what's the history of 3D flying?

[Skywise]

Quick background...my first introduction to heli's was when I was
a kid (about 1980 +- a few) and saw a guy hovering at the local
school yard on summer day.

Forgot all about it until a couple years later when I saw folks
flying planes at the local fair grounds. That got me real interested
in R/C, but alas, never did get anything. But I had a subscription
to a modeller magazine for a few years.

Then about 1991 or so I saw an electric heli in a hobby shop.
Was interested but didn't like the idea that it could barely
hold it's own weight for almost 2 minutes!!! (heavy NiCad's back
then still)

So then it's all forgot again until a few months ago. My have
things changed!! And then I see all this 3D flying in YouTube
videos. Now, I knew model heli's could do things that real one's
couldn't, like inverted flight and loops and rolls and such. But
I had no idea they could THAT!

OK, my question is, when did this type of flying get started? I'm
sure it's real easy (relatively) with all the fancy electronics
and gyros and such. But what about a long long time ago when all
there was was nitro and mechanical mixing? Did people do 3D back
then? Or did it only come about when all the fancy gizmos arrived?

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
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Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[Skywise]

Thanks, Beav. That was most appreciated.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[Beav]

"Skywise" <into@oblivion.nothing.com> wrote in message
news:ugQTj.41568$2Y1.23240@newsfe30.ams2...
> Thanks, Beav. That was most appreciated.

Well you know me, I never tell anyone anything :-)


--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19

[Steve R.]

"Beav" <beavis.original@ntlwoxorld.com> wrote in message
news:2RLTj.98374$h65.58920@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
>
> No, but they did do "conventional" aerobatics. Loops, rolls, stall turns
> and a combination of the three. The main "thrust" was for people to fly a
> helicopter as a close emulation of a fixed wing plane as possible, so
> perfectly round loop (at a constant speed) and perfectly axial rolls (at a
> constant altitude) were deemd the pinacle of control and in lots of
> people's eyes, still are. there's a majesty and grace seeing a helicopter
> fly the FAI manoeuvres that can't possibly be copied in a 3D
> demonstration.
>
> --
> Beav
>


There's a precision to FAI style flying that "most" 3Der's never achieve.
However, I've seen a "few" 3Der's that did their routines in a relatively
slow and much more controlled fashion that were a true pleasure to watch.
The hard core stick bangers have their appeal at times, just from a thrill
point of view, but I'm much more impressed with whose who are obviously
"flying" the bird through it's paces in a manner that I can actually see
what it's doing.

The funny part for me is, in the past few years, I've had several folks come
up and compliment those of us that fly more of an FAI style on how smooth
the bird looks or how fast they were flying, etc. It's not that I'm that
great of a pilot but I am competent within the limits of how "I" like to
fly. It's just that these folks had never seen a helicopter do anything but
flip and tumble around. Seeing one flying flat out in forward flight and
stretching out a series of rolls across the full length of the RC field was
totally different for them and they were unaware of just how fast a model
helicopter can fly. I guess it all depends on what you're used to seeing
but it almost feels sometimes like the pendulum is starting to swing back
the other way a bit!

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

[Steve R.]

"Beav" <beavis.original@ntlwoxorld.com> wrote in message
news:FNyXj.16259$sv3.7209@newsfe13.ams2...
>
> I think a LOT of 3D flying is nothing more than a series of pre-programmed
> stick movements which result in a particular "display" If ANYTHING happens
> to disrupt the flow of those stick movements, the heli lawn darts with a
> vengeance. I've seen too many REALLY impressive crashes because something
> didn't work "quite" right and the flyer had no time to straighten things
> out. Simulators are magic for working out those "pre-prograsmmed" stick
> movements, but they're not much use for "failures in the system" training.
>

I can vouch for that! I can "sometimes" do a pretty decent kaos but it
depends on the day. The frustrating part is that I have "moments of
clarity" with the maneuver. There are times when I can see what it's doing
and what my control inputs are doing and I can actually make the bird move
one way or the other or climb or descend. The problem is, those moments are
always fleeting. I need a LOT more time with it. In the mean time, I've
totally trashed two 90 sized birds in the last year and a half. I mean to
the point that it was cheaper to just buy another kit than try to buy all
the parts. OUCH! I'm not worrying about that as much any more. It's just
not worth the hits to my budget! :-)

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

[The OTHER Kevin in San Diego]

On Fri, 16 May 2008 21:51:26 -0500, "Steve R." <srhodes13@comcast.net>
wrote:


>There's a precision to FAI style flying that "most" 3Der's never achieve.
>However, I've seen a "few" 3Der's that did their routines in a relatively
>slow and much more controlled fashion that were a true pleasure to watch.
>The hard core stick bangers have their appeal at times, just from a thrill
>point of view, but I'm much more impressed with whose who are obviously
>"flying" the bird through it's paces in a manner that I can actually see
>what it's doing.

Definitely. At Fun Flies, I don't really even watch the top "angry
bee" pilots anymore. I'd rather watch the sport flyer who's fast,
aggressive and smooth and IN CONTROL. There are a few guys that fly
3D very well and are in control. Daniel Jetschin comes to mind...
Marcus Kim too...

>The funny part for me is, in the past few years, I've had several folks come
>up and compliment those of us that fly more of an FAI style on how smooth
>the bird looks or how fast they were flying, etc. It's not that I'm that
>great of a pilot but I am competent within the limits of how "I" like to
>fly. It's just that these folks had never seen a helicopter do anything but
>flip and tumble around. Seeing one flying flat out in forward flight and
>stretching out a series of rolls across the full length of the RC field was
>totally different for them and they were unaware of just how fast a model
>helicopter can fly. I guess it all depends on what you're used to seeing
>but it almost feels sometimes like the pendulum is starting to swing back
>the other way a bit!

Precisely the way I like to fly.. I've finally got to the point where
I can link maneuver after maneuver and have it all "flow" for the
whole flight.. Must be all the time I spend on the sim flying to
music. eheheh

A lot of times the guys I fly with will say something like "That was
some pretty agressive flying, but pretty smooth too.." when I land..
I like to be as precise as I can.. Loops are pretty round on a
consistent basis and I can hold altitude through 6-7 consecutive rolls
(which are pretty axial to both sides FINALLY!)

My inverted circuits are still a bit "fuzzy" but I've been doing
pretty good on my outside loops and "inside outside" cubans 8s..

Backwards inverted is still befuddling me, but my invered hovers are
pretty solid now... Still haven't got the "brass" to cut grass, but I
will at sometime this summer...

[Steve R.]

"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote in
message news:tjvd34pmo1oq6qvie6b8ltdk0542vq11g1@4ax.com...
>
> A lot of times the guys I fly with will say something like "That was
> some pretty agressive flying, but pretty smooth too.." when I land..
> I like to be as precise as I can.. Loops are pretty round on a
> consistent basis and I can hold altitude through 6-7 consecutive rolls
> (which are pretty axial to both sides FINALLY!)
>

I've had similar comments. My favorite occurance happened at a fun-fly that
was "overrun" with rather agressive 3Der's. I used one of the cones we use
for FAI practice and just did some hover exercises around it. I like to do
nose-in circles around it and it's fun to knock it over and then used the
skids to set it upright again. I flew most of that tank of fuel doing that
with a few laps around the sky, auto's, etc. when the 3Der's gave me room
to. After the flight, I was carrying the bird back to the pit area and some
guy came up to me and was "singing my praises" on how impressed he was with
the flight. It was embarrasing as I didn't think I was doing anything that
great but he sure enjoyed it and that was good to know. Anyway, the funny
part was the look on all the 3D type flyers standing behind him that were
looking at him like he was crazy or something. They simply didn't get the
fact that he'd never seen a model helicopter in anything resembling a
precision hover before. I'll always remember their look, it was just too
funny at the time.

> My inverted circuits are still a bit "fuzzy" but I've been doing
> pretty good on my outside loops and "inside outside" cubans 8s..
>
> Backwards inverted is still befuddling me, but my invered hovers are
> pretty solid now... Still haven't got the "brass" to cut grass, but I
> will at sometime this summer..
>
>

Likewise. I'm feeling a lot more confident with sustained inverted flight
but I'm still thinking about it too much. I fell out of a kaos the other
day, got disoriented with it and almost plowed it "big time" until I
realized I was inverted and punched full negative about 20 feet off the
ground. The frustrating part is, I can do most of this stuff
(forward/backwards, inverted and right side up) on the sim. Doing it in
real life is just not in the works for now, but I'm working on it! :-)

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

[The OTHER Kevin in San Diego]

On Fri, 23 May 2008 22:05:35 -0500, "Steve R." <srhodes13@comcast.net>
wrote:


>I've had similar comments. My favorite occurance happened at a fun-fly that
>was "overrun" with rather agressive 3Der's. I used one of the cones we use
>for FAI practice and just did some hover exercises around it. I like to do
>nose-in circles around it and it's fun to knock it over and then used the
>skids to set it upright again. I flew most of that tank of fuel doing that
>with a few laps around the sky, auto's, etc. when the 3Der's gave me room
>to. After the flight, I was carrying the bird back to the pit area and some
>guy came up to me and was "singing my praises" on how impressed he was with
>the flight. It was embarrasing as I didn't think I was doing anything that
>great but he sure enjoyed it and that was good to know. Anyway, the funny
>part was the look on all the 3D type flyers standing behind him that were
>looking at him like he was crazy or something. They simply didn't get the
>fact that he'd never seen a model helicopter in anything resembling a
>precision hover before. I'll always remember their look, it was just too
>funny at the time.

Yep. I know a guy who can Chaos, piro loop, piro tic toc and all
kinds of 3D moves, but can't hover nose-in or right side in. I don't
bother trying "3D" stuff yet and won't until I absolutely nail
circuits in all upright and inverted orientations. Well, at least in
real life.. :)

>Likewise. I'm feeling a lot more confident with sustained inverted flight
>but I'm still thinking about it too much. I fell out of a kaos the other
>day, got disoriented with it and almost plowed it "big time" until I
>realized I was inverted and punched full negative about 20 feet off the
>ground. The frustrating part is, I can do most of this stuff
>(forward/backwards, inverted and right side up) on the sim. Doing it in
>real life is just not in the works for now, but I'm working on it! :-)

hehe, too many brain cycles jacks me up too.. If I just relax and
plan ahead, I do ok. On the sim, I can actually do a Chaos once in a
while. It's not pretty and I can't control where it goes or how
high/low it goes, but if I'm "on", I can do 'em for 30-40 seconds
before getting "lost" and having to punch out.

I'm hoping to have my circuits down in time for IRCHA's Jamboree in
August.