Is Histarter Wrong

[histarter]

We have pointed to a dramatic restriction to enter organized competition by the sport flyer, and newbie, through the experts demand for excessive winch power. Do you believe this to be true, or false.

[Twizter68]

False- There is already a Novice class, which allows contest skill building and progression.

And next time you want to post a poll, actually add the poll.


EDIT: And I have launched an unmodified Spirit 100 AND SIG Riser 2M off of the club winch...just takes a light touch.

[rdeis]

False.

[schrederman]

False!!!!!

and... yeah... he's wrong... :p

[quigley257]

Yeah, I'm gonna go with false also. Or maybe Al can convince them to let me race my Buick LeSabre in the Indy 500... of course they will have to put restrictions on the other cars...

--quigley :rolleyes:

[yardflier]

False -- Al is wrong but very entertaining :D

[tonyestep]

The many sport flyers and newbies who have joined MVSA in the past two or three years have shown zero interest in flying 1980s drag queens. They prefer to fly planes that will thermal easily and consistently, because thermaling makes flying more fun. Hence they are flying planes like the Ava, Topaz, Piper, Soprano, and Organic. Naturally, they therefore prefer winch launches, which are safer, more controllable, and more consistent.

The proposition is wholly false.

[little flyer]

False.

[John Walter]

We have pointed to a dramatic restriction to enter organized competition by the sport flyer, and newbie, through the experts demand for excessive winch power. Do you believe this to be true, or false.


False - my son (Little Flyer) first flew from a winch in April 2006 (a used Chicago Stlye RES), May 2007 was his first contest with a full-house sailplane (a used Pike Superior), next month he leaves for Turkey to compete in the F3J world championships (several new Supras).

How quickly they grow up! :D

[jtlsf5]

Looks like you're 100% wrong. Getting the message yet?

I'll keep the average perfect, FALSE, WRONG, FANTASY-LAND

[tonyestep]

The future of the sport lies in the hands of young talents like Jeff Walter. For their sake, and for the sake of all of us, we need to keep pushing in airplane design and technology, just as we have been doing.

Just as Jeff progressed from a ChicagoStyle to a Pike Superior to a Supra, and from SOAR club contests to the World Championships, the whole sport has moved from the boxy sinkmasters of yesteryear to the thermal angels of today, and the faster it moves the more fun it is.

[Spiker]

False

[Curare]

False.

If dead air time is the issue, increase the duration for TD events.

[sailfree]

False

Sailfree

[sundog]

No sir, winch launches and aircraft are not a barrier for the novice, I am one. For every novice there must be 10 advanced fliers that are more than willing to help with the launch and by timing for them. The last contest I flew in. 3 years ago, I had my trusty 2 meter Aspire and thanks to 3 experienced fliers hanging out with me while I was up I hooked a monster thermal and was higher than the moldies. I still remember Dr. Dan yelling down the line "hey everyone, look at that poly over there" and laughing. What a wonderful day.

Here comes the truth Al. The only barrier to me winning contests is me. I know what it takes to win and cannot comprehend lobbying an entire community to change their ways to suit me because I am not willing to do what it takes to win at THEIR game.

The sport is where it's at because the majority of people find it rewarding and choose to participate. All of your banter on this board isn't going to change that; only a better mousetrap will. You need to approach your crusade as an entrepranuer, not a masiah. If I need to explain that to you then you have already lost your battle. Unfortunately that seems to be the case.

[shoe]

No sir, winch launches and aircraft are not a barrier for the novice, I am one. For every novice there must be 10 advanced fliers that are more than willing to help with the launch and by timing for them. The last contest I flew in. 3 years ago, I had my trusty 2 meter Aspire and thanks to 3 experienced fliers hanging out with me while I was up I hooked a monster thermal and was higher than the moldies. I still remember Dr. Dan yelling down the line "hey everyone, look at that poly over there" and laughing. What a wonderful day.

Here comes the truth Al. The only barrier to me winning contests is me. I know what it takes to win and cannot comprehend lobbying an entire community to change their ways to suit me because I am not willing to do what it takes to win at THEIR game.

The sport is where it's at because the majority of people find it rewarding and choose to participate. All of your banter on this board isn't going to change that; only a better mousetrap will. You need to approach your crusade as an entrepranuer, not a masiah. If I need to explain that to you then you have already lost your battle. Unfortunately that seems to be the case.


I think this is simply the best post I have seen on this subject to date. Well said sir.

[Jim Deck]

Come on!! We see enough conspiracies elsewhere without looking for them in our hobbies as well. Make that an all caps FALSE for me.
Jim Deck

[lincoln]

False.

Actually, I don't think the sink rate on some of the older gliders was worse, but the L/D certainly was.

[Gliderguy]

Have to say false too.

I don't see a conspiracy in the model aviation community to control the direction of or restrict the sport, just a response to an evolution of the sport. Modelers and RC pilots are free to build, fly, compete and start competitions all they want. It's just that some ideas don't catch on as well as others.

[Thermaler]

My trusty old Falcon 880 still holds it's own at the get togethers at the sod farm. I have been flying it for 15+ years.
Full pedal zooms from a good winch.

My Ospery 2m all wood v tail has shown great promise in the dozen or so flights it has. It finally got out of the shop late last fall.
Working up to full pedal zooms.

I know what my Super Esprit can do. I have had it for 20 years, the 4th wing is the strongest, so far.
Even with the real spar ( not the stock 3 pieces of spruce on edge) I know better than to stomp on the pedal. At 173" I have no desire to zoom but the captive towhook lets me kite a few extra feet. Tap...........Tap...........tap.......

At my first contest MANY years ago I flew a stock OlyII in the Novice class. I had used a winch but very little. My timer told me to tap it so I did. Each round I tapped a little faster. Common sense and a watchful eye told me when I was getting all I could out of it. My timer telling me that I was pushing it help alot too.
After two days I had finished 2nd and 4th for first overall. I give 98% of it to my timer.
He told me that if I wanted to do well in contest that I should do two things, learn one plane VERY WELL and practice. Part of that practice includes learning how to use a winch.
Three months later I won my 2nd contest at the same club by a very large margin. I did it because I followed the advice given by the timer at my first contest. The win got me booted out of Novice.
I have been to several contest since then and even won a few.
Thank you Dad for the advice, it still works. That is why I will give DH a run for the money at the sod farm with the trusty Falcon. Higher performance verses more stick time makes things fairly equal for us average guys and very interesting.

Knowing how to use the winch helps some too!

So false.

Joe

[Richard S]

false

DLG/F3K is the "low launch" competition that is used by thousands of pilots worldwide.

Unfortunately for Al, he has never heard of or seen F3K, he just comes out with some BS that I don't understand, to discount it from his argument.

I do get annoyed by his constant references to BARCS in the UK, who he claims promote his idea's. They don't.

Al, here in the UK we have exactly the same attitude as our friends in the USA, please don't use us as an example to back up your crazy ideas.

[Jurgen]

...Do you believe this to be true, or false.I do not believe in true or false, everyone has his peace of cake and everone has to bake his own cake. If you try to convice that your cake is the best, guarantee is that you get pounded :). If HAM is succesfully it will proove itself to be so, despite all critisism of the 'others'.
Good luck, Jurgen.

[Joe W]

Al,

I'd prefer that soaring comps were more about soaring and less about landing. That said, reducing the launch tension in my opinion will not solve this issue. Yes, all else being equal, higher launch height reduces the soaring factor somewhat, but the big issue is that the planes have gained so much in performance in the last decade or so since you have been to a competition. The issues are similar to the full-scale changes back in the 30's. At some point, measuring soaring skills via measuring duration became somewhat less than meaningful as the airframe performance improved.

Changing the launch tension just changes the design optimum point, but does not change the basic equation. What it does though, is increase the standard deviation of the scores (read: luck factor). The only way that this works in a meaningful way in the measurement of soaring skills is via a man-on-man scoring format. Otherwise, it becomes a high luck factor if the flight order is called, or measures sand-bagging skills if it is open winch order.

To summarize, your premise is not true in my opinion.

Joe

[Bryan Quick]

That is a false statement Al.

There are a lot of people willing to help.

[OVSS Boss]

False...nuff said.

[Hostage-46]

The Troll's statement is False

[spinolio]

False

[Robglover]

Poll - Is Histarter Wrong

Yep, Histarter is wrong.

[Mark Miller]

False, Al's premise is wrong and has been because he forgets one fact.

The beauty of a winch...any winch, is that you can vary the tension used to suit your needs. There is a switch that you put your foot on. use it. Much more difficult to do with a high start without buying a new high start. Why not use one device that when used correctly can launch any type model. I frequently launch my 8 ounce Zephyr II all wood DLG with very light spar system on winches that were used at the NATS and sold off to fortunate users as well as the usual Injoy powered Tim McCann winches. I have never broken one yet.


Mark

[dharban]

False

[rdeis]

Mark, I remember a couple of people in the previous "winch power thread" saying that the big motors and heavyweight line are much more difficult to modulate than older winches with stretchier, lighter weight line.

Have you seen this with the 4 and 8 HP Injoy motors?

(That observation was accompanied by suggestions of power-limiting resistors and other devices that the observers had used to make the winches safer for lighter airplanes.)

[Mark Miller]

Just went through my foggy memory banks. Having been flying for 30 years, I have blown up only two wings on launch. They were both on high starts. Sounds like I should try being more aggressive on the winch.

BTW...Al's still wrong

[tonyestep]

There were a couple of threads about the Brandon winches with the big motors, quite recently. In those threads, the guys doing the testing claimed that the operation of those motors was smooth enough to do a good job of launching 2-meter and other light planes (it's the jerks that kill the little planes). I can't comment first-hand, but you could check those threads.

Here's one reference:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=835684&page=3

BTW, the big Injoy motor is 4.8 HP; the little one is about the same as the Ford.

[RBMartin]

False,

JW summed up what I have been saying to Al all along very nicely.

Bruce

[Mark Miller]

The only thing that will effectively make modern winches safe for light models while at the same time usable on large plane (and they should be usable for both) is the piece of equipment pushing on the switch. That piece of equipment is the pilot or launcher. No need for resistors or power limiting thingymajigs. Some folks view winches as evil only because they are viewed in the context of the switch being down. There is an up. Up should be used in varying degrees compared to down to suit the pilots wishes and is a valuable skill to learn. Just like driving a car, It can be dangerous if you drive with your foot to the floor all the time. No one suggests that we should all drive a Citroen 2CV with 18 horsepower as a solution to deaths while driving. BTW....I used to have a 2CV. It was one of the most fun cars todrive while at the same time terrifying going up a hill with trucks whizzing past you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXOJ28b6WIo&feature=related

[rdeis]

I agree that there is no correlation between winch power and reduced numbers of new pilots, as I said in #2.

I, myself, have never blown up a wing launching-- but I have seen it happen more times than I care to count.

The complaint from the other thread was experienced guys that know how to tap the pedal having a hard time with a specific (large) motor and heavyweight line that doesn`t stretch much.

[histarter]

Just like driving a car, It can be dangerous if you drive with your foot to the floor all the time. No one suggests that we should all drive a Citroen 2CV with 18 horsepower as a solution to deaths while driving. BTW....I used to have a 2CV. It was one of the most fun cars todrive while at the same time terrifying going up a hill with trucks whizzing past you.

My kind of car! ;)

I Have to get on a waiting list for 2 years to get my 9 foor Mercedes sub, to be able to scoot to the grocery store, or Senior Center (25 mph racing for all of 3 miles!). The next choice is a golf cart, that would be ripe for zealous ticketing! :eek: :D

I kinda worship the Renault Dalphine (45 mpg in 1960, and with modern electrics, should squeeze 55 - or 70 mpg with the Fisher Engine modification.) :D

[davidjensen]

Quite false Our last contest had 7 novice pilots and the winner flew a Fling.

[histarter]

I surrender! I realize we are now so deep into socialized slavery that there is no place on the planet to excape it, other then the regions of ones own mind! You Win!
The Last of the Mohicans is an epic novel by James Fenimore Cooper, first published in January 1826.
I apparently ape this story by falsely believing there are those of us left that like to engage enginuity and practical engineering skills for the fun of a soaring adventure. Unfortunately the social aspect of the homo sapien is tuned to have the scientific community do this ‘think tank’ them, and thus seek perfection as a godlike apperition! Religious zeal can be very distructive, if one takes the time to view history.
In our arguments I totally agreed that hi tech is superior in the upper air for open ended boring holes i.e. if one is seeking beauty in their machine by minimizing the storage capacity of ballast, enhancing streamlining, while still having residual design limitations because of stretched attributes for obtaining performance over everything! This facet is apparently uncomprehensible, and those who are damaged will not step forward because of peer pressure, so I have to bow out of the damnable situation that no stimulation of logic or 'free thinking' can correct!
Because of the expensive toys that are currently popular, the experimenters and curious just no longer have the fraturnal, or the financial power, to modify their toys to individualize their soaring adventure (musicians hand their intruments over to technitions to modify them, and so do modelers now) – somewhere along the line the spirit of model airplanes has died! Bye Bye Miss American Pie....

[Twizter68]

"I apparently ape this story by falsely believing there are those of us left that like to engage enginuity and practical engineering skills for the fun of a soaring adventure. Unfortunately the social aspect of the homo sapien is tuned to have the scientific community do this ‘think tank’ them, and thus seek perfection as a godlike apperition!"

Here is where your problem lies; you view people that like to see technology advance as those that are holding soaring back, when the reverse is true...and using winches, composites, streamlined fuselages and advanced wing profiles is not killing the engineering aspect, it's stretching it into new areas. Remember the cardinal rule of Engineering (and quite frankly, ANY technical discipline!) is Stagnate and DIE! Even though you think we prefer to have someone else do the "Hard" work of designing and building, you could not be more wrong; I for one am building a Supra from scratch, with design changes, a redesigned Spirit 100, and a redesigned Pulsar XL, all of them using changes that I came up with and planned out.

As I told you in the e-mail...YOU are the one who is killing HAM, by your holier-than-thou, patrician attitude!

[rdwoebke]

The beauty of a winch...any winch, is that you can vary the tension used to suit your needs. There is a switch that you put your foot on. use it. Much more difficult to do with a high start without buying a new high start. Why not use one device that when used correctly can launch any type model. I frequently launch my 8 ounce Zephyr II all wood DLG with very light spar system on winches that were used at the NATS and sold off to fortunate users as well as the usual Injoy powered Tim McCann winches. I have never broken one yet.


Mark,

I wish you would have been in Cinci last October then. At last year's Pumpkin, I encouraged a new pilot to come out to the Pumpkin fly. I think he had a good time, but we could never get his Gentle Lady up the winch line. And I consider myself a pretty darn good tapper. I also had Ed Franz try to help out. Every time, it popped off at about 50 feet.

We ended up having him setup his high start, but if there was a solution there to get this plane up the line to even 200 feet, I would like to know it.

Ryan

[FrogChief]

We have pointed to a dramatic restriction to enter organized competition by the sport flyer, and newbie, through the experts demand for excessive winch power. Do you believe this to be true, or false.


Undecided. I'll get back to you when I start flying contests.

[davidjensen]

I'm still not crying over the spilled milk.

[rdeis]

As I told you in the e-mail...YOU are the one who is killing HAM, by your holier-than-thou, patrician attitude!

This is true.

I think there's merit in HAM, but it can't be promoted by arguing that everyone that isn't flying HAM is an idiot.

[StevenatorLTFO]

Ryan, I've put my sophie up on a real balls winch, its touchy, but can be done :D

For the record, I've blown up two, one on a winch, and one on a highstart. Both were designed/built by me when I was a teenager, and had no idea I should be putting spruce in there for spars LOL

Last year, in the club contests I went to, only saw one fold up, it was a Sharon (I think) on a really windy day, and it had been previously repaired.

S

[histarter]

This is true.

I think there's merit in HAM, but it can't be promoted by arguing that everyone that isn't flying HAM is an idiot.
This is a convoluted contention generated by the sarcasm of the protectionists. My premise is that folks move too quickly into expensive equipment without learning the capabilities of the more basic equipment, that has more potential then promoted, and is cheap enough to chop and trim it to an owners satisfaction (something they simply would not do with a Pike Perfect!!).

HAM is the simple way to chop and trim, change things, trip and experiment to get something that is totally pleasing. Then seek the hitech performance package that best pleases oneself. This is the dogma I have been pressing all along, while the frustrated hecklers attempt to ridicule it by exaggeration. If I say similar too, they come back with “I said exactly alike.” By my saying they are unaware of the benefits because they refuse to experiment with the task, they claim I am calling them stupid! You cannot win in this environment, whether you’re debating, or flying against them!

Of course they also jump about and cannot stay on point with subjects that tend to jump about due to mutiple scenarios; because of their entanglements of blind faith to a religion, rather then a avocation!

[rdeis]

This is a convoluted contention generated by the sarcasm of the protectionists.

Perhaps- but you make is so easy for them to do, Al!

My premise is that folks move too quickly into expensive equipment without learning the capabilities of the more basic equipment, that has more potential then promoted,

On that you are quite correct. And that is a detriment to the sport. Newer pilots are very apt to (wrongly) beleive that they need very expensive equipment to be competitive even at the club level.

However, handicapping events to advantage older/cheaper designs does nothing to refute that beleif- but rather perpetuates it!

Besides, asking veteran pilots to stop flying their (very justifiably) favourite airplanes so others don't feel outclassed is never going to work. I've flown one of those, and am ordering one for myself because it it a very, very fun airframe to fly! And I just can't bring myself to believe that it hurts the sport so very much that I shouldn't enjoy such a machine!

I didn't get it because I need it to win, I got it because working a high altitude wave with my Dad's Zenith was the best time I've had at a flying field in years- and I'm old enough that I ought to be using my own equipment.

Look:

Most contests allow you to use your own launch equipment if you bring it and set it up. Do that- and finish strong-- and new folks who see that the high $$ machines aren't dominating you will start to ask questions.

Fail to do that, and no amount of talk will win respect for your position.

[tonyestep]

Hey Rdeis,
Is your dad Frank Deis? If so, tell him hi. He is one of my soaring heroes. All the guys on here who keep talking about the LegionAir should know that Frank was the guy who had the greatest success of anybody with the LegionAir, winning the SOAR Nats as well as a lot of other contests with it. Great flyer, super-nice guy.

[histarter]

Perhaps- but you make is so easy for them to do, Al!



On that you are quite correct. And that is a detriment to the sport. Newer pilots are very apt to (wrongly) beleive that they need very expensive equipment to be competitive even at the club level.

However, handicapping events to advantage older/cheaper designs does nothing to refute that beleif- but rather perpetuates it!

Besides, asking veteran pilots to stop flying their (very justifiably) favourite airplanes so others don't feel outclassed is never going to work. I've flown one of those, and am ordering one for myself because it it a very, very fun airframe to fly! And I just can't bring myself to believe that it hurts the sport so very much that I shouldn't enjoy such a machine!

I didn't get it because I need it to win, I got it because working a high altitude wave with my Dad's Zenith was the best time I've had at a flying field in years- and I'm old enough that I ought to be using my own equipment.

Look:

Most contests allow you to use your own launch equipment if you bring it and set it up. Do that- and finish strong-- and new folks who see that the high $$ machines aren't dominating you will start to ask questions.

Fail to do that, and no amount of talk will win respect for your position.
I guess "bring your launch equipment" so far is my only success! It would be a lot of fun to set up my winch (by AMA rules) and launch the 2mtr Shuttle right up there with the hitechs - using efficiency instead of brute force and performance. I am sure they would scream about me using 300 meters to turnaround (that is elevated), 40 lb test line, no retriever system. And if I top them in altitude, claim I was cheating! [This happens to be a rerun]

I am too far over the hill. I am still trying to get out to ROG my Slow Stick to play with the seagulls at a nearby pond.
I have no students now, or technicians to train, so I can no longer assemble a soaring team of any kind. However; if you have any intention to make the TNT here in Dallas, let me know.

Fortune cookie: we all become crotchety old timers no matter what.
Thank goodness my Indian forbears deposited Methuselah’s sense of humor.

[Brendan Miller]

False, before I got my hands on a soprano I had a obechi over foam 137in glider which I launched off our club contest winch just as hard as I did the Soprano. I'm pretty sure a few MVSA members can attest to this.

The only older plane I will fly is my astrojeff which I am redoing, there just is no fun in going up a hundred feet and having to come down. Besides you really can't use a histart with NO wind.

Brendan

[rdwoebke]

Besides you really can't use a histart with NO wind.


Sure you can. I have done it quite a lot. In general launches will be more snappy with some headwind, but you can certianly launch in no wind conditions. I did one of my 4 one hour LSF flights in just about still conditions off the weakest high start I had ever flown from.

Ryan

[rdeis]

Hey Rdeis,
Is your dad Frank Deis?

Yup! It's funny-- the more I hang around here, the more I keep running in to people that knew him in the 70s-- and you all seem to like and respect him, which gives me big shoes to fill. He still flies his Legionaire quite well, but has been spending more time with a Zenith 3.8 and a Bubble Dancer lately.

Frank was the guy who had the greatest success of anybody with the LegionAir, winning the SOAR Nats as well as a lot of other contests with it. Great flyer, super-nice guy.

Taght me to fly with it, too. First airplane of my own was a 2m Shuttle that I still have wings for (Shuttle fuses are hard to keep in one piece...) If I'm able to start getting serious about competing again I'll have to build one of Skybench's Legionaires to fly in Nostalgia.

[histarter]

Sure you can. I have done it quite a lot. In general launches will be more snappy with some headwind, but you can certianly launch in no wind conditions. I did one of my 4 one hour LSF flights in just about still conditions off the weakest high start I had ever flown from.

Ryan
There is so much voodoo thinking about histarts out there so it is difficult to communicate the realistic advantages of light weight launch equipment. In a dead calm, my empty OlyIII will still (feebly) zoom off a 2 mtr Pinnacle histart, with the best altitude acquired by my 2 mtr Shuttle.

With wind, and a big heavy sailplane with captive hook, one can kite to keep line length to about 65 degrees, then tap pedal to smootch a bit higher, pop the release and inertia climb because of model adjusting to the lower airspeed of flight. This is a fun adventure that the 4 hp men (of the Acropolis?) steal away from us old timers. If I were younger, I would probably put all my eggs in one basket by flying an SB-XC; most likely 2 of them, with one cooking under constant modification - until the 'taste' is correct to cover-up my incompetence. [I am not the worlds best soaring pilot, and need all the help I can get.]

[jtlsf5]

If I were younger, I would probably put all my eggs in one basket by flying an SB-XC; most likely 2 of them...


Never could happen, never will happen. You're speaking out of your rear again. SBXC is a modern design (certainly 1992 is modern in your fantasy world), and by your own stilted logic wouldn't work in your 20 year old view of the soaring world. I'd love to watch you launch an 11# SBXC off a high start, but don't think I'd survive the hysterical fits of laughter that would go with watching this debacle.

[histarter]

Never could happen, never will happen. You're speaking out of your rear again. SBXC is a modern design (certainly 1992 is modern in your fantasy world), and by your own stilted logic wouldn't work in your 20 year old view of the soaring world. I'd love to watch you launch an 11# SBXC off a high start, but don't think I'd survive the hysterical fits of laughter that would go with watching this debacle.
Common sense should tell you that the XC-SB (a gigantic GL) is the biggest hi-tech available, and in my point of view, that if I have to fly from a overpowering launch system (that is tuned for miniature aircraft), this would be my choice...Big is better. Anything larger would require a trailer to haul it around – and I would prefer a Marske Monarch for this state of affairs. Hmm, with a 8hp winch motor I wonder how the Monarch would do in TD. Launch Gs would not be bad, but if I succeed on a spot landing, I would be a dead man! :eek: :eek:

Why do you have a problem with prospective? Small aircraft (2 to 3 meters in span) really doesn't require the same hp as a man-carrying ultralight to launch! Those that capitalize on 2 mtr entry level machines usually practice fly with a histart, and then switching to a winch (forcing extreme growth acceleration) can be disastrous, intimidating, and disheartening. Basically not a good system for growth! :rolleyes:

[SmokinJoe101]

Common sense should tell you that the XC-SB (a gigantic GL) is the biggest hi-tech available, and in my point of view, that if I have to fly from a overpowering launch system :

If you had XC-SB :rolleyes: (a gigantic GL) :rolleyes: I do not know if R&R still makes them???? this model would not last you, as you would spin it into the ground.. since your used to flying GL a 10lb aileron ship would not do your skills justice ALSO i would love to see how you manage it's energy on landing OUCH :eek: not a GL :rolleyes:

All this talk out of your A$% :censored: is getting old

[will_newton]

histarter, i have read so many of your threads. I can't understand. Do you think that no one is having any fun flying gliders anymore? It's sounds as if only YOU are not enjoying it.

Do you also refuse to use electricity, indoor plumbing, and modern medicine? Is your food staying cold in a refrigerator? You have mentioned your advanced age and poor health. Would you rather have passed away at age 12 from the common cold instead of having life extending technology?

You behave as if you were some Luddite when it comes to sailplanes, but obviously take advantage of other modern contrivances available to make your life more enjoyable.

Why the double standard? Why do you presume that we are suffering under some oppression due to the existence of winches? I will agree with you to an extent, I hate winches...and histarts. I love DLG and hugely overpowered electric sailplanes myself, but I don't run around calling everyone else crazy because they do what they do. ;)

I mean all this kind of tongue in cheek and mean no harm, but I will say that your comparison of an SBXC to a Gentle Lady is about as far off as claiming an ultralight is the same as a 747. Yeah, they both got wings, but geez man.... :rolleyes:

[histarter]

If you had XC-SB :rolleyes: (a gigantic GL) :rolleyes: I do not know if R&R still makes them???? this model would not last you, as you would spin it into the ground.. since your used to flying GL a 10lb aileron ship would not do your skills justice ALSO i would love to see how you manage it's energy on landing OUCH :eek: not a GL :rolleyes:

All this talk out of your A$% :censored: is getting old
Smoky, In 30 years of soaring, I flew them all from Alpina's to Dohls. For low launch thermalling or cross country, I prefer poly for lightness and lift cooperation. I flew a Spirit 100 as a cheap TD machine and aggrevated experts with good slip spots. Right wing was inboard aileron, left was landing flap, and leading spiral thermal flap. A bit tricky but very workable.

Big Chicken was my 5 meter Mirage, and Goliath my largest design, that ended up way too heavy for a symetrical profile (as employed by Cecil Haga on his Chaparell that I had the honor to test fly).

For those that think my bravado is to cover BS; I have been a CEO for many corporations, and learned confidence in my belief is necessary to be successful at my job. I guess only other CEOs would comprehend this.

[Mark Miller]

Ken Lay suffered from the same malady. Believing in something does not make it right.

[Gldrpilot]

Smoky, In 30 years of soaring, I...flew a Spirit 100 as a cheap TD machine and aggrevated experts with good slip spots. Right wing was inboard aileron, left was landing flap, and leading spiral thermal flap. A bit tricky but very workable.
.

What the #$$%#$%%??? That makes no sense whatsoever!

[tewatson]

You guys are only encouraging his senile drivel.

Tom

[Hostage-46]

...I have been a CEO for many corporations, and learned confidence in my belief is necessary to be successful at my job. I guess only other CEOs would comprehend this...

OK I'll bite... list them please

Kindly include annual sales revenue, number of employees and stock symbol unless privately held.

[Thermaler]

My Opinions From My Experince:

Hi Starts:
Cheap, easy to setup launch system. Gives decent launch height to search for thermals.
Will destroy a sailplane in case of a mishap such as not launching with the Tx or Rx on or trying to fly a V Tail with a T Tail setup on a Vision Tx.
Gives miserable launchs downwind.

Winches:
The most powerful can be pricey, take a little more effort to setup, can give fantastic launches if used properly for anything from my 60" Gnome (stock, no carbon) to my 173" Super Esprit and any of the moldies.
Gives a decent launch to search for thermals off a downwind launch if nessecary.
Can actually save a plane from mishaps such as not turning the Tx or Rx on or trying to fly a T Tail with a V Tail setup on a Vision Tx if the plane is trimmed properly. Simply let off the pedal and the sticks. Try that with a histart!

I have launched an OlyII, a Viking, a Super Esprit and a Magnum 12 from the winches at the NATs and club contest. I have seen more than one OlyII go home after the NATs in one piece (well three actually but the same three it came in (<8 )The Super Esprit has a better spar than the original design, the Magnum 12 was a stock no carbon build. Tap.... Tap.... Tap.....

My original Wanderer would still be with me had I been using a winch. Too many steps, hello left wing tip I am the right wing tip. Would not have had all that energy stored in the rubber.

I got a buddy of mine into sailplanes and started him with a winch that another buddy always dragged out to the sod farm. He had no problem launching by himself after watching us launch once he had learned to fly. Tap..... Tap..... Tap....
He more than once forgot to turn on the Tx, letting off the pedal made for a walk across the field to get the plane back then fly again.
He forgot to turn on the Tx the third time he launched from a hi start after learning to fly and destroyed his Aquila.
I have seen stock Wanderers, GL's, Sophies and other small, light and frail sailplanes launch from a club winch with no problems, just a little use of the grey matter between the ears which can be a problem for some.

Just learning how to use a winch can save your plane. It also adds more enjoyment wether at the sod farm or at a contest, more altitude to start hunting thermals from.

Joe

[Thermaler]

...I have been a CEO for many corporations, and learned confidence in my belief is necessary to be successful at my job. I guess only other CEOs would comprehend this...

OK I'll bite... list them please

Kindly include annual sales revenue, number of employees and stock symbol unless privately held.

If they are still in business?

Part of being confident is knowing when to cut your loses and admit being wrong then moving forward not making the same mistake over and over. It has done me well.

Joe

The only 2nd shift Manager for the same number of people that first shift needs two managers for.

[histarter]

If they are still in business?

Part of being confident is knowing when to cut your loses and admit being wrong then moving forward not making the same mistake over and over. It has done me well.

Joe

The only 2nd shift Manager for the same number of people that first shift needs two managers for.

I previously posted my credentials only to have the forum cultists force the webmaster to remove them. Hostile 46 can check with his club members who were employees of MG Industries, or worked with me in the past, to gather information.

Joe, I am through attempting to correct your problems i.e. fight with you to do so! I guess the better cult is the KK* where I, along with 2 other Jewish professors, were treated much more cordially by the "nasty" Grand Dragon.
This post will probably be bombed because I contimplated using a dirty word.

[aeajr]

We have pointed to a dramatic restriction to enter organized competition by the sport flyer, and newbie, through the experts demand for excessive winch power. Do you believe this to be true, or false.

False.

Generally newbie flyers have little understanding about winch power so this is highly unlikely to be an issue. Likewise they know nothing about heavy line.

These things will be an issue for the midrange sportsman who might decide he doesn't want to play if he can't win and he feels that the investment is too high.

I would not be in favor of stronger winches or stronger line, but I has not been an issue for me and it was not an issue when I started. I knew nothing about these things.

[glderguy]

Regardless of the bashing, it seems to me you all seem to have something of a fond spot for highstarter. One thing you gotta admit, he takes a lickin and keeps on tickin!
Walter

[Hostage-46]

..."Hostile 46 can check with his club members who were employees of MG Industries, or worked with me in the past, to gather information..."

"Hostile" , oh I get it, that's clever ...

That's OK, we'll take your word for it, not really worth the time, we tend to spend our time at the club, you know, flying....

[Jflyer1]

If you had XC-SB :rolleyes: (a gigantic GL) :rolleyes: I do not know if R&R still makes them???? this model would not last you, as you would spin it into the ground.. since your used to flying GL a 10lb aileron ship would not do your skills justice ALSO i would love to see how you manage it's energy on landing OUCH :eek: not a GL :rolleyes:

All this talk out of your A$% :censored: is getting old


Joe, I've got to say this thread is HILARIOUS! I was LOL on your comment above. :D

Histarter, all I can say is lighten up and have some fun man this is just a hobby! Run with what ya' brung and roll with it (be it a hi-start, winch, hand tow, tow plane, being pulled by a motorcycle, a truck, a van, or even a car - who cares what it is)! Most importantly, just have FUN, after all that's what this hobby is all about, sounds like you need some cheer in your life, rather than worrying about your perceived demise of the hobby!! Geez!!! Happy Thermals! :)

P.S. - Histarter I FLEW today, how about you?

[Freakflyin]

False....
...and why would an experienced pilot want to fly a trainer in a major competition... and why would a beginner entering a major competition expect to win... I personaly believe that is an honor that comes with experience and skill, not a bell curve. Competition breeds superior technology and design. So bring your knife to the gunfight, have fun and fly your ship to its limits cause nobody is gonna prorate your score cause you choose to fly a BOT.

Mike

[histarter]

Joe, I've got to say this thread is HILARIOUS! I was LOL on your comment above. :D

Histarter, all I can say is lighten up and have some fun man this is just a hobby! Run with what ya' brung and roll with it (be it a hi-start, winch, hand tow, tow plane, being pulled by a motorcycle, a truck, a van, or even a car - who cares what it is)! Most importantly, just have FUN, after all that's what this hobby is all about, sounds like you need some cheer in your life, rather than worrying about your perceived demise of the hobby!! Geez!!! Happy Thermals! :)

P.S. - Histarter I FLEW today, how about you?
Yes sir, I have to get out. Attempting to slope fly a Palm Z off of dancing seniors at the Senior Center, just is not enough! ;)
I went to a farm today and topped 50 meters of walking, only to get run over by a gaggle of puppies. My wife will probably take home a nasty little one to keep me in line. If she does bring one home in a couple of weeks, my feral cat will probably enjoy it as dinner. :D

[Twizter68]

Attempting to slope fly a Palm Z off of dancing seniors at the Senior Center, just is not enough! ;)



You have to do it on Mexican Night; once the 3 bean burritos get working, you can DS! :D

[histarter]

You have to do it on Mexican Night; once the 3 bean burritos get working, you can DS! :D
Cinco de Mayo should be a very special day!! :D

[glidagida]

Yes, as usual Hi-Starter is dead wrong.

The statement is false.

GG

[Jurgen]

Does the sailboats scene prevent people from surfboarding?
Does the Formula1 racing scene prevent guys from entering karting?
Does the newest BMW compromises enjoying a good old Ford Mustang?
Does the mega alcohol swallowers hold you back from sipping just a glas of wine?
Does the hard core p.rn scene prevents one from classical loving just one wife?
Does F3X compromises the GL usage?
There is no true or false as they're all irrelevant questions, they should not be asked in the first place.
"This is better than that", such a trap ! Not everyone needs higher performance to feel happy, fortunately.
Jurgen. <-- loves to learn how to sling carbon on a mono-ed winch as high as possible ;)

[Curare]

Oh man, don't bring p.rn in here, there's enough masturbation going on as is.

[histarter]

Does the sailboats scene prevent people from surfboarding?
Does the Formula1 racing scene prevent guys from entering karting?
Does the newest BMW compromises enjoying a good old Ford Mustang?
Does the mega alcohol swallowers hold you back from sipping just a glas of wine?
Does the hard core p.rn scene prevents one from classical loving just one wife?
Does F3X compromises the GL usage?
There is no true or false as they're all irrelevant questions, they should not be asked in the first place.
"This is better than that", such a trap ! Not everyone needs higher performance to feel happy, fortunately.
Jurgen. <-- loves to learn how to sling carbon on a mono-ed winch as high as possible ;)
And our very existence is absurd!

[Jurgen]

And our very existence is absurd!If we make it so ourselves my friend. Get drown in absurdistan or discover what's worth living for. Good hunting mate, but the best ammunition in my world are no metal overdosed/escalating spirals (anymore). I know, they're so tempting ;)

[histarter]

If we make it so ourselves my friend. Get drown in absurdistan or discover what's worth living for. Good hunting mate, but the best ammunition in my world are no metal overdosed/escalating spirals (anymore). I know, they're so tempting ;)
Get down to the true concepts of life: eating, mating/multiplication, and being food for something. The planet earth is just a huge resturant! The best manager so far is the Dinosaur (200 million years) - unless we are hosting residence that are in hiding from previous eons? :D

[FrogChief]

I have been a CEO for many corporations, and learned confidence in my belief is necessary to be successful at my job. I guess only other CEOs would comprehend this.

I've met plenty of CEO's who probably couldn't find their way out of a paper bag.

-Froggy the Geologist

[IHAVAWDY]

I worked for a geologist that wore socks that were two different colors....and had another pair at home that had the same problem! :D

[Curare]

I often wear odd socks.



It's my way of STICKIN IT TO THE MAN!

[Twizter68]

I worked for a geologist that wore socks that were two different colors....and had another pair at home that had the same problem! :D


Froggy does'nt wear socks......











(wait for it!)















They don't fit over his feet! :D

Seriously, I've never seen him with socks on......

[Twizter68]

Get down to the true concepts of life: eating, mating/multiplication, and being food for something. The planet earth is just a huge resturant! The best manager so far is the Dinosaur (200 million years) - unless we are hosting residence that are in hiding from previous eons? :D


*In best Wink Martindale voice*
Wrong answer, but thanks for playing!


Sharks are King of the Heap, if you're going by time around.....they were around at the same time as Dinosaurs, and are still around.

Last time I looked, I didn't see any dinosaurs in my yard.....

[histarter]

*In best Wink Martindale voice*
Wrong answer, but thanks for playing!


Sharks are King of the Heap, if you're going by time around.....they were around at the same time as Dinosaurs, and are still around.

Last time I looked, I didn't see any dinosaurs in my yard.....
Narrow vision on your part my friend. I look into my yard I see oodles of the dinosaur remnant ancestors. Mockingbirds, Sparrows, Ducks etc., its about how you view a situation.

Cartilage fish are older than the land creatures, and the strongest of the species survive! Just a bit too crude to call them a Matre’ D. :D

[Twizter68]

Not narrow vision; evolution.

[Mark Miller]

So, the poll has verified that Al is wrong. What are we still discussing?

[Mark Miller]

Or maybe that should be...Al verified by the poll that he is still right but we are more wrong than he realized?

[Hostage-46]

So, the poll has verified that Al is wrong. What are we still discussing?

We all know there is no end in site... it goes on and on,

[StevenatorLTFO]

I got you babe!!!!!

[Jurgen]

Did you notice how hard it is to remove insects from your windshield? So if you gather & crush enuf of them, mixing them smooth, would that outclass any CA glue and be good for health too? And if hungry, just take some. And use it to laminate our moldies?
J.

[Twizter68]

Or maybe that should be...Al verified by the poll that he is still right but we are more wrong than he realized?


That, and Froggy apparently does not wear socks.

[bobby legue]

Jurgen,
I am currently using toothpaste for glueing anything to a plastic or fiberglass fuse. Have you ever noticed that the stuff wont stick to a brush but turns to a harder than CA glob when it hits the sink?







































NOT REALLY!!!!!!!!
Bob

[FrogChief]

I worked for a geologist that wore socks that were two different colors....and had another pair at home that had the same problem! :D


Sounds more like a paleontologist, they're the really hardcore geeks! :p :cool:

[FrogChief]

That, and Froggy apparently does not wear socks.

I did on Tuesday for about 2 hours...does that count?!?!


jerk...





:D

[StevenatorLTFO]

sounds like time for another poll

[Twizter68]

I did on Tuesday for about 2 hours...does that count?!?!


jerk...





:D


Nope. :D

[bobby legue]

Ok then I vote indifferent.

[histarter]

Did you notice how hard it is to remove insects from your windshield? So if you gather & crush enuf of them, mixing them smooth, would that outclass any CA glue and be good for health too? And if hungry, just take some. And use it to laminate our moldies?
J.
That is justification that model builders 6000 years ago, with more primitive strength (because of more efficient metabolism) built flying machines and used their 7X physical strength to power them about. A good glue and papyrus will do wonders! :D :D :p

[IHAVAWDY]

Ego... "you need to make others wrong in order to get a stronger sence of who you are." Eckhart Tolle