Can I get opinions on the quality of Great Power's Deluxe Power 280 cabin cruiser ?

[gatorgarfish]

I've heard some good things about it's performance, but it's not a proven company that makes it (not to my knowledge). It's a RTR and costs $ 170.00.

It's seems to be hardly known of here in the US; like the similar Hobby Engine St. Tropez, it is more popular in the UK, so far. I'll bet there are American rc boaters here who do know about it, however ! Here are where the hardcore r/c'ers are found. :cool:

Anyway, it comes out of England by CML Distributors. I've found but one US dealer (online) that carries it, for mail order purchasers...and they are also unfamiliar to me.

Great Power makes other RC products--mostly cars, I think. The Power Deluxe 280 isn't fabulous looking, but it is a rather big (approx. 3 ft. long) and has some good get-up and-go for an electric boat. Bulky boats pushing a fat wake look good on the water, IMO. The 500-type motor is water cooled. The decals on it ought to go; it's too showy there. It needs to be more, just plain, white.

[der kapitan]

Great Power? With a name like that, it sounds like something out of China---.

[pkboo]

Karl, marketing wise they are still trying and learning ;) With a name like that I'ld rather go with the pharmaceuticals, you know the blue wonderpill Viagra :D

[Kmot]

gatorfish: I suggest you stop looking at those crappy plastic toy boats and instead look at the products from Aquacraft and Proboat. Both these brands are true hobby class, have quality electronics, and are sold and supported with spare parts and technical support here in the US.

[pompebled]

gatorgarfish, google came up empty on the boat, do you have a link, perhaps?

Regards, Jan.

[der kapitan]

Karl, marketing wise they are still trying and learning ;) With a name like that I'ld rather go with the pharmaceuticals, you know the blue wonderpill Viagra :D
Eugene, that isn't made in China---. ;)

It's made in, would you believe, Ireland---? :D

[charlie eaton]

Yo! A link would be nice as would pictures of it. Laddie, if it's Irish it's got to be good!!!!!

[der kapitan]

Yo! A link would be nice as would pictures of it. Laddie, if it's Irish it's got to be good!!!!!
No Charlie, the boat isn't made in Ireland, the Viagara is---. ;)

[Greg_Vincent]

Great Power boats are sold by MRC (http://www.modelrec.com/rc-products/great-power-boats.asp) and Fun RC Boats (http://www.funrcboats.com/category.aspx?categoryID=164), although Fun RC Boats doesn't seem to have the cruiser model any more.

I know the Aquacraft/Proboat boats are preferred for RTR, but they do not have a boat in this style. If you don't want to build a kit the options are limited.

Gar, I thought you were getting the St. Tropez, which seems like a step up from the GP boat (the GP boats don't have reverse, for instance).

Also check out the Atlas 540 by Academy, also sold by MRC. It's a semi-kit that lets you use your own electronics.

[pkboo]

That's indeed is something DK, set us on the wrong foot eh? And Charlie is really proud of being from Irish descendancy, ain't he :D

No Charlie, the boat isn't made in Ireland, the Viagara is---. ;)

[der kapitan]

That's indeed is something DK, set us on the wrong foot eh? And Charlie is really proud of being from Irish descendancy, ain't he :D
Yes Eugene, we can assume that Charlie is a proud Irishman---. :)

And the blue pill will KEEP him standing---. :D

[pompebled]

We're getting a bit OT aren't we...?

@gatorgarfish: the boat itself is a matter of taste and will run nicely, the battery is scaring me; with 8 cells the motor will absolutely need to be watercooled or it won't last long.
The radio looks like junk, with only four available frequencies it must be rather broadband..., most likely every "proper" transmitter will cancel out/override your signal when you get too close.

The charger is a 14h charger, a better one is needed if you want to do more than one run a day.

Not worth your money.

Regards, Jan.

[Shaun Hendricks]

The video was fairly clear. The boat scoots pretty well. Certainly better than the pure 'toy' stuff.

Actually, we have no idea what the electronics are inside that waterproof box so I'd refrain from judgement on that.

Jan is right with the frequency controls, it looks like the cut corners on the transmitter/receiver end. Did you notice that there were TWO sets of batteries in the boat? Both a AA set for the receiver and the 9.6v driver for the motor. This is a double edged sword. It means if you drain main power too low, you can probably still get the boat back to shore even on a weak main battery. The drawback is that you will have to change out your receiver pack batteries all the time as you can't trust when they will fail and they could fail independent of the main pack...

The boat also needs some trim tabs. They were very nose high. With some tabs it would pick the back end up on plane better.

This appears to be a higher grade 'toy' style boat and will likely last you a while with the bigger 500 series motor, but it is not competition for a true hobby grade boat with more standardized gear.

There are better deals out there for running fast and looking good. I'd stick with the better products if I were looking for good out of the box performance.

[Greg_Vincent]

One other comment: You have to be a very mature and reliable person to have one of these boats. After all, with Great Power comes great responsibility. :D

[Kmot]

I wager that the Great Power brand is just another plastic toy boat mfg'd in ROC, probably in the same factory that makes NQD, Syma, Nikko, etc.

Anyone see any similarities? In the radar bars? The boat stands? The packaging? The pseudo propo radio?

[charlie eaton]

Yes Eugene, we can assume that Charlie is a proud Irishman---. :)

And the blue pill will KEEP him standing---. :D

I may have gray hair but I don't need no blue pill,just another boat.yuk,yuk,yuk! The Irish gave the bagpipes to the Scots and they still don't get the joke.
On a more serious note Kmot is right,it's a toy from China and only if you want to spend to much for it and convert it over to a good radio and power system should you invest in it. Many of us have done just that but IO don't think in the long run it's worth it. Get a good boat with a good system in it. It will last allot longer and give you allot of pleasure playing with it.

[pkboo]

Jan, you're right, just having a little fun on behalf of Charlie :D No hijacking, pun definitely intended ;) Boo

[der kapitan]

One other comment: You have to be a very mature and reliable person to have one of these boats. After all, with Great Power comes great responsibility. :D
Sheesh, Greg---. :eek:

[pusar]

:) :) :) :)

[gatorgarfish]

gatorfish: I suggest you stop looking at those crappy plastic toy boats and instead look at the products from Aquacraft and Proboat. Both these brands are true hobby class, have quality electronics, and are sold and supported with spare parts and technical support here in the US.I wanted a cabin cruiser, and neither Aquacraft or Proboat make one. This was the best one I saw in another make. If it is crap, then it is $170 of it. The Hobby Engine St. Tropez sold for the same; it is certainly Chinese and it is all plastic too. I would go with the St. Tropez, but it is no longer available at the one online dealer that did carry it, and the second source: rcscalemodels is asking an additional $ 30.00 for it. I am just at a point of indecision re. a cabin cruiser, that's all; not focusing on "crappy toy boats." I have the Aquacraft Bristol Bay and the Aquacraft Atlantic Tugboat. I had to replace both models' ESCs, because they would not allow for any reverse throttle. None. That cost me $ 80 right out of the box, here in the US.

[gatorgarfish]

I was asked to give some links. Greg Vincent has already given the sole US online seller: Model Rectifier Corporation.

A man has posted a video of the Power Deluxe 280: it's at: http.//www.rc-stuff.co/uk under RC-Stuff: Videos..."CML Power Boat on a pond not far from me" That's found as the second to the last one, in the short selection there.

On YouTube there's a short video clip of the boat, at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdQObVxtT_I

He gives it high praise, FWIW. This same user, named Ste8768, also posts a video of the St. Tropez 'in action' as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dAvgDMoq0E


A note: the only other cabin cruiser (Kmot posted it's pic) that is comparable to these two boats is really not ! I'm talking about the one Nikko model, which sells for about $ 90.00. And, the Atlantio IS assuredly a piece of crap. Even I know this ! Sorry, but mere appearances here don't mean alot.

[Kmot]

Well, I hope you enjoy your $170-$200 plastic toy Chinese boat. :p

[charlie eaton]

gatorgarfish,

Toys-R-Us has a boat for about $70.00 that's about 25'' long. It's a modern cabin cruiser and is big enough to be easy to convert to a good 2 channel radio system. For about $100.00 you can get a good radio and ESC. and have a fine running boat using the original drive train. Just make sure that the stuffing box stay's well lubricated.

[der kapitan]

Well, I hope you enjoy your $170-$200 plastic toy Chinese boat. :p
But---but---but---Tom, with it, you get GREAT POWER---. :rolleyes:

Hee hee---. :D

[Shaun Hendricks]

I can't agree with Kmot here.

There is a propensity to judge a boat by its cover. That boat (to me) looks to have a bit of a 'nicer' cover on it than most and they avoid the trap of too much molded on 'detail'. Toys tend to have that yukky detail. Also, the radar bridge appears to be added on, in the other toys it's apparently molded on.

I'm not saying this couldn't be crap, but just from the pictures and the movies, I can't tell WHAT its quality level is. It does move well and has a large external rudder.

It could be a $60 toy (Atlantio) in diguise of $160. It could also be a mid-grade range between a toy and a full hobby boat. That's about the right price range for it.

So, whatever you do Gatorgarfish, you are rolling the dice- it could be good, it could be crap. It's your money, you make the roll. If you buy it, let us know what the actual outcome is... :D

[Kmot]

Here is a $30 Atlantio by NQD on its maiden voyage:

http://media.putfile.com/Atlantio-Knockoff

Seems to me to be the same performance as the $170 GREAT POWER in the above video. At the time I thought it was an okay boat. But its electronics lasted three runs on the stock 1500 NiCd battery it came with.

Okay, I was just trying to help steer you away from wasting your money on this crap because I have already done so. But I paid $30, not $170! Three of these cheap boats I have purchased. This morning, all three went to the dump in the City of LA garbage trucks.

I have also purchased a 1/14 scale big rig and tankter trailer; a 1/3 scale Suzuki GSXR; and a 1/6 scale Dodge Nascar Truck. The Suzuki and the Dodge truck went to the dump as well. Because they are garbage!

The big rig I converted to full hobby grade electronics and did lots and lots more upgrades to it as well. I was able to sell it for a whopping $100 RTR which was less than the cost of the upgraded electronics and radio.

I have had a belly full of this cheap crap being dumped on the hobby and some of it at inflated prices by greedy vendors. None of it is worth the time and trouble, let alone the money, to upgrade to hobby class because the truth is it will never be hobby class.

This is why I have strong opinions about this garbage.

But, I am finished giving my advice here.

For the record, I have SIX Aquacraft boats and not one has ever had a bad ESC out of the box. The ones with reverse had low power reverse. But that is not a defect, it is by design. 99% of the time a model boat does not need reverse anyway. And IIRC, you chose to not send the item back for warranty replacement. You chose to spend the additional money on replacement ESC's.

So, I am sorry if I ruffled your feathers. But if you ask for opinions, expect to get some.

[gatorgarfish]

Here is a $30 Atlantio by NQD on its maiden voyage:

http://media.putfile.com/Atlantio-Knockoff

Seems to me to be the same performance as the $170 GREAT POWER in the above video. At the time I thought it was an okay boat. But its electronics lasted three runs on the stock 1500 NiCd battery it came with.

Okay, I was just trying to help steer you away from wasting your money on this crap because I have already done so. But I paid $30, not $170! Three of these cheap boats I have purchased. This morning, all three went to the dump in the City of LA garbage trucks.

I have also purchased a 1/14 scale big rig and tankter trailer; a 1/3 scale Suzuki GSXR; and a 1/6 scale Dodge Nascar Truck. The Suzuki and the Dodge truck went to the dump as well. Because they are garbage!

The big rig I converted to full hobby grade electronics and did lots and lots more upgrades to it as well. I was able to sell it for a whopping $100 RTR which was less than the cost of the upgraded electronics and radio.

I have had a belly full of this cheap crap being dumped on the hobby and some of it at inflated prices by greedy vendors. None of it is worth the time and trouble, let alone the money, to upgrade to hobby class because the truth is it will never be hobby class.

This is why I have strong opinions about this garbage.

But, I am finished giving my advice here.

For the record, I have SIX Aquacraft boats and not one has ever had a bad ESC out of the box. The ones with reverse had low power reverse. But that is not a defect, it is by design. 99% of the time a model boat does not need reverse anyway. And IIRC, you chose to not send the item back for warranty replacement. You chose to spend the additional money on replacement ESC's.

So, I am sorry if I ruffled your feathers. But if you ask for opinions, expect to get some.I think it was obvious to me when you compared the Atlantio to the St. Tropez in my last thread that you were being too quick to dump on the whole host of plastic chinese toy boats out there. But the St. Tropez turns out to be hobby quality afterall. You knew then that it was a Graupner design. Still, I can understand your frustration, having been there and done that. But, come on; all the models you pictured again are not hobbyist boats at all and you knew that ! Why did you do it ? Yes, I asked for opinions, and last time you came through for me with good advice, including which ESCs would nicely replace the stock Aquacraft ESCs (2) of mine that did fail--yep, right out of the box. Those Proboat ESCs work like a charm, BTW. Both the tug and Bristol Bay move in reverse quite well.

Sure; I did elect not to rebox and send those two brand new boats back to Hobbico for warranty servicing. What did that comment have to do with anything ? My new King's Ransom did have an operable ESC. Do you not believe that I had two out of three as duds, from Aquacraft ?

Kmot, I both thanked you and complimented you before. I know that you do know your stuff. I do trust your opinion. I hear you that you are done giving advice. If you did change your mind, however, is there a RTR cabin cruiser that you would give a thumbs up to ? If not, I might screw up and pay $170 on what turns out to be, in retrospect, a crap boat that was worth only half that. It happens. MRC is the only dealer giving a price on this model; for all I know they could be stiffing the US market !

I'm brand new to the hobby and I will go with the St. Tropez if this boat is inferior [to it]. They did both cost the same: $170.00. I just hated to now spend $30 more, having lost Hobbytron as a seller. I know what's the better, but, for ex., I just can't afford a $400.00 Proboat PT-109 or their $400.00 Coast Guard Cutter. The Thunder Tiger scale boats (St. Catherine fishing..., for one) are definitely not worth $280 a pop.

My wife is on the warpath over the ones I have, so I have to make a modest cabin cruiser the fourth of my fleet. I'd paint that Power Deluxe with white appliance paint ...and put some ballast in it's nose (like I have in my Bristol Bay). I am only interested in scale model boats.

[gatorgarfish]

But---but---but---Tom, with it, you get GREAT POWER---. :rolleyes:

Hee hee---. :DAnd with Proboat you run with the professionals. And with Aquacraft you get a craft that runs...in water. I ought to move on to other well known companies that, upon closer inspection, have sort of silly brand names. Will this time be the last that you "hee hee" at this co.'s ability to give it's customers great power ?

And Captain, almost to the last one of these boats; they are made in China. So, big deal--not !

Hobby Engine is headquartered in Hong Kong; guess where everything they make is made. An experienced and respected full-blown kit building member of this forum gave the Hobby Engine St. Tropez his recommendation in a PM to me. You aren't an r/c snob, are you ? I hope you don't tend to get rolling eyes whenever a RTR is talked about. Do you have a boat that you'd like to recommend here ?

[der kapitan]

And with Proboat you run with the professionals. And with Aquacraft you get a craft that runs...in water. I ought to move on to other well known companies that, upon closer inspection, have sort of silly brand names. Will this time be the last that you "hee hee" at this co.'s ability to give it's customers great power ?
And Captain, almost to the last one of these boats; they are made in China. So, big deal--not !
Hobby Engine is headquartered in Hong Kong; guess where everything they make is made. An experienced and respected full-blown kit building member of this forum gave the Hobby Engine St. Tropez his recommendation in a PM to me. You aren't an r/c snob, are you ? I hope you don't tend to get rolling eyes whenever a RTR is talked about. Do you have a boat that you'd like to recommend here ?

Well, Gator, I tend to agree with Kmot on the quality of many of these Chinese imports, as he has fiddled around trying to upgrade a number of them over the past several years. It appears that he's finally fed up with trying to make silk purses out of sows' ears---. ;)

As for myself, I design and build my boats from the ground up, fiberglass hulls, running gear and all, buying only the props and radio gear. :D

If you consider me to be an R/C snob because I don't waste my time on cheap imported toys, then I guess I am---. :p

[Frank Hurd]

Why not invest in a Lindberg Sport Fisherman or a Constellation? Both are nice cabin cruisers and then buy yourself some nice quality running gear for it.
As for der Kapitan being a snob, no way! He talks to me!
Frank

[der kapitan]

Why not invest in a Lindberg Sport Fisherman or a Constellation? Both are nice cabin cruisers and then buy yourself some nice quality running gear for it.
As for der Kapitan being a snob, no way! He talks to me!
Frank
Gee Frank, you've been pretty quiet lately, but then you have that job keeping you busy. :)

I was beginning to worry that maybe one of those alligators you have living in the back '40 got you---. :eek:

So I guess all's well? :D

[charlie eaton]

So Gator you asked for a n opinion on the cheaper rtr's. You now have more than a few. Ultimately the choise is yours. Some have had good luck with cheaper RTR'S and some have not. I have had several ''toy'' type boats,had fun with them, but they were only good for one or two seasons.

[Greg_Vincent]

Gatorgarfish, if you are willing to do some buildling, you might consider the Atlas 540. You will have to supply your own radio and battery (and ESC if you refuse to use the supplied MSC). The hull is ABS plastic instead of the more toy-like styrene. The supplied deck hardware is gold but it can be painted silver or not used at all. You should be able to build it for around $200 if you use the provided speed controller. The only question would be if you like the way it looks. The picture on MRC is not a very good one.

Here is a review (http://modelmarvels.com/atlas%20review.htm ) of the buildup of the boat. And here is a thread (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6316.0) from Model Boat Mayhem where I asked someone who owns this boat their opinion of it, with a nice photo of it in action. Unfortunately, finances and family have kept me from actually moving ahead with this.

Attached is a photo of the completed boat from the review (also found in the gallery section of ModelMarvels.com).

Now if Aquacraft or Proboat would just step up and make an RTR cruiser...

[gatorgarfish]

Why not invest in a Lindberg Sport Fisherman or a Constellation? Both are nice cabin cruisers and then buy yourself some nice quality running gear for it.
As for der Kapitan being a snob, no way! He talks to me!
FrankI'm so new to this hobby that I am likely not ready to do that yet. Are they ARRs, or kits ? I'll look into them. Thanks.

[gatorgarfish]

Well, Gator, I tend to agree with Kmot on the quality of many of these Chinese imports, as he has fiddled around trying to upgrade a number of them over the past several years. It appears that he's finally fed up with trying to make silk purses out of sows' ears---. ;)

As for myself, I design and build my boats from the ground up, fiberglass hulls, running gear and all, buying only the props and radio gear. :D

If you consider me to be an R/C snob because I don't waste my time on cheap imported toys, then I guess I am---. :pBut do you think the Power Deluxe 280 is just another cheap Chinese toy--a sow's ear of a RTR ? If so, why ? How about the Hobby Engine St. Tropez ? It's straight from a Graupner design and also goes for a couple hundered dollars. Should one (or both) be summarily lumped in with the several ones Kmot pictured ? The best one was a $ 90 Nikko. It's their most expensive boat. It is not even Bristol Bay level. And Kmot's featured boat goes for 30 DOLLARS.

BTW, I didn't ask if you were a r/c snob because you might be an accomplished kit builder ! Hello ? It has to do with your repeated disdainful remarks on just the company's name here. A snob might turn up his nose at RTRs that seem to exceed toy grade; like one IDed specifically in a thead's OP, which maybe rises well enough above the many Syma types out there, and rather might actually be worth a newb's time and money. See, that is what I am trying to find out about this particular boat. You don't have an informed opinion on it yet (do you ?); just want to hee hee about the term "great power."

[gatorgarfish]

So Gator you asked for a n opinion on the cheaper rtr's. You now have more than a few. Ultimately the choise is yours. Some have had good luck with cheaper RTR'S and some have not. I have had several ''toy'' type boats,had fun with them, but they were only good for one or two seasons.OK, this one is a toy boat, like the rest. I hear you.

[gatorgarfish]

Gatorgarfish, if you are willing to do some buildling, you might consider the Atlas 540. You will have to supply your own radio and battery (and ESC if you refuse to use the supplied MSC). The hull is ABS plastic instead of the more toy-like styrene. The supplied deck hardware is gold but it can be painted silver or not used at all. You should be able to build it for around $200 if you use the provided speed controller. The only question would be if you like the way it looks. The picture on MRC is not a very good one.

Here is a review (http://modelmarvels.com/atlas%20review.htm ) of the buildup of the boat. And here is a thread (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6316.0) from Model Boat Mayhem where I asked someone who owns this boat their opinion of it, with a nice photo of it in action. Unfortunately, finances and family have kept me from actually moving ahead with this.

Attached is a photo of the completed boat from the review (also found in the gallery section of ModelMarvels.com).

Now if Aquacraft or Proboat would just step up and make an RTR cruiser...I appreciate this; I really do. I might try to build that in the not too distant future. I have never tried to build a kit, even a simpler one. Thank you for those links too--very helpful info. You are right; Proboat or Aquacraft ought to consider this style. If a pirate ship sells for AQ, then surely a smart looking cabin cruiser could have just as good a potential market out there waiting and untapped. I am leaning heavily again towards the St. Tropez. It's essentially a Graupner RTR; how 'bad' can it be ?! The Power Deluxe 280 is too much an unknown. With just one US dealer, [MRC] could have it significantly overpriced. Who would be the wiser ? This boat is a UK thing too, and, yeah, it looks (superficially) too much like the low priced Chinese toy grades to inspire enough confidence. It's higher pricetag is obviously not good evidence for hobby grade quality. That's easy as pie to figure out for most anybody, no matter how new they may be to r/c boating.

[Frank Hurd]

Yep the job was killing me-didn't have two days off in a row so I quit. You still terrorizing the locals?
Frank

[Greg_Vincent]

Gatorgarfish,

My opinion (since that was topic of thread) of the GP cruiser boats is that even if they have decent running gear/electronics, they retain a lot of that toy-like appearance (graphics, ladder to get to flybridge (gotta pause video to see this), no detail on back deck, etc). As with any boat, more detail can be added, and stickers can be removed, but then it's not really RTR. I think the racing versions actually "fit" this boat better (forward only racing/speedboat).

Anyway, the St. Tropez has much more detail, reverse, and other boats by the same maker are known to be of good quality (Southampton tug). To me that's worth the extra $30.

The Lindberg boats are model kits that you would have to build up and probably paint and then convert to RC. They are awesome looking boats but either would be a project.

BTW, RC Scale Models has the St. Tropez on Ebay as an auction, item #370050344144. Could save you some money.

[gatorgarfish]

Gatorgarfish,

My opinion (since that was topic of thread) of the GP cruiser boats is that even if they have decent running gear/electronics, they retain a lot of that toy-like appearance (graphics, ladder to get to flybridge (gotta pause video to see this), no detail on back deck, etc). As with any boat, more detail can be added, and stickers can be removed, but then it's not really RTR. I think the racing versions actually "fit" this boat better (forward only racing/speedboat).I agree, on both points; you are right.

Anyway, the St. Tropez has much more detail, reverse, and other boats by the same maker are known to be of good quality (Southampton tug). To me that's worth the extra $30.I do want reverse--need it ! It is worth the extra $ 30, and Bill of rcscalemodels has graciously offered me a super deal upon seeing this thread. I replied, but my post didn't go through. All of my previous sent messages are gone too...the outbox was electronically emptied at some point in the recent past. Computers ! They can bum you out !

The Southampton tug is a good RTR, no doubt about it. So, the Hobby Engine's based on Graupner St. Tropez must be of good quality too. My wife is upset that I have spent so much money and so soon on this hobby. I had seen the GP boat on YouTube and the guy who owned it was really really happy with it and said that the St. Tropez, while good too, was "temperamental." His brother has one and he filmed it for his 'channel.' I posted those two videos' links on this thread. I'm just frustrated at the lack of options. I know the Hobby Engine model must actually be the stand out of the two; the guy there on YouTube is wrong.

The Lindberg boats are model kits that you would have to build up and probably paint and then convert to RC. They are awesome looking boats but either would be a project.

BTW, RC Scale Models has the St. Tropez on Ebay as an auction, item #370050344144. Could save you some money.Thank you, Greg_Vincent. And I want to make it clear that I owe Kmot my thanks too. On my first (now of three, total) threads, he gave me so much help with my Aquacrafts. He knows alot, and he helped me alot. I can empathize with him in being taken, in good faith, back a while, by companies that didn't deliver the goods. He is a true enthusiast and that made him normally vulnerable in his very earliest purchases. Don't you think that is probably so ? You and him have helped me avoid a boat that isn't the best for me. I appreciate it; I really do. That's why I asked for opinions from those most likely to know what's what. We have some uniquely knowledgeable guys on this forum. A number of them have weighed in here.