the front!

Mike

[Fig Jam]

I continue to be very interested in that Neu geared setup, I'm seriously considering it as the powertrain for a Extreme Flight Extra 88". This bird requires something stronger than a 50cc i hear/read. more towards 60cc.

Can someone point me to a motor mount to use with the Neu? espirit has some good ones, but i dont know which particular one to use. Any other motor mounts out there for the Neu geared setup?

If you want to use the Espirit mount you want the Type 101 here http://www.espritmodel.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=729

Mike

[blucor basher]

I continue to be very interested in that Neu geared setup, I'm seriously considering it as the powertrain for a Extreme Flight Extra 88". This bird requires something stronger than a 50cc i hear/read. more towards 60cc.

I think so, yes. I own one and consider my Brilelli 60CC to be adequate power for it...I don't think I'd be happy with less. So, I was pretty confident in saying that the A60-18L was not going to be enough, until we flew with Ryan Archer whose 88" EF Yak was reported to be A60-18L powered (couldn't see inside the cowl, but I trust him) and it had excellent power. That's a bit confusing to me. Mine does weigh about 19 lbs. Probably a better choice for Neu or A80 or GR-70.

[blucor basher]

Ben, about the Hacker A60, You mentioned good performance with a 24x12 prop and that 24x12 XOAR pulled more amps, in the 90s...were your early tests on the A60 with the 24x12 APCe?

The difference is the windings. The one I'm abusing in the high 90's is the -16L, the others are all -18L.

[BoneDoc]

Good luck with your maiden Mike. She sure is a purdy bird.

[Jeffery]

I hesitate to post a question here as this seems to be a pretty hostile thread but here goes........what db does the Neu test at? The power looks like it's awesome but I've heard of at least one Neu powered F3A competition plane failing the sound test at the Nats. In the video it doesn't sound very loud at all but since my club has a 94db noise limit (which I believe is the same as what they have at the Nats) it's a very real concern for me. I'm wondering if this is one of the reasons Shulman switched from a Hacker C50 to a Plettenberg this year?

Thanks,

Sean

Dan Landis claims to have flown a Neu motor at the Nats this year.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10255893&postcount=11

[MLT67]

MLT67,

Can you change the thread title to include all manufacturers?

Mike
Done -

This thread was created to discuss all power system primarily for 3DHS and EF Giant Scale planes but can and should include ANY 3D Giant Scale planes. The primary goal I had in mind was to be inclusive - not exclusive and I like what's being posted so far.



MLT

[Jeffery]

I continue to be very interested in that Neu geared setup, I'm seriously considering it as the powertrain for a Extreme Flight Extra 88". This bird requires something stronger than a 50cc i hear/read. more towards 60cc.



I run the exact same power system in my Extreme Flight 88" Extra as I do in my 3DHS 87" SHP. Even though the EF is a heavier plane, it's still got extremely good power with this set up. It was the hot rod to beat before the lighter SHP came along.

[AllBread]

It would be great to see what elevation people are when posting numbers. I'm at 5300 feet, and if you didn't know that you would think that something was wrong with my batteries when I told you prop used vs amps drawn. There's really no way to accuratly compare if you aren't aware of any difference in elevation between two sets of specs posted.

Thanks for humoring me,
Ryan

[KatManDEW]

Ryan: Have you tried playing with Motocalc and adjusting the elevation in Motocalc, to see if it gives results similar to what you measure, and results similar to what others post?

[NumbSkull]

I'm not familar with the different mounts for the Neu, and I'm sure your already aware of it, but from what I've read up on them, the biggest thing you need to watch for is rear support.

I've seen a few busted mounts from the motor not being supported in the back. Most of the mounted Neus I've seen either use zip ties and tie the motor back to each individual mount leg, or they use bit of light ply with a whole cut out to match the diamiter of the motor to keep the motor from moving due to gyroscopic effects of the prop disk.

[NumbSkull]

I've got a quick question to go along with some of this.

What type of temps is "safe" for lipos. I've seen people post all over the board on what the temps of their packs are after a hard flight, and am curious what other's are ending up at.

[Jeffery]

I'm not familar with the different mounts for the Neu, and I'm sure your already aware of it, but from what I've read up on them, the biggest thing you need to watch for is rear support.

I've seen a few busted mounts from the motor not being supported in the back. Most of the mounted Neus I've seen either use zip ties and tie the motor back to each individual mount leg, or they use bit of light ply with a whole cut out to match the diamiter of the motor to keep the motor from moving due to gyroscopic effects of the prop disk.

I've seen busted aluminum front plates on some mounts, that's why I don't use aluminum. I've been using G-10 for years as the front plate on my mounts. It's fiber reinforced phenolic that resists fracturing, unlike aluminum. I'm fairly confident I wouldn't need any rear support at all, but put it in there just to be on the safe side, a couple of grams well spent I guess.

[KatManDEW]

I've seen a few busted mounts from the motor not being supported in the back. Most of the mounted Neus I've seen either use zip ties and tie the motor back to each individual mount leg, or they use bit of light ply with a whole cut out to match the diamiter of the motor to keep the motor from moving due to gyroscopic effects of the prop disk.

Same deal with the Hacker C50-XL's. I used FRP (fiberglass reinforced plastic, like circuit board material) at the rear of my Neu 2215.

[markusvt]

Great question. So many variables, lot's of data that would need collecting and looking at for a useful answer. The guys at Xcite Battery say this:

First and Foremost : The Xcite battery will help pilots determine why their battery failed. A very high percent of all Lipo degradation is from excessive heat due to improper configuration or throttle management. The Xcite sensor also provides a visual aid to monitor battery temperature while charging. Do not remove sensor from pack as it will void any warranty.

How Xcite Battery and its sensor technology work:Each battery comes equipped with a heat sensor that reads from 140º to 180 º. No need to guess if your battery is too hot. If your battery's sensor indicates one of these temperatures, do the following:

140 ° Moderate Heat Buildup: Battery pack has sustained maximum load and should not be pushed beyond this point in future or cycle life may be inhibited. Better throttle management is required or ESC/ motor configuration is too demanding on battery.

150 ° High Heat Buildup: Battery pack has been pushed to threshold of its potential and a deterioration of its performance and cycles may be inhibited. Better throttle management is required or ESC/ motor configuration is too demanding on battery.

160 ° Extreme Heat Buildup: Disconnect battery immediately and remove from battery compartment. Observe battery pack for 20 minutes in a safe area to determine if battery has cooled. Inspect battery for swelling. The battery pack has sustained a substantial draw of current and deterioration of its performance and cycles may be inhibited.

170-180° Severe Heat Buildup:Disconnect battery immediately and remove from plane or heli. Observe battery pack for 20 minutes in a safe area to determine if battery has cooled. Inspect battery for swelling. The battery chemistry is altered at 160 ° F and will sustain probable damage.

Replacement sensors are $2.00 free shipping and no profit is made from purchase of sensors. You must have same email address when requesting another sensor as your purchase order. Sensors are for Xcite Battery customers only. Replacement sensor is a temperature strip that is 1 3/4 inch by 3/4 inch and reads from 130 to 160 degrees F.

WARNING: The heat sensor is for quality control purposes and once a temperature is reached, it is permanently blacked in on the associated temperature rating.

I've got a quick question to go along with some of this.

What type of temps is "safe" for lipos. I've seen people post all over the board on what the temps of their packs are after a hard flight, and am curious what other's are ending up at.

[tho98027]

Lately, because I'm interested, I've been intentionally torturing one of my Hackers to try to fail it. I've been running an A60-16L on a 24X12 Xoar (which draws in the high 90's amps). It's now on about 60 hard flights. If it does fail, it will be the first failure of the A60 for us...I'm still waiting. Even though this is far beyond the rating of the motor, I can't help but have confidence in it, after 60 flights. Excellent performance, BTW.


Hey Ben, How much more ooommphh are you seeing with the 16L vs. the 18L? So it sounds like it's probably pulling about 7-8 more amps over the 18L?

[KatManDEW]

I rarely see much over 100° F on my batteries, but some guys fly in ambient temps hotter than that, so their batteries probably get hotter than mine :)

One thing is for sure - the nicer you are to your batteries, the nicer they will be to you. If you push 'em hard, they won't last as long (not as many cycles). That's one of the main reasons I prefer lower amperage/wattage setups whenever I can use them for my application. I like very powerful setups, in terms of usable flight power (thrust/speed), but I prefer to avoid extremely high current loads if I can.

[sun.flyer]

I rarely see much over 100° F on my batteries, but some guys fly in ambient temps hotter than that, so their batteries probably get hotter than mine :)

One thing is for sure - the nicer you are to your batteries, the nicer they will be to you. If you push 'em hard, they won't last as long (not as many cycles). That's one of the main reasons I prefer lower amperage/wattage setups whenever I can use them for my application. I like very powerful setups, in terms of usable flight power (thrust/speed), but I prefer to avoid extremely high current loads if I can.


Don,

How long of flight times do you get running your Neu motor in your 33% Extra?

Tim

[KatManDEW]

I don't know Tim. The longest I've ever flown was a little over 7 minutes, and I don't remember exactly how much I put back into the packs, but I think it was only around 4000 mah, and they are 8000 mah packs. That wasn't a hard 3D flight. I still don't have the cahoonas to flip the Extra around like I (try to) do with smaller stuff :)

[ekotil]

I don't know Tim. The longest I've ever flown was a little over 7 minutes, and I don't remember exactly how much I put back into the packs, but I think it was only around 4000 mah, and they are 8000 mah packs. That wasn't a hard 3D flight. I still don't have the cahoonas to flip the Extra around like I (try to) do with smaller stuff :)I know that feeling!

[sun.flyer]

I don't know Tim. The longest I've ever flown was a little over 7 minutes, and I don't remember exactly how much I put back into the packs, but I think it was only around 4000 mah, and they are 8000 mah packs. That wasn't a hard 3D flight. I still don't have the cahoonas to flip the Extra around like I (try to) do with smaller stuff :)

Man I wish I could have made it down to your Fly-In. I would have flipped the switch on that Extra (if given the opportunity). :)

Tim

[blucor basher]

Hey Ben, How much more ooommphh are you seeing with the 16L vs. the 18L? So it sounds like it's probably pulling about 7-8 more amps over the 18L?

More like 12 or 13.

[MarkF]

The kv ratings on the 19 and 22 series motor are soft numbers. I have ran a 2215 1y 1400 kv on 10s in a boat and I have the current mono record with this motor at 82 mph. This motor is now 3 years old and no problems to date. Thanks for posting your video Jeff. Now people can see what the Neu motors are capable of power wise. For motor mounts I like and have the 101 from esprit models.

Mark

[F1 Rocket]

I've had a few inquiries as to why I went with the 1524 vs. the 1521 or A60-xxL on my SHP. I've had a couple of 1521 and A60 powered airplanes and I knew what both of these setups were capable of. The problem I've always had with these is that they both tend to push my packs a bit with the kind of flying I normally do. I don't 3D much but I do tend to fly a very compact pattern with a lot of vertical climbs. This puts a lot of heat into things as I am on the power for long lengths of time. The A60's run great and are just about bullet proof but they are not as efficient as the Neu's and therefore more of the available power in the packs is wasted in heat rather than used to turn the prop. The 1521 has the efficiency but is still a bit of a pack burner with me at the sticks so the quest was for a better overall package for the way that I fly. In conversation with Steve Neu, he suggested the 1524 as it has a bit lower KV and could swing a bigger prop more efficiently but at a lower overall power level (do to the max amount of prop I can fit on the SHP) than the 1521. This setup works perfectly for me. I get long flight times, the extra braking from the longer prop really slows the airplane on the downlines, and everything stays nice and cool. Everyone who has flown the airplane has been really impressed with both the amount of power and the effortless way the system runs. The only down side with 1524 was the almost unbelievably length of time it took to get the thing.

Danny


Danny

[drstillpatient]

Ben, or anyone with experience with both the APC 24x12e and the Xoar 24x12E, which one of the two has been found to be better in terms of thrust and amps?
Also, with the 50cc electric powertrains, how's the Xoar E-F3A series props vs the Xoar PJN electric props?

[F1 Rocket]

Ben, or anyone with experience with both the APC 24x12e and the Xoar 24x12E, which one of the two has been found to be better in terms of thrust and amps?
Also, with the 50cc electric powertrains, how's the Xoar E-F3A series props vs the Xoar PJN electric props?

I've run the APC 24x12e, Xoar 24x12e, and Xoar 25x12e back to back. The Xoar 24 pulled less current, made less noise, but made less thrust than the APC 24. The Xoar 25 pulled less current and made more thrust than the APC 24. I've run the Xoar 26x12 as well but I don't have any numbers on it. All in all I prefer the Xoar. I just wish they weren't so easy to break.

Danny

[drstillpatient]

I've run the APC 24x12e, Xoar 24x12e, and Xoar 25x12e back to back. The Xoar 24 pulled less current, made less noise, but made less thrust than the APC 24. The Xoar 25 pulled less current and made more thrust than the APC 24. I've run the Xoar 26x12 as well but I don't have any numbers on it. All in all I prefer the Xoar. I just wish they weren't so easy to break.

Danny

Danny, thanks for that info, any word on the XOAR E-F3A 24x12 series props on 12S? any comparisons with the Xoar PJN electric props AND the APC-e in this size?
Ben what do you think? you have the XOAR series props at your website

[BoneDoc]

Yep, he's got them :).

[Get Real]

Something id really like to see besides numbers,ratings etc is the actual performance of these set ups in the air,theres very little video of the inrunner set ups and even less pictures showing how there mounted or the additional bracing etc involved,inrunner geared set ups are less popular these days with the better lipos that are out and the outrunner motors dominate the electric market and mount easily to most planes with little or no modification and thats why i would like to see more videos and pictures showing myself as well as others whats involved in mounting an inrunner set up reliably for high stress manuevers. Ive run both types of power systems only in smaller aircraft and realize the pros and cons to both,looking forward to more pictures of set ups and videos of all these set ups in the air where things really count.

[Jeffery]

There's no additional bracing required, they mount up to the same firewall as an outrunner with no modification to the airframe. Since they are typically lighter than the outrunner, there is even less stress on the firewall. Better batteries are as beneficial to an inrunner as an outrunner.

[KatManDEW]

I've had a few inquiries as to why I went with the 1524 vs. the 1521 or A60-xxL on my SHP. I've had a couple of 1521 and A60 powered airplanes and I knew what both of these setups were capable of. The problem I've always had with these is that they both tend to push my packs a bit with the kind of flying I normally do. I don't 3D much but I do tend to fly a very compact pattern with a lot of vertical climbs. This puts a lot of heat into things as I am on the power for long lengths of time. The A60's run great and are just about bullet proof but they are not as efficient as the Neu's and therefore more of the available power in the packs is wasted in heat rather than used to turn the prop. The 1521 has the efficiency but is still a bit of a pack burner with me at the sticks so the quest was for a better overall package for the way that I fly. In conversation with Steve Neu, he suggested the 1524 as it has a bit lower KV and could swing a bigger prop more efficiently but at a lower overall power level (do to the max amount of prop I can fit on the SHP) than the 1521. This setup works perfectly for me. I get long flight times, the extra braking from the longer prop really slows the airplane on the downlines, and everything stays nice and cool. Everyone who has flown the airplane has been really impressed with both the amount of power and the effortless way the system runs. The only down side with 1524 was the almost unbelievably length of time it took to get the thing.

Danny


Danny

Very interesting Danny. Thanks. I'm pretty much set on the idea of a Neu for a 50cc size plane, and I wondered about the 1524. I don't have the 1524 data in Motocalc, but since Neu publishes all that info, I can easily enter it into Motocalc and compare the 1524 and 1521.

There are lots of factors involved with selecting a large electric setup, and since batteries for GS planes are a major expense, one thing that ties into the selection process for me is how hard I will be pushing those expensive batteries. So one thing that might be interesting to hear is the lifespan folks are getting out of their batteries at the level they are pushing them.

[Jeffery]

There is no published data on the 1524, they are still a made to order item. You can determine the Kv, it's 1/2 way between the same wind 1521 and 1527.

Since I'm propped for just less than 20C discharge at WOT, I think that's about as good as I can hope for on a 12S system. Any more than that, and you are looking at some dismal flight times, any less and it wouldn't have the performance I'm used to. All I can do is use those 90A as best I can.

Since I'm running a Y wind, I can advance the timing and get a good boost in power. I'm still at low timing, going up to standard will yield about a 20% increase in power. That would put me just under the limit for my ESC (108A), and almost exactly where the calc on the Neu site says I should be. I don't really need it, 90A is fine.

[Get Real]

Some pictures would dispell any misconceptions there may be on mounting an inrunner in a particular application,i guess it depends on the plane its mounted in,typically a geared inrunner like the ones being discussed here are longer do to the gearbox being attached to the front of the motor as one modular unit,outrunners use standoffs typically to achieve proper depth for cowl clearance if needed since typically they have a shorter overall depth or they bolt right up without standoffs. The reason i ask is because ive only used inrunners in smaller applications and the pictures ive seen in .40 to .90 size aircraft geared inrunners were recessed into the firewall and had two mounting plates to brace the entire unit(an additonlal plate to stabilize the motor itself) not just to hold the gearbox unit,where as outrunners just have a back plate for mounting. I really think some pictures of how there mounted would be helpful to those unfamilar with inrunners in larger applications. Ive run both types of set ups in smaller applications and detailed in text the info but sometimes it doesnt come across in text and replys asked for pictures to see the actual install.. i think nothing of snapping a pic or some video if i can to illustrate something that doesnt completly convey in just text for those interested.

[Jeffery]

The distance from the firewall to the back of the spinner is set, regardless of what motor you use, not sure what the "misconceptions" might be. On some of the smaller models with motor cages, I've had to recess the motor can back past the plane of the front of the motor cage, but not past the firewall. I've never had to recess a motor can back past the firewall on any planes that would qualify for this particular forum, I don't think any are going to be longer than a 50+ cc gasser and standoffs. Also, the Hacker mount popular with the A60-L outrunner motors support both the front and rear of the motor.

[jfv61]

Jeff, you got any pictures? I too would be very interested in seeing the mount. I know what the hacker mount looks like :) and yes it is front and rear. I'm very intrigued by the power you're getting...

[Jeffery]

Sure, here's a 47" SHP with a 1107 Neu, penetrates the plane of the front of the motor cage. Next is a Lehner 1930 in a 58" EF Extra, motor cage removed, doesn't penetrate the firewall.

ETA, that's another thing about the larger Neus, the little 1107/Maxon needed a grub screw installed to keep the gearbox from unscrewing. The Reisenauer on the Lehner would also unscrew if not for the clamshell I put on there. The P32 and up Neu boxes are bolted on, no unscrewing.

[MarkF]

Here you go. This is off of my magic hand 30% yak. The flat mount that comes with outrunners have no adjustments and your stuck making something to get the motor out to were you want it. Hacker and several others make motor mounts for inrunners and outrunners that are adjustable. Its no different which style of motor you choose. This is the mount from esprit models. I like it better than the Hacker because its bigger and stronger.

Mark