Xtron 700 Scorpion 4035-560 Outrage 10s

[Philpops]

Hi peoples,

over the past couple months, Ive been working on a test machine to try out some of the new motors and packs availible in the 90 class e scene.

I used the main drive head and tail components from the RJX xtreme 90, which includes a helical main gear, and full programable head. Ive designed a frame so suit.

As ive touched the ground with the tail a few times with other helis, I decided to go with a belt drive over the torque tube. So far its been working very well.

Im currently trying out the new Outrage packs which seem to be working extreemly well, great temps, weight, and extra headspeed. I havent had a huge amount of cycles on the packs, so I cant comment on their cycle life.

The Scorpion 4035- 560kv is holding up well, running a 9:1 gear ratio, 10 tooth pinion, 90t main gear, with a headspeed of about 2200 on the 700mm blades.

Running the usual 10 degrees cyclic, 14 degrees pitch.

We did some data logging yesterday to actualy see whats happening. The third flight for the day ended early with one of the wires from the deans plugs coming unsoldered. Plugs were also fused together.

Peak current 138 amps
Peak watts 4.8kW on 10s

Packs came down at 49 degrees C (21 degrees C ambient)

Setup-

690-710mm mains, 102mm tail
10 5000mah
Scorpion HK4035 560kv
AUW 4.7kg
2200 headspeed
+-14 degrees pitch, 10 cyclic
2100mah 2s Rx pack
Dualsky 8 amp reg
JR 8915 Servos
JR 770 gyro +8900g tail servo
AR9000 reciever

[Philpops]

few graphs

[Philpops]

few more pics

[4cyclic]

4800 watts ? wow , must be great with this much power. :D
The motor and pack temps seem very good. Is the motor now available ?

[TomC]

Phil,

This must be the highest powered 10s set-up ever. A good torture test for those batteries though.

Imop, until someone comes out with 50C lipos, you need to go to higher cell counts to go for this kind of power. In your case, 15s and a lower kv motor would do the trick.

Good luck and cheers,
TomC

[litespeed]

Wow, finally something good about the BIG Scorpions. I guess I'll think about adding it to the list again.

Tom

[Aidz1]

Looks Nice Phil! Some impressive figures for 10s thats for sure. Just need some videos now.

A bit of further information for those intrested.

Motors are available to purchase in Australia (not sure if US has them yet)

Phil is running a prototype HK4035 since his version there have been several changes made mainly to the fan design and cooling holes. Production motors see around 10-15 deg cooler temps

the HK4035 series is 12s max so 15s is out of the question but 12 would be more fun:0

Aidan

[TomC]

Looks Nice Phil! Some impressive figures for 10s thats for sure. Just need some videos now.

A bit of further information for those intrested.

Motors are available to purchase in Australia (not sure if US has them yet)

Phil is running a prototype HK4035 since his version there have been several changes made mainly to the fan design and cooling holes. Production motors see around 10-15 deg cooler temps

the HK4035 series is 12s max so 15s is out of the question but 12 would be more fun:0

Aidan


Adan,

Yes, I'm sure 12s would be great as well!

Cheers,
TomC

[misskimo]

hey , yeh! looks kinda good !! HE HE!!! I have a 4035 and wasnt able to try it on the trex 600 I been flying, this past week I had more trouble out of all my helis Ive ever had at one time! 14mz took a crap! HFE frame change to HFX was a big horses crap, nothing matched ( dont no how eco8 gater had it running) and just ready to step on it! But owell

[Philpops]

Im actualy going to stick with 10s. Ive been using 10s 5000mah in 90 size e helis for the past year with good results. The packs are coming down with good temps, and the power availble is absolutely nutts!

12-15s no doubt would give even more power, and or efficiency, prolly tear the heli apart :) balancing cost of packs/chargers/balancers, power, temps, etc, 10s is more than enough for me at the moment :)

[TomC]

Phil,

If 10s is working for you Mate, then stick with it imop. I think your CC hv110 esc (?) is happier with 10s anyway. If you wanted to go to 12s , or higher, a PowerJazz would be a good idea (but an expensive one).

Same goes with your belt driven tail (versus TT). However, it does look to me that your rear vertical fin could be a bit longer. I always make sure my fin is ~1 inch longer than my tail blades, esp. since I'm not that great a flyer!

Another option to think about in the future might be to re-gear down to ~2050 hs (~9.5:1) and go flybarless. I think that you would find that this will give you about the same performance as a flybarred setup at 2200 but will be a lot easier on your electric components.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Main thing is, you are having fun!

Best cheers,
Tom C

[ozace]

Phil, having access to Toby's toys make for some fun playtime i expect.

Now i want to see a video of 4.8kw, it must be impressive.

[rerazor]

When and where will these motors be available in the US??

[Philpops]

Phil, having access to Toby's toys make for some fun playtime i expect.

Now i want to see a video of 4.8kw, it must be impressive.


nah, these are my own toys, they take up enought time to work on and play as it is :)


definately hope to get a video sometime soon...

[Philpops]

Phil,

If 10s is working for you Mate, then stick with it imop. I think your CC hv110 esc (?) is happier with 10s anyway. If you wanted to go to 12s , or higher, a PowerJazz would be a good idea (but an expensive one).

Same goes with your belt driven tail (versus TT). However, it does look to me that your rear vertical fin could be a bit longer. I always make sure my fin is ~1 inch longer than my tail blades, esp. since I'm not that great a flyer!

Another option to think about in the future might be to re-gear down to ~2050 hs (~9.5:1) and go flybarless. I think that you would find that this will give you about the same performance as a flybarred setup at 2200 but will be a lot easier on your electric components.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Main thing is, you are having fun!

Best cheers,
Tom C


believe it or not, im running a CC85 HV. It barley gets warm. I Tried a CC110hv couple weeks ago as you would think a model this size a 110 would be minumum, but it lasted 2 mins, and came down blinking for an unknown reason, also barly warm.

Waiting to see how the Scorpion HV speedy will go.

PowerJazz is a bit on the overkill and heavy side imo.

Flybarless is definately something to consider, I tried it on a xtreme 50, but didnt quite like the way it feels during some 3d manuvers when involving tail input. Maybe down the track ill give it another shot.

Have you got any pics of your Ion X helis? how did you mount the 3 5s packs?

cheers

[4cyclic]

Phil, what is your flightimes with this 10s setup, and how would you compare these Outrage packs to others you may have tried. I have their 2200mah 3s 25c packs in my 450 and they are really good. I have also some Hyperion 25c 6s 5000 packs on my 600E, and I'm not impressed with them.

[TomC]

believe it or not, im running a CC85 HV. It barley gets warm. I Tried a CC110hv couple weeks ago as you would think a model this size a 110 would be minumum, but it lasted 2 mins, and came down blinking for an unknown reason, also barly warm.

Waiting to see how the Scorpion HV speedy will go.

PowerJazz is a bit on the overkill and heavy side imo.

Flybarless is definately something to consider, I tried it on a xtreme 50, but didnt quite like the way it feels during some 3d manuvers when involving tail input. Maybe down the track ill give it another shot.

Have you got any pics of your Ion X helis? how did you mount the 3 5s packs?

cheers


G'day Phil,

I mounted mt 3x 5s packs; 2 up front on both sides and one behind the left one. The Ion-x frameset is pretty narrow so I don't think it has too much of an effect on lateral CG. X-cell heli's always tilt a bit right anyway (because of the strong tail) so I thought it actuall might help, but I do not see/feel any difference.

I'll try to post a few pics (I'm not very good at this);

Also, you can see my set-up specs at post #75;

http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?p=739130#post739130

Cheers,
TomC

[Philpops]

Phil, what is your flightimes with this 10s setup, and how would you compare these Outrage packs to others you may have tried. I have their 2200mah 3s 25c packs in my 450 and they are really good. I have also some Hyperion 25c 6s 5000 packs on my 600E, and I'm not impressed with them.


If I fly them hard, I land at 4.5min which is more than enough for me. mild 3d and not pushing them as hard I can get a couple min extra.

essentialy the hyperion, FP, polyquest, aswell as some TP packs use the same cells, with some slight different pack building methods. These were for me the best all along, been using polyquest packs for 5 years now since they first came out at aircraftworld. I have quite a few 10s 5000mah polyquest packs and they dont compare to the new Outrage packs. Less voltage drop and mor consistant power to the end are the main differences I have seen. Ive also discharged the pack to below 30volts and its been working fine since. This has been my experience anyhow, so far so good.

[Philpops]

hmmmm flybarless.... Looks good Tom

[rerazor]

So is there anyway to get a shaft for 5mm pinions on the HK4035?

How do I tell if these are the newest versions?
http://www.innov8tivedesigns.com/index.php?cPath=21_25_68

[Philpops]

So is there anyway to get a shaft for 5mm pinions on the HK4035?

How do I tell if these are the newest versions?
http://www.innov8tivedesigns.com/index.php?cPath=21_25_68

Prolly best to ask them, Ill get you a photo of the latest motor

not sure about the shaft, maybe Aidan can chime in. Would seriously suggest minimum 6mm though!

[ozace]

Shafts come in 5, 6 and 8mm for all our needs. I just made sure to order the spare shafts when i got my motors.

[Philpops]

New Scorpion 130 amp 12s speedy has arrived for testing.

[rerazor]

Oz, where did you order the motor and shafts from?

[ozace]

I got mine from arkinnovations.com.au, Aiden does a terrific job with scorpion down here.

[Philpops]

heres a quick vid

http://www.rotarypower3.com/mhw/xtron700.wmv

hope to have a full vid with the outrage packs soon

[ShuNut]

Arh Man, that vid is a tease :p , you've left us gaging for more. Hope you dont make us wait too long.
Very nice flying! :eek: :D

I have the 500kv version on a Logo-600, my 1st big heli so cant compare it to anything really, power is great and i love the way it flys. :)

Peace

[TomC]

Phil,

Man that's about the zippiest 10s 90 sized heli I've ever seen! What were the motor, esc, and battery temps after this flight?

Cheers,
TomC

[Philpops]

:) yeh its got the speed of a high powered e50, video doesnt make justice on the effect of the 700mm blades.

temps are pretty much the same as the temps in the first couple of posts. Looking into getting an ion x atm :)

[cfrank2005]

Hi Phil, nice flying there with your heli. Pity there wasn't more of the outrage packs. R your packs 2 x 5S connected in series? Also, where did you source your outrage packs from? I have the same Scorpion HK4035-560 in my Raptor e620, but powered by 2 x 6S Extreme Power 4600mAh batts. I'm just curious to see how the e620 would do on 10S and I think the Outrage packs would be sweet for it (while also dropping the weight).

[Fred Bronk]

2200 HS, that seems alot for a heli that size. I was more that happy with 1800 on my 600mm heli, but thats me.
Lots of pitch too, must be awsome :D

[Philpops]

Hi Phil, nice flying there with your heli. Pity there wasn't more of the outrage packs. R your packs 2 x 5S connected in series? Also, where did you source your outrage packs from? I have the same Scorpion HK4035-560 in my Raptor e620, but powered by 2 x 6S Extreme Power 4600mAh batts. I'm just curious to see how the e620 would do on 10S and I think the Outrage packs would be sweet for it (while also dropping the weight).

cheers mate!
your running 12s 4600mah in a 600mm bladed heli? jeh that must be heavy.

10s is more than enough for a 50 size heli, normaly around the 3700mah, depending on your flying style and run time needed.

Yes im running 2x 5s 5000mah packs from Helidirect.com and also one from takeandland.com.au

[Philpops]

2200 HS, that seems alot for a heli that size. I was more that happy with 1800 on my 600mm heli, but thats me.
Lots of pitch too, must be awsome :D

hehe, the more power to tear up the sky the more addrenaline for me :D

[chichisport]

Would you be so glad to share more on the conversion?????

[Philpops]

yes what would you like to know?

[chichisport]

Thanks , It would be great to know the thickness of the motorplate , the width of the frames and any other non std feature . Close pictures would help .

[RNAF]

Maybe a weird question, but can you estimate an amp draw for a Vario Skyfox (660mm blades) on 10s lipo, auw of approx 4kg and a headspeed of somewhere near 1300 rpm?
I'm still choosing a battery. Got a Kontronik Jazz 55, so my guess is that a 10s1p 4400mA 15c battery will suffice? I think this would be enough because the ESC limits the max. amp? My goal is to get some 12 minutes of flight time.

ps: for what it's worth: not doing any 3D. Using separate batterypack for the electronics. Getting the 4035-560 soon..

[chichisport]

Search for logo 24 setups ,I think the 55 would be enough even for a bit more headspeed.

[RNAF]

Search for logo 24 setups ,I think the 55 would be enough even for a bit more headspeed.
The point is Vario doesn't allow a higher headspeed than 1600 rpm and most setups I've found on RCGroups or other sites are for 3D flying.

[chichisport]

http://www.mikado-heli.de/en/logo24/
http://www.mikado-heli.de/en/logo24/rmotors.htm

A 40 amp controller is recommended :)

http://www.minicopter.de/en/Joker2.html


Joker 2



Master data
Fully Aerobatic Electrical Helicopter
using (6)8-12s Lipo packs (6s only with 30C-packs)
Main rotor diameter: 1560 mm
Tail rotor diameter: 290 mm
Weight: 3,4 kg plus battery.
Flight time: 4-20 min, dependend from battery size, flight style, rotorspeed and weight
Energy consume: smoothest flight+best conditions: 0,2Ah/min // Extreme 3D: upto 1Ah/min :) :) :) :) :)

[RNAF]

Chichisport,

those links were extremely useful! I found that logo 24 before, but due to a large difference in rotordiameter (can be chosen) I never took that as a solid source. The Joker 2 looks very nice. Don't think my heli will weigh 3400 including battery :P