The Human Brain

[histarter]

Why does the artsy emotional portion of the human mind enjoy being the overlord of the individual's brain? Mankind seeks guidance from a spiritual God, yet he twists and converts Him into something his emotional being can accept, while he blindly follows illogical interpretations that individuals of status expound upon as “facts”! Any individual that truly seeks logical and/or honest information is considered as a heretic, and his obvious truth is to be ignored. Serious honest men attempting to employ equity and logic, always have their work converted by emotionalism, through what is called the 'democratic majority' (orchestrated by plutocrats), into something that ends up being contrary to their originator's quest, mindset and ethics. Add the current problems of the need for instant gratification, work overload, and a greater opinionated public, it seems patience to learn and do something correctly is no longer reasonable/acceptable, and is replaced by 'someone else' to do research, design, assembly, and repair.

Today everything has to be perfect with micromanagement occurring on every aspect of a toy Airplane's flight (as an example). The launch of a model with a bungee creates the need to scientifically cull the rubber for freshness, test the rubber for stroke regulation (with concern for high accuracy – while using a crude measuring device that is great for a 'ballpark' evaluation). Use the winch instead? It must be state-of-art (with a 'needed' computer monitor for battery condition i.e. to replicate rubber tension concern)! [Oops, the computer might just happen now!]
The gallant experts of old did not concern themselves with such trivia. They simply strove for getting the best they could muster, while doing a flight that needed exposure to lift to accomplish task via the pilot's skills. Their philosophy was that everyone is in the same boat - so lets go for it. If they were in the air (at any altitude) they were competing, and this attitude is the one that needs reinforcing by lowering the launch altitude to force more ingenuity from pilots.

Lets get to toy sailplane's events. AMA, TD, F3B, F3J, RES have been proven to be excellent formats for staged events, however it not a good training aid or stimulator for newbies, experiments, innovators (that work outside the box), nor is it good competition for the sport flyers that only wish to dabble in soaring for their amusement.

Their appears to be only one solution in attempting to broaden the soaring horizon – and that is not to create a new event but instead add an appendage onto the current formats that should increase participation. The appendage would be an experimenter's class. Launch limited by HAM histart, or sport winch of 15 lbs or less tension and 100 meters to turnaround.

Now comes the pressure for the current cult to bend somewhat to insure survival! A current sailplane meet is held, and the new experimenter's group to fly with the other contestants - although their launching is restricted (about 1/3d the launch altitude of the unlimited group). [Note: The Dallas group I was affiliated with was willing to do this, except they insisted that the complete task time accomplished! Pay AMA dues, and a club's entry fee, while accepting a huge handicap for the comradeship of flying with the “experts”, along with the harassment of not scoring well against their overpowerment? Obviously, no one from my group of sport-flyers, would attend!]

Instead take the flight score of the experimenters, and double it! If a youngster takes his GL and has the wining score after doing the 4 or 5 rounds of competition against the “experts”, he truly deserves the trophy! In fact if an “expert” wishes to experiment with his beloved AVA, BD or any other super high tech machine, with the belief he can accomplish the 'handicapped' task easily through doubling his score, more power to him - because the odds are stacked against it happening. Now I am not trying to promote International events to be operated with an 'experimenters appendage'. It's just for AMA Nationals on down to enhance both camaraderie while exposing dabblers to the peak of organized soaring - while they attempt to compete at the level they can handle.

The basic purpose is to make the organized soaring events grow in popularity without destroying the affection a modeler has for his creation. Psychologically, if a new contestant is brought into the adventure, the thought of 'Winning' is far fetched for him. But, if the newbie sees a reasonable score that he can improve upon, his probability of toughing it out for a future win is better as he gains experience! Hopefully, having more user friendly competition just may expand the contest experience for a wider range of flyers – which happens to be my basic goal.

[OVSS Boss]

Sounds good at the local club level, but the Nationals, and major sanctioned contests, I am not sure about those. As a contest director would always allow a flier to fly off a high start at a club event, to me things are not that hard core there. I would also consider scoring as noted, but not for expert fliers, the beginner class and such, probably is a good idea.

Marc

[jtlsf5]

Don't you think you should go to a few of the modern, major events before going into your tired, old diatribe? You beat everyone to death in other threads with your inexperienced, biased, self-serving, 20 year old outlook on soaring which is irrelevant to current practice and technology; wasn't that enough? Do we have to suffer the whole thing again because you just can't give it up?

So I will ask point blank: in the last 10 years, how many and what major events (not just those within 100-200 miles of your home) have you traveled to and flown in to justify this rant? Come on, tell the public what you have done for them lately to justify believing that your pet bias is relevant?

[Mark Miller]

Jim,

Al does not want to go to a modern soaring event. He terrified of seeing people having fun without following his belief system.

Al,

Be Honest. Your basic goal is to stand over us as overlord/God. You are fishing for people who are willing to give up their individuality and follow your cult like beliefs of what soaring should be. You want us to drink your Kool-Aid as you stand before us trying to be the leader. Your rules and guidelines are the shackles that will in your mind hopefully imprison us in your compound. You want to be our Jim Jones or David Koresh and your real motivation is to use your followers faith to prop up your self esteem.

Face facts. You have been promoting your ideas for 30 years and they have not been adopted by the soaring community. You blame us just as cult leaders do but the blame should be yours. Just like cult leaders you give the sermon that by following your rules you are freeing us from the evils of our world but just the opposite is true. You cannot stand seeing people being individuals but demanding they act like sheep and follow you exclusively.

[histarter]

Don't you think you should go to a few of the modern, major events before going into your tired, old diatribe? You beat everyone to death in other threads with your inexperienced, biased, self-serving, 20 year old outlook on soaring which is irrelevant to current practice and technology; wasn't that enough? Do we have to suffer the whole thing again because you just can't give it up?

So I will ask point blank: in the last 10 years, how many and what major events (not just those within 100-200 miles of your home) have you traveled to and flown in to justify this rant? Come on, tell the public what you have done for them lately to justify believing that your pet bias is relevant?

Austin Tx, RES
Lubock Nats,
Lincoln Nats,
Sequin Nats. (2)
Stanfield's funfly,
Albequerqque NM for HAM
To name a few.

A discussion is not a rant! Whern you are disallowed, why travel?

I am saying the same thing because you make the same silly assumptionsI
If the majority of sailplane pilots in the DFW area would not bow to the winch filter god, why would they travel to a contest, pay entry fees to lose, because of rejection of alternative launch system!! Obviously only one of us is sane.

[SmokinJoe101]

Austin Tx, RES
Lubock Nats,
Lincoln Nats,
Sequin Nats. (2)
Stanfield's funfly,
Albequerqque NM for HAM
To name a few.

.

Were any of the contests you attended in the last 15 years... :eek:

dam I got sucked in :censored:

sj

[liukku]

histarter
Why not start your own league that suit you and your followers?
If it turns out fun and popular people will participate.

/Ville

[yardflier]

Austin Tx, RES
Lubock Nats,
Lincoln Nats,
Sequin Nats. (2)
Stanfield's funfly,
Albequerqque NM for HAM
To name a few.

A discussion is not a rant! Whern you are disallowed, why travel?

I am saying the same thing because you make the same silly assumptionsI
If the majority of sailplane pilots in the DFW area would not bow to the winch filter god, why would they travel to a contest, pay entry fees to lose, because of rejection of alternative launch system!! Obviously only one of us is sane.

First of all, you were asked what contests have you competed in in the last 10 years. Stop slipping the question and answer it directly. You are not that slick.

Secondly, if the "majority of sailplane pilots in the DFW area would not bow to the winch filter god" why don't you have any success organizing the event you say will draw them in? You are contradicting yourself again.

[Twizter68]

Oh, God, guys, don't feed him....

[yardflier]

Oh, God, guys, don't feed him....

I say let's feed him here so other threads are not polluted by the same old "stuff".

Come on Histarter, if you want credibility you need to open up. How often do you fly? How often do you compete? How many contests have you attended in the last 10 years.

Don't bother with the double-speak. It is not going to work. Answer the questions directly and let's get on with it.

[jtlsf5]

Austin Tx, RES
Lubock Nats,
Lincoln Nats,
Sequin Nats. (2)
Stanfield's funfly,
Albequerqque NM for HAM
To name a few.

A discussion is not a rant! Whern you are disallowed, why travel?

I am saying the same thing because you make the same silly assumptionsI
If the majority of sailplane pilots in the DFW area would not bow to the winch filter god, why would they travel to a contest, pay entry fees to lose, because of rejection of alternative launch system!! Obviously only one of us is sane.



Read the request again. RECENT, 10 years. All your cites are 20+ years old. How can you claim to have any idea of what is happening today if all your experience is 2 plus decades old?

I challenge you again to list major events you can document that you have participated in during the last 10 years. Anything older is irrelevant for this request. Come on, show us that you have some real life experience and aren't once again living in your own dim past.

And you're right, only one of us is sane. Want to put it to a vote? I'm willing.

[atmosteve]

Whatever happened to flying and competing for the sheer love of it?
Used to be it was the comraderie, friendly rivalry and coming together to share the sport with others, to learn new stuff and generally treat your result not as a status thing, but more a PB challenge. Whatever the class it seemed that there was more than enough to learn and achieve already.
Threads like this make me feel older than i am...
steve, who would have to travel hundreds of km to compete again, but would like too.

[histarter]

I say let's feed him here so other threads are not polluted by the same old "stuff".

Come on Histarter, if you want credibility you need to open up. How often do you fly? How often do you compete? How many contests have you attended in the last 10 years.

Don't bother with the double-speak. It is not going to work. Answer the questions directly and let's get on with it.
I only listed contests in the last 10 years that were big enough for some kind of respect (an impossible situation for your partisan judgment). I keep telling you that for 20 years my area blackballed my contests, so I went on trips to NM to fly with Jim Simpson and helped stimulate his club from 50 to 80 members. Of course credits also goes to Dwayne Baade, and Dave Thornburg for their cooperation. [Note: Dave read and approved my manuscripts at the time.] Obviously that doesn't count by your measuring system that is trying to grade me on how many soaring parties I crashed (because I was not allowed to enter).

I bring up a point, and you ridicule my interests that I expound upon. My purpose is to improve soaring as a general, instead of selective, activity. Wherever I direct my arguments, you digress (obviously meaning I am correctly striking a nerve?) and respond immaturely with questions out of context, like the medieval inquisition. My basic claim is that thermal soaring contests should center upon duration, and not how well some Asian engineer executed a sophisticated (pretty) toy cheaply; copying good American engineering. You believe I am evangelistic attempting to start a cult, which is pure ignorance. Because you are in a cult, you believe other cults should be assembled, just as other tasks become necessary to do the same thing under different titles; done to guarantee the winning of something; that is so important to you!

I am old and crippled, attempting to regain enough strength to fly a Slow Stick without falling over. I water walk for 90 minute periods 3 times a week to fight neuropathy in my legs that is fueled by spinal stynosis and diabetes. I still love soaring, and wish that I could go out and fly my Shuttles – an entry-level machine that is very flexible. Those that I groomed for proxy flying my designs are now in the same boat as myself and/or have been displaced to other regions in America. So in your mindset it is your cult vs. my cult, and thus you win by strength in numbers, although not in logic!

I beg to have you try my system that evaluates skill of handling a normal curve situation, however those that do try (weakly), cheat and lie when they encounter any difficulty that blocks perfection, or they refuse to follow rules to prove some ridiculous point, or make a difficult task look simple – primarily to reinforce the fear in peers of getting a low score that only gives a reference to improve upon - while demonstrating improvements with design changes or skill level!

I have fewer problems in teaching a 6 year old how to fly precision acrobatics, trig, or play a Ukulele using jazz chords for harmony, then attempting to use logic with you. Credibility on your terms is impossible! :mad:

[Mark Miller]

Gee, Spoken like a true paranoid wanna be cult leader.

From what I can see none of the contests given were less than 10 years ago. You are trying to side step things again Al. Try giving the simple truth one in your life.

[Mark Miller]

Cal Posthuma being confined to a wheelchair has completed the LSF task series twice. He goes to many contests and is a past LSF president. If he can do it you have no excuse. Sounds like you are afraid of failure. I know of no CD who would not allow you to set up your own launch equipment. Come out and prove your reality.

[histarter]

Read the request again. RECENT, 10 years. All your cites are 20+ years old. How can you claim to have any idea of what is happening today if all your experience is 2 plus decades old?

I challenge you again to list major events you can document that you have participated in during the last 10 years. Anything older is irrelevant for this request. Come on, show us that you have some real life experience and aren't once again living in your own dim past.

And you're right, only one of us is sane. Want to put it to a vote? I'm willing.
Look, the contests were 1998 through 2005. Who are you to prosecute me? How about your list of contests from 1998 to 2005? I may have aced you out of a place, and thus should return the trophy because of your bravado! :(

I am dedicated to the GA age of aviation. Modern technology only shifted the operational velocity for the mass of a machine, nothing more, and the both can give equal duration in a duration contest. Open ended (no rules/limits) soaring, the modern machines are far superior to the old, but contests are not stupidly standing in a field watching a speck drift upwards. Having a pilot demonstrate his soaring skill by less than 2 minutes of working lift in a 10 minute slot is rediculous, especially with rule manipulations that create extreme selectivity on what you can fly for the (sacred) privilege of competition. This is the point, and stay away from pink elephants that can fly because they have a feather up their nose: like Walt's Dumbo.

[tonyestep]

Al, you are trying to revolutionize everybody's attitude toward soaring. That would a tough sell even if you were regarded as a singularly informed and expert participant, someone on the level of Herrig or Drela or Wurts or Perkins or Hobby or Kolb.

I think the point that the guys are making, and that you are not addressing, is this:
They not only don't view you as a top expert, they don't think you have anything whatever to contribute to anybody's knowledge of soaring, because you don't seem to actually know the first thing about it. They are suggesting, not unreasonably, that maybe you could describe some actual first-hand experience that would help you establish a little credibility.

[Mark Miller]

Lubock Nats,
Lincoln Nats,
Sequin Nats. (2)

These were held between 1998 and 2005?

[histarter]

Al, you are trying to revolutionize everybody's attitude toward soaring. That would a tough sell even if you were regarded as a singularly informed and expert participant, someone on the level of Herrig or Drela or Wurts or Perkins or Hobby or Kolb.

I think the point that the guys are making, and that you are not addressing, is this:
They not only don't view you as a top expert, they don't think you have anything whatever to contribute to anybody's knowledge of soaring, because you don't seem to actually know the first thing about it. RCSD gave me credit for the best description of how an aircraft flys in my copy of GA. I wrote the first dive test for the NSS. Tell me that my blog is all BS They are suggesting, not unreasonably, that maybe you could describe some actual first-hand experience that would help you establish a little credibility.
Credibility? My life is open yet you act like I am a newbie because I do not believe your way is right; and everytime some hotshot came to my contests (you are free to check with AMA records on this) and lost, only to bad mouth the handling of the event because a 3 hp winch was off limits demonstrates your kind of blindness to the subject, that you are unable to debate directly - thus the you dodge with your interests of the messenger's credibility. This only demonstrates how deep you are in cultism.

[ozmo01]

Seems there is PLENTIFUL troll food around here. Its just like the signs in the national parks "don't feed the bears". Its for your own safety. :rolleyes: LOL

[Mark Miller]

Al,

You have not answered anyones questions. Tell us why we should believe you since you have no experience in the modern soaring world?

[Curare]

Precision Aerobatics to a six year old?

Which schedule?

[jtlsf5]

Lubock Nats,
Lincoln Nats,
Sequin Nats. (2)

These were held between 1998 and 2005?

Mark,
You know the answer. Lubock 1993, Lincoln 1987, Seguin pre-1983. This nut case is lost in space AND time. Seems like HAM should be changed to BSM.

[Twizter68]

Al, the problem is as I've told you before; it's not what you're selling, it's how you're selling it. Coming out and denigrating your target audience closes most minds from the start. LEARN SOME TACT. You keep coming acroos as a bitter, tired old man with a chip on your shoulder....lose the attitude, and MAYBE someone might listen.

[Mark Miller]

Jim,

I approach this like a lawyer. I do not ask a question that I do not know the answer. Can't wait to get to Muncie to spend the week flying.

Twiz, you have hit the nail on the head. Al has a unique idea that might be fun to experiment with. But to promote it as the only real way to test skill in ridiculous. Plus Al asks that we blindly respect his views while he shows nothing but contempt for those who question him or do not give our faith to him. Cult leader 101.

BTW Al, we are not prosecuting you. This has nothing to do with a court of law. We are asking questions which go unanswered. Your method of discussion is to talk but say nothing. Your blog/manifesto is a work with a lot of words that says nothing. The good thing is that no trees were felled to print those words. Like a lot of engineers you suffer from not being able to communicate and lack the ability to find yourself wrong.

[Twizter68]

Your method of discussion is to talk but say nothing. Your blog/manifesto is a work with a lot of words that says nothing. The good thing is that no trees were felled to print those words. Like a lot of engineers you suffer from not being able to communicate and lack the ability to find yourself wrong.

That's why engineering companies have Technical Writers.

[IBWALT]

I'm going to have to take Al's side here. To me it is quite obvious that Al's inability to keep track of time is a fundamental indicator of short term memory loss. Some might call it dementia, senility or an indicator of the onset of Alzheimer's. But whatever the cause it is highly insensitive of us to keep poking fun at this poor sole.

Even if his ideas of a Utopian soaring world where everyone flies by themselves from underpowered high starts, with box like ships and only keeps track of any perceived progress with statistical calculations are grounds for a really good grin if not an all out laugh. We should restrain ourselves and just let Al rant to himself.

So don't feed the troll. Think of it as our good deed. :)

Walt

[yardflier]

Think of it as our good deed. :)

Walt

Exactly right, Walt! My theory is that since Al is unable to fly at this point in his life, he is looking for soaring fulfillment through his pursuit of low power, short launch as a philosophy. I honestly think he draws pleasure from the give and take of trying to push his vision of soaring nirvana.

It is kind to engage what is obviously a very active mind plus it keeps other threads ham free if we can keep his energies focused on one thread. ;)

Al, Did you ever consider the reason people don't want to play your game is because it is boring? You are eliminating two out of the three parts of modern task oriented soaring. We love mastering the launch. We love precision landing. And yes, we love soaring. Despite of what you like to think, modern sailplanes are not automatic. It still takes a lot of skill to make a 10 minute flight. I attend a lot of contests and 90%+ of participants do not max every flight.

If you can show up at a number of modern contest with any plane you choose, fly every round and make every time, I will listen to you. Otherwise, you are smoking crack, my friend! :)

[jrerickson]

Al,

This is from another forum here on RC Groups.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=857346

Some very devoted pilots have been pushing the limits of design, construction and flying. They have model 100" sailplane recorded at 357 mph, just being propelled by the forces of nature. Who would have thought that possible? I applaud their efforts, especially since there will be fallout from their technological advances, such as advanced spar systems and flutter resistance.

Isn't this great progress? Many ways up the mountain, so to speak.

JE

[jtlsf5]

Al,

This is from another forum here on RC Groups.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=857346

Some very devoted pilots have been pushing the limits of design, construction and flying. They have model 100" sailplane recorded at 357 mph, just being propelled by the forces of nature. Who would have thought that possible? I applaud their efforts, especially since there will be fallout from their technological advances, such as advanced spar systems and flutter resistance.

Isn't this great progress? Many ways up the mountain, so to speak.

JE


Yes, but the next thing you'll hear is that the only fair way to launch such a plane is with a #64 rubber band. Otherwise its not fair to all the other little people that blindly follow the Pied Piper over the cliff.
JT

[histarter]

I'm going to have to take Al's side here. To me it is quite obvious that Al's inability to keep track of time is a fundamental indicator of short term memory loss. Some might call it dementia, senility or an indicator of the onset of Alzheimer's. But whatever the cause it is highly insensitive of us to keep poking fun at this poor sole.

We should restrain ourselves and just let Al rant to himself.

So don't feed the troll. Think of it as our good deed. :)

Walt
Very observant Walt, and very close to the mark. Short-term memory and learning ability weakness is part of the aging cycle. I now have to use lots of discipline to keep up to speed with new developments because of the degeneration of short term memory. I appreciate your concern; however, you have to also realize that the geriatric problem cuts two ways! The muggers on this thread have more or less the same problem, but without enforced (engineering) discipline! They are so terrified with learning a new approach to soaring (that never was learned before their advancement occurred) that they stumble over themselves frantically overreacting to an approach - just like your erroneous evaluation of my situation concerning - “Even if his ideas of a Utopian soaring world where everyone flies by themselves from underpowered high starts, with box like ships and only keeps track of any perceived progress with statistical calculations are grounds for a really good grin if not an all out laugh”. This is right on base with the original ideals of thermal soaring, whereas MOM is personal egotism, and not part of scientific soaring. So we are back to experts not taking responsibilities for their own endeavors, while putting up the filter so that their lofty position is preserved.

I love hi-tech when it is properly applied i.e. all the attributes of MPVS (check blog article) are controlled.

My definition of an expert is one who can go to a modern TD contest, launch a reinforced 2 ch GL by histart (for example; because launch would be higher than the overpowering club winch) and win! Obviously the expert has to be more skilled than myself for this task. I do believe Joe Wurts is totally capable; but without any reports on landing points, or desire for the task to be recorded from Jack Womach, he remains a dark horse (in spite of his spectacular claim). At my peak (that I use for comparisons to the modern world) I would still need luck to place, and that is why I never was an expert by needing all the assistance I could get by designing for duration ~ with comfort.

[yardflier]

They are so terrified with learning a new approach to soaring....So we are back to experts not taking responsibilities for their own endeavors, while putting up the filter so that their lofty position is preserved.

My definition of an expert...

Al, Terrified? What are you smoking? Soaring is a hobby... What is there to be terrified off? Please try to understand, people don't want to try your approach because it detracts from the hobby. It's like eliminating appetizers and deserts from a menu because a meal should be all about the entree! :(

We want and can have soaring as well as launching and landing fun. We will not abandon these enjoyable parts of the hobby just because someone shows up and says "my way is better and if you don't do what I say I'll call you childish names and say you are scared". Sorry, you need to do better than that.

Why are you so wrapped up with titles and perceptions of prestige? Again, soaring is a hobby. Who cares about what you or anyone else's personal idea of an expert is? We do this for fun. Nobody is getting rich flying sailplanes.

Relax, enjoy and let others enjoy.

[bobby legue]

I will take the statement about Jack Womack as being a dark horse a slap in the face. If Jack said it then by God thats what happened. I am lucky enough to be a friend of Jack and if he said so then thats all I need. He wasnt claiming a prize here, he was just reporting a great day of flying. I will invite you Al to stand down and let things be what they may.
Bob

[Hostage-46]

I was wondering when one of these would show up again....

bets on how long to an offending remark that triggers a temporary ban?

Lets see, we're at 33, I'll go with 134...

[schrederman]

I would think if you're going to figuratively call me a liar on line, that you, with your obviously superior knowledge of the English language, could at least spell my name correctly. You issued a challenge. I more than met it. My write up about it was not about me and my abilities, but about a day with the most amazing soaring conditions I have ever witnessed. I quite frankly don't care if you believe it or not. I do not, however, like to be called a liar. We agreed off line to leave each other alone. I said I didn't think you could handle it... and you couldn't. You're in your second childhood, apparently, and a spoiled childhood at that. All you want is attention, and you don't care if it's positive or negative. Please leave me out of your posts as we agreed.

Jack W - O - M - A - C - K

[histarter]

Al, Terrified? What are you smoking? Soaring is a hobby... What is there to be terrified off? Please try to understand, people don't want to try your approach because it detracts from the hobby. It's like eliminating appetizers and deserts from a menu because a meal should be all about the entree! :(

We want and can have soaring as well as launching and landing fun. We will not abandon these enjoyable parts of the hobby just because someone shows up and says "my way is better and if you don't do what I say I'll call you childish names and say you are scared". Sorry, you need to do better than that.

Why are you so wrapped up with titles and perceptions of prestige? Again, soaring is a hobby. Who cares about what you or anyone else's personal idea of an expert is? We do this for fun. Nobody is getting rich flying sailplanes.

Relax, enjoy and let others enjoy.
Now you are using my argument. How many flying wings or canards have you seen in competition? Although the CG is in front of the MAC, they do have lots of soaring potential. If one were truly seeking fun with competition as claimed, the winch power would not restrict them from entering the FUN. Unfortunately the CG before MAC = oscillator, with resonance generated by tension and velocity. :cool:

Yardflier, I am not truly addressing this post to you, but to the readers to see the argument first hand! After fighting CDs for 20 years to give me the option to use my equipment to launch my sailplanes, it is now finally agreed to ~ but as an ipso facto statement. Meaning I was supposed to crash the contests, demand my rights to launch, and you believe they would meekly permit me to attempt to place at their meet. [Obviously your thought here is designed to make me responsible for the CD’s discrimination!] :rolleyes:

Now! I promise to back off if you will admit that you prefer status quo, that you feel you worked hard to get where you are. And that you don’t give a damn how much higher the bar is raised in order to prevent newcomers to ‘dampen your star power’. [Yes, I bet you’re going to repeat my argument that this is an avocation and not a profession, because it now fits your justifications.]

With your posted admission of guilt through peer pressure, the plea-bargaining has been sated with a logical response (finally), and I am through!

Fair enough? :cool:

PS At 15 lbs of launch tension, and lighter lines, your talking about 30 seconds of an aircraft's dead air time, that would be impossed upon all entries. ;)
You call this attitude discriminatory because it doesn't permit you "to be special" with a reverse swan dive off the tow. :D

[jtlsf5]

Still waiting patiently for you to validate your claim to being the expert on all things to do with competition. Haven't seen you document any major competition that you have participated in from the last 10 years.

Kind of sounds like you've been sitting on your rear end dreaming and fantasizing about soaring competition instead of doing it. That leads to an active fantasy life, but not a very practical one.

And what happened to the sanity vote challenge? Scared off by that too?

[histarter]

I will take the statement about Jack Womack as being a dark horse a slap in the face. If Jack said it then by God thats what happened. I am lucky enough to be a friend of Jack and if he said so then thats all I need. He wasnt claiming a prize here, he was just reporting a great day of flying. I will invite you Al to stand down and let things be what they may.
Bob
I use the term dark horse because of lack of confidence of repeatability (i.e. in competition) of his amazing stunt. I have flown 9 out of 12 maxes in HAM and am aware of the statistics against it (of course the mathematicians that do not fly are stupid). :o

Joe Wurts, Skip Miller, Lamon Payne, and Dave Thornburg, I (personally) believe have the skill to win at TD with a reinforced GL. [My opinion - if allowed] :rolleyes:

[histarter]

Still waiting patiently for you to validate your claim to being the expert on all things to do with competition. Haven't seen you document any major competition that you have participated in from the last 10 years.

Kind of sounds like you've been sitting on your rear end dreaming and fantasizing about soaring competition instead of doing it. That leads to an active fantasy life, but not a very practical one.

And what happened to the sanity vote challenge? Scared off by that too?
You are BSing here. Go back to your original question that banned all competition less than 100 miles from home. :rolleyes:
Again, why would I attend your contests out of state, when I am not allowed to launch? Who are you to create a selective question, refuse to see broad- banded answers, and then ridicule someone out of context of the discussion point! Are you ready to sign the contract posted? :D

[tonyestep]

Al, you may wonder why you have no credibility. Even though you have no soaring credentials, that is not the fundamental reason that readers of these threads find your arguments to be empty and without merit. There are actually two different sources of your credibility problem. Sometimes those who post here refer to one, sometimes to the other. They are related but not the same.

First, your ideas. They have no credibility because they are grounded in presuppositions that are factually wrong on their face. For example, you post that "Obviously at low launch the Supra with world champ pilot only has a very slim chance against an experienced 'John Average' GL pilot." Every single sailplane pilot in the world knows from personal observation that this assertion is false. You only deepen your credibility abyss by attempting to prove this and similar statements with numerical gibberish that you call "math." In short, every single premise on which your low-launch religion is based is easily seen to be false by anyone who is actually active in this sport.

The other facet of your lack of credibility lies in the way you present your arguments. You seethe with hostility toward others who post, and your hostility often boils over into unwarranted personal attacks and name-calling. You don't seem to be able to comprehend any legitimate questions or counter-arguments, but simply fly off into various rants about cults and delusions.

You claim to know something about statistics, even though as a professional statistician I can tell you that your comments on this topic display a massive ignorance of even the simplest aspects of statistical analysis. Be that as it may, here's a statistical question for you: If you have made N posts, and the number of readers who once thought there might be some merit to your assertions has declined from J to J-X, and appears to be approaching zero in the limit, what is the number of additional posts you need to make before probability that everybody will change their mind rises to greater than 50%?

[histarter]

Al, you may wonder why you have no credibility. Even though you have no soaring credentials, that is not the fundamental reason that readers of these threads find your arguments to be empty and without merit. There are actually two different sources of your credibility problem. Sometimes those who post here refer to one, sometimes to the other. They are related but not the same.

First, your ideas. They have no credibility because they are grounded in presuppositions that are factually wrong on their face. For example, you post that "Obviously at low launch the Supra with world champ pilot only has a very slim chance against an experienced 'John Average' GL pilot." Every single sailplane pilot in the world knows from personal observation that this assertion is false. You only deepen your credibility abyss by attempting to prove this and similar statements with numerical gibberish that you call "math." In short, every single premise on which your low-launch religion is based is easily seen to be false by anyone who is actually active in this sport.

The other facet of your lack of credibility lies in the way you present your arguments. You seethe with hostility toward others who post, and your hostility often boils over into unwarranted personal attacks and name-calling. You don't seem to be able to comprehend any legitimate questions or counter-arguments, but simply fly off into various rants about cults and delusions.

You claim to know something about statistics, even though as a professional statistician I can tell you that your comments on this topic display a massive ignorance of even the simplest aspects of statistical analysis. Be that as it may, here's a statistical question for you: If you have made N posts, and the number of readers who once thought there might be some merit to your assertions has declined from J to J-X, and appears to be approaching zero in the limit, what is the number of additional posts you need to make before probability that everybody will change their mind rises to greater than 50%?
Beat you to it by simply setting up a poll. You’re a bit slow. :D Will you admit your PP lost to Ryan's Paragon? :rolleyes: Next time, stick to the rules and you will be burned even better. :D

The 'secret fact' is the old flat bottom is tuned for a lower airspeed that permits the large Paragon to spiral a lot tighter than the PP to fit smaller thermals. If you will use your formulas for BA and Spiral diameter with the airspeeds you fly at, you will see what I am talking about.
Naw, you would rather dream of flying at the perfect theoretical airspeed for max LD and project your findings accordingly. [The truth is that no one is capable of precisely flying at max LD! Nor can a grounded pilot fly a coordinated turn.]

[jtlsf5]

You are BSing here. Go back to your original question that banned all competition less than 100 miles from home. :rolleyes:
Again, why would I attend your contests out of state, when I am not allowed to launch? Who are you to create a selective question, refuse to see broad- banded answers, and then ridicule someone out of context of the discussion point! Are you ready to sign the contract posted? :D


Okay, I bow to the undisputed king of the BSers.

And who doesn't allow you to launch? Those mythical bad guys that provide the bane of your existance, a winch, for contestants to use? I have been the LSF-AMA Nats Flightline director for nearly 15 years (and that is a verifiable fact, not one of your fantasy-facts), and I've never seen your sorry carcass show up and compete. Too big a contest for you to lower yourself to compete in?

Once again, BS-Master, put your self-proclaimed skills to the test. Show up and use your wimpy high start and show us uninformed winch-worshipping infidels how its done.

Until you can provide more than your standard line of verbal crap, you really have nothing of value to add to most discussions.

[histarter]

Okay, I bow to the undisputed king of the BSers.

And who doesn't allow you to launch? Those mythical bad guys that provide the bane of your existance, a winch, for contestants to use? I have been the LSF-AMA Nats Flightline director for nearly 15 years (and that is a verifiable fact, not one of your fantasy-facts), and I've never seen your sorry carcass show up and compete. Too big a contest for you to lower yourself to compete in?

Once again, BS-Master, put your self-proclaimed skills to the test. Show up and use your wimpy high start and show us uninformed winch-worshipping infidels how its done.

Until you can provide more than your standard line of verbal crap, you really have nothing of value to add to most discussions.
1. I never claimed my system better, just fairer!
2. I claimed that more soaring pressure is needed to prevent the task from being conditional (which it now is).
3. I spent too many years driving to meets to demonstrate the HAM system that requires discipline, and too many folk would prefer to bore holes, and not practice for the gaining the knack (contest skill). They rather obtain the knack by osmosis, or through breeding!
4. You would be less derogatory if you stayed on point instead of feeding your ego.
5. I would prefer to list the CD's that would permit me to launch (conciderably smaller number).

[Twizter68]

Al, check your e-mail.

[Bryan Quick]

Al-
I went out and flew HAM this past week. Please take a look at my analysis and tell me what you think:

[schrederman]

OK... 1.5 polls... are posted for your voting pleasure. :rolleyes: Somehow I don't think either one will be as tight as the Democratic Primaries have been... :p

[tonyestep]

Bryan, send your score card to the official pattern-recognition Warring Calculus kicksort Shewhart Bell-Curve Cyberanalytical team and they will tell you what it means.

[schrederman]

Man... Cola hurts when forced out the nostrils to cover the keyboard, screen, etc... You guys are killin' me!

[Twizter68]

Bryan, send your score card to the official pattern-recognition Warring Calculus kicksort Shewhart Bell-Curve Cyberanalytical team and they will tell you what it means.


Don't forget to include the ID-10T1C form with it.....

[OVSS Boss]

Jack, stop drinking coke when you are at the computer, please!

[tonyestep]

So I ask again: If you have made N posts, and the number of readers R who once thought there might be some merit to your assertions has declined from J to J-X, where X appears to be a monotonically increasing function of N, and R appears to be approaching zero in the limit, what is the number of additional posts you need to make before probability that everybody will change their mind rises to greater than 50%?

After you've solved that one, here's another statistical question. Suppose you have a poll with two possible votes, call them T and F. You prior assumption is that more than half of the voters will choose T, that is, that P(T)>0.5. You observe the first M votes, which are all F, i.e. in the sub-sample observed so far, P(T)=0 and P(F)=1. But this is a sub-sample, and there is still a certain probability that your hypothesis is true for the total sample. What is the probability that your hypothesis is true, as a function of M? In particular, when M=25 and all voters observed so far have selected option F, what is the probability that the majority of the total sample will select T?

[amd123]

Histarter --- I am a CD with AMA, I welcome any and all accepted launch methods (winch, histart, or hand launch) at my contests. I encourage the beginners to use the method that they are most comfortable with. I have yet to have anyone use handlaunch for TD tasks, but I would allow it. I even set up a histart if my two neighbor kids want to launch by that method. Your assertion that histarts are not allowed by CD's is a bunch of bunk.

Alan Dolley

[histarter]

Histarter --- I am a CD with AMA, I welcome any and all accepted launch methods (winch, histart, or hand launch) at my contests. I encourage the beginners to use the method that they are most comfortable with. I have yet to have anyone use handlaunch for TD tasks, but I would allow it. I even set up a histart if my two neighbor kids want to launch by that method. Your assertion that histarts are not allowed by CD's is a bunch of bunk.

Alan Dolley
You're an ipso facto claim. Modern legal thinking is to change a law 3 weeks ago, and then prosecute for a 20 year old crime!

[Mark Miller]

Alan,

You are a CD, ipso facto you are being painted with the same brush Al used to compare some CDs in Texas 30 years ago to the KKK in a post recently. He felt slighted by them all these many years ago and is still trying to get even with them and soaring in general. To bad he has nothing more important to do with his time.

[histarter]

Alan,

You are a CD, ipso facto you are being painted with the same brush Al used to compare some CDs in Texas 30 years ago to the KKK in a post recently. He felt slighted by them all these many years ago and is still trying to get even with them and soaring in general. To bad he has nothing more important to do with his time.
Mark, I agree totally - while realizing the intensity of overpowerment to remain status quo!

Finally gaining launch acceptance that one can now bring their light duty equipment out, use the legal AMA 300 meter limit, and out launch the expert's "Dive and Swoop" technology at the big contests - so I have won something - I believe! Back to the Band! Bye! :D :D

[Back in the 90's my Plate Wing tripped Viking would be a smidgeon shy of 10 min. (consistantly with practice) launched in the evening hours (calm air). I suspect Hitech would do better off the same launch setup, with 40lb test line, or better yet, with monofiliment!] ;) Too bad I am no longer selling my 1/6 hp winch system for $212.

[yardflier]

one can now bring their light duty equipment out, use the legal AMA 300 meter limit

Al !!! You are now proposing to use a 300 meter winch line!?!?! :eek: What happen to all that low launching philosophy you were so vociferously promoting!

BTW, don't fool yourself. If a molded plane use 300 meter lines, it would out-launch your whatever by 500 feet!

[histarter]

Al !!! You are now proposing to use a 300 meter winch line!?!?! :eek: What happen to all that low launching philosophy you were so vociferously promoting!

BTW, don't fool yourself. If a molded plane use 300 meter lines, it would out-launch your whatever by 500 feet!
Why do you jump to your own conclusions witout reading what I said. If the CD's will allow one to bring their own launch equipment that is AMA legal, then Chuck Anderson (as an example) can bring out his Sailair with a captive hook on a breezy day using a histart, and outlaunch the hitech'rs that use only 650 (quoted) feet of real estate. Attempting to use 984 feet to turnaround to compensate would not work because of excessive line drag and mass loading for the overly thin profiles, that are now forced to carry some ballast to move around after the launch.

Of course I am an ignorant savage that knows nothing about soaring! Hope that saves you the trouble of responding. :rolleyes:

[The majority does not know the mortality rate of the Indian wars was 5 to one -- with Indians being the winner! This was before the great extermination, and was one of the reasons for it.]

[jtlsf5]

Of course I am an ignorant savage that knows nothing about soaring!


Finally the truth comes out. About time...

[yardflier]

Attempting to use 984 feet to turnaround to compensate would not work because of excessive line drag and mass loading for the overly thin profiles

You called yourself ignorant. I did not. However, your lack of familiarity with modern planes (call it ignorance, if you so prefer) is glaringly exemplefied by your statement above. Obviously you have never seen a Pike Perfect, to name just one plane, launch. The pulling power the Perfect has will easily lift 1,000 feet of line. In fact, the biggest problem most of us have with the Perfect is preventing it from breaking 250 lb test line. It will break 250 lb line almost everytime if you are not very careful.

Al, you need to get out to the flying field more often. You have no clue what modern planes are capable of and it shows.

[Mark Miller]

JT,

The truth has been out for a long long time. He is just admitting to it now.

[tonyestep]

Yardflier's excellent post makes a point that has been raised many times in these discussions. It would be good to have some practical experience with model sailplanes, or at least minimal theoretical understanding, or both, when you talk about their flight characteristics. One Saturday at any flying field would show that it's absurd to assert that a model sailplane can't lift 300 meters of line (not that anybody would want to do it).

Even if you have never flown one and never expect to, you could figure it out. A Pike Perfect has 8.2 sq ft of wing area and an average chord of, say, 9 inches. At 70 mph, the Reynolds number on average is 489,000. With launch flaps deployed, the wing can develop a CL way in excess of 1.0. But let's use 1.0, just to be conservative. Then the lift is:

1/2*rho*V^2*S*CL = 102 lbs where rho = .002378

This is plenty to lift 1000 feet of line if anybody wanted to. And obviously there could be a headwind, or the speed could be faster, or you could trim the plane to pull harder (i.e. higher CL), or all three. As Yardflier sez, most large planes can break 250 lb line.

[histarter]

Yardflier's excellent post makes a point that has been raised many times in these discussions. It would be good to have some practical experience with model sailplanes, or at least minimal theoretical understanding, or both, when you talk about their flight characteristics. One Saturday at any flying field would show that it's absurd to assert that a model sailplane can't lift 300 meters of line (not that anybody would want to do it).

Even if you have never flown one and never expect to, you could figure it out. A Pike Perfect has 8.2 sq ft of wing area and an average chord of, say, 9 inches. At 70 mph, the Reynolds number on average is 489,000. With launch flaps deployed, the wing can develop a CL way in excess of 1.0. But let's use 1.0, just to be conservative. Then the lift is:

1/2*rho*V^2*S*CL = 102 lbs where rho = .002378
This is plenty to lift 1000 feet of line if anybody wanted to. And obviously there could be a headwind, or the speed could be faster, or you could trim the plane to pull harder (i.e. higher CL), or all three. As Yardflier sez, most large planes can break 250 lb line.
I am sorry but you are breaking me up with your math!
1. Flaps deployed CL would squeak over 1.2 max.
2. With a fat 200 meter cable dangling from its belly, and 120 lbs tangential force of the winch - there is no way the wing can resist slippage! It is not a Sailaire with a hi volume wing that has almost 2X times area (S) and 50% more CL. So 70 mph is a dream in your state of affairs.
3. Draw velocity of the winch; 2"*pi*2k rpm*60/12*5280 = 12 mph, with LD about 4 (with slippage) making V closer to 48 mph. Now with it corrected for the 80 degree tow position, the tangential drag down dive for the zoom is like driving with the choke on! What I am basically saying is the PP needs to be twice as large to make your dreams come true.

Tony, you are a good mathematician, but a little too puritan in handling figures. You believe you can fly at max LD - even though it is common knowledge that no one does, or is able to. You probably believe in the idealism of coordinated turns that is impossible without an on-board computer, or pilot. Loosen up my friend and enjoy the real world using your math to integrate your adventures, rather then differentiate them for perfection! Us old timers think of 48 mph as "lickety split"! :D

[tonyestep]

If the CL is indeed 1.2, the lift is 120 lbs, not 100.

If the winch RPM is indeed 2000 and the drum diameter is 5", the line is coming in at 30 mph. Actually, on our winch with about 1/3 of the line reeled in, the drum diameter is 7".

The speed of the plane is the line speed / cos(climb angle). So if the climb angle was actually 80 degrees, which it's not, and the line speed is 30 mph, the plane's speed would be 171 mph.

However, since the actual drum diameter is 7" and the climb angle is probably more like 60 degrees, the plane's speed works out to 84 mph, a more reasonable figure.

These forums have many, many Zlog posts of launches. Here is a particularly good one, posted by Jurgen.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1836395

He was on tow for 5.5 seconds. Distance to the turnaround was 175 yards.

In the 5.5 seconds he gains 133 meters, or 436 feet, in 5.5 seconds, for an average vertical velocity of 79 ft/sec (54 mph). Of course, the plane is going up at an angle, not climbing vertically. If it climbs at 60 degrees, its average velocity is 63 mph. It starts at zero and accelerates over the first couple of seconds, so again the 84 mph at the end of the tow seems pretty reasonable. This launch was made with a 1.1 HP F3B winch with series resistor.

Now let's look at the zoom. The height attained by something thrown straight up is: H = V^2 / 2g, so to find velocity we can say V = sqrt(2gH).

Now Jurgen zooms from 133 meters to 219 meters, a gain of 86 meters or 282 feet. He actually gained more, because we're neglecting the dive. His initial velocity at the beginning of the zoom was, at a minimum, 160 ft/sec or 109 mph.

I say at a minimum because there is energy lost in the pullup from dive to climb, because the climb isn't vertical, and because when he rounds over at the top, velocity isn't zero; it's the plane's normal glide speed of around 30 ft/sec.

So he starts at zero, climbs at some speed in the range of 80 mph, dives until he's going more than 109 mph, and zooms. Nice launch, Jurgen!

[StevenatorLTFO]

I wish I had half the grasp of math of some of you guys!!!

Steve

[histarter]

If the CL is indeed 1.2, the lift is 120 lbs, not 100.

If the winch RPM is indeed 2000 and the drum diameter is 5", the line is coming in at 30 mph. Actually, on our winch with about 1/3 of the line reeled in, the drum diameter is 7".

The speed of the plane is the line speed / cos(climb angle). So if the climb angle was actually 80 degrees, which it's not, and the line speed is 30 mph, the plane's speed would be 171 mph.

However, since the actual drum diameter is 7" and the climb angle is probably more like 60 degrees, the plane's speed works out to 84 mph, a more reasonable figure.

These forums have many, many Zlog posts of launches. Here is a particularly good one, posted by Jurgen.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1836395

He was on tow for 5.5 seconds. Distance to the turnaround was 175 yards.

In the 5.5 seconds he gains 133 meters, or 436 feet, in 5.5 seconds, for an average vertical velocity of 79 ft/sec (54 mph). Of course, the plane is going up at an angle, not climbing vertically. If it climbs at 60 degrees, its average velocity is 63 mph. It starts at zero and accelerates over the first couple of seconds, so again the 84 mph at the end of the tow seems pretty reasonable. This launch was made with a 1.1 HP F3B winch with series resistor.

Now let's look at the zoom. The height attained by something thrown straight up is: H = V^2 / 2g, so to find velocity we can say V = sqrt(2gH).

Now Jurgen zooms from 133 meters to 219 meters, a gain of 86 meters or 282 feet. He actually gained more, because we're neglecting the dive. His initial velocity at the beginning of the zoom was, at a minimum, 160 ft/sec or 109 mph.

I say at a minimum because there is energy lost in the pullup from dive to climb, because the climb isn't vertical, and because when he rounds over at the top, velocity isn't zero; it's the plane's normal glide speed of around 30 ft/sec.

So he starts at zero, climbs at some speed in the range of 80 mph, dives until he's going more than 109 mph, and zooms. Nice launch, Jurgen!
Apparently you like to change design to match your math. Saturday I met with the project engineer of Fisher Motors and had a similar struggle with his stress and inertia force mathematicians. Thank goodness simplicity won!!

Now lets look at your 219 meter launch (without jumping about to mix in other variables). The hub is now 5 inches to start for a 30 mph draw velocity. The system pulled it up to 133 meters The sailplane has a velocity of more than 55 mph (yet its glide speed is 20 mph). Drag is square law so if a captive hook was used and released timely, the resulting altitude would be just about the same 200 meters plus or minus 10 %. The difference is that less stress and hp is needed to accomplish about the same thing. This relates to lighter lines being usable for better aerodynamic performance, and thus one should be able to top 219 feet with the same type of equipment. Less stress means more design improvements for superior performance and duration is now available. Win-win! Whereas Tony's system is jerk, jerk it up to a speed many times greater than thermal velocity.

Hi tech approach to launch: [The bigger motor approach is crude and caveman (oops sorry fellas)]

Use a ¼ hp industrial grade PM motor. 3 inch hub for line (400 meters 50 lb test spliced onto 200 meter 4 mil CF line (don't fly in a thunderstorm, or use mono 45 lb instead)). Now we are talking shoving Jurgen's sailplane above 240 meters in a more sedate and respectful manner.

Leave the race car attitude with the professionals! :D

[Hostage-46]

As entertaining as this tripe is .... what a fantastic contest we had at SLNT today. Man on man, 6 winches, all close enough, short lines. Challenging air, good friends.

The high point was the heat where we watched two pike perfects, with only 5 min into a 10 min task both catch a bump at less then 10 feet, and spin it back up for a complete 10min maxing out at no more then 100 feet.

And here I thought high tech moldies couldn't fly in light lift down low... at least there was some sort of formula going around say in as much. HA who says RC soaring isn't a spectator sport!

To think you could have come out to fly with us Al ... oh well

Thermals from Big D everyone!

[histarter]

As entertaining as this tripe is .... what a fantastic contest we had at SLNT today. Man on man, 6 winches, all close enough, short lines. Challenging air, good friends.

The high point was the heat where we watched two pike perfects, with only 5 min into a 10 min task both catch a bump at less then 10 feet, and spin it back up for a complete 10min maxing out at no more then 100 feet.

And here I thought high tech moldies couldn't fly in light lift down low... at least there was some sort of formula going around say in as much. HA who says RC soaring isn't a spectator sport!

To think you could have come out to fly with us Al ... oh well

Thermals from Big D everyone!
I love these kinds of storys. But the thought remains, "how did they get to 10 feet altitude after only 5 minutes to require so much pilot skill (or luck) to recover? Seriously, I wish I was there to enjoy the frolic.

[yardflier]

how did they get to 10 feet altitude after only 5 minutes to require so much pilot skill (or luck) to recover?

It is only in the minds of people who don't fly contests or modern planes that Perfects, Supras and other similar sailplanes can float around for 10 minutes from your typical launch without finding any lift.

How did they get to 10 feet in 5 minutes? Easily: They did not locate lift! It happens all the time to even the best pilots. There is still a great deal of air reading and efficient flying that is required to insure 10 minute flights. Just go out there, launch a Perfect, just fly around and you will be on the ground well before the 10 minutes are up.

Come to the field more often, maybe ask somebody to let you fly his Perfect, fly it around and see if there is an automatic 10 minutes built into the plane. It ain't there. I see enough people,of all different skill levels, flying in competion and they ALL struggle for lift at some point. Heck, I've even seen Tom Kiesling get 6 minutes on a 10 minute round and Tom is as good as they come.

[liukku]

regret

/Ville

[jrerickson]

It is only in the minds of people who don't fly contests or modern planes that Perfects, Supras and other similar sailplanes can float around for 10 minutes from your typical launch without finding any lift.

How did they get to 10 feet in 5 minutes? Easily: They did not locate lift! It happens all the time to even the best pilots. There is still a great deal of air reading and efficient flying that is required to insure 10 minute flights. Just go out there, launch a Perfect, just fly around and you will be on the ground well before the 10 minutes are up.

Come to the field more often, maybe ask somebody to let you fly his Perfect, fly it around and see if there is an automatic 10 minutes built into the plane. It ain't there. I see enough people,of all different skill levels, flying in competion and they ALL struggle for lift at some point. Heck, I've even seen Tom Kiesling get 6 minutes on a 10 minute round and Tom is as good as they come.

Well said. If this discussion could shift from launching methods, statistical analysis and gross generalizations to thermal detection and strategy we might get somewhere.

I'd like to see Al go up to his hi start in a contest setting. There is a gaggle of Gentle Ladies going up in a thermal, but it is far downwind from the field. There is one brave soul running towards the thermal but he hasn't hit any lift yet. The CD tells Hi Starter to launch. Where does he go? Does he try to run to the proven lift, or does he venture out on his own? What direction does he take?

This scenario was played out over and over again at the Visalia Bent Wing contest last weekend. 50 pilots flying everything from Topaz and Ava's to a Spirit 2M, some Bird of Times and a War Eagle or two. Yes, all were winch launched, but with judicious use of the pedal you can tap up just about any plane. That part of the flight was nearly inconsequential. What mattered was your first flight decision. Left or right, upwind or downwind.

The worst flights occurred when guys halfway committed to a downwind thermal and then broke it off. The ensuing heavy sink gobbled up many a plane, especially since these floaters do not have the legs of an open ship. Sometimes the culprit wasn't sink, it was the eyes or the nerves of the pilot. There are times when the only way to make your time is to completely commit to the thermal and hope it continues to build. Other times the quick recognition that the lift is not forming and you need to get out of there NOW is what separates a top finisher from an also ran.

It's sad that there is so much rhetoric and very little on what the premise was supposed to be: Becoming a better pilot, regardless of the launch system.

JE

[Hostage-46]

It is only in the minds of people who don't fly contests or modern planes that Perfects, Supras and other similar sailplanes can float around for 10 minutes from your typical launch without finding any lift.

How did they get to 10 feet in 5 minutes? Easily: They did not locate lift! It happens all the time to even the best pilots. There is still a great deal of air reading and efficient flying that is required to insure 10 minute flights. Just go out there, launch a Perfect, just fly around and you will be on the ground well before the 10 minutes are up.

Come to the field more often, maybe ask somebody to let you fly his Perfect, fly it around and see if there is an automatic 10 minutes built into the plane. It ain't there. I see enough people,of all different skill levels, flying in competion and they ALL struggle for lift at some point. Heck, I've even seen Tom Kiesling get 6 minutes on a 10 minute round and Tom is as good as they come.

Indeed. 5 guys launch into bad air, they all come down. The cream will rise to the top. It's not about the turn radius or L/D, it's maximizing conditions...

[histarter]

It is only in the minds of people who don't fly contests or modern planes that Perfects, Supras and other similar sailplanes can float around for 10 minutes from your typical launch without finding any lift.

How did they get to 10 feet in 5 minutes? Easily: They did not locate lift! They sure as heck located a downer that they failed to use their precious performance to run from. Personally I think it is neat when folks with ‘handicapped’ machines for the low launch, bust their tush using low speed technology, without practicing it, while preaching hispeed performance they don't engage! It happens all the time to even the best pilots. There is still a great deal of air reading and efficient flying that is required to insure 10 minute flights. Just go out there, launch a Perfect, just fly around and you will be on the ground well before the 10 minutes are up.

Come to the field more often, maybe ask somebody to let you fly his Perfect, fly it around and see if there is an automatic 10 minutes built into the plane. It ain't there. I see enough people, of all different skill levels, flying in competion and they ALL struggle for lift at some point. Heck, I've even seen Tom Kiesling get 6 minutes on a 10 minute round and Tom is as good as they come.
Confucius say: One learns most from teaching others.

Your still missing the point that the old standards for a 10 minute task was the use of a <4 minute dead air sailplane, and that ratio has been reduced by slight of hand (or should I say foot)! :D

Of course this is why I prefer statistics to integrate all the humps and bumps, while working with a task (batting) average.

[tonyestep]

Al, you're right, and Yardflier is trying to teach you but he's getting nowhere. Neither are the others who have tried to help you understand what's going on in the world of model soaring.

Anyway, go ahead and argue with the other guys if you wish; I'm done. Just don't claim that you are using "statistics." You've clearly demonstrated many times in these threads that you have no concept of what statistics are, much less how to apply them. I know I shouldn't waste the bits to even point this out, but when you talk about your "statistics" it offends my sensibilities. When you invoke numbers, just call it conjecture or guesswork or speculation or some other more descriptive title.

[histarter]

Al, you're right, and Yardflier is trying to teach you but he's getting nowhere. Neither are the others who have tried to help you understand what's going on in the world of model soaring.

Anyway, go ahead and argue with the other guys if you wish; I'm done. Just don't claim that you are using "statistics." You've clearly demonstrated many times in these threads that you have no concept of what statistics are, much less how to apply them. I know I shouldn't waste the bits to even point this out, but when you talk about your "statistics" it offends my sensibilities. When you invoke numbers, just call it conjecture or guesswork or speculation or some other more descriptive title.
The problem with you Tony is academic brainwashing i.e. eating too much from the tree of knowledge. Because cavemen paints primitive pictures, by your standards they are not epics in their time, nor does the current art professors/students have the right to give them artistic credits.

A little common sense: Your asking a man that you believe is senile to entertain your philosophy and go out and re-experience the same old stuff, but more modernized by more caveman brute force launching systems. My prime books on aerodynamics is older than 1940, and I use their abbreviated formulas rather then go for modern (zero tolerance) pinpoint accuracy, that is truly overkill for a modeler. This is my credo that I utilize for passing on the information that the peak of my education has instilled. I am not currently competitive because of physical limitations; however I dislike political double talk telling some one to build their treasure to start a fun adventure and immediately curtail it with you should have started with a better sailplane – where at all times the now berated model had potential, if the student had a reasonable universe to fly within, along with the time to get intimately acquainted.

When I went to school, the standard for statistics was an 1896 copy of Grant and Shewhart! Believe it or not, air hasn’t changed, nor has nature (chance) undergone extreme metamorphism. I can live with being 80% right, and just not concern myself with the possibility of 95%. LOL
Tony, try the 1 min cell system with a HAM type histart and just put down the dots - watch the bell curve take shape.

[Bryan Quick]

Al-

You are iconoclastic and provocative. Why would you believe that tack your presentation and attitude take would bolster your position and persuade us to try your system when the majority aren't calling for such a drastic change?

Precision is the task. Rounding to the minute is just dumb when the accuracy required of the task is to measured to the nearest second.

Yesterday I went out and flew my SGII for an hour and a half. It was a ton of fun and the dog got a lot of exercise. My arm hurts.

[histarter]

Al-

You are iconoclastic and provocative. Why would you believe that tack your presentation and attitude take would bolster your position and persuade us to try your system when the majority aren't calling for such a drastic change?

Precision is the task. Rounding to the minute is just dumb when the accuracy required of the task is to measured to the nearest second.

Yesterday I went out and flew my SGII for an hour and a half. It was a ton of fun and the dog got a lot of exercise. My arm hurts.
Thank you for provocative! I am working hard to make you think my friend. Your system is not applicble to postal contests, and I believe that will be the wave of the future, or go extinct!
You want precission and have a helper for competition style practice and countdown, do it at the Max time mark. Any individual entry is not critical when the score is averaged out. In fact, a 2 digit score is really all that is needed for performance evaluation.
As you practice, and score starts out at 2.6 (as an example), and grows to 3.4 minutes you are seeing the improvement of the probablily of making a predetermined task - and/or precision of landing timely on the spot. It is all there for training for contest goals. It is a disipline that works far better then just boring holes - that is very boring to me. :)

[Twizter68]

My prime books on aerodynamics is older than 1940, and I use their abbreviated formulas rather then go for modern (zero tolerance) pinpoint accuracy, that is truly overkill for a modeler.
When I went to school, the standard for statistics was an 1896 copy of Grant and Shewhart! Believe it or not, air hasn’t changed, nor has nature (chance) undergone extreme metamorphism. .

Air may not have changed, but our understanding of aerodynamics has. Since 1940, we have broken the sound barrier, flown in space, landed on the moon, etc., etc.......you might want to update your reference library...remember, in 1940, the aeronautic industry still thought that the sound barrier could NOT be broken, and that any aircraft that got close would explode....

[histarter]

Air may not have changed, but our understanding of aerodynamics has. Since 1940, we have broken the sound barrier, flown in space, landed on the moon, etc., etc.......you might want to update your reference library...remember, in 1940, the aeronautic industry still thought that the sound barrier could NOT be broken, and that any aircraft that got close would explode....
You are so far out of context for a 20 mph sailplane I think I could convince you that my 1996 book "Beyond Humainity" is fact instead of fiction!
Check out the old leader attached. The targets on the Timeline are a bit too small, so give them a poke to enlarge then poke again! :)

[Twizter68]

You are so far out of context for a 20 mph sailplane I think I could convince you that my 1996 book "Beyond Humainity" is fact instead of fiction!
Check out the old leader attached. The targets on the Timeline are a bit too small, so give them a poke to enlarge then poke again! :)


And there you go, misunderstanding my point....AGAIN! What I and several others are tryoing to tell you is that the SCIENCE of aerodynamics has evolved since your 1940 texts were written; more is understood about airloading, drag coefficients, and a/c structures than was even guessed "way back when", and YES it does apply to a 20 mph sailplane; new construction techniques, new materials, better strength to weight ratio materials, the list goes on and on...you, however, fail to recognize that the world has moved past you.

[histarter]

And there you go, misunderstanding my point....AGAIN! What I and several others are tryoing to tell you is that the SCIENCE of aerodynamics has evolved since your 1940 texts were written; more is understood about airloading, drag coefficients, and a/c structures than was even guessed "way back when", and YES it does apply to a 20 mph sailplane; new construction techniques, new materials, better strength to weight ratio materials, the list goes on and on...you, however, fail to recognize that the world has moved past you.
You convinced me to submit/donate my OlyIII to Ray Hayes for evaluation, after 20 years of flight. It has a reverse molded wing, unilateral spar converted to a d tube with an irradiated polypropylene tension lower I beam supporter, making the wing many times stronger than the carry thru wing rod. This (retarded by your evaluation only) Oly was built in 1983, and the improvement updates occurred in 1985. Yes, it is strong enough for the club winch, but the wing rod is too springy and/or bendable for hard launching perfection! Yet, with a full size high start and carrying 2 lbs of ballast flying in a 20 mph gale (with gusts to 30), it will launch right along with modern sailplanes, suffering only because of poly when it comes to landing. Performance? It is quick enough for a skilled pilot to do a required task. :D

Paleontologists have strengthened the tie between dinosaurs and birds. The last of the “Big Chickens” were made extinct by mankind just 700 years ago, so in your outlook they never existed?? How about dino's with 900 cc brains? If their brain muscle was similar to birds, they would be geniuses. :eek:

[Bryan Quick]

Where I first learned to fly I used to go up to this hill next to the admin building at Cal State Hayward. There was a guy named Bill who was up there with us a lot. Some of you guys may remember him as 'Wild Bill.'

Anyway, he lived with his parents. He had some really waaay out there theories about lift, the air, thermals and helicopters. Really. Like, you can effectively double your aspect ratio with fences. So, he put a couple of pieces of that plastic binder material on his wingtips. It was all warped. We'd ask him stuff like, 'Bill, do you think that green binder plastic fence stuff is really helping when it has a half inch warp on it where you taped it on?'

WB - 'No, the beauty is that the warp actually is an airfoil shape that helps at the low-altitude, low-RE aspect ratio compensating into keel like effect pulling the plane into a more efficient lift over drag ratio.'

Right. I got that.

So, who should fly by about then but mr helicopter. WB- 'DON'T THOW OUT NOW!!! LAND AS SOON AS POSSIBLE!!! THERE'S A DE-THERMALIZER!!!!!'

Holy COW!! What was up with this guy? If he was up while that familiar whop-whop-chopper-chopper began, mass hysteria persued.

After we learned it was the helicopter, we'd feign compassion. 'It's the DEE-THERM-A-LIZER!!! Better land naooowow!!!'

'Right, Bill. Lemme just put the brakes on here and spin out of this thermal that's sucking my Windward up past the cloud base. Don't want that helicopter to push my plane into mother earth.'

WB began wearing a collander up to the hill. His receiver experienced odd interference, so he'd wrap it in aluminum foil. That proved quite successful, so he began wearing a foil helmet too as well under the collander.

I talked to my friend who still flies up on the hill last spring. WB is still around occasionally. I hope the foil helmet is still working for him.

[Curare]

You convinced me to submit/donate my OlyIII to Ray Hayes for evaluation, after 20 years of flight. It has a reverse molded wing, unilateral spar converted to a d tube with an irradiated polypropylene tension lower I beam supporter, making the wing many times stronger than the carry thru wing rod. This (retarded by your evaluation only) Oly was built in 1983, and the improvement updates occurred in 1985. Yes, it is strong enough for the club winch, but the wing rod is too springy and/or bendable for hard launching perfection! Yet, with a full size high start and carrying 2 lbs of ballast flying in a 20 mph gale (with gusts to 30), it will launch right along with modern sailplanes, suffering only because of poly when it comes to landing. Performance? It is quick enough for a skilled pilot to do a required task. :D

Paleontologists have strengthened the tie between dinosaurs and birds. The last of the “Big Chickens” were made extinct by mankind just 700 years ago, so in your outlook they never existed?? How about dino's with 900 cc brains? If their brain muscle was similar to birds, they would be geniuses. :eek:

Big it's not the mass of the brain that determines intelligence.

This is a theory from the late 1800's.

Once again, using pseudo science to prove a point that doesn't exist.

[histarter]

Big it's not the mass of the brain that determines intelligence.

This is a theory from the late 1800's.

Once again, using pseudo science to prove a point that doesn't exist.
Lets try a course on reading with comprehension.

Brain size relative to man, 900cc is less than 1400cc of the Neanderthal. More storage is needed for visual creatures that have little communication skills (that is how evolution works); as current mankind is only 1100cc having the greatest accomplishments because of the ‘zip storage’ effect of language for logic. Now, for a species that wants to communicate with creatures out there in the galaxy, we are unable to talk to whales, and teach them visual programs to make them the new candidates for office - with a more pure intelligence. LOL

Now the fun comment for the “genius” aspect is the consideration of brain efficiency where a parakeet with just a few ounces of brain can emulate a 6-year-old human!! ;)

You were supposed to chuckle on this, and not get a bent nose! :rolleyes:

If you were up to speed, the 1900 theories have been proven with more recent finds of about 1995.

[Bryan Quick]

Does tin foil work on the 1400cc brain too?

[histarter]

Does tin foil work on the 1400cc brain too?
you would have to ask a neanderthal!

[Bryan Quick]

...won't touch that one.

[schrederman]

Oh! Man! that cold cola blurted out through the nostrils thang is deadly... you guys are killin' me... again! Cleaning the keyboard... again!

[bobby legue]

Jack,
Maybe you should put some foil around your nose!
Bob

[histarter]

Jack,
Maybe you should put some foil around your nose!
Bob
Darn, you caught me in a swig of whiskey! That really makes a nose burn! LOL