Velox Revolution Orion Models 86" on 8s :)

[alchemique]

Hi Guys!

I've recently bought one of thease - http://orion-models.info/en/ - Velox 2,2m. The spec is as follows:
Technical parameters:

wingspan: 2200 mm | 86 "
length: 2065 mm | 81 "
wing area: 84 dm2| 9 sq ft
wing load: 71 g / dm2| 23.5 oz / sq ft
weight (*): 6000 g | 13.2 lb

I want to go with electric motor, firstly I was thinking about Hacker A60-18L on 12s , but after doing some calculations in motor-calc I looked at A60-18M on 10s setup. After seeing the new video of Gernot who is flying SebArt Katana on 6s I started thinking about 8s setup. :>
As you can see my airframe is quite light, with DA50 it comes at around 13,5 lb and empty weight is 6.2-6.4 lb.

I have already bought some servos, 8611 and 8711 for rudder. Want to go with CC 85/110 HV.

What dou you guys think about 8s setup? I want this model to a light floater with some serious 3d action possibilities. I don't need another totally overpowered and heavy plane.Just some reasonable power in extra light frame.
I was thinking about A60-16M on FP 8s 5000mAh . As my e-calc states with 24x12 it would give me more then 10kg of thrust and aprx. 7min of flying time. with 2200 watts.

And now some pics of this KIT:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/alchemiczek/mojesamoloty-404.jpg
Canopy and landing gear :
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/alchemiczek/mojesamoloty-419.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/alchemiczek/mojesamoloty-418.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/alchemiczek/mojesamoloty-428.jpg

hardware:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/alchemiczek/mojesamoloty-425.jpg

Me: ;)
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/alchemiczek/mojesamoloty-401.jpg

[mexico]

Which level did you buy - kit, ARC, ARF..?

[alchemique]

As you can see - this is KIT ;]

[mexico]

Obviously there must be a lot more sheets of parts if it is a kit. I thought that might simply be the hatch /canopy that needed assembly.

[thunder1]

Wow, that kit is fantastic! The construction looks perfect for electric. I can't imagine that it'd be strong enough for a banging gas motor, but it sure looks like it is.

What's your expected weight RTF? I wonder if there's any way to get these in the US?

[alchemique]

This airframe is both light and super strong. In Europe we are flying this velox with anything ranging from roto 35 to DA50 and ZDZ50. With DA50 it comes at about 6,2 kg what makes 13.6 lb. There was already one e-conversion on RC-network.de - guy is using hacker c-50xl and 10s packs and RTF weight is 5,7kg = 12.5 lb . My aim is 5.5 kg = 12 lb on 10s and maybe I would be able to reach 5kg=11lb on 8s :D

I guess there will be no problem in shipping it to US - just e-mail them and ask. They have great support. They have recently introduced a new 2,6m and 3m version.

[mexico]

12 lbs on an 86" plane is amazing. My 74" Yak weighs 12.5 lbs.

[thunder1]

Incredibly low weight! I fear the cost of shipping, though.

The 3DHS 87" Extra 300 SHP claims a weight range of 15.5-16.5 lbs. Cutting off 3+ pounds is awesome. That would open up the model to lower cost power systems and give incredible 3D performance at the same time.

I'll be checking out your build with great interest.

[mexico]

That is the difference between the weight of an ARF, even a very light ARF, and a kit. That's how Stevens Aero built such light planes. Professional ARF builders can do a much better job than I. Especially covering.

[alchemique]

It is a really nice kit. You need to have one ;) Hope it would fly as good as it looks.

I still don't now how would A60-18M work on 8s - do you have any experniece?;)

I guess that I might have some problems with CG, I will probably have to move both elevator servos and rudder servo from the tail and use pull-pull system. Hope it would be enough.

[feathermerchant]

I have some experience with that motor on 8S. You can turn an APCE 22X12W max. It flies a ~14-15lb plane OK but not wildly overpowered. I have all batts against the firewall. The Hacker mount works well.
I emailed them about a kit (like I need another...) but have not heard yet.
I imagine it uses a pull-pul rudder servo anyway.
If you are building a kit you can build the tail extra light.

[mexico]

How many amps/watts at 8s and 22x12?

[thunder1]

Let us know what they tell you if you don't mind. I'm interested and would appreciate not having to duplicate effort. Maybe a group buy could be arranged?

I have some experience with that motor on 8S. You can turn an APCE 22X12W max. It flies a ~14-15lb plane OK but not wildly overpowered. I have all batts against the firewall. The Hacker mount works well.
I emailed them about a kit (like I need another...) but have not heard yet.
I imagine it uses a pull-pul rudder servo anyway.
If you are building a kit you can build the tail extra light.

[BoneDoc]

Looks like a great kit.

[alchemique]

As you have felt in love with it, some more pics ;)

Wingcovers:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/alchemiczek/mojesamoloty-408.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/alchemiczek/mojesamoloty-411.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/alchemiczek/mojesamoloty-410.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/alchemiczek/mojesamoloty-423.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/alchemiczek/mojesamoloty-405.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/alchemiczek/mojesamoloty-420.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/alchemiczek/mojesamoloty-426.jpg

[thunder1]

Jaw-dropping. What material are the ribs and fuselage frame parts made out of?

[alchemique]

As far as I remeber (my buddy who is building this kit has it now) it is some kind of light-ply. Sth between ply and balsa- light and strong. The built hasn't started yet but as soon as it starts I will post some pictures.

feathermerchant, how many amp/watts do you get on 22x12? Can't you go with any bigger prop to get more torque?
What batts are you running on and what is the flying time?

[alchemique]

One more question:
Plettenberg xtra 30-10 - what do you think about this , I've heard that it is great F3A motor but mostly it is run on 10s. How would it go on 8s?

[feathermerchant]

On the 22X12W it was 65(?)A I flew 6-7min on 8S.

[BaldEagel]

One more question:
Plettenberg xtra 30-10 - what do you think about this , I've heard that it is great F3A motor but mostly it is run on 10s. How would it go on 8s?

The Pletenberg 30-10 motors are optimised for 10S, they will not go well on only 8S, outside the efficiency curve.

Mike

[txfly]

whats the amp rating of the hacker motor?

[appleflyer]

nice plane, vary cool looking.

[alchemique]

Hi Guys!

I've e-mailed AXI for some support concerning this plane and motor - they recommend axi 5330/18 on 8s 4500-5000 mAh 25-30C minimum. Putting data to drive calculator - on 22x8 mejzlik prop - it gives out 1700 W almost 10kg of static thrust and 72A.

That also seems quite nice :)

[mexico]

___

[txfly]

maybe a power 110 on 8s 3700 will do. 2K watts on a 19" is likely

[thunder1]

If you can get the weight below 12 lbs, 1700 watts would allow decent 3D flight. As was mentioned, it wouldn't be overpowered at that power level. I was thinking more along the lines of about 2000 watts myself.

[alchemique]

I was thinking more along the lines of about 2000 watts myself.

Me too. I want to reach at least 2KW. Going under 12lb would be a really tough job.

These poor calculations may be caused by some technical reasons :
1) I use Drive Calculator and eFlight eMotor Calculator and data differs a LOT! I use them both and on one it looks like overpowered beast to turn out as poor floater in 2nd program.:] I would possibly need to buy MotoCalc but they don't have mac versions:/ Which e-power calculator is the best BTW?
2) I always talk about out in-power which ~300-400 lower than in-power.

That is why I would probably need to buy motor and then test it throughly with eLoggers and play with prop and reg settings. . .

My assumption data is:
At least 2KW
At least 9kg=19lb of torque
Power plant under 2kg=4.4lb
Amp draw < 100A
30C ~5000 mAh packs

Hopefully I have at least 3 weeks to solve the problem of motor as the built hasn't started yet.

[txfly]

i really think youre gonna want a 10s setup. the 3dhs 85"s are lite and they recommend 10-12s

[alchemique]

I want to try different setups on this plane including a123 setup, but first I need to build this bird :>

Txfly, my main point is to keep weight as low as possible that is why I'm doing all I can to fly it on 8s. What is more, as far as I know, I can probalby be the first person to fly 50cc plane on 8s - that's a big challenge! If I would be able to fly it like this it would be great - if not - I will not cry and probalby move to 10s.;) 12s will be far to much for this Velox, don't forget that SHP Extra is 3-4 lbs heavier.

Some pictures found on the german forum :

THIS means light airframe ;)
http://www.rc-network.de/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=65420&d=1173815978

The way I want to mount motor:
http://www.rc-network.de/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=78869&d=1181341137

http://www.rc-network.de/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=78871&d=1181341137

http://www.rc-network.de/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=78873&d=1181341137

[mexico]

Doesn't have to be flown on even number of cells. If 8s is not enough try 9s.

[edible_engine]

10s would really give you the performance you want. i ran a 12lb model on the Hacker C50-14XL F3a special, 2.5kW and it was really perfect power. I think loosing 1kW would be too much, it would not pull out of the hover well.

Its great to get lower cell count, but high voltage and lower current and smaller packs is a better way to go IMO

Ian

[Daddymonkey]

[QUOTE=alchemique]

Some pictures found on the german forum :

The way I want to mount motor:
http://www.rc-network.de/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=78869&d=1181341137

This size stuff is way outside my experience but looking at teh pictures of your proposed motor mounting method ,I think you will need to triangulate between each pair of the four legs. The centre triangulation is neat but it doesn't tie to the firewall where teh legs do.

Best of luck whatever you decide to do.
Nigel

[feathermerchant]

I want to try different setups on this plane including a123 setup, but first I need to build this bird :>

Txfly, my main point is to keep weight as low as possible that is why I'm doing all I can to fly it on 8s. What is more, as far as I know, I can probalby be the first person to fly 50cc plane on 8s - that's a big challenge! If I would be able to fly it like this it would be great - if not - I will not cry and probalby move to 10s.;) 12s will be far to much for this Velox, don't forget that SHP Extra is 3-4 lbs heavier.



Sorry I beat you to it. 3DHS 85" Katana. Flies great on 8S.
See my Blog and also the thraed I started on it. I've flown it on 8S to 12S.
I should try 6S before someone else does it.

[alchemique]

Cell count is now the peripheral issue for me now. First I need a motor, and still don't know which would probably work the best. A60-18 or maybe this AXI 5330/18? Or maybe some other setups? Please help ;)

As far as it comes to the motor mount, the builder of it said that it was super stiff. It will turn out during the built if he was wrong or not. And the weight of it is only 130g=4,5 oz!

Sorry I beat you to it. 3DHS 85" Katana. Flies great on 8S.

Oh no! I'm leaving this hobby ;)

[feathermerchant]

Either of those motors will be fine. I'd go with the Hacker and it's mount because it has a fan built in and the mount supports the rear of the motor with a bearing. There are pics in my blog.

BTW I never got a response from the website. I guess they don't want to sell them in the US.

[alchemique]

Hi guys!

I have totally changed my way of thinking lately. As I have some 6s I fly in my other plane it would bed nonsense to buy new 8s packs, I decided to look for powerful but light 12s setup. I have Flight Power 3700 packs and would love to run it on NEU1515/2Y geared 6,7:1. Swinging 21-22 inch prop would give me 24+ lbs of thrust. But I'm not sure if it is really a good value for money. I have also a possibility to buy Hacker C50-12XL - but as far as I know it is rated 10s - am I right? Would it fly nicely on 12s?

feathermerchant, one more question - I've read your thread about big "K" - you said you were running it on 12s but I'm not sure on which motor- was it Hacker A60-18M - am I right? I would possibly with this one unless I find cheap NEU.

Help appreciated :)

[feathermerchant]

Actually I have run it on several motors using different props. The A60 is a great motor and has a great mount available. I'd recommend it with no qualms. I'm running the M because I got it cheap. The L is a little better for a 50cc plane. It can do 3000W with no problem. The 16L on a 22" prop and 12S is a good combo.
The 16M on 12S will require a 20X8 as I recall.

[txfly]

i bet after you fly 12s you will not even want to try 8s

[Jeffery]

I have a 1515/2Y 6.7 and 12S is what I had planned on running on it, so I agree with your choice of motor/packs.

The 1515/2Y is used in helicopters, so they do turn up used for a good price now and then and it's no trouble mounting the gearbox, but getting the gearbox to Poland might be a trick.

The C5014XL was the 10S motor and the C5012XL was the 8S motor (generally speaking, of course). I had a C5014XL but sold it and now prefer the Neu line by far. Good luck in finding a motor for your project!

[alchemique]

The 1515/2Y is used in helicopters, so they do turn up used for a good price now and then and it's no trouble mounting the gearbox, but getting the gearbox to Poland might be a trick.

It's not a trick if you have uncle in CA ;)
Even if I won't find used Neu I would probably buy a new one. If I get it via my uncle I pay no duty at all, and as $ is so poor now it is very, very affordable for us.


The build starts on monday as far as I know so will supply you with some photos in a week or two!

[alchemique]

Some new pictures Guys!

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/alchemiczek/DSC00771.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/alchemiczek/DSC00785.jpg

Not enough rudder I guess :[
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/alchemiczek/DSC00772.jpg

Interior:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/alchemiczek/DSC00773.jpg

Place for rudder-pull-pull
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/alchemiczek/DSC00778.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/alchemiczek/DSC00777.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/alchemiczek/DSC00783.jpg

Motor mount:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/alchemiczek/DSC00780.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/alchemiczek/DSC00780.jpg

Battery tray:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/alchemiczek/DSC00779.jpg

And now setup:
Neu 1515.2y/6,7gearbox
CC85HV
16s1p a123 packs
xoar 23x8
Lipo 1500 for reciver or 2s a123 1100 or maybe BEC but which one?
8611 and 8711 JR servos

The airframe weights about 7lb, i'm not sure if I would be able to get under 13lb :( Motor, prop, esc and batteries are 4,4lb.

[MarkF]

If you are interested I have a neu 1515 2y 6.7 that I just had serviced by Neu and they put all new gears in the gearbox so its like new now. I am now running a 1521 motor in my plane.

Mark

[txfly]

nice work! havent there been issue with the 85 esc on 16s a123?

[3Deranged]

You might want to rethink the ESC on 16s. I tried 14s2p A123's on a Spin 99 with not so good results(anybody got some hot dogs and marshmellows?) Castle has some newer SHV speed controllers that can handle 90v coming out sometime soon,so that might be your solution. Started an A123 thread for GS planes and seems like everyone was smoking ESC's left and right on higher cell counts. Just a heads up on that one...Nice work on the Velox :)

[alchemique]

Mark, I already have everything I need. I simply don't have enough time to install radio equipement.

As far as I now if you are carefull with voltage - 85HV can easily stand the load!

Pawel

[alchemique]

EDF - we've been writing at the same time.
I have seen your post about SHV, I'm waiting for them, but now I don't have any other reasonable possibility to controll this motor on 16s.

[3Deranged]

That has been a lot of peoples problem! This Kontronik ESC is a close one, but it weighs 250grams. Castle has yet to introduce the SHV's and I know there's a few guys who are dying to try them. Other than that it's JETI/Hacker 170/220's that are top of the heap so far.
http://www.espritmodel.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=5733 EDF - we've been writing at the same time.
I have seen your post about SHV, I'm waiting for them, but now I don't have any other reasonable possibility to controll this motor on 16s.

[JPHen]

Bringing up an old topic here, but I'm looking at getting an Orion 2.6 Velox to convert. From what I understand, I'm only looking at 20 lbs AUW.


Joe

[alchemique]

Hi, I should maiden it within a month or so , I wil share my experience then. I just can't find any time to put everything together :]