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djklein21
May 21, 2008, 12:11 PM
Winch Review- Hot Little Winch

Dave Coryell at Dave’s RC Hobbies (http://davesrchobbies.com/) contacted me to review a new product he was about to debut. The Little Hot Winch was his new product, and it turned out great.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showatt.php?attachmentid=1879534&stc=1


The Hot Little Winch is an all in one sailplane launching system. It comes fully assembled and ready to rock right out of the box. It features a new 6 volt motor, double solenoid, safety power switch, pedal, elevated turnaround, and a frame with wheels that includes an articulating battery cradle. Yeah, I know that is a long list, so let me break it down for you.

New 6 Volt Motor- The winch features a brand new 6 volt motor, not a 45 year old rebuilt FLS. The 6 volt motor features a 25 segment commutator (rather than 23 segment) for a smooth startup. This motor insures smooth control for small 2 meter and RES planes, yet powerful enough to launch even 5 meter cross county planes.


1400 feet of line- The drum is pre loaded with 1400 feet of 250 lb test, nylon braided line. At first inspection, the line looks small, but its high quality weave allows for a lightweight, yet strong line.


Double Solenoid Switch- The winch includes a very cleanly wired pair of 750 Cole Hersee solenoids. The pair of solenoids wired in series allows for circuit interruption, even in the event of a failure. This is a feature that should come with all winches, and is mandatory at many club fields.


Main Power Safety Switch- This safety feature is a must for most soaring clubs. For safety, the red key can be removed, disarming the winch. The safety switch is good for 150 amp continuous use, and 1000 amp intermittent.

Foot Pedal- This foot pedal is of solid construction, featuring a steel case and locking weatherproof connector. The 10 foot lead insures a comfortable launching position



Elevated turnaround- Ball bearing pulley mounted on a 4 foot steel stake. I cannot stress enough how beneficial it is to elevate your turnaround. This keeps the line from being pulled through any high spots in the field. Your line will launch better, and last longer. The kit also includes 2, 12” stakes and a tie rope for tying back and securing the turnaround.


Heavy Duty Steel Frame- one end mounted on wheels for ease of transportation, and an articulated battery cradle with a nylon mounting strap. The frame includes the 4 steel stakes for securing it into the ground.

Out of the Box-

The entire setup comes preassembled and ready for use in its heavy duty double walled cardboard box. It was delivered on my doorstep awaiting my arrival home from work. My neighbors were very curious to see what new toy had arrived. My thoughts echoed theirs as I unpacked the box, the winch is very heavy duty, and it shows. I was pretty impressed, at the level of assembly. Winches are a small production item, yet every part, including the wiring was well thought out and cleanly executed. The frame is built from steel tubing, painted blue. For ease of transportation, wheels are mounted to one side, and a battery cradle next to it. The kit even came with a nylon strap and buckle for securing your battery. The battery ends are pre finished, ready for attachment. The motor and drum come pre-fitted with 1400 feet of high quality nylon braided launch line. When I state that the winch was fully assembled, I mean it. I didn’t have to do anything before taking it to the field. In fact, I could have left it in the box until getting to the field.


Off to the Field-

When traveling with the winch, its only downside will be quickly reviled. It is a bit large. With a frame that carries all of the components at once, including the battery, it is a bit big to fit in the trunk of a sedan. This downside is quickly offset when you don’t have to carry anything at the field. It has wheels baby! The battery holder/carriage is really convenient if you have to carry your setup out to the field. The wheels serve double duty when you go to align your winch. First, stake on front corner of the winch and run out your line and turnaround. Drive the main turnaround into the ground, leaving the stake about 24 inches above ground level. Use the supplied line to secure the turnaround as figure ### depicts. Once the line is strung through the turnaround and pulled back to the winch, use the rear wheels to adjust the alignment. After you are satisfied with the alignment, drive the rest of the stakes through the winches frame.

Now it is time to fly. Most sailplane pilots are used to Ford long shaft based starter systems. These starters are no longer manufactured and the cores are becoming few and far between. This makes this system a poor choice for those looking to buy or build a new winch system. The Hot Little Winch is based on a brand new 6Volt motor. It provides very smooth power, making it much more comfortable to launch 2 meter and RES planes. The winch still has more than enough power to launch even the largest unlimited class thermal planes. I have had the opportunity to launch many planes on the unti, including my F3b Ceres and a friends new F3J Aspire, 3.7 meter thermal duration contest plane.

Others have used the winch too. For reviewing purposes, I tried the trial by fire method. I brought the HLW to one of the monthly TD contests held by the Torrey Pines Gulls. The winch performed flawlessly. Scott Condon commented that

it was a sweet compact little winch that had plenty of towing power. Light weight and transportable.
Scott Condon TPG


The launch performance was excellent for my 3.7 meter TD plane but even better was the well thought out design of the winch. The all in one cart solves the problem of having to lug heavy winch components out to the winch line, and the gimbaled battery tray is especially appreciated, no acid spills! Definitely a winner.
Mike Murphy TPG



After the using the winch all day for a TD contest, I had to give Dave a call and ask for the specifics of the launch line. It is thinner and lighter than most line you encounter at club contests. This gives it an advantage for launching smaller planes by reducing line weight and drag. Lighter line usually comes at the price of increased line breaks. This doesn’t seem to be the case though. The smoother motor and elevated turnaround has been easier on the line. Either that or it is just plain super line. I couldn’t tell you how well it holds a knot because after 50 plus launches I have yet to break the line once.

To quickly go over my feelings about this product, I formed a pros and cons list.
Pros-
• No assembly required
• Very complete
• Remarkably smooth motor
• Strong Steel Frame
• Cleanly Wired, using secure and well thought out connectors
• Heavy Duty Electronics, including main power safety switch and double redundant solenoid action
• Elevated Turnaround
• Includes stakes
• Heavy Duty foot switch in steel case
• Wheels on frame and battery cradle for roll away ease
• Very reasonable price for a complete system

Cons-
• Large frame, won’t fit in most mid sized sedan trunks
• Battery Cradle only measures 11” wide by 7 ¾” deep. Extra large deep cycle batteries won’t fit. Most automotive batteries will fit fine. I just set my extra large deep cycle battery to the side of the winch, rather than mounting it to the cradle.


As you can see, the con list is pretty short and minor. They cons are only by products of some of the winch’s advantages. All in all I really enjoy using the winch. In conclusion, the Hot Little Winch is a product I can wholly recommend. It is an all inclusive solution, arriving fully assembled. Add a car battery and a parachute and go flying.

wingbeat
May 21, 2008, 12:29 PM
Winch Review- Hot Little Winch

-snip-

Off to the Field-

-snip-

Now it is time to fly. - snip- The little big winch

oops. Hot little winch? Little Big winch?
Looks nice, too bad about the naming.

Soar_dude
May 21, 2008, 04:42 PM
Its a little spendy at 849 bucks you can put a Superskeg winch setup together for less then 700. the Superskeg winch can fit in almost any vehicle. One thing I would change on the design of this winch would be to make a telescoping handle to fit in smaller vehicles. I like the concept for this winch with the battery tray.

Soar Dude

rogerflies
May 22, 2008, 11:20 PM
How about posting a picture of the turnaround, please?

Roger

djklein21
May 22, 2008, 11:43 PM
Sorry, I'll post some

djklein21
May 22, 2008, 11:58 PM
Sorry for the poor pictures, it is evening here. I took some at the field, but can't find them. Let me know if there are any questions I can answer.

djklein21
May 23, 2008, 12:24 AM
Its a little spendy at 849 bucks you can put a Superskeg winch setup together for less then 700. the Superskeg winch can fit in almost any vehicle. One thing I would change on the design of this winch would be to make a telescoping handle to fit in smaller vehicles. I like the concept for this winch with the battery tray.

Soar Dude

Not to argue, I think the super skeg winch kit is a great product.

But this is a complete, fully assembled winch. The $850 price tag includes everything. A winch, fully assembled, and a turnaround, line ... all shipped completely assembled for $850. Not bad.

rogerflies
May 23, 2008, 07:12 AM
Here's my take on this development. Yeah, it's a usable winch system at a low price. It doesn't look like it has the quality built into the winches offered by Jim Brandon or the kits sold by superskeg. It's going to siphon off enough of the market to keep Jim from ever getting the volume he needs to get his motor supplier to lower the price of the motor. It'll cut into the sale of superskeg kits, which was a potential use of the motor that would increase the volume of its production.

I think it's like what has happened in the home-shop machine tool market. The market has been flooded with cheap imports to the point that all the companies in the US stopped making tools because they couldn't produce them in sufficient volume to warrant keeping the line going. Many former tool producers have just started buying the imports and putting their good name on them.

The import tools started out as reasonable quality since they were made in Taiwan. Production has shifted to mainland China, and the tools are junk for the most part. People buy them expecting to spend several weeks "tuning" them up so they work properly. Quality control is all over the map. Some may do well right out of the box, other's take many replacement parts to get into satisfactory running condition. Nobody that knows anything about tools expects them to last or perform like the old American iron.

If we were all willing to spend the money for a really good product, the volume would be there to keep the companies in business and the prices reasonable. When we get lured by the low price of a lower quality product, we eventually shut off the source of good stuff for everyone.

Roger

rdeis
May 23, 2008, 09:39 AM
It'll cut into the sale of superskeg kits, which was a potential use of the motor that would increase the volume of its production.


IIRC, the superskeg kit is intended to use motors from Injoy, who does a reasonable volume on those motors for dogsports. I can see it hurting sales of complete units (competition does that), but it won`t bother Injoy`s motor production.

rogerflies
May 23, 2008, 10:18 AM
Here's what I read at the Injoy website:

"I have a few good FLS motors left in stock and when they are gone...and if I cannot locate any good FLS motors in the mean time....I will not be making anymore lure machines using the FLS motor. I am currently having a new style motor manufactured with a 6 inch long shaft. These motors are not vehicle starter motors but are used in various commercial and industrial applications. One motor is rated at 2.5 HP and one at 4.8 HP...you can read more about these motors here."
here = http://www.injoy-1.com/catal_1.htm

It appears they are changing over to motors similar to what Jim is using. So where are the FLS type motors in the HLW coming from? Someone sent me one made in India to work on, and it was a piece of junk: No lube on the bushings, so they made horrible noise. Sparks from the commutator hitting the brush-holder at start-up. Pourous casting on the end cap.

It's hard to get excited about the HLW stuff when you're used to using an elevated no-snag self-aligning turnaround that looks like this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/winchman/000_1698.jpg

Roger

djklein21
May 25, 2008, 01:04 AM
rogerflies- I am sorry that I seem to have hit you in a sore spot. I am not sure how you draw parallels to china vs American products. The Hot Little Winch is made by Dave Coryell in the good ole USA. Also, what is more American than competition on a free market economy.

There is a place in the market for this winch system. Time will tell if it is a big enough market to keep the producer interested.


"It's hard to get excited about the HLW stuff when you're used to using an elevated no-snag self-aligning turnaround that looks like this:"

and I am sorry that the hot little winch doesn't get you excited either, it must not be high end enough for you. I understand. I just paid $2300 for a very high end F3b winch that makes all AMA TD style winches look silly. But then again I paid $2300 for a very nice piece of CNC artwork. That doesn't mean that there isn't a place for this type of unit. It is up for the individual to decide what he is looking for.

So lets keep things positive, it makes for a much better internet experience.

V1VrV2
May 26, 2008, 01:27 AM
Gentlemen,

Both of you have good points. The fact is that the market for sailplane winches is extremly limited. Those that would buy one of these mechanical marvels usually have been in to the R/C soaring bit for more than a short time and prefer not to be limited to the schedules of their local club to go out and fly.

The advent of LiPo batteries and high powered DC motors have almost made winches obsolete for a very large segment of the RC sailplane market. Why lug around 100+ pounds of launch gear and have the hassle of set-up and tear down and have the need for 800+ feet of clear launch space aligned with the prevailing wind? Not to even mention the cost of 500-2500 dollars for the equipment and the possibility of a battery acid spill?

Many of us are on a tight budget and simply cannot afford to pay more than a small amount for our launch equipment.

If anyone has ever made a Quality piece of equipment to launch sailplanes and tried to market it to the rest of us, they will quickly find out that the sales are slow and few. The longer someone stays in the game and the simpler they make it keeping the cost low with high quality, they will sell enough units to pay for their equipment and shop space, but they will never get rich off of it. Those that stay as suppliers do it for the passion of the hobby, not to get rich. If they can make a profit, that's great! Most will just come and go...

As buyers of the unique and wonderful variety of handcrafted equipment sometimes we have to have a sixth sense to realize that we had better buy some items when we see them as they will probably not be made for long. I have seen some incredible pieces of art here on RCG built by some of the finest craftsmen in the hobby and the will sometimes sell for a fraction of what they are really worth.

I for one hope to continue seeing the innovations evolve and occasionally come up for sale here on this forum. It's what keeps the rest of us supplied with new and affordable planes and equipment.

So here's to you, Mr. Sailplane Manufacturer...

You are truely one of the "Real Men Of Genius" !

Thermals,

V1VrV2

djklein21
May 26, 2008, 12:50 PM
So here's to you, Mr. Sailplane Manufacturer...

You are truely one of the "Real Men Of Genius" !

Thermals,

V1VrV2

Best post of the day

liukku
May 26, 2008, 09:37 PM
Hello
Can anyone explain how the American style winch works, please? I am only familar with FAI-F3B winches.
From the pictures I can see some kind of drumbrake, or? :confused:
Does the winch have oneway bearings?

/Ville

rogerflies
May 27, 2008, 06:38 AM
The winch doesn't have one-way bearings.

It does have a belt brake on one end of the drum. One end of the belt is fixed to the winch frame. The other end is attached to the arm that is pivoted on the winch frame. The other end of the arm has a bar or loop that rides on the line in front of the drum. Tension on the line raises the arm and releases the brake. When the line starts to get slack, the arm drops down, and the belt starts dragging on the drum to stop it from turning.

The arrangement works quite well, and it's fully automatic.

Some winches are a little different to suit the whims of their builders, but that description covers about 99% of the ones being used.

Roger

liukku
May 27, 2008, 10:31 AM
The winch doesn't have one-way bearings.

It does have a belt brake on one end of the drum. One end of the belt is fixed to the winch frame. The other end is attached to the arm that is pivoted on the winch frame. The other end of the arm has a bar or loop that rides on the line in front of the drum. Tension on the line raises the arm and releases the brake. When the line starts to get slack, the arm drops down, and the belt starts dragging on the drum to stop it from turning.

The arrangement works quite well, and it's fully automatic.

Some winches are a little different to suit the whims of their builders, but that description covers about 99% of the ones being used.

Roger

Thanks Roger for for the answer.
Can one "kite" the plane, in strong headwind for example?

/Ville

rogerflies
May 27, 2008, 11:06 AM
Yes, you can kite the plane. As long as there is tension on the line, the brake is "off", and the drum and armature can turn.

Roger

liukku
May 27, 2008, 11:50 AM
Ok, so it is the same as I turn off the brake on my winch, so that
the plane unwind the line and drift downwind. As I understand, you can not
come to a stand still and the plane kite uppwards more then downwind?
Please, be patient with me. ;-)

/Ville

rdeis
May 27, 2008, 12:39 PM
Ok, so it is the same as I turn off the brake on my winch, so that
the plane unwind the line and drift downwind.

Correct.

The brake stops the drum from turning when the line is slack. When the line is taught the drum will turn either direction.

It is not designed to keep the airplane from pulling line out, but is only meant to keep the line from getting tangled.

rogerflies
May 27, 2008, 01:01 PM
Actually, you can control the rate at which the line spools off the drum quite well with very short taps on the pedal. I'm sure we've all seen pilots do that. They let all the line off the drum to kite a floater up to maximum launch altitude.

Roger

liukku
May 27, 2008, 04:44 PM
Thanks again Roger and rdeis , now I fully learned :-)
Hope the kidnap of the thread is ok.

I think the above winch looks really good, and I belive it is praiseworthy too.
If it was available here in Sweden I would have bought one...for sure.

/Ville