UAV 25mile range possible for under $2000?

[Dogzilla]

Do you think it's possible to build a UAV with a 50 mile range for under $2000?

I want to send a plane over the English channel and back again. At it's narrowest point its 21 miles.

Also do you think it's possible to do so with an electric plane? Or is glow better for this sort of thing? Assuming you can get a motor to run non stop for at least an hour.

[dmgoedde]

I would talk to duration electric R/C guys... and will PM you the name of one I know that has done multi hundred mile electric flights for the record books. Yes it is possible. Even my Miss2 with 4.4 Amp hours of 3s Lipo can fly at 25mph for 1 hour 15, so that is 31 miles right there in a VERY stock setup with a non-optimal flat bottom airfoil and draggy airframe.

What the solution looks like is a plane with flying weight of around 5 pounds, and 20+ Amp hour of battery capacity, low drag airfoil, and clean aerodynamic lines on the airframe, and of course properly matched prop for the motor, and an expensive motor like an Axi gold, or better.

[Gary Mortimer]

Heres an interesting start for that project, might be worth getting the DVD, a very english looking affair!!! The video clip teaser is great.

I have flown a hot air balloon over, amazed me how noisy the sea was half way across.

http://propertelly.com/wing.php

This is no ordinary modelling story, even after setting aside the world record - this is the tale of a highly unlikely friendship and how two friends pushed themselves - and their model aircraft - to the limit.

Two lives, poles apart. A freak accident brought them together. This is the story of two remarkable men - Nigel Hawes and Brian Collins - who made an audacious attempt at a world record and against all the odds made it happen.

Brian Collins is the fella in the wheelchair - a paraplegic after a motorbike accident. He's the MD of BRCHobbies, one of the largest suppliers of electric flight products in the country. His friend is Nigel Hawes, world renowned model aircraft designer and maker. Together they set themselves the task of flying one across the English Channel

[Jack Crossfire]

At that range, the main issue would be reliability. During several 50 mile flights out of visual range, hobby servos & electronics under $2000 would definitely fail a certain number of times. Such flights are illegal in US, so obviously no-one is US has even asked this question.

[patrickegan]

That’s good because it would be reckless, unsafe and could set us all back years. The title of this thread implies that we really don’t want to be able to legally fly anything in the future. ;)

[jetblackaircra]

Reckless? Unsafe? No offense, but that's crap.

It would be reckless and unsafe if it were done incorrectly.

A flight across the channel is totally doable for around $2000 with a builder/operator who has some talent.

Go for it!!!! If you need help, feel free to contact me, I'd love to be in on it.

Think about what people said about Lindbergh. That would have been considered reckless and unsafe, but he did it and it set off a revolution in intercontinental travel.

Don't let the fear of failure hold you back from doing innovative things. Be cautious and take calculated risks. Otherwise we'll just be stagnant.

[dmgoedde]

That’s good because it would be reckless, unsafe and could set us all back years. The title of this thread implies that we really don’t want to be able to legally fly anything in the future. ;)I want to clarify and add that the duration electric guy I referred to did this on a closed oval course, not cross country.

[patrickegan]

Reckless? Unsafe? No offense, but that's crap.

It would be reckless and unsafe if it were done incorrectly.

A flight across the channel is totally doable for around $2000 with a builder/operator who has some talent.

Go for it!!!! If you need help, feel free to contact me, I'd love to be in on it.

Think about what people said about Lindbergh. That would have been considered reckless and unsafe, but he did it and it set off a revolution in intercontinental travel.

Don't let the fear of failure hold you back from doing innovative things. Be cautious and take calculated risks. Otherwise we'll just be stagnant.


Crap?
How do you mitigate a flyaway, how does your sense and avoid system work? What country has certified it?

[Gary Mortimer]

I think following the aircraft with a boat would be a must, staying in sight at all times.

Its the sort of thing that requires planning and a word to those types down at Gatwick but it would'nt be an impossible task to get all the permissions in place. As long as your below 500' it would'nt be much of an air traffic issue.

Some clearly defined rules and all that, a scale model of Bleriots first aircraft to do it would be kind of neat.

I'm one of the first to kick up when I think that someone wants to do something silly here I often regret commenting as I feel like a stick in the mud.

But this as an idea seems like a why not, perhaps the title needs changing to the Bleriot mission or some such but otherwise, go for it.

[Dogzilla]

I think following the aircraft with a boat would be a must, staying in sight at all times.


That has always been my plan. I have a friend with a very fast rib who would be up for a day excursion :)

I'm not sure why this sort of thing would be reckless or unsafe if done properly. I don't intend to throw my money into the wind without adequate fail safes.

If we had health and safety officers control everything we did then we would still be stuck in the 1500s.

[jetblackaircra]

Crap?
How do you mitigate a flyaway, how does your sense and avoid system work? What country has certified it?



Obviously you'd have to account for all of those things, but they are not impossible hurdles.

You seem to always be the nay sayer. You're obviously very passionate about your hobby, but you seem to think no one else is capable of seeing these issues and coming up with a solution.

The truth is that one could come up with a very well laid out plan on how to go about accomplishing this task. Coordination between two countries would be interesting, and time consuming. But it is very possible.

I think this would be a perfect way to show how capable some R/C modellers are. Someone get ahold of the discovery channel and lets get this thing sponsored.

[Gary Mortimer]

I think I'd be calling the makers of the video I mentioned in an earlier post, Nigel Hawes writes for one of the better RC mags here and is very well respected. Also hes done it!! (one way) with Brian Collins who has an electric RC shop.

Seems that the perfect team members are in place, now to find the airframe and autopilot ;-)

No I dont mean a shop that is electric powered and driven by RC

[patrickegan]

Obviously you'd have to account for all of those things, but they are not impossible hurdles.

You seem to always be the nay sayer. You're obviously very passionate about your hobby, but you seem to think no one else is capable of seeing these issues and coming up with a solution.

The truth is that one could come up with a very well laid out plan on how to go about accomplishing this task. Coordination between two countries would be interesting, and time consuming. But it is very possible.

I think this would be a perfect way to show how capable some R/C modellers are. Someone get ahold of the discovery channel and lets get this thing sponsored.

I’m not a naysayer as much as I am concerned about safety and cooperating with the other airspace stakeholders. I don’t view this as just a hobbyist, I am heavily involved in the development of standards for the safe integration of this technology into the global airspace system. (RCAPA, FAA uSAU ARC and ICC) I’ve been at it for a few years and we’ve come a long way, Tipperary may just be in sight. :) It has taken a considerable amount of effort to bring stakeholders to the table and we want to be viewed/accepted as serious users.

[Jack Crossfire]

Well, you'd think the cost of the boat & boat fuel to trail the airplane would put a lot back into the $2000 tag. It's certainly been done before. Maybe the boating costs could go into redundant aerospace grade servos. People in the UAV forum automatically assume your mission is autonomous & out of line of sight if it's here.

[patrickegan]

That and the title of certain threads... :)

[icebear]

Assuming that safety/legal issues are taken care of, I think the aspect of long range electric flight is intriguing.

In my small electric setups I have found that 15-20 W/lb is OK for cruising and for long range the trick is of course to go for a light setup.

Assuming a 6 lb plane, this would equate 90-120 Watts for cruising - again assuming a 3S-LiPO pack this would mean that you would need about 10Ah's for an hour's duration.

I don't remeber how many Ah's that were needed for the Tucano channel crossing but I think it was in the region of 10 Ah's, but it is of course all a matter of plane size and weight.

The new EVO-Lite packs of 5,4 Ah only weigh around 12 oz so I definitely think it is doable using an electric with the right airframe/motor/prop/battery combo.

My small 54"/2 lb "Miss2" trainer flies for 45 minutes (@ 25 mph) on a single 3S-2500 mAh pack but I wouldn't send it across the English channel... :)

/Icebear

[chargenut]

I'm intrigued by all this... having just finished building (but still enhancing) a MikroKopter. I have had to dabble in electronics a fair amount, and part of the setup is GPS and obvioulsy some Gyros...

Keep me posted on how you get on and maybe I can help out if you need it...

I definately want to be there should you attempt this to help capture the moment, even if I haven't needed to contribute.

Terry.

[jetblackaircra]

I've got an airframe almost completed that will do it. And, as I've mentioned in other posts, it's price tag will (barely) meet the $2000 mark as far as my cost goes including radio gear, propulsion, and the autopilot I am helping to develop. As far as fuel cost to get across the channel on a boat, can you sail? :-)

[Zeppman]

UAVs are not legal for civilian use in UK airspace so according to this: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/30/uav_project/

[dmgoedde]

I have a Miss2 like Bjorn, with a bit more Lipo... 4.4 Ah total from 3s2p... I get 75 minute cruising duration at 27 mph. That is 33.8 mile range. Like Bjorn said, assuming legal/safety is taken care of, I would risk the plane in a heartbeat to try a channel crossing. Also, I don't see any need for "aerospace grade" servos like someone wrote. I have some smally UAVs with HS-55 that have flown a cumulative 150 miles. For a channel crossing I would, at most, upgrade to HS-81MG metal gear servos, and replace the flat bottom airfoil with something a bit better lift/drag ratio.

[Jack Crossfire]

Had an HS-81MG fail on a tail rotor & an Airtronics 94761 fail on another tail rotor after 20 hours. What happened is what happened. All of us endorse autopilots based on hobby servos, & we'd still buy them if they failed every 10 hours, but reality is there.

[dmgoedde]

Had an HS-81MG fail on a tail rotor & an Airtronics 94761 fail on another tail rotor after 20 hours. What happened is what happened. All of us endorse autopilots based on hobby servos, & we'd still buy them if they failed every 10 hours, but reality is there.Ouch sorry to hear about that.... I stopped trying to fly helis years ago... they are unforgiving, and the fun quotient was too low for my mental makeup.

BTW, is there a good yet easy way to gang 2 servos in a "OR" logic fashion? I think I saw something for huge scale planes.

[pthompson24]

.... I stopped trying to fly helis years ago... they are unforgiving, and the fun quotient was too low for my mental makeup.



I started this hobby a year and one half ago with helis. I love the concept, and would love to fly them for real. At the time I wanted nothing to do with planes. But as I realized the limitations of the 450 size for lifting cameras and while waiting for the Align 500 to be released I started to experiment with planes and became hooked. The way I could design and build them myself was captivating. Plus they are so much more stable and don't make me as nervous while in the air at great distances and heights. Just before switching I actually bought an Align 600 electric but I only test flew it once and it has sat on a shelf since. I keep thinking I'll get back to it but haven't yet and may decide to just sell it. Part of me thinks if I do actually put my camera on it and take it up I might get re hooked on helis. It's strange how one gets pulled in different directions.

Paul T.

[Gary Mortimer]

UAVs are not legal for civilian use in UK airspace so according to this: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/30/uav_project/

Um point of order it actually says this UAVs cannot currently operate in UK skies, except in "restricted conditions".

Now I have to contact some of the guys at the CAA for work this side and they are all jolly friendly.

I'm sure they would only help if asked nicely and not put barriers in the way. I mean that.

Have a look at this clip, I know it happened at a rocket range but they must have been involved in some way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwIhEDq6tdY

Now if thats allowed...... Should you not be too tuned in to the vehicle used, its a three wheeled car, the Robin Relient, made out of fibreglass.

I hope this channel crossing utilises such a spirit of fun, its a british attempt of course it will. It should also happen before Johnny foreigner has a crack.

Anyone for Pimms

[Prof100]

Um point of order it actually says this UAVs cannot currently operate in UK skies, except in "restricted conditions".

Now I have to contact some of the guys at the CAA for work this side and they are all jolly friendly.

I'm sure they would only help if asked nicely and not put barriers in the way. I mean that.

Have a look at this clip, I know it happened at a rocket range but they must have been involved in some way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwIhEDq6tdY

Now if thats allowed...... Should you not be too tuned in to the vehicle used, its a three wheeled car, the Robin Relient, made out of fibreglass.

I hope this channel crossing utilises such a spirit of fun, its a british attempt of course it will. It should also happen before Johnny foreigner has a crack.

Anyone for Pimms

That was unbelievable. The two commentators are real characters too.

[treehog]

The project is doable but its not for sure

The first facts are ATC rules are often reduced with flights over water in Internatonal waters which often starts at 3 miles out to sea followed with staying at heights less than 500 feet and keeping all up weight less than 7kgs for UK RC rules and less than 50cc for french catogary 3 model rules which are basic RC catogary

If there is a following boat then the necessity for complex Autopilot is much less and RC control could take over if the flight is kept within range of the RC unit on the following boat

The project could be a simple RC project with no auto pilot and then would just be a simple RC take off fly and returns and land project

French ATC could be a bit funny but joining the FFAM and thier help the problem could be sorted

Basically for long distance the gasoline engine of 50cc would be the easiest cheapest

A high wing trainner type or Cub type or Telemaster type plane solution would be slow fly eneogh and be able to carry bigger fuel tanks

Using a Paparatizi UAV solution could keep costs low
A second hand 50cc gasser plane and engine could keep costs low

The boat a rib type with ~1 to 3 mpg at £6 $12 a UK gallon makes the boats fuel bill reach from £100 to £300 ($200 to $600 )

A gasser with floats could do the 3 mile limits and probably not have so many issues and so just go to wider point and do two 21 mile runs and prove the facts without getting so tangled in tape to be over land


Ralf

[Peter Seddon]

Didn't Nigel Hawes and the guy who runs BRC Hobbies (wheelchair bound) cross the channel with a model a couple of years ago? Might be worth contacting them.

regards Peter