Thermal Newbie -- electric or dlg?

[Rick Lindsey]

Hi guys! I want a glider that I can fly in my backyard (we live on 7.5acres though, so "backyard" is pretty big -- it's mostly desert scrub though so there's not acres of wide-open grass, but rather cacti and mesquite trees). I'm a total newb at flat-field/thermal flying (my only experience so far has been slope with a Weasel-pro, though soon more slope with a Slope Monkey). I think in the long run I want a DLG of some sort, but I was wondering if I'd be better off learning with an electric glider so that I can get more altitude more easily while I learn to find thermals?

thanks,
Rick

[Kenny Sharp]

I would go with the DLG to learn to thermal.
The good part is ...at least you'll get good at launching!

[lincoln]

A large, light electric will be easier to learn to thermal. THese days electrics can be pretty light.

Ken is a dlg fanatic. (It's even on his license plate.) However, that doesn't necessarily mean he's wrong. And if dlg is your eventual interest, you'll probably fly the thing later if you can't figure out how to thermal it now. Plus they make good light air slope planes. For learning I suggest a 1.5 meter polyhedral dlg, but those aren't so easy to find.

[Hossfly72]

PlasticPaul and Doug Montgomery both offer 1.5m DLG's for reasonable prices. At least I think Doug also offers a poly.

[Rick Lindsey]

Plus they make good light air slope planes.

That might be the winning argument ;). My slope flying time is based on convenience to my family, not necesarily when the wind is blowing, so there's definately something to be said for having a DLG along... besides, if I start flying a thermal plane then Murphy will kick in and the wind will start blowing, right?

I was leaning towards a DL-50 to start with, does the extra 8-9 inches of a 1.5m plane make a big difference over a 50" span plane? I'll check both those sources you mentioned.


thanks!

-Rick

[RoteEddie]

I would chose a pure sailplane and a high start. DLG's are very expensive place to start. If your budget is limited the Multiplex Easy Glider is very good. Can handle a lot of landing abuse :)

Even better as a thermaler would probably be a Gentle Lady. Unlimited budget I'd get an Ava or Mini Ava :)

[Double Pappa]

There is a huge difference in the 10". I was doing a 54" plane and it couldn't come close to the 60" planes I am building now. I have a brand new pilot flying my DragonFly which is a dihedral ship and he has no problems. He says it is easier to fly than the poly he was flying because it is very predictable.

I am also very close to having my 3m ship ready to go but that might be tough to discuss launch !!! LOL

[Guz]

DLG's are awesome, but as RoteEddie pointed out, a rather expensive way to start.

I know there are some throwers in Tucson. You might want to hook up with them and see if they would be willing to let you try out DLG with an old beater. See if they would let you spin for a day and let them fly. Then the next day let them spin and you fly. Finally a day for you solo.

We do this routine at our field (Thude Park, aka Chandler bowl), and we've gotten so many people addicted to DLG it's scary (yea, it's really like a drug).

I know there is Tucson Beat the Heat DLG contest.....round two (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=893693) at the end of the month. I'll be doing my first contest there. Swing out and watch, ask questions ;)

As an alternative, I would recommend a Multiplex EasyGlider Pro to start out with (brushless version of the EasyGlider Electric).

[Rick Lindsey]

I know one of the "regulars" at A-mountain usually brings a smallish dlg, I'll try to get out to the DLG contest just to meet folks and see what's going on.

Out of curiosity, several of you have mentioned that DLG's are a rather expensive way to start. Is this just a matter of perspective, or are you talking about something more expensive, than, say a DL-50?

Mostly what I'm looking for out of a DLG is something I can toss in my backyard and while away an evening while the kids play and the bbq smokes, rather than something I can compete with competitively. That said, being able to actually find a thermal would be a Good Thing(tm) -- I don't want to wrench my shoulder out of joint because I'm only getting 30 second flights!

I was originally just going to get a balsa park flyer (telemaster-micro, or maybe a ez-sport from mountain models) but silent flight just has an allure for me (and real boats have sails ;) )

thanks,
Rick

[Fly2High]

Here is my take.

usually you will find that an electric glider tend to have higher wing loadings because, hey, the motor and extra batteries have weight. Can't avoid that. With a higher wing loading it will fly faster than a comparable pure glider.

The best might be a high start and a pure glider.

As for DLGs, they can fly much slower and be flown in tighter places and tend to be very maneuverable. Definitely get the 1.5 or ~60" DLG. the smaller ones tend to be harder to launch high and find lift. You can always tape on a hook and make a small up start (mini high start) to launch it higher than you can initially throw. You might want to hook up with a club and have someone help you with launching. A single tip strike can really ruin your day!!

If you have lots of wind, the heavier electric would be advantageous since it can/should be able to penetrate.

As for thermaling ability it is plane specific. DLGs are very light and can thermal on gopher farts. You will need stronger lift for a heavier loaded plane but since you can turn on the motor, you can get to a higher altitude.

Eitehr way, spending extra to get a good plane (say a Sidwinder II, XP anything, Taboo etc.) would make it loads easier to launch high and thermal. some of the cheaper stuff doesn't penetrate as well, will be harder to thermal and some are just not that durable. I know guys that really beat up on an XP -3,4, or 5 , a Falken, etc. and they keep coming abck for more. It might be better to get a used DLG than a cheaper new plane just because you might progress faster with a good DLG.

Same is true with the electrics. Some are just heavy. Others more manageable in weight but you will have to spend the dollar to get those. Used might be an obtion here too.

If you can fly already, get a full house setup so you can have absolute control to weave in and out of your 'backyard' obstacles.



just my thoughts.....

Good luck and which ever way you go, welcome to a great hobby!!!

Frank

[Guz]

Well, at out field, we have learned the hard way that skimping and going for the least expensive DLG ship, you get what you pay for, which has resulted in major disappointment, frustration.

We've found that either the Sidwinder II or an Ice-Fire is where you want to start out at. Which amounts to ~$300 for the ship alone. A bit a sticker shock, for some of us. Then add small Rx, and servo's, battery, wiring harness, switch jack, yadda, yadda yadda. It adds up.

We do have one person building a DLG-50 right now. He hasn't finished it yet, so I can't really comment on it. BUT it does look promising. We are really looking forward playing with it.

[Double Pappa]

My DragonFly can easily come in under 9oz and is $250 shipped. My flying buddies plane has a wing loading of 4.5oz.

[Rick Lindsey]

Wow, $300 is definately more than I was planning on paying for the airframe... A hi-start is really not a good option for me given the terrain in my yard, which is why I was debating between dlg and electric.

thanks,
Rick

[rob1978]

my vote is for DLG.. remember.. you don't need a nice motor or annoying expensive lipo batteries.. ( which if you go the electric route you will end up wanting a more powerful motor so you don't burn the whole pack just getting to altitude)

i love my ezglider electric.. but when it comes to really learning how to look for, find, and fly thermals.. i truly learned 20x more with my sidewinder II...
once i went back to the ezglider.. it felt like a lead sled compared to the sidewinder.

not to mention that at the end of the day... the planes ended up costing close to the same price being that i bought two lipo packs and upgraded my ez glider to a nice powerful brushless motor... i can get at least 12 climbs on one battery pack! try that with nicads and a brushless motor!!! ;)

[merlinmurph]

Do you have any preference of DLG vs. electric? Any old rotator cuff injuries that wouldn't allow you to launch a DLG?

I started with an EZGlider Electric and learned a lot with it. The next year, I built a Gambler as my first DLG and got hooked. I've learned a lot with it, and have subsequently built a Sidewinder 2.

One limiting factor with an electric is batteries. Once you use all your batteries, your day is done. A DLG battery will generally last longer than your arm will. :D I put CR2's in my Gambler which last longer than 20 hours.

The cheapest way out and what I would suggest would be a Gambler/QF2/DL-50/Apogee Sport/others. It would be a great fit for your field, you'd learn a ton, you'd have a lot of fun, with minimal expense. After that, see where it takes you.

Either way, you can't lose.

[rob1978]

i'd say go with a full house DLG if you're spend the $$ i had a dl50 as my first dlg.. i outgrew it VERY quickly.... learned a lot more when i upgraded to a sidewinder.. if i could do it again, i'd have saved the money spent on DL-50 and gone straight for the sidewinder.

[rdwoebke]

Everything has its plusses and minuses, but one advantage to an electric glider could be if there are objects around your back yard that could cause turbulence, with an electric glider you only fly in the turbulent lower air (say below 150 feet) for launch and landing. With a hand launch, you are probably makeing more launches and landings and possibly spending more time trying to work the lift in the turbulent area (assuming your yard has obsticals near it).

I find that when I fly gliders on somewhat windy days from marginal little fields, that having the ability to launch up and above the turbulence and then do most of the flying above the turbulence increases the fun factor of that day's flying.

Ryan

[Fly2High]

Do you have batteries?

If not, check out what the price is for LiPOs for whatever plane you are going to fly. It might be more than you think.

So if you get an EZSglider
~$70
motor & ESC ~$70-$150

2000mAh LiPO - $40 - 70 each need at lest two -> $80 - $140

charger for LiPO $50-150

$270
I left out servos and Rx since both need that anyway.

For ~$300 you could get a much better DLG than an EZ Glider

It's the motor, ESC and batteries that will take a cheap kit to way over $300, not including servos, and RX, etc.

FYI....

so cheaply tyou are talking about

[slopemeno]

Gentle Lady, a decent radio, and a high-start.

[rdwoebke]

It might be more than you think.

So if you get an EZSglider
~$70
motor & ESC ~$70-$150

2000mAh LiPO - $40 - 70 each need at lest two -> $80 - $140



Good quality knock off equipment can be had for much less than that. The Easy Glider flies great on an A20-20 clone and that can be had for $20 and a good knock off ESC can be had for $35. Same goes for the lipos.

Check out United Hobbies.

Ryan

[jfrickmann]

When I started back in the sport 3 years ago I was set on electrics. Had I known about DLGs I would never have bothered. DLGs are the ultimate thermal fun. And there are many contests flown across the country with several pilots participating. Flying contests is a great way to learn, have fun and meet people. I say go with a DLG!

[Joe Minton]

Rick

Consider landing. You won't have to land as many times with an electric sailplane as you will an HLG. That could be an important factor considering where you live; landing in the desert around Tucson can be tough on models.

I fly sailplanes for sport and have converted entirely to electric-launched models. Electrics allow one to 'take chances' and still get back to the field. They take most of the worry out of learning to thermal. Because they allow multiple climbs per launch, you can spend more time in the air looking for and learning to stay in thermals.

An electric-launched sailplane is, in my opinion, the best learning tool. I have several such planes and I highly recommend the E-Flite "Ascent" as a trainer. It handles and thermals well. If interested in this model, you can find much information about it on various threads here in RCGroups.

Joe

[rdwoebke]

My 2 cents. You said that you also considered an electric fun fly or an electric mini telemaster. I take this to mean you already have lipo chargers and perhaps batteries that you can share with other planes already in your fleet. You also mentioned several models that involve building.

Consider the Guppy. First though check to make sure kits are shipping. Kit is about $90 and you could easily get a United Hobbies outrunner/esc/2S lipo battery for $50. Span and size on it is similar to a DLG. Weight with that gear will probably be similar to a DLG.

The only thing I can't really comment on his how rough on planes your desert landscape is and in that case a DLG could be similarly abused (assuming you don't hand catch the DLG or the Guppy).

<edit> Joe's suggestion on the Ascent would be a good way to go too. <edit>
Ryan

[Fly2High]

Rick,

I just got to point out the obvious here.

EVERYONE who has reported here suggestions wants you to join them with their type of flying.

Few places do I feel have such a nice welcoming nature. Great bunch here and awesome hobby to be included in.

Bite the bullet and buy one of each! This way, while your electric is charging you go throw the DLG. when your arm is tired, the batts will be ready and you can fly electric!!!

Welcome to the flat land family!!!

If you do go DLG, I think there are some 'Blue Skies over....' in your area. I know a few who fly there and they are fantastic guys and great pilots!

[Rick Lindsey]

I appreciate all the info, guys. Right now what I have is an Optic-6 tx, and will have a handful of hextronik 5gram servos and a single 9gram servo once my hobbycity order arrives (the rest of my electronics is either in my Weasel-pro or earmarked for my slope monkey).

I do not yet have any sort of battery charger other than the tx/rx wall-wart that came with the optic, but that has sufficed so far for the Weasel and probably will suffice for the Monkey as well.

If I go dlg, I'm assuming my only expenses will be the glider kit and accessories, a 4-cell nimh/nicad and a new rx.

If I go electric then clearly I'll have additional expenses such as lipo's and a charger (I've seen pretty cheap motor/ESC combo's that I've been assuming would work for an electric glider, but I could be mistaken).

In the sub-$100 range, do I have any choices better than the dl-50/qfII/gambler on the dlg front? I'm guessing that I can't get a complete electric going for less than $150-$200 given the extra expenses?

thanks,
Rick

[rdwoebke]

Bite the bullet and buy one of each!

Or, build a plane that can be used both as a DLG and an electric. If he builds the Gambler, for example, there is a Gambler power pod option. Or if he built the Sidewinder, I wonder if the Lap Dancer fuselage would work with the SW wing. Or I bet it would be easy to build a 2nd fuselage for the DL50.

I don't own a single electric sailplane that is or was not also a regular motorless glider.

So, I agree, Frank, why chose. You can have both!

Ryan

[rdwoebke]

I do not yet have any sort of battery charger other than the tx/rx wall-wart that came with the optic, but that has sufficed so far for the Weasel and probably will suffice for the Monkey as well.

Going forward, as an upgrade to what you have at some point in the future, if I were you I'd consider getting some battery tools that allow more diagnostics. I speak from experience, as a guy who lost 3 RC models due to receiver battery failure.


In the sub-$100 range, do I have any choices better than the dl-50/qfII/gambler on the dlg front?

I bet the Apogee Sport is pretty sweet.

I have seen the Gambler fly and I thought it was a pretty good plane.

I'm guessing that I can't get a complete electric going for less than $150-$200 given the extra expenses?


Probably min on the charger will be about $50. You could get a Skimmer kit (although I think HL dropped production on it) for $35 or so at one point. A skimmer would fly great on 2Slipo ($30 or so, or less), $20 A20-20 outrunner, and a $30 hextronic ESC. $15 or so 12x7 folder.

[rob1978]

i would say for the under 100 mark... the dl50 or gambler are your best choices... but .. a little more $$ will go a long way with DLG's...

the difference between a DL50 and a Sidewinder 2 is about 200 bucks.. but your flights will be 3x as long in dead air with the Sidewinder. i have owned a dl50 and only flew it on flat land... unless i chucked her right into a thermal.. it was VERY hard to range out to find any good lift.. not to mention that i can launch the sidewinder twice as high as the dl50!!!
another thing to think about is the gambler / dl50 is just Rudder Elevator... NO FLAPS... you can figure that once you get good at flying DLG.. you will not be able to slow down or catch a dl50/gambler as well as a ship with flaps... your plane will def. take more abuse landing on the ground rather than in your hands.
do what you like, but if you want to spend more time flying a DLG, then i would def. go for the Sidewinder or Dragonfly (plasticpaul sells the dragonfly for $250 sounds like a nice plane too)

[Indiana_Geoff]

New person here. I would recommend Electric. Yes, you will miss some of the fine details of a light thermal. But with an electric, you can motor around, power through a downdraft, follow, lose and refind a moving thermal and take more chances. After all, you can always power up and move around.

When you hit a boomer and get sucked out of sight, it's just as sweet with an electric.

Let me give you an example, a few nights ago I was out during a good period. With my electric, I would hit the downdraft, motor up, then hit the updraft. If I was hand launching, I would have never found the updraft. I would have been retrieving. With the motor I can climb up and look at the trees to try to see what is going on. You have a lot more options with some power in the plane.

Make your second plane a pure glider.

[rob1978]

New person here. I would recommend Electric. Yes, you will miss some of the fine details of a light thermal. But with an electric, you can motor around, power through a downdraft, follow, lose and refind a moving thermal and take more chances. After all, you can always power up and move around.

When you hit a boomer and get sucked out of sight, it's just as sweet with an electric.

Let me give you an example, a few nights ago I was out during a good period. With my electric, I would hit the downdraft, motor up, then hit the updraft. If I was hand launching, I would have never found the updraft. I would have been retrieving. With the motor I can climb up and look at the trees to try to see what is going on. You have a lot more options with some power in the plane.

Make your second plane a pure glider.


there is some truth to what you're saying... i actually had an ezglider electric first and then went to a DLG... but i have to say.. i don't think i
"learned" how to thermal with my electric... i just floated around the air high enough to be able to STUMBLE into lift.. sure it felt good, but i didn't actually learn how to really read the air and recognize lift until i flew my sidewinder.

a DLG is like a thermal sniffing machine.. my ezglider would just plow through light lift... or medium lift sometimes too :o

when i was flying my ez glider electric... i think the motor really was a crutch and hindered my learning curve.

[glidagida]

Hi Rick

For under $100 the DLG seems the way to go but I think with your flying site the true DLG's are out of the question as they are just too delicate, however there are a cuppla foamies worth looking at.

Mountain Models Boomer at
http://www.mountainmodels.com/product_info.php?products_id=349
be sure to check out the video at:
http://www.stocker.rchomepage.com/Boomhivis2_0002.wmv

another one to look at is the Liftworx Swyft at:
http://liftworx.com/swyft/
and be sure to check the video which I think is the all time best RC video - just beeyootiful! [Wipes tear from eye] ;-)
http://liftworx.com/videoclips/swyftflight.html

Here I have to declare a commercial interest as I sell the Swyft, but that does not change my recommendation as I don't sell the Boomer.

Cheers
GG
www.rc-sailplane.com.au

[lincoln]

Lots of people have talked about electrics as if they are pretty heavy. With today's equipment, if you don't get greedy about power, you can keep a model as light as it was 15 years ago WITHOUT any electric motor. I have a Monarch hlg which weighs 11 oz with an electric motor and battery. It doesn't climb fast, but it weighs very close to what it did years ago as an hlg.

However, I recommend something larger for learning. I always try to get people to fly an Olympic 2. It may be large, but because it's light it doesn't take as much room as you think.

Another approach, if the budget is small, is to use a SHORT high start with an old hlg. If you have room to land you probably have room to launch. And there are lots of obsolete but relatively high performance hlgs gathering dust, I bet.

Someone said that dlg'ing a 3M might be dificult. Not so, if you have a bit of strength. Make up a rope which slips over the tow hook on one end and two of your fingers with the other, leaving other fingers to stabilize the wing tip. I would launch my Ava this way to 40 or 50 feet, but I'm a wimp. THere's a video out there on the net someplace of someone launching his Ava twice that high this way.

[jfrickmann]

To help make up your mind, consider what you want to do.

If you are satisfied flying with yourself and want some longer flights at higher altitudes, then electrics is a good option. The $200 or so you have to invest in a power system is a one time investment that can last for many years, except for the batteries that typically only last 2-3 years.

If you want to join an active group of flyers and do national and club contests, then get a DLG. Flying contests will also help you learn much more about thermaling than you can do on your own. As for the cost savings, many DLGs are pretty fragile and do not last forever, so over the long run they are probably not cheaper than small sport electrics. But once you learn hand catching it gets better ;) The Sidewinder mentioned above is a great plane - that's my first and only DLG so far.

[rob1978]

dlg's are not THAT fragile... lol.. after seeing the abuse i put my sidewider through, you'd be surprised it still flies so damn good!
i think it was mentioned above.. but what about polecat's lapdancer? you could put a peg in the wing and have either an electric OR a DLG... i bet if you removed the prop blades, you could still fly it in a DLG competition!!
here's a link.. http://www.polecataero.com/products/lapdancer/
you can truly have the best of both worlds with something like this!

[Rick Lindsey]

Wheee! I got spousal approval, and I'm going down the DLG route with a dragonfly (as soon as Paul's queue clears). I've already got electronics on a slow boat from china (hobbycity.com) and will pick up a battery locally :).

Just driving home from the DMV today looking at clouds in the blue sky and imagining my glider-to-be gave me a warm-fuzzy! I can't wait till I actually get to fly it. I don't think I'll be able to go to the beat-the-heat DLG competition in Tucson next month, but I know someone local with a dlg, and will get with him and learn who else flies DLG around here.

-Rick

[rob1978]

excellent choice rick!! from what i hear from paul about his dragonfly, you won't be disappointed! after you get her all set up, the first few times you fly her.. make it in very light wind.. you will see that a DLG is like a sportscar in the air.. very nimble!! as you get comfortable with her.. then you can start flying in a little more wind! i've flown my sidewinder in 16+ miles per hour here in NY!!! from what you were saying about your terrain, you may want to ping paul and ask him for a little extra fiberglass on the subfin of your rudder.. that's the part of the plane that will take most of the abuse... but also, VERY repairable!! in the past two years flying my sidewinder... i've had two mishaps.. once the rudder cracked due to tipstrike on a throw.. repaired in one hour... second was due to a failure of the nylon bolt (i overtightened it) in my wing.. on launch the whole wing ripped off the plane and smashed into my tailgroup... i was able to repair the wing and tailgroup and have her in the air again in just a few nights of work on the repair bench!! once you get to know your plane.. you'll LOVE it!!!!

[Double Pappa]

We'll get you squared away shortly.

[prodjx]

Rick, the greatest thing about a DLG is you can fly it anywhere, how about Barnes@Nobles parking lot after closing chasing and being chased by Kestral's that are going after bug's near the light's, or the parking lot on "A" Mountain when there's no wind or west wind, I think the possibilities are endless. Dave.

[jfrickmann]

Good choice! Have fun with it...

[EricSoar]

Electrics can be as light or lighter than winch launch models. Winch launch models need strong wings to handle the launch and a strong fuselage to handle the 130+ pound (60+ kg) pull on the hook. Electrics don't need this and the weight saved goes into the power system.

An ideal model for electric conversion has a built up wing and thin walled fibre glass fuselage. Otherwise in foam, the Easy Glider is a good option and then go up to the Cularis.