Tales of Everyone's Swift(s) Part Two

[muley]

Funny - I had a DS20 on my 500 with a 2100T gyro, and no matter what I did the tail was kinda baggy, if you know the feeling. I always thought it was something else wrong. Now through a series of fleet swaps/ upgrades I have a JR 500T on it and it flies absolutely locked. The logitech gyro is now paired with a JR 3400G (I think) servo that came with the 500T and IT flies great on my 450! Some kids get along well together and some don't. I just thought I sucked @ gyro setup!

[JustPlaneChris]

Yep, it's weird... I love the Hyperions for cyclic, and paired with the GY401 they seem to work well. I've been helping a friend try to get one of the micro DS-09's to work with a Logictech and it just won't play right. It 'pauses' near center stick and just acts weird. I've given up and will swap him a 9650 for it, and try the DS-09 with my 401 on my newest toy (LA Heli Ricco micro)

-Chris

[maarset]

OH GEESE! ANother one Chris! Your Crazy. Those have amazing disk loading though. Always wanted a Maxir. Not sure if they make those anymore. I can barely maintain and support three helicopters.

[osterizer]

He can't help himself any more than we can :).

[jamesppp]

The Riccos look great...lets see some vids when you get a chance.

[Greybird]

James, I got some white lithium, safe for plastic grease. The Tri-Flow was totally gummed up and "sticky".. I'll test later today. EDIT: S-m-o-o-t-h :D

[JustPlaneChris]

I know guys, I'm a lost cause. I also just ditched the flybar on the Protos and finished all the wiring and setup last night. This weekend should be interesting! I too always wanted a MaxiR, but never could justify the price. With the prices coming down, and the Ricco (a follow-on to the MaxiR) coming out.... I just couldn't help it.

The Ricco kit should arrive today or tomorrow, and I'm stripping the Blade 400 (at least temporarily) to use the servos and gyro in the Ricco. So see, I'm not technically adding another heli to the fleet. It's more of a trade. :p

-Chris

[Prime12]

Guys, is it just me or has any one of you noticed QC problems with the stock 2-block solid shaft? Even thoughThe hollow shaft that came with my heli was perfectly true, both of the solid ones I bought afterwards were not perfectly true (you could see from the head button wobbling, and no it's not the button; it didn't wobble when it had the perfectly true shaft).

I don't want to get the triple bearing block upgrade if I can because I do AP often and want to cut down on the weight.

[maarset]

Is the solid shaft better? My Swift came with a hollow shaft. My Hawk has a solid shaft. Is the solid shaft stiffer? Probably alot heavier.

Also if I was to do the third bearing mod can you get the shaft as solid or hollow? The third bearing mod seems kind of tough cause you have to drill the frame for the lower bearing holder.

[JustPlaneChris]

All the newer frames have the holes for the third bearing upgrade. As far as I know, the longer shaft for the third bearing is only available solid.

-Chris

[Gadget01]

I've yet to see another heli in this class beat the Swift's price for a new frame:

http://store.rcsupersales.net/servlet/-strse-4532/MAIN-FRAME-(LEFT-%26/Detail?sfs=56b15435

At this price, drilling holes in the earlier generation frame for the 3rd bearing is simply not a good use of your time.

[jamesppp]

Is the solid shaft better? My Swift came with a hollow shaft. My Hawk has a solid shaft. Is the solid shaft stiffer? Probably alot heavier.

Also if I was to do the third bearing mod can you get the shaft as solid or hollow? The third bearing mod seems kind of tough cause you have to drill the frame for the lower bearing holder.


An hollow tube will resist bending more than a solid one of the same base stock. I have always used the hollow shafts but now that I have installed the 3rd bearing block Im stuck with the solid shafts.

When I bought my metal head block and a box of other parts it came with a head button. It has always wobbled. I found out it is an Align button ;) no wonder

[cloud9000]

Hey guys!
I'm a newbie to the larger helis and picked up a Swift 100% RTF a couple of weeks ago. I've been practicing since and slowly getting the hang of it.

I took the bird out today for more practice and learned alot more about rudder control. Halfway through the the practice run, the back of the heli reared it's butt and the front dipped. I was only a couple of inches off the ground. I decreased the throttle and it was back on the ground. When I throttled up again, the heli would spin counter-clockwise and no amount of rudder power would straighten it. I took it home and inspected it and the flybar was slightly bent.

Could a slightly bent flybar cause the counter clockwise spin? Would a bent feathering spindle also cause this problem? (I searched the forums and this could be one of the causes.) I didn't take apart the head to check yet because my tools are at the office.


Part #5:
http://www.centuryheli.com/products/helikits/swiftRTF/parts/1_headblock.htm?currentid=549&display=2


Here's a picture of my heli w/o the canopy:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v394/pauljchoi/IMG_0716.jpg

[oldeflyer]

Guys, is it just me or has any one of you noticed QC problems with the stock 2-block solid shaft? Even thoughThe hollow shaft that came with my heli was perfectly true, both of the solid ones I bought afterwards were not perfectly true (you could see from the head button wobbling, and no it's not the button; it didn't wobble when it had the perfectly true shaft).

I don't want to get the triple bearing block upgrade if I can because I do AP often and want to cut down on the weight.
I talked to Century tech support last year regarding the poor quality shafts since they started making solid ones. My issues are not with them being straight, but the fact that they are too soft. The Century tech said they were aware of the problem but I don't think they have done anything about it. The one-way bearing starts to dig in and bulge the metal after about 10 flights and the upper bearing collar set screws gouge the shaft. I fixed the upper bearing problem by going to a Logo clamp on collar. This is happening to both the long and short shafts.

[Greybird]

Century sells the clamp on collar also. CN2302. $4.95

[oldeflyer]

Century sells the clamp on collar also. CN2302. $4.95
Interesting thing about that clamp on collar. It will only work for the metal upper bearing block plate, either the upgrade or the 550/620 stock. I tried to put one on my almost stock 16 and it didn't have enogh room to go around with the shaft :) .
I like how the clamp on doesn't need the set screws so I think I'll put a small upgrade into the 16 and get it a metal upper bearing holder. One of these days I will run out of my stash of hollow hardened shafts and have to start using the soft solid ones. :rolleyes:

[helifrek]

Hey guys,
i got to fly earlier this week, heli flew great! did some rolls and inverted after i got comfy. it started acting funny so i set it down. well today I had it all charged up and almost ready to take it outside but I remembered the tail was acting up. I checked it and found it to be loose, I started to tighten it up but then notice the drive shaft for the tail gear dropped and was no longer in it's little hole. 2 hours later and i replaced the tail boom mount with a new one and the hollow main shaft for a solid one. wish me luck. i will try to get a vid. thanks again guys.

Brandon

[dswitkin]

Hey guys!
Could a slightly bent flybar cause the counter clockwise spin? Would a bent feathering spindle also cause this problem? (I searched the forums and this could be one of the causes.)
My guess would be that these would cause various vibrations but would not cause the heli to yaw uncontrollably. Are your tail servo, gyro, and linkages to the tail rotor all OK?

Daniel

[Dogwoodtheone]

one of these days I'll learn not to to try and fly until after my second cup of coffee and to double check everything before take-off.

I set up my Gyrobot the other day - battery got low and it freaked a bit, charged the battery and everything looked fine.

Took it out this morning (live on the end of a cul-de-sac (SP?) and fired it up, took off ok, hover seemed good, but it started drifting away, little back stick and WHAM it flips over and heads straight to the ground :eek:

looks like minimal damage - hit throttle hold before it hit - tried to make sense of what happened - pulled the what was left of the blades off and powered it back up - seems the elevator control settings had gotten reversed :(

oh well - live and hopefully learn -good thing I was using cheap woodies

If I keep this up I'm going to need a job real soon :eek: (anyone in the Eugene Or. area looking for help? :) I think I'd like to move there)

[Gadget01]

Ouch... sorry to hear of your misfortunes, Doug. I swapped the Sk360 from my stretched Swift to the other, and I knew I should have just erased the model memory on my tx and started from scratch. The subtrims that I had were preventing the Sk from giving me a green light... and I'm glad it has this feature. Not that it would have meant a crash otherwise, but I'm sure it would have meant something less intuitive to track down later. One thing I could have missed had I not checked for it... the elevator gain was reversed because I had to reverse that servo. It was one check-box away from a violent flip-induced crash.

I don't know what it is about Century's shafts. My last batch of feathering shafts are not within spec and the blade grip radial bearings won't fit. I find the same thing with the solid main shafts- it doesn't take long before the one-way deforms the surface of the shaft and makes a ratcheting sound when it spins.

[Dogwoodtheone]

Yeah the electronics do add a whole new layer of fun.

But they also allow a whole new lvl of fun - nothing is free :D

[jamesppp]

Dogwood, dont feel too bad. I crashed both helis that I took to the field today..

Made the fatal comment at breakfast, before heading to the field, that I must not be pushing myself hard enough because Ive not crashed anything in a while. As far as my collective pitch helis, I had only 2 crashes total. Both times, and almost a year apart it was my Swift...Im not counting playing in the yard with my little fixed pitch helis and hitting a tree...

Anyway, I was practicing autos with my Outrage and caught the tailfin in tall grass with a good bit of forward speed at the bottom and smacked it down hard. Fortunately it only flattened the skid struts...I have it ready to go again already

Not such a good turn out for my little Beam. I told someone that it was a year old and had never even had a hard landing..I cant say that now. I put it in hard.I was doing consecutive flips and just lost my mind. I almost crashed it at one point because I got disoriented so I recovered and kept doing it..for a little while.

My pretty(to me) canopy that I painted for it broke into several pieces, but with a few parts ordered it will be back up soon. Just needs frames, gears, blades, fins, canopy, shafts, collars a couple of bearings and a belt. The Gorrila gear skids, paddles and tail blades are still perfect as is the boom.Got lucky there. :D :D :censored:

[dswitkin]

Ouch, two in one day James. I feel your pain. I put my T-Rex in coming down from a stall turn a couple weeks ago. It was the "one more flight" I wasn't going to do. The flybar was so bent I thought I would have to cut one side off just to slide it out. My battery also came out looking like a Tetris piece. :)

Daniel

[Dogwoodtheone]

SOunds like it was a bit of a bad day to fly :eek:

[asw20rr]

I bet the fiberglass blades would perform better than the 550 wooden century blades I have on it now. Or maybe not.


Hey Maarset,

I haven't had much time to fly lately and no time for forums, but I got my head back above water by the end of the day Friday :)

I just threw a set of unknown fiberglass blades on my Swift yesterday. I got them in a lot of blades I bought off Ebay. Don't know what brand they are or anything. They are just a bit longer than the stock woodies and a bit wider chord.

Basically I have progressed to the point where I can tell the difference in the flight characteristics on my Dragonus between woodies and CF, so I figures since I had these FG's lying around that would fit the Swift I ought to see how they flew. I have not flown the Swift with CF, but I would say that the way the FG's flew they are between woodies and what I would expect CF's to fly like. They were markedly quieter, and definitely felt more rigid in strong cyclic maneuvers. They seem to give similar flight time to the woodies, but I'll need to fly a couple more packs before I'm sure of that. They are HEAVY, but hey I need to learn to auto, so.....

For the price of the FG's at HeliDirect, I'd give them a go. Anyone want to buy some woodies? Seems like I have a bunch - LOL.

Doug

[maarset]

Hey thanks for the input Doug. Scored some 555 MAH CF blades I will try on the Swift and I'll pick up some Fiber Glass or CF Pro 3d (Helidirect.com) blades for my hawk. But I kind of want to use 570's on the Hawk to increase the disc loading.

[wetwolf]

Finally did my 1st fig8 today all the way around. the left side was flat and boring, but the right side was banked. When I screw up, i can get it back to me very quickly tail in and my recovery in any orientation is pretty good. can do side in either side without too much hassle. still workin on the nose in, but having to much fun with FF.

got about 30 flights without a mishap, so i must be getting better. :) :)

The CF blades have made a big diff in the way it reacts and my confidence. I have found out that collective is your friend. ;)

Oh yeah, got an airplane stuck in a tree tonite, had to go get my 20ft stick to beat it out of there.

[osterizer]

Oh yeah, got an airplane stuck in a tree tonite, had to go get my 20ft stick to beat it out of there.

That's a good thing. A helicopter would beat itself out for you.

[Greybird]

Well, I got my 3rd Swift kit today. :eek: This one is going in the Coast Guard body. I need cyclic servo's and a motor. Any suggestions? ( I got a small bonus at work. I got the T10CHG, a second receiver for my 6S Swift, and a Swift kit for the CG. I will also be able to get servo's, motor, and stuff to get the CG flying. I will re-use an ESC, and 401 out of my Eco. The other half of the bonus goes to my other half, for shoes, purses and clothing. :rolleyes: )

[JustPlaneChris]

I can give the Hyperion DS20-FMD servos two thumbs up for cyclic. I'm using them in my Knight 3D, and they are excellent.

-Chris

[rotoraddict]

Mine is now set up with Futaba S-3151 servos, the Century 600+ motor and 80A ESC and set for a rotor speed of 1550 on 5S packs. I really like the sound and enjoy trying to fly it so that it looks scale like. That is why I am using the Hawk Pro paddles on it with the weights about 1/2 the way out.

I have seen two others at different events.

One was using the Century 550+ motor/55A ESC on 4S packs also set for a 1550 head speed on 4S/3700 packs. He was using S3001 servos. Though this is a relatively low cost combination it flew very well....also with Hawk paddles.

The other was using the 600+ motor with the 80A ESC using S-3151's and 6S packs with the head speed governed down to a 1700 head speed. He would even roll and loop it.

[Greybird]

Here is quick pic of the 620 gear. I am going to put it on this heli when I convert it to 2.4. I like the "beefy" look.

[Gadget01]

Yeah, those look a LOT better.

Still, really tall as if you were supposed to put a battery pack down there... maybe I'll try them for aerial video work :D

[Greybird]

Well, I went to look at the GY520. It looks ridiculously small. I cannot spend $200 bucks on it. Looks like I use a 401.

[JustPlaneChris]

It is insanely small and light. ReadyHeli has them on sale for $169.95, just add to cart to see the price. :D

-Chris

[maarset]

What Collective Pitch are you guys getting with your Swift 16's?
Seems like the max collective pitch I can get is 10 degrees.
And the maximum cyclic I can get is 6 to 7 degrees (without binding too bad) which seems plenty.
Rolls and flips very fast at 1850 gov headspeed. My CCPM mixing is in the low 60's.
But I'd like to get some more collective pop without losing my cyclic travel.

I guess I could easily increase my headspeed but it's a all plastic head and I don't
think that would be safe.

My power system doesn't seem to bog at all at 1850 head speed and 10 degrees pitch when I
give it max collective. It just goes and goes with no bog what so ever.
So I'm thinking I could get away with another 2 degrees of collective
if that is possible. It does climb pretty good though.

Scorpion 4025-740 10T
CC85HV ESC
10s A123
MAH 555 CF blades
stock head. Stock paddles
stock tail blades
401 - Hyperion DS20GMD (Going to put the JR 770 back on soon)
AR7000
JR DS811 cyclic servos

[VTX Aviator]

Maarset,

I managed to get +/- 12 degrees on my 550 by going to a low profile collar above the top main bearing.

Bob

[maarset]

Thanks Bob. Did you modify the collar or is that a stock part you can get?

[Greybird]

Cn2302 $4.95

[Greybird]

I found some lights for my Coast guard Swift. In the RC car area. pre-built, 4 lights, with a switch, plugs into reciever. 20bucks. I will have to lengthen the wire for the rear light. So lights, landing gear, 2 fans. I can put all those extra channels to good use. :D

[Spidious]

What kind of fans are you going to use and where are you putting them . I may just put some back in the fuselage when I get it back together..

[Greybird]

5 volt 30mm computer fans. From www.buyextras.com About 6 bucks. I have one in each Swift already. In the fuselage, I will point one at the motor, and one at the ESC. Can't hurt to keep air moving in there.

[maarset]

Had a great flight with the Swift this morning. It's flipping and rolling well with the MAH 555 CF blades at a 1850 headspeed. It doesn't flip and roll as fast as it did with the SAB 550 CF blades. The SAB blades were 105 grams and the MAH are 125 grams. Is that why the SAB blades seemed quicker? Cause they are lighter?

Also with the SAB blades I could get 6:30 flight time before the pack dumps (10sA123). Now with the MAH blades my pack is dumping as I just pass the 6 minute mark. Do heavier blades use more amps? Really need to get a eagle tree. Kind of unhappy with the flight times. Not unhappy with it's flight characteristics with the A123. I'd probably be more happy if I had two A123 packs.

I started doing this thing where I am in FFF and I pull up sharply and give some negative pitch while I complete a back flip while trying to keep my forward momentum. That is fun. Not sure what it is called though.

Call me crazy but I'm thinking about trying out the hyperion g3 VX or CX packs. Anyone know if both the CX and VX packs can be charged at 5C? I see that the VX can handle more amp draw. But I wasn't sure if the CX that can handle less amp draw can be charged at 5C.

As it is now with my A123 pack and the 6 minute flight times I think I'm pulling an average 25 amps. I've heard of others averaging around 25 average amps. Which would make sense with my math below.


A123 10 2300mah pack 30C 800 grams
2.3amps * 30c = 69.0
2.3amps * 20c = 46.0
2.3amps * 15c = 34.5
2.3amps * 13c = 29.9
2.3amps * 12c = 27.6
2.3amps * 11c = 25.3 <------------------ Right Here
2.3amps * 10c = 23.0
29V * 2.3amps * 1 = 66.7 (WATTS PER HOUR)
66.7/30c = 2.223333 @ 69 AMPS
66.7/20c = 3.335000 @ 46 AMPS
66.7/15c = 4.446666 @ 34.5 AMPS
66.7/13c = 5.130769 @ 29.0 AMPS
66.7/12c = 5.558333 @ 27.6 AMPS
66.7/11c = 6.063636 @ 25.3 AMPS <------------------ Right Here
66.7/10c = 6.670000 @ 23.0 AMPS

BUT! If I tried out two 4s Hyperion G3 CX 3300mah packs that would weight around 726 grams I could get OVER 11 MINUTES FLIGHT TIME! That can't be right. My Swift would be a little lighter than with A123's but not by much.

HYPERION G3 CX 3300 MAH 4S 14.8V 25C/45C LIPOLY PACK 363 grams (726 grams total) $85.95 $171.00 (2)
3.3amp * 25c = 82.5
3.3amp * 20c = 66.0
3.3amp * 15c = 49.5
3.3amp * 10c = 33.0
3.3amp * 8c = 26.4 <-------------------------------- Right Here
28v * 3.3 * 1 = 92.4 (WATTS PER HOUR)
92.4/25c = 3.696000 @ 82.5 AMPS
92.4/20c = 4.620000 @ 66.0 AMPS
92.4/15c = 6.160000 @ 49.5 AMPS
92.4/10c = 9.240000 @ 33.0 AMPS
92.4/8c = 11.550000 @ 26.4 AMPS <------------------------- Right Here

If I went with two 4s Hyperion G3 CX 2500mah packs that would weight in at 536 grams for the pack I would probably do around 7 minutes.
I would be able to recharge almost as fast as with my A123 pack with my iCharger 1010B+. The heli would be 264 grams lighter. Not sure if I would notice that. Might lose the awesome momentum that my A123 swift has right now. I would probably have to rebalance the heli.

HYPERION G3 CX 2500 MAH 4S 14.8V 25C/45C LIPOLY PACK 268 grams (536 grams total) $65.95 $131.00 (2)
2.5amps * 25 = 62.5
2.5amps * 20 = 50.0
2.5amps * 15 = 37.5
2.5amps * 10 = 25.0<----------------------- Right Here
28v * 2.5amps * 1 = 70.0
70.0/25c = 2.800000 @ 62.5 AMPS
70.0/20c = 3.500000 @ 50.0 AMPS
70.0/15c = 4.666666 @ 37.5 AMPS
70.0/10c = 7.000000 @ 25.0 AMPS <----------------------- Right Here

But of course I risk destroying 130 to 170 dollars worth of lipo's in a crash or over discharge. But I'm pretty good about timing my flights. I would also be able to use my same gearing.

Of course I could put a bigger pinion on and run a 6s Hyperion 4000mah pack but then I would not be able to use my A123 pack. I don't like that as an option.

If I went with two Hyperion G3 CX 3300mah 4s packs I would only have a slight CG issue and similar flight characteristics as with the A123 pack. I don't know if I could fly the swift for over 10 minutes. It would be like my Hawk with a OS32 but alot more power :)

Of course this is all guessing on my part. I need to get a eagle tree to back most of this up.

EDIT: Actually I'm thinking since I burn about 300 mah per minute I'll probably get 9 minutes out of the 3300 mah 8s packs.

[sting35]

EDIT: Actually I'm thinking since I burn about 300 mah per minute I'll probably get 9 minutes out of the 3300 mah 8s packs.

Actually, if you are pulling an avg. of 25 amps, as stated above, you'll get more like 6 minutes from 3300 mah packs. 3300 mah = 3.3 amp hours x 60 (minutes) = 198. So, 198 * 0.8 (80% of battery capacity) = 158.4. Then 158.4 / 25 (amps) = 6.336 minutes. 1s of A123 batteries are roughly equivalent to a 3000 mah lipo pack due to the fact that you can run A123's until they are flat whereas the lipos shouldn't go below 80% capacity (if you want them to last). Or did I miss something in your (rather long) post.

Also, the blades will make a difference in how much juice gets sucked out of the battery and how the heli flies but, 20 grams is only about 3/4 oz. Perhaps it's because of the centrifugal force of the 3/4 oz. whirling about at 1800+ rpm that makes a difference. I tend to think it has more to do with the airfoil shape, length and chord of the blades that affects the flying characteristics.
(DISCLAIMER: I am not an aeronautical engineer, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night).

Sting

[Gadget01]

I'm so tempted to reveal what I've been working on with Swift #2 the past few days....

Once it's ready to fly, I'll just let the pics do the talking.

:D

[JustPlaneChris]

You are such a TEASE! :p

I'm IM'ing with James (Sparx) right now, as he and Osterizer drive back from XFC. James got to fly Ost's SLT (Swift Long Tail) and loved it! Dammit, I guess it's time to get mine in the air again maybe with a long tail. :)

-Chris

[maarset]

SLT (Swift Long Tail)? So are we talking 620 tail boom and 600mm blades?

[JustPlaneChris]

That's exactly what we're talking about. Gadget has one, as does Osterizer. Ost's is freakishly light (5 lbs 10oz) on 600mm blades. That puts the disk loading down into the "holy crap" range. :)

-Chris

[nieves50]

guess what heli this came from....

(hint: it's not a Swift)

I figured at minimum it was an interesting perspective to share

That's a Blackhawk head. or any of the M, U or S variations of the Sikorsky Helicopter..

[maarset]

That's exactly what we're talking about. Gadget has one, as does Osterizer. Ost's is freakishly light (5 lbs 10oz) on 600mm blades. That puts the disk loading down into the "holy crap" range. :)

-Chris

CRAP!

That is a very light Swift. Did some searching and couldn't find his setup.
Just that he is using a Scorpion 3026-1000. I wonder if he is using that on 600mm blades?
I might be able to use my Scorpion 4025-740 in a stretched swift but my flight times would probably suffer even more.
But I could run those Radix blades!

As it is now my headspeed (1850 gov) drops at 6 minutes doing very agressive sport flying in wind and I am only putting 1800 mah back in the 10s A123 pack. You would think I'd be able to use more of the A123 pack. But they were used cells.

[nieves50]

Man, you all beat me to it! I've been entertaining the idea of a 620 boom + 600mm blades for months now. The only thing that I need is a good 8T pinion for my 1100Kv motor, need to drop the HS a bit since I'll be using wood blades (interested in relax flying). I'm thinking 1800-1900 should be good....


On top of that I need to get parts for my H550 + EXI450, both crashed on Friday!

Too many helis.....wallet is not big enough!!! ;)

[maarset]

Man, you all beat me to it! I've been entertaining the idea of a 620 boom + 600mm blades for months now. The only thing that I need is a good 8T pinion for my 1100Kv motor, need to drop the HS a bit since I'll be using wood blades (interested in relax flying). I'm thinking 1800-1900 should be good....


On top of that I need to get parts for my H550 + EXI450, both crashed on Friday!

Too many helis.....wallet is not big enough!!! ;)

Yah but if you went with longer blades wouldn't that cause your headspeed to be reduced naturally? I know that when I went from 325mm blades to 335mm blades on my Blade 400 my headspeed would go down.

[JustPlaneChris]

I'm sure Osterizer will chime in with more details when he gets back home, but I think he has since updated to the 4025 series Scorpion, and he's running much lower headspeed than you'd think (in the 1700s). The secret to quick performance at low headspeed is the lack of flybar and the higher pitch ranges you can run without it binding things up. :)

-Chris

[maarset]

Wind is stealing my MAH! Never been a big wind flyer untill i got a bigger heli. Light winds for lunch flight today w/ swift and 6:30 flight full power. Love those running back flips.

Ah i see the light now about flybarless JPC.

[JustPlaneChris]

Yes, wind eats the power! It takes more pitch on those upwind legs. And power eats the power too... I've been flying my flybarless Protos only on windy days (that's all we've had since the conversion) and despite theoretical increase in efficiency, my flight times are slightly lower because the responsiveness and power encourages me to fly the :censored: out of it. :D

-Chris

[maarset]

So with the FlyBarless unit on the protos, does it make you want to put one on another heli? Like maybe a Swift? Hint Hint. So Osterizer is running a flybarless unit on his SLT Swift?

I guess since you don't have the flybar linkages to deal with, you can ramp up your cyclic pitch to like over 7 degrees then. I'm hard pressed to get 7 degrees of cyclic out of the swift without binding. Maybe the low profile main shaft collar will let me get more cyclic. But I doubt it.

[JustPlaneChris]

Yes, dammit. Now I want all my helis flybarless. :p

As for the cyclic, you usually have to ramp DOWN your cyclic pitch to the recommended 10 degrees. :) When I first set up the Protos I was getting like 15 degrees of cyclic and something way off the chart on collective.

I'm certainly not a flybarless expert, I'm only just beginning this new learning curve. And I love it. :cool:

-Chris

[Gadget01]

I've had this idea on the backburner for quite a while and decided it was time to give it a try.

This is with a slightly shortened normal-length tailboom. I took about 2cm or so off the front and extended the notch that engages the transmission case to allow the belt to make the bend to this height. The intermediate tailcase had to be modified slightly- just a little spot grinding for the belt to clear and for the bellcrank attachment. The right-side plate is still roughed out of ply for now because I don't like to drill or cut carbon until I'm very confident in the design, and I like for the hole spacing to be spot on. I'm pretty happy with it so far- I can hold the heli by the very end of the tail and it all feels pretty solid.

The intermediate bellcrank is cut from one of the cyclic servo push-pull ball-raced bellcranks and rotates just as easily. I trimmed the shorter sides off and bolted on a carbon plate to mount the servo pushrod pivot ball. The linkage moves freely and the belt rolls just as easily as it does straight as far as I can tell. I'm sure it will consume slightly more power since there is never a free lunch. The idler pulley is by Hirobo from my LHS. Hopefully the weather will allow a test flight tomorrow.

[Dogwoodtheone]

Looks pretty good Gadget :D

[Rickn816]

Yes, dammit. Now I want all my helis flybarless. :p

As for the cyclic, you usually have to ramp DOWN your cyclic pitch to the recommended 10 degrees. :) When I first set up the Protos I was getting like 15 degrees of cyclic and something way off the chart on collective.

I'm certainly not a flybarless expert, I'm only just beginning this new learning curve. And I love it. :cool:

-Chris

Welcome to the future. IMO, the GyroBot is the best unit technologically. SK 360 is the easiest to set up. I can't wait to see the new mini V-Bar which includes a JR/Spektrum Rx and electronic flybar.

Rick

[JustPlaneChris]

Rick, I agree! I've had my eye on the Gyrobot too (and had my hands one one for about an hour, before shipping it off to the UK).

The mini V-Bar is intriguing. I did some reading, and it doesn't actually have a receiver built in, but you can just connect one or two Spektrum satellite receivers and you're done. It would be perfect for my LAHeli Ricco micro. :cool:

Ah, so many toys to try.

-Chris

[Rickn816]

Rick, I agree! I've had my eye on the Gyrobot too (and had my hands one one for about an hour, before shipping it off to the UK).

The mini V-Bar is intriguing. I did some reading, and it doesn't actually have a receiver built in, but you can just connect one or two Spektrum satellite receivers and you're done. It would be perfect for my LAHeli Ricco micro. :cool:

Ah, so many toys to try.

-Chris

I have the 900, which includes the memory for three programmable modes. Interesting. The tail gyro is not bad, either.

[osterizer]

Yes, dammit. Now I want all my helis flybarless. :p

As for the cyclic, you usually have to ramp DOWN your cyclic pitch to the recommended 10 degrees. :) When I first set up the Protos I was getting like 15 degrees of cyclic and something way off the chart on collective.

I'm certainly not a flybarless expert, I'm only just beginning this new learning curve. And I love it. :cool:

-Chris

Yessiree-Bob :). When I first changed up the head, the collective range was too high in both directions- my pitch gauge goes to +/- 15 degrees and it was off the end. I'm at ten degrees collective now, maybe 8 degrees cyclic, and I'll probably reduce it a bit more. At 1750 or so with the 600s on it, I have it on good authority ( :) ) that it's still crazy fast. The 600s really turned up the volume on the head though; it wasn't nearly that fast with 550s. I like the quick response, but I really don't think it will be reduced much with the lower pitch range-- it'll more likely make it easier not to stall it, and the flight times may improve a bit, too.

[Gadget01]

Test hover using 550mm mains with the elevated tail went well. The rain here is not letting up yet, but I have enough covered room on my front porch to hover on... barely. The sound produced with the concrete wall and tile floor is kinda cool but the margin for error is pretty small so I doubt I'll make a habit of it. Tail performance seems unaffected with short jabs of rudder input and this is a totally stock tail- even oem plastic tail blades.

[Greybird]

That will make a great scale project Gadget.

[VTX Aviator]

OK, you guys got me ;) I installed a 620 boom and belt on my 550 last night. Man, those 550 blades sure look short! Now starts the slow road to making a 600 size bird and I'm looking for input. So here are some thoughts and questions:

I'm thinking about going to an 8S Lipo setup so I could also use 10S A123's without changing anything if I wanted to. Probably a Scorpion 4025 (740KV?) and a HV ESC. Maybe even flybarless somewhere down the road.

Do I need the metal blade grips for the bigger blades, and do they come with all the necessary bearings? I already have the metal tail case.

I currently run 6S1P 5000's on the 600 Century 1100KV motor with the Century 80/100A ESC. I also have a Z30 800K that I could use until I could afford the Scorpion. Would that have a chance at spinning the bigger blades?

Has anyone modified the 550, like some have the 16, to vertically mount the batteries up front? I'm a little worried about being tail heavy with the longer boom. As it was, I had to cut a lot of canopy to get the 6S 5000's far enough forward to balance.

Sorry for rambling so much.

Thanks,

Bob

[Greybird]

I've had this idea on the backburner for quite a while and decided it was time to give it a try.

This is with a slightly shortened normal-length tailboom. I took about 2cm or so off the front and extended the notch that engages the transmission case to allow the belt to make the bend to this height. The intermediate tailcase had to be modified slightly- just a little spot grinding for the belt to clear and for the bellcrank attachment. The right-side plate is still roughed out of ply for now because I don't like to drill or cut carbon until I'm very confident in the design, and I like for the hole spacing to be spot on. I'm pretty happy with it so far- I can hold the heli by the very end of the tail and it all feels pretty solid.

The intermediate bellcrank is cut from one of the cyclic servo push-pull ball-raced bellcranks and rotates just as easily. I trimmed the shorter sides off and bolted on a carbon plate to mount the servo pushrod pivot ball. The linkage moves freely and the belt rolls just as easily as it does straight as far as I can tell. I'm sure it will consume slightly more power since there is never a free lunch. The idler pulley is by Hirobo from my LHS. Hopefully the weather will allow a test flight tomorrow.
How about a Huey gunship?

[maarset]

OK, you guys got me ;) I installed a 620 boom and belt on my 550 last night. Man, those 550 blades sure look short! Now starts the slow road to making a 600 size bird and I'm looking for input. So here are some thoughts and questions:

I'm thinking about going to an 8S Lipo setup so I could also use 10S A123's without changing anything if I wanted to. Probably a Scorpion 4025 (740KV?) and a HV ESC. Maybe even flybarless somewhere down the road.

Do I need the metal blade grips for the bigger blades, and do they come with all the necessary bearings? I already have the metal tail case.

I currently run 6S1P 5000's on the 600 Century 1100KV motor with the Century 80/100A ESC. I also have a Z30 800K that I could use until I could afford the Scorpion. Would that have a chance at spinning the bigger blades?

Has anyone modified the 550, like some have the 16, to vertically mount the batteries up front? I'm a little worried about being tail heavy with the longer boom. As it was, I had to cut a lot of canopy to get the 6S 5000's far enough forward to balance.

Sorry for rambling so much.

Thanks,

Bob

yes I wish Ost would post his specs :)

I tilted my radio tray up and mount a 10sA123 pack on it. I had two 3000 mah 4s packs I was going to try too. But they were lighter so i would have to move my HV85 ESC around to get the lipo's to balance. Running the Scorpion 4025-740 and it is very powerful. I think that if I ever stretch the swift it could work. Looking forward to your answers VTX

[maarset]

Is it safe to run a Futaba 9650 digital tail servo on a Swift 16 with 550 blades? it would be paired up with a JR770.

[JustPlaneChris]

I've heard of it being done, but I personally wouldn't run a 9650 on anything bigger than a 425mm bird. But that's just me. :)

-Chris

[Gadget01]

Bob- going FBL will lighten the load on the power system. When I converted my Swift, I overshot my 7 minute timer by double when I noticed the headspeed decaying from bumping into the low voltage cutoff. I guess I was having too much fun or something. It would not have nearly gone that long with the flybar still there.

Metal grips are definitely recommended but it's not critical if you keep headspeed low. How aggressively you fly is an even bigger factor. The metal tail case is nice, but this is more bling than functional necessity. It makes it much easier to adjust belt tension though, and for that reason alone, it's worth installing. And it does photograph quite nicely....

I ran my SLT with the same lipos as I always do with 550's- 6s 4900mah FP. This is a bigger pack than what Align packaged with flybar'd T-Rex 600's. You're not going to go up against Alan Szabo with it, but it will definitely fly just fine.

You should be able to modify the 550's front tray to accommodate your pack. It's a big tinker-toy.... go for it. I used to have a TP 6s 5000mah but it was too big to stuff inside the canopy so I sold it. It has a longer/thinner profile compared to the FP 4900. The longer tail makes it a little more tail heavy, but dramatically. I've been thinking a lot about getting a 550 frame to move one of my 16's components into. I'm starting to like the idea of a driven tail, but I also like the float time of the non-driven tail. Decisions....

[Greybird]

The 550 also has that nice elevator control arm........

[VTX Aviator]

Thanks for the replies Maarset and Gadget01. I took her out this evening for four flights and I liked it :cool: I can't quite explain the difference yet, but it seems to fly a little different with the longer boom. And I think it makes it more visible for my old eyes. Even with the batteries as far forward as I could get them, it was still slightly tail heavy, but not too bad. I can't wait to try some bigger blades. I'll have to try something with the radio tray too...

Gadget,

My flying is slowy progessing. I do flips, loops, rolls, and I'm just starting to hover inverted for a few seconds at a time for now. It will be a long time before my nerves will let me do anything too crazy :eek: The metal tail case is definately worth it for the adjustability alone.

Now if I could just find some more money and speed this process up. Sometimes it sucks being impatient!

Bob

[Gadget01]

I thought about trying to order just the parts for the airframe, but that's probably a lot more work than it's worth and probably doesn't save me much $$ vs just buying a 550 kit, and then I have more spares. That's super low on the priority list for now. I'd rather aquire more lipos (especially because I only have 2 for Swift flying) or another Sk360. I would like to try out the Hyperions- I'm hoping Kyle gets more in stock soon.

Bob, my flying is about the same. I think if I did less tinkering on the workbench I could get more flying in to improve those skills.

[osterizer]

yes I wish Ost would post his specs :)

:) I'll have them up shortly. I've been doing some tinkering, and finally got out for some test flights this past weekend while we were in Muncie. I'd like to have a decent setup to share and hopefully some vid, too.

VTX- I've stretched a couple of helis already, and the tail has always been smoother. It was a good improvement on the Swift, too. Just be cautious when you go for 600 blades. They made the cyclic a lot stronger on mine. It's not bad (far from it!), but it was a surprise. As it is, mine flies like a 325 mini.

Gadget- way cool tail, man. I put the Cobra kit on my Mini Titan, which moved the tail up in line with the main disc, and if it's possible, it was even smoother. I'm trying to get around to shooting some video of the MT with the Cobra body on it, then I'll take it off so I can get back to flying it like a rental, but I may leave the elevated tail. Scale or not, I just like the way it flies. Are you going to make some kits? :)

[VTX Aviator]

I'm eagerly awaiting the specs and videos :cool:

[RcSuperSales-Net]

Yeah Adam. The full kit would probably be the better Deal. I'll call my people and see if I can get a deal ;)

Kyle

[maarset]

Wow looks like there is Swift talk on the new insideheli podcast. Downloading now

[osterizer]

I'm eagerly awaiting the specs and videos :cool:

Here are the basics:

Swift 16
Phoenix 80, Castle BEC
Futaba 607FS, DS821 cyclic
GY401 with 9254
Scorpion 4020-1100, 10T
5S 3300 and 4000mAh Zippy packs

Flybarless changes:
Skookum SK360
Mikado 12mm spacers part num MIK4051
Mikado 3mm I.D. balls (so you can use 3mm bolts into the grip arms)
Mikado swash driver (but there are other much less expensive ones from Century, RJX, Outrage, ...you name it)

Stretch changes:
620 boom, belt and pushrod (as Gadget said, it really is that easy)
Mavrikk G5 Pro 600 blades

Not really necessary, but good for my peace of mind, is the aluminum head block and grips plus the Delrin dampers.


The part I still need to work out is the control throws and swash ranges- yes, the new IH has flight impressions and chat about the setup :cool:, and you'll hear, it needs some tweaking still. If I can find some good settings there that will keep the responsiveness and not load it up so much, then I think we'll have a winner.

[Greybird]

Hey Gadget. Order now at Heliworld, and get a Swift 550 for about $250 with free shipping. They have a Dads and Grads sale going on. 60 off any order over 300. Go have a look. That is a GOOD price for that heli.

[VTX Aviator]

Thanks osterizer. It's hard to imagine swinging 600mm blades on 5S and a 4020. This gives me hope and may reorder my purchases. I could keep using the 6S packs a maybe change my 1100KV motor out with the Z30 800K to drop the head speed some. This way I could enjoy it while I save up for some of the more expensive items. Looking forward to the videos...

What kind of head speed, flying style, and flight times are you getting out of this combination? I usually fly my 6S 4900's for between 5 and 6 minutes and rarely put back more than 3200 mA back into the batteries. I'm not sure exactly what head speed I fly at in Idle 1, but I guess it was around 1900 to 2000 rpm. Sometimes I flip it to Idle2 and run closer to 2200 rpm.

Bob

[osterizer]

I have my timer set for six minutes. If you're flying gently you can go much longer than that- the head is only turning about 1730, but as light as it is we were talking about lowering it further. It doesn't need a high head speed to get great performance, and James' flight only took 3050mAh out of the 4000mAh pack, flying to the timer, and he wasn't babying it. Hovering current is about 27-28A, so 6 min is good for aero, maybe 8 for cruising/sporty type flying.

I've thought about using 6S a few times, but it's not necessary. I'd use whichever I had :).

[RcSuperSales-Net]

Hey Gadget. Order now at Heliworld, and get a Swift 550 for about $250 with free shipping. They have a Dads and Grads sale going on. 60 off any order over 300. Go have a look. That is a GOOD price for that heli.

Hells yeah it is. I will see if I can get a screaming deal from them to give back to you guys.

Kyle

[Gadget01]

Hey Gadget. Order now at Heliworld, and get a Swift 550 for about $250 with free shipping. They have a Dads and Grads sale going on. 60 off any order over 300. Go have a look. That is a GOOD price for that heli.Yeah, that's tempting for sure. Heli-World is not very USPS/APO shipping friendly. They expect me to go through their convoluted international shipping process, which includes emailing them my saved shopping cart and then wait for a reply to move the process forward. I'm sure that won't be cheap.... UMMMM nope. I would rather give Kyle my business anyways.

[jamesppp]

Gadget, are you using or were you using Trex 600 skid struts on your Swift when you installed the coil over shock system on the back end a while back?
If so, when using the Trex skids mounted normally with the stock gears rear wedges installed, is there any major tail clearance issue.

I have the Trex 600 skid stuff on my Swift but havent bolted the tail on yet It looks like the angle that these skids give you will have the end of the tail up high enough to clear everything. With my battery packs mounted in the underslung position there isnt much clearance to play with there but it shouldnt be much of a problem except with my tail down auto rotation landings that I seem to always end up with. I need to work on that.

Thanks,

Jimmy

[Gadget01]

Gadget, are you using or were you using Trex 600 skid struts on your Swift when you installed the coil over shock system on the back end a while back?
If so, when using the Trex skids mounted normally with the stock gears rear wedges installed, is there any major tail clearance issue.Jimmy, the 'Rex 600 gear was in place when I was tinkering with the coil-overs. Since that gear sits the heli considerably lower to the ground, tail ground clearance is insufficient. The gear wedges are the right idea, but they are molded to match the curvature of the gear tabs on the frame and of the stock gear struts. The top of the Rex skids is flat where it connects to the frame.

I use nylon standoffs with rubber-lined washers on the ends. The coil-overs also served this purpose, but they really didn't do much to dampen landing shock since the springs were grossly undersized for the load- they would bottom out instantly. That's what you get for mail-ordering parts vs. seeing them in a store. It was fun to tinker with but ultimately they were excessive weight in the air.

Without anything to set the rear strut further away from the frame, there's no way my tail blades would clear (your mileage may vary)..... unless you elevate it otherwise as shown below. For the front strut, I used rubber grommets between the gear and the frame like a washer to make a quasi-flexible joint by only tightening the screws enough to compress the grommets about halfway.
I have the Trex 600 skid stuff on my Swift but havent bolted the tail on yet It looks like the angle that these skids give you will have the end of the tail up high enough to clear everything. With my battery packs mounted in the underslung position there isnt much clearance to play with there but it shouldnt be much of a problem except with my tail down auto rotation landings that I seem to always end up with. I need to work on that.Tail-down autos aren't much of a problem for the 16, since the tail is undriven. For the 550/620, yes... level it first before plunking it down or slide it onto the ground going tail first :cool:

Or just elevate just the end of the tail like this:

[jamesppp]

Gadget,

Thanks for the info. I like your high tail design. I have the Swift rear spacer wedges mounted on the skids. I used a dremel to remove the rib on the Trex skid struts so that the cf battery mounting plate fit right. Ill probably need to raise the front up a little bit. Ill rig it with some silicone washers or something .

Ive got to get back on the Swift fix soon..I have too many projects going at one time and havent been getting anything done Ive lost momentum now that the summer heat is here.

[dswitkin]

I've heard of it being done, but I personally wouldn't run a 9650 on anything bigger than a 425mm bird. But that's just me. :)

-Chris
Are you saying that because of the speed of the 9650? Because it actually has twice the torque of a 9257, and more than a 9254...

Daniel

[JustPlaneChris]

To be honest, I wasn't aware the 9650 had that much torque! :eek: But it is really pokey, in the overall scheme of things. It also won't work well with some of the newer gyros (Solid G).

-Chris

[osterizer]

I used the 9650 on the Swift for a while because I had one on the bench. It's a little awkward to mount but it could work if money is tight. As Chris says, though, it's had its day as a tail servo. The 9254 is much better on something like the Swift (and it should work with the Solid G even :) ).

[jamesppp]

Osterizer, my flying buddy used a 9254 with a Solid G with good results. He replaced it with a BLS 251 and says it does make a difference in hard tail slides and such but the 9254 is compatible.

I have one of the new Outrage 760µs tail servos that is the size of the 9257 Futaba servo. It is pretty fast at ,054 sec/60°. It doesnt have much torque but would work great on a 325mm bladed heli.

http://www.helidirect.com/outrage-os7654t-201kg0054sec27g-760us-digital-tail-servo-p-11041.hdx

I dont have anything to try it on because my Beam has a 401 gyro/9257 servo on it and it doesnt support the narrow pulse width. It is too big for my JR Parkmite and not powerful enough for my 550-600 helis

I would put a suitable gyro to operate it on my Beam but I cant come close to outflying the 401 that is on there

I won the servo at the Chattanooga Fun Fly last month.

These days, why arent all tail servos capable of using 6V? Probably any new stuff will be able to use 6v minimum if not straight 2S lipo power. I ran a 9254 on 6V a few times but I couldnt tell any difference flying the heli but I wouldnt have to use voltage stepdowns on all of my helis. Even the JR 8900's I have are only rated at 4.8V. Ill be using Futaba BLS 251's at 6v regulated from now on. They work great.

The 9254 on my Outrage 550 woith a Spartan gyro has been 140°f after 6 minutes of flying in 85° ambient temp. This is measured right oner the motor , it is cooler on the other end of the servo case. It has been worrying me a little bit but Ive triple checked everything in the setup and there is no mechanical binding causing it. I am running the accelleration/decellartion profiles at 90% but I tried 80% and it didnt affect. I backed the gain down considerably and that did lower the temp a few degrees. I have decided to just keep flying it after swapping in another 9254 with the same results I also tried another voltage stepdown,

[osterizer]

Thanks, Jimmy. Ordered :). Hopefully I won't see the heat issue with the CY gyro. We talked with him a bit on Sunday, and he said that they had tested it with the 9254, so I expect it will work pretty well.

I have run the 9254 on 6V, by the way (regulated, not NiCd). It worked fine, but I didn't like the sounds coming out of it so I put a stepdown on. It probably would have been fine, but 5.1V works well.

[darkfa8]

I'm contemplating a Swift build that I want to be able to have enough power to practice 3D, swing 600mm blades and have as long a flight time as possible.

I'm not sure which Swift airframe to start with, though the 620se is the hotness, I'm not sure if it's $100 worth of hotness over the 550 with a 620 boom and belt... any insight?

As far as components:

Gyrobot 700
MKS 8910 tail servo (4.8v: .054/2.01 kg-cm)
MKS 9660 A+ cyclics (6v: .098/4.7 kg-cm)
Kontronik ESC or Scorpion ESC
Western Robotics BEC (Mini or High Current version)
Not sure on motor, but am looking at Neu, Scorpion, Xera
Lipo power (probably Zippy 30C): 6s
Futaba R617FS RX
Main blades: Mavrikk 600mm G5 Pro Wide Cord or Radix 600
Tail blades: Radix or equivalent

I'd use Custom Heli Products adapters to mount the MKS Mini servos. I think these servos will hold up in a model this light, save weight and overall cost rather than going with standard sized servos and still provide as good, if not better performance.

Input? :D

[Spidious]

I am having better luck with these Rhino batteries..http://www.hobbycity.com/UNITEDHOBBIES/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7300

[osterizer]

If you're going to do 600s on only 6S, you should be careful to keep the head speed and weight down. Let us know how those servos work out; I don't think I'd try anything smaller than the DS821s I have on the 16, myself, but if I'm overengineering it'd be good to know.

[darkfa8]

can the Swift 550 be modded to swing 600 blades for less than just buying the 620se kit?

[asw20rr]

I flew my Swift today. It just makes me :)

I wish I could get all my other heli's to fly as well and as consistently.

[osterizer]

I flew my Swift today. It just makes me :)

I wish I could get all my other heli's to fly as well and as consistently.

Just have to give that a smiley :).

[Gadget01]

can the Swift 550 be modded to swing 600 blades for less than just buying the 620se kit?Most certainly. This applies to both the Swift 16 and 550. These are all the parts needed:

CNE631 - Swift 620SE - Tail Drive Belt
CNE632 Swift 620SE tailboom
CNE634 - Century Rudder Control Rod Set for Swift 620

The tailbooms for all the Swift models are the same diameter with the same notch for the transmission box. Stock tail blades can be used, but I would recommend using 80mm to 85mm to handle the increased torque from swinging longer/heavier main blades.

[osterizer]

It worked great on the 16. Thanks for the tips, Gadget01 :).

There is some difference with the 620's boom vs the 16's, though- the holes in the tail end of the boom are different, so the tailbox has to be tighter to secure it. It's not a big deal in flight, but if it catches on something or you really slam it it can rotate. It's just something to be aware of, not a showstopper.

I didn't have a problem with the stock tail blades, btw- the added length of the boom gives them more leverage, and I thought they flew better with the 600s than the stock setup. I'm thinking of swapping them for some CY carbons, though, just because they fly so nicely on the Logo.

I tried some Mavrikk carbon 80mm, and I don't like them, really. They're very slow compared to the stock blades, but still smooth.