FS One Price Cut - blowout or blow-off?

[squidbait]

I see Horizon Hobby has slashed the price on FS One. Now you can get it with the controller for $99.99, and without for $79.99. This is a great deal for this sim.

So my question is - why? All I can think is that either a) they're desperate to get the sim out there and try to gain some market share, or b) it's a blowout to clear out existing inventory, since they're going to eventually drop it, leaving FS One users in the lurch, waiting for more Hangar Packs that will never come.

Anyone? :confused:

[IPFlyer]

I'd be PO'd if I'd just bought it at >$200. At $79 or less I might just pick up a copy...

[Carl Petersen]

FSOne has just released a rather large upgrade which takes it to version 1.1. Seems to be alive and at a great price.

[squidbait]

Thanks for pointing that out, Carl. That gives me some hope that this product isn't going to be orphaned off.

[Carl Petersen]

No prob, I've been playing with the upgrade on my iMac and for $99 this thing is a great deal.

[burnside]

...sounds like deparation to me

[Johndou]

I have to agree - it sounds like desperation.

This just after releasing a new upgrade could mean several things ... RealFlight released a major upgrade for G3.5 just weeks before they announced G4. So, like with RealFlight this could mean that they just want to "clean things up" before ... <?>

This drastic price reduction, coming on the heals of a 10% price increase (at Tower Hobbies) of their biggest competitor RealFlight, doesn't sound good ... at least that's my thought.

[flieslikeabeagle]

This drastic price reduction, coming on the heals of a 10% price increase (at Tower Hobbies) of their biggest competitor RealFlight, doesn't sound good
Interesting...I would say exactly the opposite - it's a very good thing for any potential purchasers.

By all accounts this continues to be an exceptionally good sim, and now it sells for half the price of the competition. It's pretty much a no-brainer to pick this one over the competition now.

There must be a lot of other folks who share this opinion, Horizon is sold out of the sim already - it shows as back-ordered on their website.

By the way, I suspect the cost to Horizon of the whole thing - cheap plastic controller, cardboard box, manual, and CD - is probably under $5 a copy. (Note that people were buying a similar cheap plastic sim controller bundled with the free FMS sim on a CD for $10 off Ebay...and the vendors were making a profit at that price).

So I have no doubt there is an enormous profit at the current $99 price, and a truly obscene profit at the $200 price point of the other sims. Heck, you can buy a copy of a far bigger and far more complex piece of software that took a heck of a lot more manpower to develop - a current version of Mac OS X - for not much more money.

-Flieslikeabeagle

[skirtz]

....

So I have no doubt there is an enormous profit at the current $99 price, and a truly obscene profit at the $200 price point of the other sims. Heck, you can buy a copy of a far bigger and far more complex piece of software that took a heck of a lot more manpower to develop - a current version of Mac OS X - for not much more money.

....

-Flieslikeabeagle

No offence, but comparing OS pricing to rc simulator price does not pass the laugh test.

Stefan

[flieslikeabeagle]

No offence, but comparing OS pricing to rc simulator price does not pass the laugh test.

Stefan
Let's hear more about your laugh test, then. An OS and an RC sim both consist of long strings of 1's and 0's, and the OS contains far more of them, interacting in far more complex ways. So what exactly is wrong with comparing the cost vs complexity of one long string of binary digits with another?

-Flieslikeabeagle

[skirtz]

Software pricing is tricky. Software has huge upfront cost and development process is prone to spectacular failures. The long term price of any software is ZERO. Usually, there is a short window of opportunity to recoup the initial investment and make a profit. The short term price is what market will bear at any specific time frame. OS'es that do not have monopoly (like Windows) are usually free or sell for small fee in supporting a platform (Mac OS) where the company revenue is generate by sales of hardware (Macs for Apple). Linux is complex piece of software and is free, so using OS pricing for justifying price of specialized software is not good idea.

Stefan

[flieslikeabeagle]

Sure thing - and the more complex the software, the more expensive the development, and the higher the chances of those spectacular failures. An OS is considerably more complex than a sim - and therefore a sim should be far cheaper than an OS. The larger sales numbers for an OS will have an effect, sure, but I don't think they will change the fundamental conclusion that $200 represents an enormous profit margin on a flight sim, and $100 undoubtedly still represents an enormous profit margin.

As FMS and CRRCSIM both demonstrate, it's not unusual for a couple of talented college students be able to develop a good sim. FMS isn't very realistic, sure, but CRRCSIM has excellent physics; while its primary developers are now researchers, IIRC they started writing it when they were students.

-Flieslikeabeagle

[Johndou]

The price comparison of an OS with hundreds of thousands of sales to an RC sim with a few thousand sales just isn't a fair comparison. The development costs may be similar. But, the OS can be sold for considerably less because there will be considerably more copies of it sold - hence a much lower selling price.

I don't think that FSOne dropped their price in half simply because they didn't need to make as much profit as they were before. If that were the case what does that say about how they treated all of the customers who bought it at the original price? Was FSOne just ripping them off for as much money as they could get for their product and now suddenly "feel bad" about it?

And what does that say about other sim producers like RealFlight? Is RealFlight just ripping it's customers off - or adding to the corporate wages so that people like Jim Bourke can buy new airplanes? :D

Or, is the $200 price tag actually helping to pay the development costs of future advancements? (which could mean that FSOne isn't planning any future advancements)

FSOne is in trouble and has dropped it's price to help boost sales. If they keep their price down long enough it could effect the sales of other sims and we might see a drop across the board from all of the sim producers. Wouldn't that be nice?!

[bluesky123]

...the fundamental conclusion that $200 represents an enormous profit margin on a flight sim, and $100 undoubtedly still represents an enormous profit margin.
Let's do some math, shall we?
InertiaSoft, which developed FS One, was founded 5 years ago and now employs 17 people:
http://www.inertiasoft.com/corporate_fsone_dev_team.html
Let's assume that the salary range is $50k...100k, which is probably a low estimate for experienced programmers (I'd guess that in many states, e.g. CA or MA, we would have to double these numbers). With a median salary of $75k, 100% overhead (being a US company, InertiaSoft has to pay taxes and provide health insurance), and 5 year development span typical for project of this size, we end up with the cost of roughly $6M. Sounds very reasonable to me. On top of that, HorizonHobby has probably spent tons of cash for advertisement campaign: all those full page ads in all RC magazines and demo kiosks in hobby stores all across the country must had cost them several more millions.

The cost of the simulator package, including the interface or controller, CD, and retail packaging is no less than $20, probably more than that.

Now, let's take into account profit margin, which HorizonHobby would like to have selling this product. Even if it's only, say, 20%, Horizon should sell more than 40 thousands packages of FS One at $200 a piece just to cover the development cost! I doubt that they are anywhere near this sales number...

Now, about the comparison of FS One with FMS and ClearView.
FMS is a hobby project, that's why it's free. If its developers had opened its source code, it might have had a chance to develop into a more or less serious contender. Right now, it's flight model is nowhere near being accurate.
ClearView, as far as I know, has been developed by one person over the span of many years--I remember trying its first versions many (5 or even 8?) years ago. Because of this, the development cost was much lower.
While helies are pretty good in ClearView (and quite average in FS One), the situation with fixed wing planes is just the opposite--FS One offers, IMO, the most accurate modeling of fixed wing aerodynamics among all current RC simulators, while ClearView leaves much to be desired in this area.

Just my $.02,
Boris

[skirtz]

Hehehe.... Boris, you have not flown the latest ClearView planes... The plane flight model is on its fifth generation and is quite good. You must try it...

On the prices, they have a long way to go... DOWN. Given the quality of ClearView and some other free simulators out there, $200 and even $100 is unsustainable price point. Out of the 5 sims in the $200 range, it seems only 2 are activelly updated and the rest are showing signs of distress and are sold at discount with glim hope for any future development.

Stefan

[bluesky123]

Hehehe.... Boris, you have not flown the latest ClearView planes... The plane flight model is on its fifth generation and is quite good. You must try it...
Stefan,

I am sorry, I was indeed referring to a year old version. Knowing how often you update your sim, I wouldn't be surprised if it's much better now than it was a year ago. I'll certainly upgrade my ClearView installation to the latest version to try planes.
:)

Boris

[flieslikeabeagle]

No comment on the price estimate - let's just say my opinion is different from yours. No need to debate this further, you have your estimate and I have mine.

FMS is a hobby project, that's why it's free. If its developers had opened its source code, it might have had a chance to develop into a more or less serious contender. Right now, it's flight model is nowhere near being accurate.

I agree with you that it is a pity the FMS developers chose to keep it closed-source, effectively guaranteeing it would stagnate as soon as they (two people, IIRC) got bored with working on it. I also agree the flight physics is marginal, though it was good enough to allow me to learn to fly RC successfully back in 2004 - the virtual T-hawk in FMS had the same tip-stall during tight slow turns as the real thing, and thanks to hours of practice in FMS, I never stalled the T-hawk in the real world. In fact I sold it - still in mint condition - a year after learning to fly with it.

I don't think FMS is free because it's a hobby project - clearly this was an ethical point for the developers, since they make it quite clear that FMS can only be redistributed at zero cost.

I've heard good things about the flight physics in FS-One, and it doesn't come as a big surprise knowing that Michael Selig had a hand in creating it.

By the way, have you tried CRRCSIM? It's free (zero cost), Free (open-source), and the flight physics was developed by no less an authority on low Reynolds number flight than Prof. Mark Drela himself. I find the flight physics very realistic for traditional flight. I don't fly 3D and cannot comment on post-stall simulation accuracy in CRRCSIM.

What the free CRRCSIM is missing compared to the $200 commercial sims is mainly flashy graphics, realistic collisions, a large selection of models and flying fields, and built-in tutorials and lessons.

Personally, I couldn't care less about the accuracy of simulated collisions - I use the sims to improve my flying, not my crashing. So it comes down to whether you think it is worth paying $200 (or, after the FS-One price drop, $100) to get better graphics, more virtual models and flying sites, and built-in tutorials and lessons. Only you and your wallet can make that decision.

-Flieslikeabeagle

[bluesky123]

I don't think FMS is free because it's a hobby project - clearly this was an ethical point for the developers, since they make it quite clear that FMS can only be redistributed at zero cost.
Little did they know that, several years later, Chinese would start selling FMS as "ESky simulator"...
:(

[burnside]

...maybe fsone heard about Phoenix V2
http://www.phoenix-sim.com/news.htm

[flieslikeabeagle]

Little did they know that, several years later, Chinese would start selling FMS as "ESky simulator"...
:(
If you look closely, you may find text saying something like "Thunder Wonder RC controller with included free FMS flight simulator" - in other words, they're charging for the controller (which they're allowed to) and the FMS CD is supposedly thrown in for free. That meets the letter of the requirement laid down by the FMS developers.

Some years ago someone was selling, IIRC, a CD containing lots of FMS virtual models (all downloaded for free from the 'Net, no doubt). The package also included a CD containing FMS...and text stating that you were being charged for the CD with the models, and the FMS CD was included at no charge. :)

In similar but more humorous vein, some years ago Microsoft had a legal requirement that some flavours of Windows 98 could only be sold along with PC hardware - even though it might be a fresh, unopened, unused copy. MS intended these CD's to be sold along with a new PC with the same OS installed - but several Ebay vendors used to sell the CD's, getting around the legal requirement simply by including in the package a stick of RAM, usually obsolete or defunct. After all, a stick of RAM is indeed PC hardware!

-Flieslikeabeagle

[finchkid24]

I was always up in the air about a flight sim. Always wanted to have one, never wanted to buy when. And when I did have some extra funds laying around...I always had a hard time choosing which one. Now I know which to buy. I saw this price cut a few days ago and will be purchasing VERY soon. Can't wait to get my hands on a copy.

[IPFlyer]

Yeah, for about $85 bucks it is a decent deal. http://www.greathobbies.com/productinfo/?prod_id=HANS3000

[alex.guzun]

Anyone knows how to model new plane for FS One?

[squidbait]

Anyone knows how to model new plane for FS One?

You can't.... yet. Or maybe ever. Depends on whether there's actually going to be further development of FS One, or they're going to put it out to pasture.

If they do blow it off, I do hope they make the program open-source, or at least leave us with some development tools so we can make our own planes.

[alex.guzun]

I wanted to buy fsone, but there is no planes i'm interested in. Then i don't need it.
Need to find somethink cool with ability of importing custom model.

[Looooeeee!]

I think that some folks here are underestimating FMS's capabilities.

Or as Frank (treehugger) from RC-Sim.de says "it's the most under appreciated sim going.."

IIRC Flying Model Sim's vers. 2.85 comes with the ability to custom text edit the polars in the airfoil files, I've been custom building airfoils for my models for 3 years now, you can make these polar moments as simple or as complex as you want. You also can have as many wings as you desire, the PAR file includes the proper XYZ co-ordinates for all the flight surfaces.

Now it doesn't have complex chaotic flow modeling for stall or near stall effects, little in the way of prop blast modeling, but when a model's airfoil is done well, you can get spins, snap rolls and energy bleed when pulling high angles of attack.

For beginner model flight it really doesn't need to be much fancier.

Of course I'm now 3D modeling for Targetware, OpenGL has a few advantages from the basic DirectX rendering FMS uses.

[Bob O]

Another bonus with the FS-One is that Spektrum offers a wireless module (http://www.spektrumrc.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=SPM1800) that allows you to use your actual Spektrum transmitter with the simulator. I just bought the FS-One at $99 and free shipping from eBay, and although the USB controller works, it feels very cheap in your hands and transfers that cheap feel to the model, IMO.

I have yet to buy the Spektrum module, but it seems quite the endorsement for FS-One that Spektrum makes this to work with their product.

[alex.guzun]

sure
but do you have your model within fsone? or just flying with something? (almost a game)
i have a feeling that almost everyone need to have 3d model of the one you have at home, and not buying planes based on what you could train with.

Any info about addons they making (if any)

[Bob O]

No, the models I fly aren't in there. One is close though, the 3D model feels like my YaK. And the other sport fliers fill the gap between it and my other plane. My point was that you can use the radio you actually fly with for the simulater rather than the cheap one that comes with it. I have a DX-7.

F-27B Stryker
HL YaK-55

[alex.guzun]

i give it a try
will buy fsone without transmitter and my dx6i

[pburt1975]

I have Vista on my home PC. Does FS-one work on Vista? Is there a 'better' option?

[mtimothy]

I have Vista on my home PC. Does FS-one work on Vista? Is there a 'better' option?

Yes, FS One does work with Windows Vista. You do need to make a few setting changes. Please see the attached link:

http://www.fsone.com/Support/tm.aspx?m=143&mpage=1&key=vista

[alex.guzun]

mtimothy,
any clue of planes addons?

[Bob O]

sure
but do you have your model within fsone? SNIP
I just went through all the models in FS One and my Stryker IS in there! And it feels JUST like the real thing, which makes FS One that much better!

[alex.guzun]

i wish my apprentice will be there :)

[pval3]

I have greatly enjoyed the banter!

I have been a die hard user of FWS since it first came out - - 6 years ago - - I think... I have more cd's with models burned on them that I can count and my flying buddy who is new to the hobby is now loving all of the options he has as I was more than willing to share the wealth of hobby fun so he can learn as much as I did.

Before that I use to have an old Dave Brown sim when it first came available some thirty years ago (old vanilla box 8086).

I just broke down a few months ago after looking at rf4, fsone, APFD, clearview and Reflex against the FMS and opted for APFD for the increadible flight and ground physics plus the bevy of aircraft, a veritable open list of airplanes that have been built for it aftermarket and by the community at large.

The most compelling reason for my choice- - the thing runs on a fraction of the resources of any of the newer sims with the same physics and pretty much the same quality of graphics.

I have even been able to run it on my laptop (with an intel built in video card) and pipe it out to the TV in my hotel rooms on the road ....
There was no way I was willing to spend another 250 on a new video card just to be able to get a sim to start as was the case with RF4 :eek:

FSone is great but it is no APFD as it is not supported by the community like APFD.

As far as I have seen on the forums, there is no ready list of aircraft "builds" available. Granted - it is a relatively new product, the reality is that if you want the thing to pop, you need a vast community of folks willing to build airplanes and scenery and you need it fast to compete. The price drop makes sense to accomplish this.

Unfortunately, I can not justify the purchase of another sim after dropping 200 bucks on my APFD, but even at that price, APFD would still be my choice for the same reasons.

It is up to every end user and forum member to step up to the plate and start asking Horizon for more models and more tools to create content, making the process easier for the neophyte.

Until this happens, FSone will continue to take a back seat to RF4 and APFD regardless of price.

That is my two cents :D

[356Jim]

No offence, but comparing OS pricing to rc simulator price does not pass the laugh test.

Stefan


There's no laughing when one compares the two in terms of numbers of copies sold, as well as comparable quantity. OS's have far greater quantity AND cost, compared to the fairly low quantity of RC sims.

[Berzert]

it seems quite the endorsement for FS-One that Spektrum makes this to work with their product

I believe it's because both companies (Hangar 9 & Spektrum) are under the same parent company (Horizon Hobby).