Port / Starboard

[785boats]

I know a lot of old Salts & Navy buffs out there would already know this, but I've often wondered why the sides of a boat are called Port & Starboard. So for the rest of us I found this.

The Vikings called the side of their ship its board, and they placed the steering oar, the "star" on the right side of the ship, thus that side became known as the "star board." It's been that way ever since. And, because the oar was in the right side, the ship was tied to the dock at the left side. This was known as the loading side or "larboard". Later, it was decided that "larboard" and "starboard" were too similar, especially when trying to be heard over the roar of a heavy sea, so the phrase became the "side at which you tied up to in port" or the "port" side.

Well, you've got to learn something new every day.
All the best.
Paul.

[toesup]

And the way to remember which color goes where when adding lights.. :confused:

Port (the drink) is red and has four letters, so does 'left' ;)

[785boats]

The way I remember it is..
Is there any 'red' 'port' 'left' ?
Yalumba Galway Pipe is my favorite.

[Shaun Hendricks]

I always remember it by thinking of a ship travelling at night down to Gebraltar from Europe. To the left would be the Port lights, to the right would be Star light.

To continue that analogy:
Port always has the Red Light district available to sailors. Green would be the right way to go to avoid shore obstacles...

So, whatever whatever us landlubbers do to remember the directions I guess... :D

[willhaney]

I think I can remember that....maybe. :D

[towboatjoe]

The way I always remembered is all the short words go together and all the long words go together.

port, left, red

starboard, right, green

[420TEE]

Then there's the old " red,right, returning" which gets very confusing when motoring around a bunch of small islands. When are you leaving and when returning? I'm thinking of the Thimble Islands in CT where several years ago a small CG launch ended up high and dry on a flat rock during an out going tide. Made the front page of the local paper. :rolleyes:

[Hoghappy]

but...is port still port, and starboard still starboard, when your tied up to port inverted? :p

Capt. Crash

[tsenecal]

My understanding of the origins for the words "Port" and "Starboard" are due to the way old old old ships were built.

because the steering board (rudder) hung out on one side of the boat, the boat was unable to tie up to port on that side (the steer board could get smashed against the dock), so one side of the boat was the side you tied to "port", and the other side was the "steerboard" side...

[patmat2350]

Then leave it to Englishmen to mispronounce everything... steerboard to starb'rd, loo-tenant to left-tenant, boat's-wain to bosun, forecastle to focsle... good Lord, forgive them, for they know not how to speak...


p.s.: al-U-minium???

[Shaun Hendricks]

Well, it is known as English, not "American" so I suppose they'd have grounds to tell us Yanks that WE don't know how to speak their language...

How's that for a bit of theatre... (<= pun intended!)

[Huntsman]

a loo min um


what about Mainwaring.....man er ring....

Magdeline......maud lin


and there's more....:p

[charlie eaton]

But we don't speak english,we speak american. Red right returning refers to the red bouys being on the starboard (right) side as you enter the river or canal and therefore on the port (left) side going down river or towards the mouth of it and into the Briny Deep.

[Shaun Hendricks]

I don't know about you charlie but I seem to recall my native language classes being titled "English" somthing or other.

I think there was an American lit course in there someplace but for all I know it covered past issues of Playboy... :D

[Brooks]

btw, red right returning only works in the US.... in Britain, it's green right returning, something that I saw when we pulled into Plymouth on the HMS Endeavour :-).

[yacht boy]

Brooks,
Thats very true but its not just in Britain, in fact if you look at it globally its you Americans that are the odd one out :o
There are two bouyage systems, IALA A and IALA B, rest of the world being A and North America B.
Curious really, the shapes are the same in both systems, just the colours are reversed. :D
I once heard the colours where changed during one of those little arguments we had way back when to try and confuse us.

PS. If you have not guessed allready I was born and bread across the pond :)

[mr.boat]

btw, red right returning only works in the US.... in Britain, it's green right returning, something that I saw when we pulled into Plymouth on the HMS Endeavour :-).


I assume that is where we get P.O.S.H. from

Port Out, Starboard Home.

[Stu :)]

I've always remembered it as-

The Red ship Left Port second Green Star to the Right
or
Bow forward with your Aft rear

Not nautical or naval, but I find it useful - Richard Of York Gives Battle In Vain

Oh and on the subject on being the odd one out... when are you yanks finally going to go metric! Inches, feet, miles, quarts, gallons, pounds, etc; come on it's like so last two centuries ago. :p

Stu :)

[mr.boat]

I've always remembered it as-

The Red ship Left Port second Green Star to the Right
or
Bow forward with your Aft rear

Not nautical or naval, but I find it useful - Richard Of York Gives Battle In Vain

Oh and on the subject on being the odd one out... when are you yanks finally going to go metric! Inches, feet, miles, quarts, gallons, pounds, etc; come on it's like so last two centuries ago. :p

Stu :)

Stu
Some of us here in the UK still use imperial measurements. I personnally disapprove of metric.
As the old saying goes "give them an inch, and they take a mile"
in metric give them a cm and they take a km does not sound as good.

[towboatjoe]

As for U.S. rivers, looking up stream, red is left bank and green is the right bank.

[realtimerecon]

I remember it by red,right,return.

[charlie eaton]

Some years ago the black ''Can'' bouys were changed to green so some people would not be confused by red and black as opposed to red and green.

[Shaun Hendricks]

Stu:

Officially, the US is metric, however, we Yanks are traditionalists. Don't complain, you aren't the one that has to have two sets of tools to work on even an 'American Made' car...

BTW, I learned the metric system in 6th grade. While I liked all the base 10 stuff, what they based the system on was just a foolish as the Imperial system. Might as well have picked a standard Imperial measurement and started from there. Okay, if you don't get it, imagine basing it on the 'inch'. Ten inches in a foot. You could have a 'Tens' or tenth of an inch. A 'Dred' or a hundredth of an inch. A 'Sand' or a thousandth of an inch... etc. Then you'd be starting from a known measurement that everyone is used to and it relates to another known measurement that everyone is used to. Instead... well, read the history of the metric system... :D

As far as colors being used to navigate, choosing Red and Green are moronic to begin with. Color blind people, a large portion of the population, cannot distinguish these colors. They should use, scary as it may seem, SYMBOLS. Imagine a big arrow: => INBOUND => or <= OUTBOUND <= Kinda hard to screw up that meaning even if you don't read whatever language is printed. We try so hard to integrate things for human handicaps yet color blind people are discriminated against every day often by the very safety systems that are supposed to protect them and nobody seems to care. What's up with that?

[Kmot]

Don't forget Whitworth and British Standard. :p


I am like Towboat Joe. Number of letters. Has always been easy for me to remember that way.

[patmat2350]

a loo min um

what about Mainwaring.....man er ring....

Magdeline......maud lin

and there's more....:p

And of course, most of English is just mispronounced German anyway!
Schiffe > ship
Hafen > haven (harbor)
Rechts > right
licht > light

[mr.boat]

And of course, most of English is just mispronounced German anyway!
Schiffe > ship
Hafen > haven (harbor)
Rechts > right
licht > light


Do you mean Harbour, same ending as colour

[CG Bob]

Some years ago the black ''Can'' bouys were changed to green so some people would not be confused by red and black as opposed to red and green.In the US, the change from black to green buoys was in the mide 1980's.

As far as colors being used to navigate, choosing Red and Green are moronic to begin with. Color blind people, a large portion of the population, cannot distinguish these colors. They should use, scary as it may seem, SYMBOLS. Imagine a big arrow: => INBOUND => or <= OUTBOUND <= Kinda hard to screw up that meaning even if you don't read whatever language is printed. The colors were based on what glass makers could make; red and green were two easy colors for early glass makers to produce. Red and green are not the only colors used for buoys; there are yellow, red and white, red-green-red, green-red-green, and other special buoys. The various IALA agencies DO use symbols - just not the arrows you recommend; these symbols have evolved over several hundred years of buoy placement and light houses. Here are some of the symbols: nun or conical topped buoys (red buoys in the USA and Canada); can topped buoys; buoys topped with one ball shape denote safe water areas; buoys with two ball shapes denote isolated danger. In areas where the water is shallow enough, the USCG places daymarks on pilings - traingular daymarks in lieu of red buoys and square daymarks in lieu of green buoys. There are also range markers to let you know that you're in the center of the channel. Also there are various light flashing sequences used for night.

[towboatjoe]

Stu:

As far as colors being used to navigate, choosing Red and Green are moronic to begin with. Color blind people, a large portion of the population, cannot distinguish these colors.

In reality the red buoys are nun buoys and the green buoys are can buoys, so color blind people can tell by the shape.

[charlie eaton]

In the US, the change from black to green buoys was in the mide 1980's.

The colors were based on what glass makers could make; red and green were two easy colors for early glass makers to produce. Red and green are not the only colors used for buoys; there are yellow, red and white, red-green-red, green-red-green, and other special buoys. The various IALA agencies DO use symbols - just not the arrows you recommend; these symbols have evolved over several hundred years of buoy placement and light houses. Here are some of the symbols: nun or conical topped buoys (red buoys in the USA and Canada); can topped buoys; buoys topped with one ball shape denote safe water areas; buoys with two ball shapes denote isolated danger. In areas where the water is shallow enough, the USCG places daymarks on pilings - traingular daymarks in lieu of red buoys and square daymarks in lieu of green buoys. There are also range markers to let you know that you're in the center of the channel. Also there are various light flashing sequences used for night.


SHEEEEEEEESSHH How to confuse an already confused issue! And don't forget the LIGHTHOUSES!!!!

[Shaun Hendricks]

Yeeeeaaaah....

Well, all things considered, a comprehensive, international effort needs to be made to standardize nautical symbology and navigation. All mariner types should be considered, from tanker captains to PWC drivers. Then, after everyone is happy and signs on, REMOVE all other stuff so the confusion level drops.

Too many systems in parallel causes issues, potentially life threatening issues.

Whatever system is developed must follow the KISS philosophy and modern technology. Keeping rules in place that date back to the days of a guy on a log with a palm frond for a paddle doesn't help anyone not on a log with a palm frond for a paddle.

[ziobrop]

Heres the cheat Sheets, Note that these are the B System, and al the Marks are all identical for the a system, except for the reversing of green and red when returning to port.

http://www.ziobrowski.net/sailing/navguide.gif

and in PDF:
http://www.ziobrowski.net/sailing/navguide.pdf

[charlie eaton]

OH Balderdash, You stay between the markers going up the river and you stay between the markers going down the river. It doesn't matter what color (excuse me colour) They can be purple with pink pokadots,JUST STAY BETWEEN THE BLASTED THINGS!!!!!!Sheeeesh!!!

[CG Bob]

Yeeeeaaaah....

Well, all things considered, a comprehensive, international effort needs to be made to standardize nautical symbology and navigation. All mariner types should be considered, from tanker captains to PWC drivers. Then, after everyone is happy and signs on, REMOVE all other stuff so the confusion level drops.

Too many systems in parallel causes issues, potentially life threatening issues.


That's already been done (okay about 98%) under a couple of different treaties and international laws. It realy doesn't matter which country publishes the chart - the symbols for buoys, channels, lighthouses, piers, etc., are similar in design. The various IALA and IMO authorities (the USCG (http://www.uscg.mil/top/missions/M_Safety.asp) in the USA) publish Notice to Mariners with updates on buoy locations, lighthouse that are extinguished, etc.; the mariner is responsible for updating their own charts based on the NTM. Nautical charts aren't exactly published by Rand McNally and aren't generally available from AAA or the corner gas station.

Your comment about all mariner types pertains to licensing and professional training, and not just following the NavRules (http://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/nav_rules.htm). The US tanker captain is licensed by the USCG, that PWC driver may or may not have a state issued automobile drivers license - only a few states have any requirement for a boat operators license. Here is a reference (http://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/Nasbla_Ref_Guide_6.pdf) on state boating laws. Some states set the minimum age to operate a PWC as young as 10 years old and attending a training session. The tanker captain on the other hand is usually a graduate of a maritime academy (4 yr college), with several years at sea as well as post graduate training.

As Charlie said, keep it between the buoys or marks and know which way to head inpassing or overtaking situations.

As a retired Coastie, I have to ask you what "other stuff" do you want removed to reduce the confussion level?
Change the buoy colors? Ain't going to happen right away, it took just over 5 years to change black buoys to green.
Change the shape of the buoys? Time tested deigns that have been working for a very long time. The daylight control that turns the buoy lights on at night was designed over 100 years ago, but has been modernized.
Change the sound characteristics of the buoys (bells, gongs, whistles)? Again time tested simple designs, Wave action causes tappers to hit the bell or gongs. Wave action works the whistle on whistle buoys.
Change the lights on the buoys? Originally lit by acetylene gas, and now batteries are charged by solar panels. The lights actually have a 6 bulb changer in them, so as a bulb burns out, a new one rotates into place to light up.
Lighthouses? Old technology that the USCG is slowly getting rid off. Lighthouses used to have a crew of two or three keepers, now they're all automated.
Foghorns? Mostly at the lighthouses; the old two tone diaphiones used to run on compressed air. New electronic beepers have a fog sensing unit to turn them on and off. Most communities don't want the "noise" generated by the fog signals. It's the rec boater who relies most on the sound signals and lighthouses.
Lightships? Already phased out in the USA. My first USCG duty station was the Columbia River Lightship, now a museum ship in Astoria, OR.
Sounding lead? Great for when you're electronic depth sounder quits.
Sextant? Best way to navigate by sun and stars when your GPS and Loran units quit.
Compass? You already know which way you're going. :)

[charlie eaton]

CGBOB, I have a soft spot between my ears for Lighthouses. Spent 2 years 5 months at Boon Island Light. 6 miles due east of the entrance bouy to York, Maine. A rock ledge 250' long and 150' wide at mean high tide,double that at low tide and the fishing was great.

[Shaun Hendricks]

CGBob:

Sure, let me address a couple of things you bring up...

If it's "Already been done", then why is there still confusion regarding it. See previous posts for areas of 'confusion'.

Training, yes, I agree there needs to be training but only the basic stuff should pertain to ALL mariners. Ziobrop has that cheat sheet there, but even then it's a bit intense. It also still uses red and green. That needs to go, but the idea of single sheet navigation pretty much has to stay.

Advanced stuff like passing rules and such really only applies to large ships that are going to need a commander that is course certified to run them so those can remain a bit more complex but still need to be as simple as possible. We still have big ships colliding with each other... go figure.

I never said any of this stuff needed to be done overnight, but it does need to be done. It's great that it's 98% complete but they are still relying on color codes to designate stuff- bad. Signs and symbols are all that is needed, high visibility, reflective white should be the color of choice. Oddly, the color thing is still a problem in the aviation industry as well. It's all easily fixed, but too many people complain that it will take too long and it's not traditional.

BTW, I'm not color blind, my father is. I am 'shade blind' which means if you have two colors that are almost identical next to each other I might not be able to distinguish between the two. I can tell red and green from each other just fine though.

Technology should always be leveraged to the advantage of the system, that is what I'm saying. A bulb rotator would probably be high tech in 1960, but today it's a silly concept. An LED array could generate more light for less power. The LED's would last years and years. How's this for your high tech 'bouy':

• Solar, Wind and Wave powered. 3x generators for constant power generation and backup.
• LED light array, only comes on when illumination levels drop below a predetermined point.
• Blue Laser flasher that tells you when you are approaching too close to the bouy or maybe going too fast.
• High pitch Piezo horn- directional when need be. This allows better audio isolation (bells sometimes are hard to localize- especially in fog).
• Onboard temperature, wind, pressure and sea state sensors for data collection.
• Full data communications network between the bouys to assess heath and transmit information, welcome to wireless.
• Quick disconnect systems between the bouy base and the electronic components. This would let a single boat maintain a large amount of bouys over a given schedule and let another boat respond to down ones.
• Quick sign mount system that lets you change any attached signs or symbols easily, or even mount an electronic sign that can give out a message programmed in from the data network.
• Paint them all bright white, and let the symbols on the signs tell you what they are there for. Whatever their design, they need to stand out and say 'look at me!' The further out from shore, the larger they should be! Something like the white 'special bouys' in ziobrop's cheat sheet would do nicely. In fact, that whole section should what bouys should look like and you don't need the colors. The only time I'd like to see a 'reflective yellow' bouy is for the "Isolated Hazard" kind of bouy - it would scream "AVOID ME!"

You aren't talking major technology here. This is less computing horsepower than an old Palm Pilot used. You could probably buy the puppies in massive bulk and get them for dirt cheap from Taiwan.

I'm with Charlie on the stay between the things, it needs to be that easy, but I'm more concerned about not being able to even see them or interpret what they mean. In the end, anything to make navigation safer and simpler. Even a non-mariner should be able to figure it out... I'd never be able to figure out the Cardinal Bouys. They should just have a giant N, S, E, W on them or an arrow pointing the right direction for the clear water.

[ziobrop]

I'd never be able to figure out the Cardinal Bouys. They should just have a giant N, S, E, W on them or an arrow pointing the right direction for the clear water.

Ah But they do, North Arrows Point Up, South Arrows point down, East they point away, forming an E using the center and left sides) and west they point at each other pinching the W in.

For what its worth, by 2009 all boaters will need to be licenced in Canada You have to pass a test, and it does include Buoy questions.

You can see the study material here: http://www.tc.gc.ca/MarineSafety/TP/TP511/menu.htm

[CG Bob]

Shaun,

According to USCG statistics, there are more small boats involved in accidents than the larger ships with licensed and documented crews. The larger ships get more media attention because of their size, and the damage they do. What is the minimum level of training you think the weekend boater needs? They should be aware of the NavRules; as a sailboat DOES NOT always have the right of way.
RUle 18. A sailing vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:
a vessel not under command;
a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver;
a vessel engaged in fishing.

Cruise down your street or the nearest interstate, and you'll find plenty of color codes: red and green stop lights; red and white signs for stop or yield; yellow or orange warning signs. Buoys, like road signs, are a "dumb" or low tech system. The largest buoys, 9 ft diameter x 32 feet tall, weigh close to 10 tons without an anchor or anchor chain. The smaller lighted buoys are 3.5 feet in diameter and 8 feet high. Each USCG buoy tender is responsible for several hundred buoys in their area; each buoy is visited at least once a year. The buoys are and their systems are designed to be on station for 5 years before being replaced.

Blue laser flasher to let you know that you're too close: Won't work well with a tug towing a barge on a 1000 foot hawser. When I ran the USCG Buoy Yard in NYC, I saw several 8 x 26 buoys decpaitated by the tow wire of a tug and barge. Think of a truck taking out a sign on the highway.

Directional piezo horn - won't work very well as buoys do swing around their anchored position (think control line airplane) due to the tide, currents, and wind. Lets assume that the horns direction is set for vessels coming up the channel, with the tide flowing in. When the tide shifts, the horn is now blowing in the opposite direction, so the mariner won't hear it until he passes the buoy.

NOAA already has hundreds of buoys with sensors providing wind speed and direction, air and water temperature, cloud cover, etc. Most of the NOAA buoys have two way comms with the NWS.

Bright white? That will fade fairly quick with bird droppings to a dull white. Bird springs do help some in keeping the birds off.

The first USCG units to get GPS systems were not the large cutters doing law enefoecemen and SAR; but the black hulled buoy tenders.

Learn the trade rather than the tricks of the trade.

[herrmill]

How did a simple port/starboard origin lesson lead to a debate on buoys? After reading this at 0500, I think I need a drink... ;)

Pat, you forgot La-BORE-a-tory

Chuck

[pimp_squeak]

Ah But they do, North Arrows Point Up, South Arrows point down, East they point away, forming an E using the center and left sides) and west they point at each other pinching the W in.

For what its worth, by 2009 all boaters will need to be licenced in Canada You have to pass a test, and it does include Buoy questions.

You can see the study material here: http://www.tc.gc.ca/MarineSafety/TP/TP511/menu.htm

Passed my test years ago, but the card was never mailed to me. I still have my temporary certification however. Do you know how I can get a copy of the card mailed to me?

[CG Bob]

How did a simple port/starboard origin lesson lead to a debate on buoys? After reading this at 0500, I think I need a drink... ;)

Pat, you forgot La-BORE-a-tory

Chuck

See Shaun's post #23
As far as colors being used to navigate, choosing Red and Green are moronic to begin with.

[Aerominded]

Mmmmm, beer...

[Shaun Hendricks]

Since I'm feeling like this is turning into a divergent discussion that cannot be recified with text, I'm going to drop it. I am wrong, there is no way to make the current systems better.

[ziobrop]

Passed my test years ago, but the card was never mailed to me. I still have my temporary certification however. Do you know how I can get a copy of the card mailed to me?

Find the Website of the Organization that you passed the test with. The CYA and CPS have a replace card thing online.

[785boats]

Well I didn't expect all this when I posted the origins of the words port & starboard. It's made fascinating reading. I've learnt a lot, unlearnt some, relearnt some, then learnt some more. It seems it's not all black & white, or even red & green any more. Brilliant conversation you guys.
Best regards.
Paul.

[expat flyer]

I assume that is where we get P.O.S.H. from

Port Out, Starboard Home.

Supposedly printed on tickets of passengers on P&O (Peninsula and Orient) passenger vessels that travelled between UK and India in the days of the Raj. Britain and India are both in the northern hemisphere so the port (left-hand side) berths were mostly in the shade when travelling out (easterly) and the starboard ones when coming back.

P&O deny this explanation - no such tickets were ever printed. The story was probably created to demonstrate the meaning of the word, just for fun.

The real origin of POSH is not known but it has been used to mean swanky since the 1890's.

BTW the French think the IALA B system is only used in the Caribbean while many Americans think the IALA A system is only used in Ireland!

IALA-Region A Buoyage System is used in Europe, the Mediterranean, the Western Pacific (except for Korea, Japan and the Philippines), the Indian Ocean, and the coasts of Africa.

IALA-Region B is North and South America, Korea, Japan and the Philippines.

Jerry

[pimp_squeak]

Find the Website of the Organization that you passed the test with. The CYA and CPS have a replace card thing online.

It was through cadets, I've called the officer who administered my test and he said he'd look into it, but nothing's happened. I'm assuming I'm pretty much SOL, but there was always a ray of hope.

[ziobrop]

It was through cadets, I've called the officer who administered my test and he said he'd look into it, but nothing's happened. I'm assuming I'm pretty much SOL, but there was always a ray of hope.

check the form you have - typically it will be from whoever sanctioned the test.. You could also try contacting Service Canada..

[keith S]

My solution--unless you spend alot of time on the water, don't bother to try and change things. For the most part the professionals have the rules that they all agree upon for their areas of intrest. Personal watercraft folks just need to follow the rules and learn them before venturing out onto the water. When it comes to a model following the nav indicators, especially at a regatta, follow the map and directions and you should be just fine.