No-Cal Hosler Fury

[The Don]

Since we all seem to be showing our nocals, here is the one I am finishing. It is a Hosler Fury. Current weight less prop is 5 grams. I am building it for our local contest which flys 6.2 grams minimum.

[Rifleman]

First one of those I saw fly, belonged to Bill Henderson, then Mike Thomas took it to another level..........gone is the simple NoCal that was originally intended to entice newcomers into the indoor arena..........like all things.......progress ? I remember when Easy B really was not all that hard......should be re-named Hard B .
How high a time do you think you can expect, if you get it into the Ralph Wilson Field House ?

[T. Lyttle]

Easy B came along, everyone figgered it would be an entry portal for beginners, and the stopwatch/pothunter group came along. Pennyplane showed up, and it kinda fell out because the s/p group couldn't take it away from the beginners.

Along comes peanut, then walnut, then coconut, many with their s/p group, but the fun is still there along with the challenge. No-Cal has to do with fun ONLY; if you find a guy with BS scale indoor job and a stopwatch, throw the bum out, he has lost track. With so many categories, records, contests, and all that, please remember that building and flying a model JUST FOR THE FUN is not (yet) a sin or offense.

Keep flying in small spaces, just to see the damn thing fly. Here's a challenge for you: we used to get the kids (adults too) to build Hannan's Escondido Mosquito, and with mods became the Biffy-Fly, and that became the "contest". How small a model will put in a 30sec flight in the biffy? ;)

[The Don]

I respect other desire to fun fly, but I am and have always been a competitor. Why should I get 'thrown out" just because I like to beat the stopwatch? To each their own, some fun fly, other fly to win. The Hosler is necessary because at the Indoor Nats in Johnson City, 6.2 gram nocals are exceeding 8 minutes. The last model I had been flying for several years was a Cassutt and was maxed out at 7:27. The extra wing area of the Hosler makes it an excellent choice. As far as the Ralph C Wilson fieldhouse, you should be able to do about 7 minutes there, I know we have been doing 6-6:30 with the Cassutts.

EZB should have had a weight limit put on it long ago but all those rule proposals failed. Now since the international EZB (F1L) weighs 1.2 grams minimum, many feel USA style EZB is the unlimited version of it.

Limited pennyplane is quite popular I do not see it disappearing, open pennyplane is the lesser flown one because of the need to build a biplane to compete. I know the original pennyplane models were heavy EZB's. If the event has taken a turn for the worse then why are not the rules update to return it back to the desired intent?

In any case, I take some offense to be called a bum and being told that I have lost track etc. If the intent is to have fun only then why do the FAC rules say the winner is determined by the total time of 3 flights? It does not say he total of the most fun. In fact why are any FAC events timed if its only for fun?

And who says I am not having fun? I enjoy beating the clock and it is my personal challenge. If you choose not to be challenged in that way then fine, but do not tell me I am a bum and should be thrown out! Give me a break! Perhaps you should be more tolerant of others peoples hobbies and personal challenges! I have had to listen to this 'fun' point of view now for years.

I personally am big into indoor rubber duration (set quite a few AMA records), and have been for almost 20 years. I also fly electric RC and parkflyers for fun. I do not compete in RC competitions. I have no interest in that, it is not where my model passion is. I do fun fly RC stuff, and that is why I read this bulletin board. But I am not going to tell some RC pylon guy or aerobatic guy that he is a bum for wanting
to fly in competition because I fun fly. That is ridiculous. Everyone does a hobby or sport for his or her own reasons.

I am sorry that my model offends you, but thank you for setting me straight on my priorities. I am sure if I only fun flew in high school the AMA would still have given me the Charles H Grant scholarship money for college. I though this was a forum for sharing our free flight stuff. I saw a discussion on Nocals and what people were building and I though I would participate. I guess I will just stick to the RC forums in the future.

regards,
don

[T. Lyttle]

Yes I can see where you (in particular) take exception to my remarks, But I, too, have my lifelong experiences.

Being raised in the 50s when finding buildable and successful models had to do with saving for 4 months (paper route) for an engine, and a couple more for a Firebaby, the steps up to successful flight were very difficult, particularly freeflight; radio was out of the question. Since then, I have been teaching beginners of all ages about the hobby, and if I had $100 for every group that was disrupted and eventually destroyed by competitors , I would not be doing all that bad. Some of us thrive on competition, I suggest (my experience) most do not. My experiences in competition were less than educational, from my combat contests to FAI sailplanes. When I quit, I felt better.

I only wish that competitors were more willing to share their building/flying tips with non-competitives and beginners for the betterment of the sport; many already do this, and they are well-known in their communities. This site clearly is a site for beginners, and I think it's great. If you want to carry my inference personally, your choice. Sorry you took it that way :(

[The Don]

Here is an article I wrote several years ago on Nocal building. The article was written because I was being accused of being an expert ruining Nocal scale with my lightweight models and I had secrets I was not sharing. This discussion occurred on the Free Flight Mailing List (FFML) back in 1998 I believe. I have a sore spot for this type of arguement because I have been accused of ruining events with my competitive nature and to me it is a 'broken record' which I will always hear and it is a major button pusher for me. Sorry for lashing out too harshly!

Here is the link:
http://www.indoorfreeflight.com/nocaltips.htm

[T. Lyttle]

Clearly, you are willing to share your knowledge with all and sundry; very commendable. Some share, most don't.

I hope that you will continue with your informative stuff, we can all learn from your hints. There has never been a time in my life where I had the skills to build models that light: my friend was a genius as well, and some of his skills were transferrable, but not all. He built a 48" biplane, compressed-air, 5-cylinder radial, weighing less than 16 oz. No miracle could ever allow me to accomplish such a project, he built many.

My skill, limited as it is, is to teach kids about simple models successfully, a skill that I have worked on for 37 years now. One of these days I hope to teach as well as you build. Sorry I pushed your button!:)

[The Don]

I am not aware if you know of Science Olympiad "Wright Stuff" event. It is an 8 gram model flown as part of the many events in Science Olympiad for middle school and high school students. We have taught many kids to fly and build rubber free flight over the past 3+ years. In fact 2 of our kids now have set AMA records and have competed in the indoor world championships representing th USA. They were accused of taking the fun out of the high school event and they were only 16 years old! So we held coaches clinincs and taught many kids how to wind and build and fly, and then they find out that they can do it all they needed was the knowledge explained to them. In fact I even created a CD-Rom guide with 300+ digital photos showing how to build a rubber band powered model and trim it. I have found many indoor guys are more than willing to share info and tips, the main problem seems to be no one asks or is afraid to they think we won't help out but we all do!

http://www.indoorfreeflight.com/items.htm

Here is a photo of the model the CD tells you how to build, in fact that is the model built in the CD shown step by step, from wood selection to rib cutting to covering and trimming.


Don

[KnifeEdge51]

Don, I'm trying to compete in the Science Olympiad. How long does that plane you showed fly? I'm thinking about building an enlarged Nocal with landing gear for the event. They seem to be very light models. My biggest worry is selecting a prop that allows the most thrust and yet also allows the rubber to hold it's winds for the longest amount of time possible. Not sure if Nocal is a good idea for the event, but I've got two months to find out. :D Anywhere one can find you're CD??

Nick

[The Don]

The model as built did a 2:15 in our gym using a stock 7" peck prop and a loop of 3/32" rubber. The best prop is to buy a 9" gray plastic prop for p-30, or 8" rubber free flight prop and scrape it down to remove the excess plastic and get the weight down. (By the way the technique is shown on the CD). Some people repitch the props to higher pitch and run shorter heavier lopps of liek 15" of .100 (2 grams max rubebr allowable). Other use stock pitch and fly long loops of .075" rubber with lots of turns. The kids are now doing 3:00 to 3:30 in our 25 ft gym. Most are now using a 8" blue prop scraped down (less plastic to remove) and trimmed to the 20cm size. If you are building nocal stuff you should have no problem getting 3 minutes in your local gym. You may need to get a rubber stripper to be able to fine tune your motor size, otherwise you will need to buy lots of precut rubber, and the problem with that is that rubber batches vary and do not give the same energy output. I helped one kid who could break 1 minute,, and i gave him a piece of my rubber and he did a 2:03 the next flight just because the rubebr he bought at the hobby shop was low quality.

The CD is available here:
http://www.indoorfreeflight.com/items.htm

I have a plan on my website for a SO model build by Akihiro Danjo which did over 4 minutes

http://www.indoorfreeflight.com/aki.htm

Here is a sample of the CD Rom showing how to make a wire nose bearing:
http://www.indoorfreeflight.com/wirenose.htm

I really did not intend to peddle my CD rom here on this forum so if you want to email me directly you can at dslusarc@core.com

don

[KnifeEdge51]

One last question (not CD related). Assuming you've had a bit of exposure to the actual event (SO), what are the average flight times of most of the competitors? It would be kind of nice to have a general idea what I might be going up against! Thanks!

Nick

[The Don]

It depends how active your area is. In Ohio. we have lots of schools we mentor, so the flight times need to be in excess of 3 minutes to place. Other areas which have little modeling knowledge or help may only need one minute to win. I think some of the SO web sites have regional results and you can see what times were posted in your region last year since the rules have not changed.

I would personally start at shooting at the 2-3 minute mark to start with, it is fairly easy to attain this time. You can then gauge yourself to your classmates. Our local schools here have scrimages and invitationals which do not count for real but are practice for the actual events and you can see who shows up and gets what time. I will be participating in one the first week of February and can report back what we are getting around here.

[T. Lyttle]

Interesting design, Don, clearly superior to Hangar Rat which I have been playing with over a few years. I particularly like the lack of dihedral in the center section, my favourite for beginner's projects.

I am hunting for designs like this for a beginner's program. By beginners I mean anyone or group with limited skills and resources, from school kids to seniors groups. I like the idea of plastic props rather than the hand-carved bats that faced me as a beginner 55 years ago.

So, any suggestions for a surefire NoCal beginner's model?

[The Don]

A Lacey M-10 was my first nocal when I was about 12 years old. Flies great and the outline is simple.