what is the most recent autopilot?

[zaguruinzasky]

I'm not aware of what's in the market at the moment so here's my request, I want a return to launch device with airspeed and altitude control, and if the price is within my budget, a waypoints navigation. Everything for a high wing rudder only airplane.

ANy advise very appreciated

Thanks

(budget $ 700 / $ 800).

[workshop]

I think everybody is waiting for Dean Goedde's AttoPilot. :cool:

No idea on when or how much as it appears he wants to do everything right and is doing just that. I'm OK with the wait. :)

[zaguruinzasky]

ah thanks for the info, got link please? (if any)
Thanks!

[tychoc]

I've been looking at these:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=734456
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=874476
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=762590
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=865832

-tychoc

[dmgoedde]

Hello, I am the developer of the AttoPilot, and leader of the Beta testing team, which is comprised of 17 people.

3rd last page of the 60 page thread that was started in Fall '07:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=734456&page=58

Example of navigation precision in the holding pattern:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1948186

Most recent hardware revision for the Beta testing:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1904705



Dean Goedde

[zaguruinzasky]

Hello, I am the developer of the AttoPilot, and leader of the Beta testing team, which is comprised of 17 people.

3rd last page of the 60 page thread that was started in Fall '07:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=734456&page=58

Example of navigation precision in the holding pattern:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1948186

Most recent hardware revision for the Beta testing:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1904705



Dean Goedde
Hi Dean, thanks for the info, when will this be for sale? and what will be the price range?
Thanks

[pthompson24]

Hi Dean, thanks for the info, when will this be for sale? and what will be the price range?
Thanks

Ah Grasshopper!

Those are the questions we have wondered throughout the ages!

If only master Dean would come forth with the answers we will forever be in tune with our inner selves and at the same time be able to reach out to the great beyond.

:)

Student of the Zen of Auto pilots
Paul T.

[zaguruinzasky]

Dean, I have to produce videos within 2 months.. is it realistic or should I look for some other autopilot?
Thankss

[dmgoedde]

Dean, I have to produce videos within 2 months.. is it realistic or should I look for some other autopilot?
ThankssThis is completely realistic.

[tychoc]

This is completely realistic.

Ah, we must be close! Now if we only could get an indication of the price for the two models :D

-tychoc

[zaguruinzasky]

great, please pm me as soon as something is available.. thanks!

[wavess]

Add me to that pm too, I´m following your developments with special interest.

Keep up that nice work

[hoysome]

im also waiting for the finished product:) with all the trimmings. I actually read every single page of your beta details post, and cant wait to get my hands on one

[mboland]

You can add me to the list of "I want one too"

[air]

Zaguruinzasky, I would highly recommend going for the the U-Nav Nav-R Alt-E and throttle airspeed control for your application. If airspeed is not absolutely crucial I would recommend just alt-t and nav-r, it should get the job done fine for your type of airframe.
While Attopilot may one day be a great autopilot for the job, the fact is that it is not yet available and there is no set release date. Given that you are in Europe like myself, there will be a minimum delay of about 6 weeks for an ITAR license for you to have an autopilot shipped from the US.
If Dean's 2 month prediction is accurate then he is either a) Going to be ready to ship Attopilots in 2 weeks from the US or b) had arranged a manufacturer outside the US to provide Attopilots to international customers.
I think that it is not fair for Dean to interject on threads like these offering his product as a potential solution until he has at the very least a concrete release date.


I myself wasted a lot of time waiting for the Attopilot release before purchasing a UNAV3500FW - a fully tested product which is on the market.
Dean told me in late September 2007 that Attopilot would be available in 2 months.

The picopilot should do fine for you, it's a great product with a good track record. So basically if you want the job done, order a product that is on the market.

[zaguruinzasky]

Thanks Air for your considerations,
I was reading in wikipedia about ITAR, it says :

"ITAR regulations dictate that information and material pertaining to defense and military related technologies may only be shared with US Persons unless approval from the Department of State is received or a special exemption is used"

so does the autopilot enter in this category of product?

Thanks

[air]

Yes, regulations have tightened up in the last few years in the US. Basically you have to be granted what amounts to a weapons export license in order to buy an autopilot from the US. It's just bureaucracy really but personally I have signed up to the terms of the license and take compliance with it's terms very seriously. You have to provide details of how you will provide security for the autopilot, the area of it's use, details on the target airframe and keep a daily log of it's location amongst other things.

[zaguruinzasky]

all this for any autopilot I buy or only for those from USA?

[air]

Well it applies in the USA now, other countries may have their own rules but I'm not aware of any issues with buying from suppliers in the EU for example.

[Connexxion]

You'll have to find a hobby autopilot in europe in the first place.

The autopilots I could find in europe were pro-versions with pro-prices ;-)

The only one I know of is a very simple one made by a spanish guy(Eladiomf?),but I couldn't find enough possitive arguments to buy it.

I have some links of european manufacturers of autopilots,but couldn't find any prices.

http://alai.h3m.com/~s0350672/catalogo/index.php?cPath=43_51&osCsid=412410174c18d60cb2918741b23731a7

http://www.alicom.pl/autopilot/index2.php?go=autopilots

http://www.a2tech.eu/Unmanned-Systems001.html

http://www.polyvionics.com/page2.html

http://www.kanardia.eu/en/senap.html

http://www.wecontrol.ch/

http://www.ruav.ru/

[dmgoedde]

I think that it is not fair for Dean to interject on threads like these offering his product as a potential solution until he has at the very least a concrete release date...Dean told me in late September 2007 that Attopilot would be available in 2 months.Point taken! Back in Sept 2007 I had more ambition than a fully robust solution. I was very naive, based on my current viewpoint. Back then I had no idea of about 20 lessons I was slated to learn over the next 6 months. The issues back then were around making the system 1) very robust, 2) universally applicable. All of those technical issues are now gone in my current state of the art... stuff I don't show here on RCGroups, and stuff that has outstripped what even the Beta testers are flying with. Right now the Atto I fly is a no-nonsense ultra robust and ultra capable system. There are no technical hurdles left to get it to market... just a few logistic ones around production. All the big component orders are placed, and I have a US company (locally in fact) chosen for the SMD assembly on state of the art pick and place machines. I have a distributor, I am being incorporated right now. USA sales are the easy part, and overseas will be more complicated due to US federal law.

Dean

[air]

Hi Dean,
Yes, I dont doubt that you were acting in good faith when you made those predictions and I know only too well how difficult it can be to predict the completion of a large software project. I was just making the point that zagu would be better off with a picopilot especially given the fact that he is in Europe like myself.
I have no doubt that Atto will be revolutionary when released and I stand my my original expression of interest in purchasing one!

[dmgoedde]

Hi Dean,
Yes, I dont doubt that you were acting in good faith when you made those predictions and I know only too well how difficult it can be to predict the completion of a large software project. I was just making the point that zagu would be better off with a picopilot especially given the fact that he is in Europe like myself.
I have no doubt that Atto will be revolutionary when released and I stand my my original expression of interest in purchasing one!You are very kind, and level-headed. Thank you!

[dalbert02]

In Dean's defense, some of the delay is that copious amounts of data are needed from the beta testing group. Some beta testers have not been able to submit sufficient data because of personal schedules and airframe failures. Dean could have sold the AttoPilot months ago, but then the end users would have been the true beta testers similar to microsoft users. Also, as beta testing continues, new requirements are created and a long list of "would like to haves" is created. Obviously not all the bells and whistles can be added, but some of the suggestions are really good so it makes sense to add them. So, part of the delay is my fault and for this I apologize.
-dave

[zaguruinzasky]

well, when the toy is for sale give me a call ;-)

[zaguruinzasky]

This is completely realistic.
remember my request? 3 months are gone instead or 2. Is it ready?
Thanks

[Connexxion]

Zaguruinzasky,

I don't think it makes any sense to wait for the Attopilot as we Europeans will need a license to obtain one.

I believe this license can be compared to a weapons export license.

Unless Dean is gonna have an European distributor,only thing we Europeans can do is read about the Attopilot and it's US-based flights :(

[zaguruinzasky]

and you have any product in mind?
Thanks

[Connexxion]

At this moment?Not really.

Maybe you could go the Micropilot route,but don't know if they have an export restriction like the US-based manufacturers.

Last resort could be a second hand AP from Ebay or such.

[icebear]

It is actually possible to get a license for Europe for autopilots from the US.

/Icebear

[robe_uk]

and you have any product in mind?
Thanks

'air' advised you 2 months ago about picopilot, if you had went for this you would be 2 months down the line for your project. What you have to ask yourself is how great is your need and what time line you have to work with.

Despite all the excitement of AttoPilot the reality is that its not available yet, nor does there appear to be a firm release date, only a couple of days ago Dean metioned 'Working on a couple "tics" in the new navigation method' so playing devil's advocate will it be another 2 months before release?

So that said, and I have no interests with either or any, if you need one buy now. If you want to or can wait the AttoPilot does look good.

Personaly I would go with a complete product as open source stuff seems to take more setting up to get going

[zaguruinzasky]

I know about Attopilot, but if it's not available... I told him to advise me when something is avaiable. I'm flying within the max range so I can do my work in any case, but as soon as I can be safer with a new AP I'll do it. Now looks like there is nothing interesting to buy at reasonable prices.

[dmgoedde]

I know about Attopilot, but if it's not available... I told him to advise me when something is avaiable. I'm flying within the max range so I can do my work in any case, but as soon as I can be safer with a new AP I'll do it. Now looks like there is nothing interesting to buy at reasonable prices.I have actually sold several pre-release units.. but that just makes more headache for right now. The "tics" I mentioned some days ago are now fully dead and PCBs being stuffed early next week on the pick and place... just thought you might like to know a bit of detail so this doesn't seem like an eternity.

Also, I just got back from using the "Assisted RC" mode, which allows even a 5 year old to handle a flying wing... it is like FMA CoPilot, but with added barometric and GPS heading bias corrections. Truly 100% self trimming at all times, and hold altitude indefinately while you keep roll angle cranked over to 60 degrees in tight circuits around the field. It is perfect for long range RC flight, because the system hold altitude unless you deflect the elevator stick for "up" or "down". Turning you don't have to think about doing "up" elevator as this is 100% automatice with built-in gain scheduling as a function of Cosine(Roll Angle).

[zaguruinzasky]

dmgoedde as I said be4, when you sell it I think about it, it's interesting for me, just keep me updated.
Thanks

[bmw330i]

Thanks Air for your considerations,
I was reading in wikipedia about ITAR, it says :

"ITAR regulations dictate that information and material pertaining to defense and military related technologies may only be shared with US Persons unless approval from the Department of State is received or a special exemption is used"

so does the autopilot enter in this category of product?

Thanks

I'm sure there are those with a good understanding (i.e. work with Govt agencies on this). When I tried to research this I found two interesting things:
1. If you don't export software with the hardware (i.e. you're just selling only the hardware) as long as the hardware is not itself listed as not exportable it is not covered by the regulations
2. Model Aircraft are not regulated by the regulations.

A Model Aircraft autopilot for use by a hobbyist without software provided is legal to export to most nations...true or not? Pls cite the regulations with your responses (i.e. don't just say it's not and don't cite the regulation).

Anyone have experience with this and can shed light?

[Mark Hanson]

2. Model Aircraft are not regulated by the regulations.

A Model Aircraft autopilot for use by a hobbyist without software provided is legal to export to most nations...true or not? Pls cite the regulations with your responses (i.e. don't just say it's not and don't cite the regulation).

Anyone have experience with this and can shed light?

UAV components intended for military use are regulated by ITAR (US State dept.) UAV components intented for non-military use are regulated by the Export Administration Regulations ( EAR - US Commerce Department).

Non-military UAV components are classified by the EAR, section 9A012.

9A012 defines a UAV as "having autonomous flight control, (e.g. autopilot)"
OR
"capability of controlled flight beyond visual range (e.g. TV system)"'

That means that when you install an autopilot or TV system on your model airplane is becomes a UAV ! At that point you are subject to export regulations for UAVs and their components.

"Controlled" hardware and software that are posted on forums and websites could be a violation of export regulations. "Export by electronic means" can be just as much a violation as physically shipping items out of the US.

[small_rcer]

Mark;

I have just read the 9A012 that you have referenced, the version I have is revised to date 14 Oct 2008 or earlier this week.

There is a note at the end of the section just before the start of 9A018 where they say

Note: 9A012 does not control model aircraft.

How have the rules been interpreted, with your products or any product, when a product is obviously intended for model airplanes, by virtue of their standard R/C servo interface connectors?

I am thinking of the Papparazzi type hardware and such where, without the program, it is just a nice bit of hardware. When the software from various points around the world, or even a main repository such as SourceForge which may be in the US, is freely available, does that make buying boards that support this software a potential offense for the exporter?



Thanks

[bmw330i]

Mark;

I have just read the 9A012 that you have referenced, the version I have is revised to date 14 Oct 2008 or earlier this week.

There is a note at the end of the section just before the start of 9A018 where they say

Note: 9A012 does not control model aircraft.
.
.
.


Exactly, I saw that also, it is wise to exclude a model airplane so I was glad to see that. Can't get more simple and to the point than that statement. Not sure why Mark failed to mention that.

On the topic of Paparazzi the software is open source and available to anyone to download independent of the hardware (as was mentioned). So, it is possible for someone to buy the hardware, then download and use the software on their own.

Paparazzi it's all given to you, all the source code, all the plans how to make it yourself, examples of projects used and look at their track record of Wins an top 3 finishes in UAV competitions. Sky is the limit. And you can either build it yourself or buy it already assembled. That's what makes Paparazzi so attractive to me and why I chose it. I'm not saying it's easy or ready to go out of the box. Just it's up to you how far you go the hardware is up to it.

Hopefully soon we'll see a Flying Fox or one of the other small autopilots flying in those same competitions as I think that's a great way to test them on an equal playing field.

[Mark Hanson]

Exactly, I saw that also, it is wise to exclude a model airplane so I was glad to see that. Can't get more simple and to the point than that statement. Not sure why Mark failed to mention that.




you'd better read 9A012.a again.... it sets the definition of a UAV

basically it says that when you install (or intend to install) an autopilot (or TV system) on your model airplane it is then defined as a UAV and subject to export regulations.

OR

... it's not a "model airplane" if it has an autopilot in it

[bmw330i]

you'd better read 9A012.a again.... it defines what a UAV is for these regulations.

basically it says that when you install (or intend to install) an autopilot (or TV system) on your model airplane it is then defined as a UAV and subject to these export regulations.

OR ... it's not a "model airplane" if it has an autopilot in it

Don't take offense but I wasn't asking for "basically". I couldn't go to a judge and say "basically" this is how I see it...good advice. I will read it again.

[airmcn_3]

you'd better read 9A012.a again.... it sets the definition of a UAV

basically it says that when you install (or intend to install) an autopilot (or TV system) on your model airplane it is then defined as a UAV and subject to export regulations.

OR

... it's not a "model airplane" if it has an autopilot in it


If its not a model airplane then what would it be? Technically speaking all RC airplanes are UAV's considering you do not sit in them. Its a shame they have put such ridiculous restrictions on our hobby, give us a break, we buy a 300$ video system so we can have the possibility of seeing things within a couple mile radius and all the sudden your fun RC airplane is restricted.

Do the export rules apply when you are going to a competition over seas?

[small_rcer]

Thanks Mark.

Mark has the most experience of all of us in this. He is absolutely correct. After re-reading it several times and printing it out to make sure the contexts were correct, I can now understand that it is classed as a UAV, if these conditions are met. PERIOD. Then if it is a UAV, the following equipment for it, comes under the regulations.

It appears the note saying that it does not control model airplanes, is not part of the regulations. It appears to be just a clarification about model planes that don't meet the criteria of section 9A012.a. Meet section 'a' and you appear to be, by definition, no longer a model plane.

The scary realization is, if you put a video camera on an R/C plane and relay that picture to the ground to facilitate control, the aircraft is by legal definition, under these particular regulations, a "UAV". As such it is then covered by export regulations. Now if you are going to use it in the US and not export it, then these regulations are moot.

Similarly all US produced items intended to facilitate a model becoming a 'UAV' come under those controls. Ironic that one of the most widely available, most sophisticated, most clearly documented, and the inspiration for many, is the open source Papparazzi project. It is, in many ways, more capable than some of the 'commercial' units yet is available for low cost to anyone with access to the Internet.

edit-
To clarify these are EXPORT controls. They apply only if you are exporting. These rules do not apply for 'domestic' US use. Try to send them outside the US to a select list of countries and perfect strangers wearing uniforms, may come to vist you. 8-)) /edit

[airmcn_3]

Mark has the most experience of all of us in this. He is absolutely correct. On re-reading it several times and printing it out to make sure the contexts were correct, you can see that it is a UAV, if these conditions are met. PERIOD. Then if it is a UAV, the following equipment for it, comes under the regulations.

It appears the note saying that it does not control model airplanes, is not part of the regulations. It appears to be just a clarification about model planes that don't meet the criteria of section 9A012.a. Meet section 'a' and you appear to be, by definition, no longer a model plane.

The scary realization is, if you put a video camera on an R/C plane and relay that picture to the ground to facilitate control, the aircraft is by legal definition, under these particular regulations, a "UAV". As such it is then covered by export regulations. Now if you are going to use it in the US and not export it, then these regulations are moot.

Similarly all US produced items intended to facilitate a model becoming a 'UAV' come under those controls. Ironic that one of the most widely available, most sophisticated, most clearly documented, and the inspiration for many, is the open source Papparazzi project. It is, in many ways, more capable than some of the 'commercial' units yet is available for low cost to anyone with access to the Internet.


I was not saying Mark was wrong, I was just making a statement, sorry if it came across the wrong way.

I have no problem with rules. I live in the US so its not that big of a deal to me.

Chris

[bmw330i]

Mark, small_racer, thank you. It's not an easy document to read for sure.
The Paparazzi Project is quite interesting. The hardware is nothing to write home about....the software behind it is...fantastic. Not literally the code but the theory in place behind it.

[Jappa_Indy]

Mark, small_racer, thank you. It's not an easy document to read for sure.
The Paparazzi Project is quite interesting. The hardware is nothing to write home about....the software behind it is...fantastic. Not literally the code but the theory in place behind it.

Yes, the Paparazzi project would be the way to go, at least its available, without all the hoopla around it, and it can be almost free if you want to build it all yourself. The Attopilot is nice hovever the whole project is disqusting.

The Atto should be offered to all the people in its main thread at cost as it seems they helped develop a lot of it with suggestions etc. even if it was indirectly. I have seen this many times where someone comes into the forums with a project planning to make money from, people start throwing in ideas and they say "Yes, we are planning that" as if it was their idea already and nonschalantly add these ideas into the project with no credit to anyone but themselves. Then, trying to make money off the guys who essentially developed the thing. This is present with the Atto project too if you follow the thread carefully you can see it. One reason why I will not support such a project by buying there products.

[icebear]

If a product is based on peoples wishes, why would it be a bad idea if the company/person who actually makes that product would make money in the end?

It is a looooong way from saying "I want SD card logging of X parameters" to actually writing the software, designing the hardware to make it happen...

I have been providing suggestion for specifications etc for the Atto, but I can't say that would entitle me to a product "at cost" considering how much work has gone into the whole project - mostly from Deans side.

/Icebear

[pthompson24]

Yes, the Paparazzi project would be the way to go, at least its available, without all the hoopla around it, and it can be almost free if you want to build it all yourself. The Attopilot is nice hovever the whole project is disqusting.

The Atto should be offered to all the people in its main thread at cost as it seems they helped develop a lot of it with suggestions etc. even if it was indirectly. I have seen this many times where someone comes into the forums with a project planning to make money from, people start throwing in ideas and they say "Yes, we are planning that" as if it was their idea already and nonschalantly add these ideas into the project with no credit to anyone but themselves. Then, trying to make money off the guys who essentially developed the thing. This is present with the Atto project too if you follow the thread carefully you can see it. One reason why I will not support such a project by buying there products.

I think your argument is complete rubbish. Dean is an angel answering our prayers. Well, maybe that a bit much but my point is Dean is fulfilling the wish list of many a hobbyist that would have no chance of building something like the Atto if their lives depended on it. I consider it an honor to have the opportunity to provide a small bit of input during the development of this device. All I had to do it dream it an he's making it a reality. Not too shabby.
-Paul

[Jappa_Indy]

I think your argument is complete rubbish. Dean is an angel answering our prayers. Well, maybe that a bit much but my point is Dean is fulfilling the wish list of many a hobbyist that would have no chance of building something like the Atto if their lives depended on it. I consider it an honor to have the opportunity to provide a small bit of input during the development of this device. All I had to do it dream it an he's making it a reality. Not too shabby.
-Paul

You guys seem to have partially misunderstood me. What I mean is someone should receive credit for their input if its put to use. People rarely get credit for anything when a "higher up" is involved. I dont think its too much to ask, even though you feel he is fulfilling a dream so to speak, giving someone who's idea/s were put to use the option to purchase the device at cost.

I bet at your place of work, if you gave the management an idea for something they put to use, you would expect credit in some form or another. For some things a simple "Thank You" is sufficient, however when the "entity" is making money off of something "you" had a part in, it would only be fair to offer them more. I personally see someone who would not do this as unethical and will not sign their claim to fame.

Im not saying Dean is like that, but it seems that way as all I see is Dean this Dean that when its obvious Dean did not do some of this and some of that. You even gave him credit above for something it seems you did. Not even giving yourself credit is bad, at least give yourself credit and be proud you did what you did. Dont get me wrong, Dean deserves credit, probaly most of it, but not all.

[pthompson24]

Jappa,

I just feel that ideas and talk are cheap. It's action and follow though that are difficult and worth the credit. If I could make a living sitting around and dreaming and talking all day I would. :)

Of all the great inventions around us I bet that most of them have been thought of by 1000's of people. It's the people that took those ideas and brought them to reality that gain the reward and they deserve it in my humble opinion.

If I gave my boss the idea of Big bonuses for all employees and he made it happen he could take all the credit as far as I'm concerned. I still get the big bonus. :)

[Gary Mortimer]

I think Dean left his job, cashed in his savings and stuck his neck on the block.

His one fault might be to make sure his product is bullet proof before release.

Not a fault I guess. When all is said and done.

The beta testers are known and acknowledged, I'm sure very soon lots of stories of work being undertaken and the input they have had will be known.

Right now I guess Dean and his team are making sure a top notch product comes to market at a reasonable cost.

Later on they can write the how we did it story, some of which we have read in the threads.

Seems like there has been pretty good disclosure so far from Dean. I fully expect the after sales service to be on the level as well.

ITAR rules are one thing but world economic conditions are making anything that comes out of the USA more expensive by the day, almost the minute!!

Also, if he made it all or not, this product will affect pricing structures from other companies when it finally does land. It should also be spurring on development. All good news for anyone in the market for new toys!

Don't forget the developments over at DIYdrones either in the list.

[clolson]

Jappa,

I just feel that ideas and talk are cheap. It's action and follow though that are difficult and worth the credit. If I could make a living sitting around and dreaming and talking all day I would. :)

Of all the great inventions around us I bet that most of them have been thought of my 1000's of people. It's the people that took those ideas and brought them to reality that gain the reward and they deserve it in my humble opinion.

If I gave my boss the idea of Big bonuses for all employees and he made it happen he could take all the credit as far as I'm concerned. I still get the big bonus. :)

I also feel strongly that small business owners like Dean do much more than just being a little extra motivate or a little extra smart to bring a good idea to reality. They often endure a huge amount of risk, put themselves under a tremendous work load; success or failure is completely on their own shoulders and even if they do everything right, many ventures fail. They often sacrifice social life, beer drinking, family, (not necessarily in that order), retirement savings, possibly taking out loans, maybe quitting their day job, mortgage their house, etc. All to realize their dream and do something really cool and hopefully reap some reward in the end.

So if Dean and others like him ultimately find great success (and I sincerely hope they do) it didn't happen because they won the lottery or they got lucky or whatever, it's because they took much bigger risks than the rest of the herd, they often work much, much harder and longer, and put forth much greater sacrifice.

So I'll leave my point at that ... I don't want to start sounding too political here! :-)

Curt.

[patrickegan]

I think Dean left his job, cashed in his savings and stuck his neck on the block..

Ay carumba! :eek:
When he started this project I thought it was about it being cheap and sharing the love?!? :confused: I don’t know if that was such a good move in a climate where we could be in for a big wing clipping. :(

[Jack Crossfire]

Personally don't expect to be hired again when the mass layoffs finally hit Silicon Valley. It's probably a good idea to either already be running your own business or have the skills to run your own business. Doubt even the highest ranking Intel positions in Arizona will survive the big one, if it happens.

[clolson]

Ay carumba! :eek:
When he started this project I thought it was about it being cheap and sharing the love?!? :confused: I don’t know if that was such a good move in a climate where we could be in for a big wing clipping. :(

Look at all the stuff he's become an expert with ... worst case scenario I think he'd be towards the top of the resume heap for a lot of places out there. Although the way things have been going ... the resume heaps might be getting larger and larger before things get better.

I say "Ay Caramba" every morning when I wake up! I lost my university job at the start of this past summer, but I'm having a go at life doing project work, and actually getting to do some really fun stuff. Earlier this week I logged a 55 minute autonomous flight on our test airframe with an IMU based autopilot we are developing. There's always too much to do. The sad thing is when you take a 100+ mph jet-like airframe and make it fly at 35mph like a truck for almost an hour ... it's just screaming for a big electric ducted fan ... maybe some day when I've made my millions, I'll get to play ... :-)

Curt.

[kd7ost]

You guys seem to have partially misunderstood me. What I mean is someone should receive credit for their input if its put to use. People rarely get credit for anything when a "higher up" is involved. I dont think its too much to ask, even though you feel he is fulfilling a dream so to speak, giving someone who's idea/s were put to use the option to purchase the device at cost.

I bet at your place of work, if you gave the management an idea for something they put to use, you would expect credit in some form or another. For some things a simple "Thank You" is sufficient, however when the "entity" is making money off of something "you" had a part in, it would only be fair to offer them more. I personally see someone who would not do this as unethical and will not sign their claim to fame.

Im not saying Dean is like that, but it seems that way as all I see is Dean this Dean that when its obvious Dean did not do some of this and some of that. You even gave him credit above for something it seems you did. Not even giving yourself credit is bad, at least give yourself credit and be proud you did what you did. Dont get me wrong, Dean deserves credit, probaly most of it, but not all.


Interesting post Jappa,

It sounds like you give your boss good idea's but don't get credit for them. I mean this is obviously a sore spot with you. Try a different job maybe?

There is a lot more at play here. More than you see or know. We have been purchasing off the shelf UAV guidance systems for at least several years. Some longer than that. It is rare to be able to have a manufacturer ask you what your needs are and offer to custom build to suit those needs. If we had Deans skills in this area, believe me, we would have built our own. But in the world where the boss doesn't steal your idea's, smart people know to employ your resources where they are best suited. Some people make good airframes, some are good pilots, some can market, some can EE design etc. Dean is in his element here and has grown this project as we offer idea's or a "wish list" to help us. We don't share your grief. In fact we'll keep buying what is off the shelf if he doesn't sell a product. In this case though we don't have to have a designer tell us that to incorporate their product into our aircraft, that we must abandon our aircraft and go buy one that won't carry our payloads. Manufacturers like that don't work with you until you get into the $5,000.00 units and up.

I don't know how Deans Atto will price out in the end, but it will be cost competitive with the units currently on the market and I'm sure will be a more feature rich product at that.

I for one hope Dean makes a huge success of this for himself. We can only gain by that.

Some people set goals as high as their living room ceiling and hit their target time after time. Is that success? A few people shoot for the stars and might only hit the moon. Is that a failure? Dean is shooting for the stars and he has support from nearly all of us.

Dan

[Jappa_Indy]

Interesting post Jappa,

It sounds like you give your boss good idea's but don't get credit for them. I mean this is obviously a sore spot with you. Try a different job maybe?

There is a lot more at play here. More than you see or know. We have been purchasing off the shelf UAV guidance systems for at least several years. Some longer than that. It is rare to be able to have a manufacturer ask you what your needs are and offer to custom build to suit those needs. If we had Deans skills in this area, believe me, we would have built our own. But in the world where the boss doesn't steal your idea's, smart people know to employ your resources where they are best suited. Some people make good airframes, some are good pilots, some can market, some can EE design etc. Dean is in his element here and has grown this project as we offer idea's or a "wish list" to help us. We don't share your grief. In fact we'll keep buying what is off the shelf if he doesn't sell a product. In this case though we don't have to have a designer tell us that to incorporate their product into our aircraft, that we must abandon our aircraft and go buy one that won't carry our payloads. Manufacturers like that don't work with you until you get into the $5,000.00 units and up.

I don't know how Deans Atto will price out in the end, but it will be cost competitive with the units currently on the market and I'm sure will be a more feature rich product at that.

I for one hope Dean makes a huge success of this for himself. We can only gain by that.

Some people set goals as high as their living room ceiling and hit their target time after time. Is that success? A few people shoot for the stars and might only hit the moon. Is that a failure? Dean is shooting for the stars and he has support from nearly all of us.

Dan

Sore spot doesnt come from there, I am my own boss.

I dont disagree with you on 99% of what you said, and it seems maybe you partially misunderstood me as well.

[kd7ost]

I have seen this many times where someone comes into the forums with a project planning to make money from, people start throwing in ideas and they say "Yes, we are planning that" as if it was their idea already and nonschalantly add these ideas into the project with no credit to anyone but themselves. Then, trying to make money off the guys who essentially developed the thing. This is present with the Atto project too if you follow the thread carefully you can see it. One reason why I will not support such a project by buying there products.

I understand this. And this is what my reply was geared towards.
If you didn't mean what you said in this post then perhaps you could rephrase it? ;)

Dan

[dmgoedde]

The Attopilot is nice hovever the whole project is disqusting.

The Atto should be offered to all the people in its main thread at cost as it seems they helped develop a lot of it with suggestions etc. even if it was indirectly. I have seen this many times where someone comes into the forums with a project planning to make money from, people start throwing in ideas and they say "Yes, we are planning that" as if it was their idea already and nonschalantly add these ideas into the project with no credit to anyone but themselves. Then, trying to make money off the guys who essentially developed the thing. This is present with the Atto project too if you follow the thread carefully you can see it. One reason why I will not support such a project by buying there products.
As I re-read your text, I understand... but you got it all wrong. In the beginning I didn't plan on selling Atto. Also, going through all the trouble of getting to market is no picnic... most days I just want to play around and have fun inventing new stuff, but I have a mortgage and have to eat. Atto is a HUGE chore and never will be easy money for me.

If you knew how complex AttoPilot is you would not write what you did. No kidding but with humility, I know I am a smart guy, but that doesn't matter really... I knew tons of idiots in grad school getting their PhD in chemistry and engineering... and that was at UIUC, not a small school. Smarts <> success. Any ideas I might have gotten from the forum are VERY minor compared to my contributions and a few thousand hours of work and around $40k personal investment. Below, I will list the contributions I got from the forum that weren't my own, and who gave them to me.

>>>What you need to realize is it is one thing to think you understand something something or to have a seed idea, and an entirely other dimension to code it into a living breathing entity that is robust and works in the real world<<<

Actually, the closer people are to me, they do have a larger impact on my work, yet they are my biggest cheerleaders. Ask the following people what they think of what you wrote regarding me and AttoPilot and outside contributions... according to your theory they should feel the most robbed or screwed:
Icebear
Helitron
Tom Harper
kd7ost
jprouty
clolson
workshop
airmcn_3
ios
AltitudeAP
several others...

You should take a look around and see what else is out there. VERY few people have the resources and time to pull off something like this. Yes, I truly did learn electronics and coding and in 6 months from Jan to July 2006 and at the end of that I had a true IMU autopilot (2 axis gyro with simple filter for stable planes) with 4000 waypoint capacity flying a 48" span plane around my neighborhood. Back then I didn't even know what FMA was or a thermopile was, so it was hardcore right off the bat. I didn't even know what RCGroups was, only joined around July 2007... 1 year after my first autopilot. Absolutely no contributors there.

Contributions:
1) Tom Harper: wrote an application that takes my LOG.txt and creates a .kml path file so you may easily see a post-flight plot in Google Earth. I asked Tom if I could pay him to get the source code so my GCS software guy could easily integrate this into my software CD. Tom and I are still discussing the details. I am more than happy to pay and recognize Tom, who is a HUGE asset to the Beta team
2) CrashingDutchman: Is writing MobileManager for AttoPilot. He will get all profits from it directly from a link to my e-commerce page, or I'll pay him royalty per sale and just include it with every Atto.
3) Helitron: Corrected a funny approach I used pre-November 2007 for measuring Rx pulses. He said "No one does it like you are, instead you should use rising and falling edges of pulses". I re-wrote my code... had to learn assembly, and it took 3 hard weeks. Thanks to Helitron for the pointer, but do you REALLY think I am profiting on him with this???
4) Jimmy Prouty: for Wing cores, and his UAV industry experience and phone chats.
5) kd7ost: several good phone chats... lots of ideas bouncing back and forth. Dan is not a code writer... Atto is all code. Dan knows what works in the field. I am very new to UAV stuff, not really a guru like Dan is.
6) AltitudeAP: He's my PCB assembly guy, but has provided tons of other help getting things done... solid works on my XY thermopile head, sourcing cabling and connectors, etc..

So, if you are still disgusted with how I did Atto, then you are welcome to not buy one and teach me a lesson!!! You are wrong in your assumptions. My fiance and dad/mom know me better than anyone on here. All 3 of them know the cursing, late nights, and hard/fanatical work behind Atto. I quit Intel because it was VERY boring for me. I guess I could let what you wrote roll off my back.. but when someone is grossly wrong I get mad.

I got some ideas I just don't share here... but when I tell people in person they say "Whoooa... you have to be kidding me!! Holy SH**". Ask altitudeAP, airmcn_3, Bjorn, ios...

[Jappa_Indy]

As I re-read your text, I understand... but you got it all wrong.

I actually said I could be wrong in one of my posts and that you do deserve the majority of the credit. What I was saying was I hope you would give credit where credit is due. You done that here, and it is appreciated by myself and im sure by those you credited.

I do in fact know what it takes to develop a project like this as I have been in the EE field myself for many years. I have quite a bit of mcu programming under my belt but I will gladly admit I would not be able to implement what you have by myself. I think I could handle everything but the GPS side as I know practically nothing about it.

Some of what you wrote implies that somewhere I said you were dumb, I never said nor implied that. You certainly are not.

I had to learn assembly (PIC assembly) too, your not alone there.

I as well have crunched what would take most years to learn in a few short months, even days.

Just as you said, if you knew me you wouldnt have said some of the things you said as well. This being one of them.

>>>What you need to realize is it is one thing to think you understand something something or to have a seed idea, and an entirely other dimension to code it into a living breathing entity that is robust and works in the real world<<<

Trust me I TOTALLY realize this and have more than a few projects like this under my belt.

My latest "big" project was developing a 100KW 3 phase brushless drive that will drive a Light Engineering 100KW axial field brushless motor for use in an electric unmanned defense boat being developed by General Dynamics. While not as number crunching intensive as the Atto, its no small task developing a drive that meets GD's wishes. Ever tried implementing a "harmonic balancer" in software?

[dmgoedde]

Jappa - sorry.. I sometimes do have a chip on my shoulder if I felt someone thought I was dumb... but you certainly never wrote that. My apologies. I don't even want to think about the complexities of the 3 phase motor project you described.

I really have tried to be a good guy and upfront, even showing lots of plots and sharing my ideas that might help others, even to the point of close friends admonishing me about openly showing such details.

The reason I checked back on this thread to add a comment was because I figured out why I got mad... I have a LARGE beta team, and I sent them all units at materials cost (I am greatful as it offsets costs). I donated the time to construct them, and all the development time and testing on my end in return for large quantities of feedback. Also, several of the guys I mentioned above are getting FREE AttoPilot V1.7 units as colaborations are starting. This is how I operated from the beginning. financially I am still in the hole... slowly pulling out, and hope to re-build my 401(k) withdrawls ASAP... certainly it stung me that someone thought I am making lots of easy money on AttoPilot at other people's expense.

So now we are waaay off topic. AttoPilot is not even on the market yet... so really it doesn't belong on this thread yet.

[Jappa_Indy]

Jappa - sorry.. I sometimes do have a chip on my shoulder if I felt someone thought I was dumb... but you certainly never wrote that. My apologies. I don't even want to think about the complexities of the 3 phase motor project you described.

I really have tried to be a good guy and upfront, even showing lots of plots and sharing my ideas that might help others, even to the point of close friends admonishing me about openly showing such details.

The reason I checked back on this thread to add a comment was because I figured out why I got mad... I have a LARGE beta team, and I sent them all units at materials cost (I am greatful as it offsets costs). I donated the time to construct them, and all the development time and testing on my end in return for large quantities of feedback. Also, several of the guys I mentioned above are getting FREE AttoPilot V1.7 units as colaborations are starting. This is how I operated from the beginning. financially I am still in the hole... slowly pulling out, and hope to re-build my 401(k) withdrawls ASAP... certainly it stung me that someone thought I am making lots of easy money on AttoPilot at other people's expense.

So now we are waaay off topic. AttoPilot is not even on the market yet... so really it doesn't belong on this thread yet.


I apologize as well. I meant no hard feelings.

[d_wheel]

I have seen this many times where someone comes into the forums with a project planning to make money from, people start throwing in ideas and they say "Yes, we are planning that" as if it was their idea already and nonschalantly add these ideas into the project with no credit to anyone but themselves. Then, trying to make money off the guys who essentially developed the thing. This is present with the Atto project too if you follow the thread carefully you can see it.

Did you offer any suggestions or have ideas stolen from you? If not, then your message is a personal opinion and should be stated as such. I am happy to make suggestions as Dean seems to be able to take ideas and turn them into usable hardware/software. I have designed/built several autopilots over the years and know that it isn't easy to make one perform well. My hat is of to the Atto (http://www.attopilot.com/) project!

Later;

D.W.

[Demigod]

My hat is of to the Atto (http://www.attopilot.com/) project!

My wallet is out for the Atto (http://www.attopilot.com/) project!

[carguy84]

I think you probably pulled your money out of your 401k at the right time if you did it before this summer!

[kodel]

In my professional life, I often have people telling me:

"I have a great idea, but you need to sign an NDA before I'm willing to talk about it".

When I ask them how many of their ideas they have effectively turned in reality in the past, I usually get a dumb look back.

An idea is only as valuable as the execution that follows it.

Truly original ideas don't exist, great ideas are always the result of a collaborative mindwave across likeminded people. That's why product development done in the old way (product manager decides features, marketing tries to sell them, users complain) is being beaten today by the prosumer approach (users express their desires, product manager is listening to them and moderating between them, marketing is viral).

Deans approach is a textbook example of user driven product development, driving innovation by empowering his users.

I which him all the luck in his venture!

[pthompson24]

Well said kodel!

[eddymoore]

Anyone who has pushed an idea through from napkin doodle to reality will confirm that it's 10% inspiration, 90% perspiration. It's not just a clever-sounding throw-away comment. Most of the work really does go in after the bright spark.

Take a look at, say, Armadillo Aerospace's rockets.

A KISS rocket engine, three decoupled PID loops and an IMU running an extended Kalman filter. You can write a simulation for it in Matlab in a day. What's so difficult about it then? Go and read the last many-years worth of web logs on their site and see.

[Jack Crossfire]

It's time to create a new topic: RC Groups > Aircraft - Exotic and Special Interest > Dean Goedde with the following topics moved to it.

"what is the most recent autopilot?"
"Beta Details - dmgoedde"
"Video of AttoPilot Beta Test"
"AttoPilot Manager software for Windows Mobile"
"Question - Wind speed on board measurement for autonomous landing?"
"Discussion - Simplest low-cost 3-axis autopilot(s)"
Anything about Dave Perry.

[mboland]

Wan't this thread something about "what is the most recent autopilot?" ???

This last page was getting a bit thick.

[Jappa_Indy]

Truly original ideas don't exist, great ideas are always the result of a collaborative mindwave across likeminded people.


This was basically what I was trying to say. Hoping the "mindwave" would receive the credit they deserved. They did!!

This has been concluded in previous posts. This thread should not see another post about it.

[kbosak]

...

[AntonK]

Did kbosak just knock Paparazzi? I don't think Im going to even touch that one. Ill let the numerous MAV awards speak for themselves. I will say that Deans project looks amazing, and I wish him the best. I think we both have agreed in other posts that Paparazzi and Atto fit very different market groups.

AJ

PS. As an aside, kbosak, what exactly do you do? All Ive ever seen you do on RcGroups is criticize people or groups, without really adding any true value to the community. You should try it some time.

[kbosak]

PS. As an aside, kbosak, what exactly do you do? All Ive ever seen you do on RcGroups is criticize people or groups, without really adding any true value to the community. You should try it some time.
I am developing an IMU-based autopilot for EasyStar, specialised in Aerial Photography. I am around 4-5 months late compared to dmgoedde.
When I see somebody is doing something very wrong based on my experience, I am correcting it strongly so one can wake up. I don't have time for 1000 page success story this is why I might look like a stranger. :rolleyes:
www.kbosak.prv.pl more details on what I did for life.

For example I have criticized recently somebody for popping up with some miraculous idea about in the flavour 'we are close making atto to work for a helicopter'. A careful reading of other forums shows it is not nearly as easy as working with thermopiles. In such case 'non constructive' critics is essentially constructive because can fix the target on something feasible within next few months, and the person using the keywords, can search for explanations of the mentioned phenomena.

The only thing I am afraid of is that Dean miscalculated his efforts. If it really took that much effort, it's time to correct your businessplan. For example all govt contractors are well trained in this ;-) Otherwise he will just quit the job one day and we will end with a product without continuation. The idea of asking for some kind of... benefit... for the beta testers... at this stage is completely ridiculous. Also given what we know about professional situation of Dean. I have overreacted because I am receiving such opinions everyday: ppl add 0.01% contribution then as why those who contributed 0.1%... 1%.. more... are not rewarded yet. This is about basic rules. BTW I don't have to be contributor of anything to have the right to live in world of fair rules. This includes creator's point of view which I strongly support.

[pthompson24]

PS. As an aside, kbosak, what exactly do you do? All Ive ever seen you do on RcGroups is criticize people or groups, without really adding any true value to the community. You should try it some time.
I'm glad you pointed that out AntonK. You can tell he is smart but he's not making any friends. He needs a degree in How to win friends and influence people. :) Of course he will justify these comments with his Spock like logic I'm sure. :eek:

[dmgoedde]

I am developing an IMU-based autopilot for EasyStar, specialised in Aerial Photography. I am around 4-5 months late compared to dmgoedde.I've seen you write that before over in my thread. Does that mean You've had 50 Hz attitude control for a few months, and 8 months ago did 15 km 30 and 60 minute autnomous flights? This is sort of my timeline with 5 months subrtracted. I'm just curious, as I don't see any details posted.

The $^&$ing AttoPilot would be on the market if it weren't for ESD protections being done to the PCB layout and adding rail-to-rail diode clamp ESD protection ICs to the IO pins. I've seen a Pico-Pilot PCB and don't see such things on it, and from U3500 pictures I don't see all the extra stuff added. Making Atto VERY robust in the real World is the reason for all this new stuff and delays, but strictly speaking it is not 100% required. My personal copy of Atto V1.7 I use for flight testing has WELL over 100 flights on it without a hiccup, but the whole thing is about being a paranoid guy and basing all this development of TONS of REAL WORLD feedback. For the guys on here with other autopilot projects that we don't hear from quite as much as me (Zik, kbosak, Chris Anderson) I sincerely hope you have lots and lots of real World testing, and don't get zapped by reality once your thingy is released.

In grad school at UIUC I did inorganic chem synthesis of every dangerous pyrophic compound ever heard of (pyrophoric = "fire loving" and typically means spontaneous ignition upon contact with air or moisture). I learned to be VERY careful and paranoid about small details that can have a big impact. At Intel Corp for my 7 years there this paranoia is the culture, and I fit right in. In a $3 Billion factory with weekly revenues of > $100 million we don't take chances with quality. If there is any small chance something is not 100% correct or robust, we don't risk it and don't commit production material to the equipment. One silicon wafer might have 700 processor chips on it, and represent $50k or even $1 million revenue depending on the product. Nearly 100.00% of the faulty chips are caught internal and never see the light of day to customers. It is extremely rare that every chip on a wafer would "yield" and be sellable. Generally only some fraction of the chips work, and we have robust testing methods to sort them out. The WORST thing to do is sell marginal chips to Dell or HP, and have them fail later. The PR of that is a huge mess and screws up the brand name that is so hard to maintain.

So, hopefull you understand now a bit better who I am and why a marginal AttoPilot was not on the market earlier this year.

Hopefull the 4-5 month estimate for trailing Atto is accurate, and you won't be suprised to find out the hard way that it is more like 14 months due to "gotchas" when you get it released. I wish you the best... my own development has made me more than a tad insane at times.

[Buzz_Lightyear]

At Intel Corp for my 7 years there this paranoia is the culture, and I fit right in. In a $3 Billion factory with weekly revenues of > $100 million we don't take chances with quality.
Once bitten, twice shy I guess. (Thinking of a certain FPU)

[dmgoedde]

Once bitten, twice shy I guess. (Thinking of a certain FPU)The FPU debacle was a design issue way back in the 90's, and Intel fessed up and replaced the chips free of charge. I was referring to quality issues not design issue like the FPU.

Example: a piece of equipment in a high volume fab doesn't meet spec for gate oxide, defect density on the wafer, film resistivity, thickness, etc... We used really tight spec limits, and rigorous defect detection. I spearheaded the data mining and analysis for many a defect taskforce in my 7.3 years there. It was hardcore like being in a cult of fanatics. Any equipment that couldn't meet spec was immediately shut down until root cause was found and we proved mastery of the issue. Heck, even if the equipment met spec but was a statistical outlier from the population of other equipment we often shut it down to investigate. Thinking back, I can't believe how subtle some root causes were once found. It sometimes took years to find exactly why something weird happened 2% of the time on certain equipment.

As an engineer there, I got to swim in all the data mining a geek could ever dream of. Literally tens of terabytes of data could be pulled and used in models to see if correlations existed between Y effect and X potential cause. If it looked like a good correlation, then we'd try to prove causailty via experiments. Many an entire afternoon I cleared my plate of other work, grabbed a huge coffee, and sat at my desk pulling data and having fun just to see what could be found in every bizarre analysis you could think of. It was like unstructured play time in Kindergarten.

The whole reason I brought this story up is because I hope people understand my mentality for not releasing an AttoPilot just yet, even though I've been posting flight videos for over 1 year now, am living off 401(k) money. There is more than a little pressure on me to "just sell something". The Intel culture is something I'll always be proud to have on my resume. Quality always came before output, so we NEVER knowingly shipped something with known marginality just to make a quick buck right now.

[patrickegan]

If you think all of that drove you nuts, imagine system certification.

[raychang]

Dean,

I am looking for an Autopilot system, and am very interested in your Attopilot. In my application, I need to be able to dynamically Edit/Add the New Waypoints during the flight. Do you think the Attopilot can do that? If not, will you be able to let me know part of the source codes or data structure such that I can write my own code to add into the software that your system provide for that purpose?

Thanks a lot.

[dmgoedde]

Dean,

I am looking for an Autopilot system, and am very interested in your Attopilot. In my application, I need to be able to dynamically Edit/Add the New Waypoints during the flight. Do you think the Attopilot can do that? If not, will you be able to let me know part of the source codes or data structure such that I can write my own code to add into the software that your system provide for that purpose?

Thanks a lot.Another detail: I will make the uplink and downlink protocols known, so you may write your own custom GCS.