Tow plane info

[quietflyer]

I am trying to collect as much info on non-scale tugs as I can before I commit myself to a design and suitable gas engine. I have seen the Pegasus in action but want to hear more from all you experienced pilots out there regarding other tugs like the Senior Telemaster, Robin(?) 99, TowNado etc. Where can you buy these tugs ?
BTW, has anyone tried the H9 100" J-3 Cub, H9 Super Cub, or the Bruce Tharpe Engineering Super Flying King as tugs, and what powerplants are you using? I realize that the above planes are very new.
Any advice will be most appreciated.

[GoodTill]

I am also in the market for a tug. I had a 100 Hanger 9 Cub but sold it due to the fact that you could not fit a big enough engine on it. It had a G23 and I would have liked to go to a 40 or 50 cc motor.
There is a Super Cub at my LHS, but again I think it would not fit either. I have to take a look at it.

We have 2 tugs in our club, a Laser with a G62 and a Bird Dog with a ZDZ80. People have said that the 1/3 scale Space walker would make a good tug. I would love to have a Wilga, but at the prices that they are going for ,I can not justify it yet. I see that Icare has on for $750.00 or so.


What we need is a mid wing ARF with about 1000 sq and a semi-symetrical wing that can take a 40 to 50 cc motor for 400.00 bucks. Have landing gear that can take the abuse and clear a 22 in prop.
Figure on another 400.00 to 600.00 for a motor and about 200.00 in radio equip. That puts you about 1200.00 for a tub.

[quietflyer]

Thanks for the info on the H9 planes.The LHS don't have them on display. Wish they could take larger engines in the 50-60 cc. range. Maybe Peter Goldsmith from JR is reading this......

You are right on with the specs on the ARF tugs, sounds a lot like the Pegasus but at half the cost !! The TowNado looks like an interesting alternative to the Pegasus. Does anyone have any info on it re: cost/availability/specs ?

It looks like the Robinhood 99 and Sr. Telemaster are no longer available. The ICARE Wilga tug looks interesting in terms of pricing for a scale ARF tug , but like you , I cannot justify it yet.

[scalesoar]

I have some answers and insights for all of you guys. Granted I sell the Pegasus, designed it, re-designed it twice, and am about to do it again. But I can be un biased and report some observations.
First. speaking of scaletugs, (which was not the subject of the original post) Cubs do not tow very well at any scale, (if they are the standard long wing versions). They are somewhat tip stall prone and relatively slow, plus fragile.
I have seen a Vaillencourt 86" Bird Dog with a ZDZ 80 tow very well, in fact it towed my 6 meter ship nicely. The only problem with the smaller wing span tugs when towing larger gliders is visibility. The tug tends to get very small relative to the glider.

Scale tugs are great for realism, and there are few better than the Frisch Wilga, expensive, but you do get what you pay for. Most scale tow planes have certain vulnerabilities. These tend to center around high maitainence, durability, and ease of flying. but if scale tow planes are your thing, they add to the scale effect.
I have spoken with Peter Goldsmith from Horizon about their Hangar nine line. His only recomendation for ther 40-50cc motor range was their new (yet to be released) Cessna 182. this plane will take a 40-50cc motor without much beefing up.
Actually Steve Rojecki had a small Hangar nine Taylorcraft with a ZDZ 40cc at Pensacola last week. He did great towing up to light 5 meter ships. But you need to know that he is an expert pilot who won the TOC competition about 5 years ago, and beefed up the airframe to suit. Again the small size is a disadvantage at altitude.

The Townado (Pete George's name for it) is actually a German Kit not available any longer. There are about 4 of them flying in the U.S. This ship requires expert flying skills because it is relativly small span, carries an 80cc motor, and goes fast. A good tug, but not for everyone.

We started towing with Telemasters 10 years ago. I would not reccomend these today,. They are difficult to land quickly, are no good in wind, and have a flat bottom airfoil. A great trainer, and perhaps a good first towplane if you have not flown power before. They are very easy to fly. They do need beefing up for tow duty.

Now in support of the Pegasus. Shameless promotion...
I have spent years using everything imaginable for towing. Almost any large stable plane with a big motor will work. What attributes do you want in a tug?

stability
durability, gear to airframe
visibility
reliability
easily repairable
low maintainence
low cost


While you may argue that the Pegasus is not cheap, ($580.00 for a sheeted kit) It is not too far off your target price.
It is a proven tug, with over 2500 tows on my prototype. It is designed to fly easily in any wind condition. Unless you only fly on calm days, you want a tug that will penetrate wind, handle crosswinds on approach, and be easy to fly in all conditions.
I want to mention some latest specs on the Pegasus. The all up weight of the airframe, including servos gear, wheels less covering and batteries and motor is now 19 pounds. I just sold one to a fellow to use a Brison 4.8 twin. They fly very well with a ZDZ 80cc single, and have nearly unlimited vertical with that motor. (about $550.00)
So if you are looking for cheaper generic non scale tug, there are OK planes available for a little less money, and some if not all will tow quite well. The 8 Ball Special by Reid's model products is an example fine tug for 60cc motors, but you have to beef up the wing, add stronger gear etc. For the extra work you get a nice towplane for up to 30 pound sailplanes.
I don't need to sell more Pegasii, I sell enough to satisfy the market at this point, and more importantly just enough to preserve my sanity!! But the work has been done, It is simply the best purpose designed tug available for any size sailplane. But don't take my word for it, ask any or all members of the more established aerotow groups around the U.S.

Happy towing,
And don't hesitate to ask questions on specific airframes your interested in, I might have flown them.
John D.
Endless Mountain Models (http://www.scalesoaring.net)

[GoodTill]

John
Thanks for all that info. I new that would chime in on this soon enough. You have made some great point in the post. While all the equipment you sell is top notch, I think we are looking for something a notch down.

While it is true that the smaller tugs are harder to see at alt, they are easier on the wallet and are easier to transport. I think that what we are looking for is a base level tug. Something that will fly on a 40 to 50 cc motor and tow up to a 5m glider. I have a Rodell Discus 2A that is 4 meters on the bench now. All of my freinds have similar sized gliders. So I guess what I'm saying is that we need a beginner tug?

My bench is full with the Discus 2A. I purchased it because it what a good value for the price. I picked it up from a freind who got it from you. I do not want to finish it and start to build a tug for it. I only fly electrics and this would be my only gas plane. It seems that if there was an ARF for about $400.00 that was butt ugly , could just mount a 40-50 cc motor and a tow release and go towing. This would be a great help.

While the Pegasus is a great tug, I have seen you tow with it, it is to big for me. While you can get the sheeted version for 580.00, you still have to build it and then get a 80-100 cc motor. The ZDZ 80 is probably the cheapest 80 around but it is still going for over 700.00 when you add the muffler, battery, prop drill jig and charger. That puts you close to 1300.00 plus radio eguiptment and finishishig supplies for the plane.

Give me a tug that has a semi wing shoulder mounted, tail dragger, clearence for a 22 in prop, a 2 peice wing about 90 in , a fire wall that will take the 50 cc motor and keep it at about 400.00.

I would rather modify a Talorcraft as you you stated than build one right now. Boy have we gotten lazy in our old age.

Then I will be happy:D :D

[scalesoar]

Good arfs are hard to come by, especially for towing duty. The Lanier Stinger series is a good place to start, but you have to build them, as well as the previously mentioned 8 Ball Special.
Anything worth getting either takes time or costs some money. What value do you put on your Discus? Is it worth a good tow plane? (Not infering you should have a Pegasus to start with)
but you will have to put some effort in beefing up a suitable ARF or build a kit to suit. The Sig 1/3 Spacewalker is a great towplane. However you have to spend time building it. I would highly recomend a 60cc motor as minimum for 5 meter planes.
The Hangar nine Taylorcraft with a ZDZ 40 did OK, it is not meant to bang in or abuse, and it was marginal on larger gliders. It did great torque rolls in the hands of RoJo however.
One thing you should be aware of, mass helps towplanes track more easily on tow, so a bigger heavier tug is easier to fly on tow.
JD

[hbsurfer]

where do you buy the tug?

[davidjensen]

If non-scale is what you want, this is Steve Dents new tug. DA 100 power with cansters and the engine just hangs out in the breeze. Pulled up a 35lb 40% Swift off of grass. Gets the job done.

[hbsurfer]

where can u get that tug davidjensen?

[Billymac]

Goodtill,
I figured I wasn't going to be happy with the G-23, so I opted for the G-38. Then thought...... naaaahhh...
Soooooo....
I have a DA-50 in my Hangar 9 Super Cub.. I think I had to move the Firewall back almost 1 1/2". But when you put the cowl on you can't tell.. Swings a 22-10 prop.. Pulls up all my scale stuff up to 22lbs (so far) with ease. I also had to put a battery pack way in the tail to help with CG issues.. Flies great!! Also put on aftermarket landing gear struts as the originals were too weak. Also put on larger tires for the deeper grass.

Bill