What RES planes do you guys like best

[aeajr]

I was going to build a Bubble Dancer but I just don't have the time and frankly I am not much of a builder. It just isn't going to happen. :o So I am thinking of getting a new or used RES plane.

My first choice would be an AVA just because that is the one I hear about most. However I thought I would see if you guys want to suggest something else and the reason another plane would be a better choice.

I will be flying for sport and maybe some RES competition.

NormallyI fly a Thermal Dancer 3.1M full house or a Supra 3.4M full house. Those are flown for sport and in competition.

Launching is off a club winch or an ESL competition winch.

I fly a Futaba 9C Super radio.

So, any thougths?

[Curare]

I thought the AVA was a bubble dancer in disguise?

[lincoln]

I thought the AVA was a bubble dancer in disguise?
It's close, but there are significant differences. I don't know what it does to the flying characteristics, but the stab is a different cross section, as is the fin, and the d tube has carbon/kevlar fabric on it. I'm pretty sure the Bubble Dancer doesn't have carbon cap strips all over it, as the AVA does. I think the joiner system is different too, but I don't recall exactly. The workmanship on the AVA looks pretty nice. Haven't flown it yet, but I hope to soon. I hope it flies as well as a Bubble Dancer that Mark built, but I suspect maybe it won't be QUITE that good. Leaves a lot of room for excellence, however.

[schrederman]

Houston Hawk... but you do have to build it...

[Andy W]

I like the (E-)AVA, the only drawback for me is the stab mount - poor design (retaining system failed) and not as strong as I would like (limits how much power you can put in there)..

I have a topaz, and the tail seems more "up to the task" - but I have the full-house version so I can't include it here..
..a

[Mark Miller]

Soprano

I am currently sold out but more are on the way.

Mark

[rdwoebke]

Ed,

They are all good. If you are looking used, just keep your eyes open. As you know, this stuff sells as soon as it is posted for sale.



Ryan

[slozuke]

I have a Super AVA and after owning a standard AVA I think I like the standard version better. The AVA just does everything well. It turns nice, can almost hover land with the right spoiler/elevator mix and takes a full pedal launch with ease.
The SA I am finding out is a bit more to land and takes a bit more to turn but it does float! They both float well! You won't go wrong with an AVA!

Although I haven't flown a Soprano I have heard they are right up there with the AVAs too. Some call them AVA killers but I sometimes hear the AVAs do the killing. But I'm just a little biased. :p

[dharban]

I have built and flown several Bubble Dancers -- they are great planes. But I finally broke down and bought an AVA and I can say that unless you get a major buzz out of building that you will probably not build a better flying and/or more durable plane than the AVA. (Same for Soprano, Topaz and the rest of the BD clones).

If you build the BD to Drela's weight, you might have an incrementally better plane, but you will also have an incrementally more fragile plane (that's why I have built several BD's :) .

I'm sure everyone who has a different clone version of the BD would pick a different favorite, but you are not likely to go wrong with any of them.

[IBWALT]

I like the (E-)AVA, the only drawback for me is the stab mount - poor design (retaining system failed) and not as strong as I would like (limits how much power you can put in there)..

Andy, quit pulling so many amps. :D

My current RES favorites are the AVA (reg and super) and the Topaz S. The AVAs require ballast (wing loading is to low). Most AVA flyers carry 9 to 12 oz. full time to get the best performance out of it. The Topaz S has the split spoiler which I like better than the one long run like on the AVA. Both are very competitive.

Walt

[IBWALT]

The SA I am finding out is a bit more to land and takes a bit more to turn but it does float! They both float well! You won't go wrong with an AVA!

zuke, if you have not tried ballast put about 9oz. in your SA it will make it a different animal. Also to tame the landings limit the spoiler to a max of about one half an inch up. I have my spoiler set to give me 90 degrees for dethermaling but on landing approach I only use about a half inch up. Any more and the spoiler starts blanking the rudder and it will start wallowing.

Walt

[Robglover]

AVA! I'll probably have one forever. I hope.

[ka7cse]

My vote is Ava!!! Not Super Ava. Just Ava.... Hope to build a Bubble Dancer some day for woodie RES....

[LVsoaring]

Paragon! But it's old-school and you have to build it.....

[aeajr]

If the Paragon is available as an ARF with a carbon spar, I might consider it. But I won't build it. If I was going to do that, I would have built the Bubble Dancer.

[tonyestep]

If you're going to build something, the BD is head and shoulders above anything else.

But the Ava isn't the only good-flying ARF. The Topaz gives up something in handling qualities, but has a stiffer and stronger wing than the Ava, and has a more accurate representation of Drela's airfoil design.


FWIW, I have a Bubble Dancer and a Topaz. Incidentally, both fly better when ballasted.

The Soprano is really a different animal. More of a windy-weather plane than a Topaz or Ava, even if they are ballasted, the Soprano has a strong wing and takes a hard launch. In dead air, it won't hang as well, but if you are a good Unlimited flyer, you may like the Soprano best of any RES.

[glidagida]

Yup, Soprano.

Wing is as strong as. Mine has taken a full F3B winch launch with no pulsing. :eek:

Handling is great if you follow Mark's instructions and get maximum rudder throw.

Ask Mark from Isthmus to combine the Soprano wing and the Trio fuselage for you. Have not tried it for myself, but reports are it improves the already good handling and saves a cuppla ounces as well.

Cheers
GG
www.rc-sailplane.com.au

[lincoln]

If the Paragon is available as an ARF with a carbon spar, I might consider it. snip
Yow! That hurts just to read it!

[Hostage-46]

Ava Ava Ava... Love mine, been flying it for 3 years. Just did an overhaul and converted her to 2.4 using Walt's approach I saw at the TNT. (Not a single lost packet btw)

I've been experimenting with flying without any ballast, and I have to agree, gonna put the 8oz stick back in....

[Curare]

Just a thought, how does the pierce 970 compare against the paragon?

[ozmo01]

The BD does have a full carbon spar cap top and bottom if I remember from looking at the plans from the charles river web site,,,sorry but you all will just have to excuse me for drooling all over the plans ;) :eek: a BD will be next winters project for me I hope.

[aeajr]

Yow! That hurts just to read it!

Yow, I asked for ARFs or used completed planes because I don't have the time to build. So, that would be hte only way it would have any value to me. If I wanted to build I would build the BD.

[rdwoebke]

If the Paragon is available as an ARF with a carbon spar, I might consider it. But I won't build it. If I was going to do that, I would have built the Bubble Dancer.

Paragons forever!

Sorry, contractually I have to chime in every time Paragon is mentioned....

Paragons are offered as an ARF. From Modelbau in the fatherland.

I'm not sure what the carbon spar in the Paragon would buy you.... Other than perhaps some insurance from a screw up on launch. I doubt it would buy you additional launch height, but I could be wrong.

And, as a person who has built both a Paragon and a BD, I can say, that the Paragon build would be a lot easier. Saying "if I was going to build, I'd build I'd build a BD" is akin to saying "nah, I don't want to play softball with you guys after work, if I wanted to play a game, I'd just go join the MLB".

I'm not sure if that analagy really makes any sense, but in my head it sounded fun. :)

Ryan

[aeajr]

The key Ryan is I have the BD in my shop right now. It is sitting in a box in the corner. The kit was put together as part of a club build. 4 others are being built. Mine will sit there forever. I should never have bought into the project. Molded fuse, carbon boom. Box of sticks, kevlar, carbon, all of it. And it will likely sit there till .... al long time.

So I am not interested in kits of any kind to build any wood sailplanes. Buying another kit to sit next to it would be .... not too smart.

I think one of the club members is going to take it.

Nothing against builders, I am just not one of them and won't likely be one for a long time to come.

[rdwoebke]

The key Ryan is I have the BD in my shop right now.

Nah, the key is this is the rcgroups and I'm just trying to post a funny analogy...

:)

And, the key is that if Paragon is mentioned, by contract you know I have to post. :)


I think one of the club members is going to take it.

Great. No reason for that kit to not get enjoyment from somebody.

:)

And, a key (at least for me) is to point out to the readers at the other ends of these underground tubes is that picking a 9 out of 10 on the kit difficulty build level for a first kit build project could be a bit discouraging. Starting smaller or less involved might help a person get more comfortable with building so that a BD project some day did get finished. I'm not saying you should do that, Mr. Anderson, but, perhaps the other readers on this groups might find this insight useful.

:)

And yes, I know this is getting OT. Mr. Curare, I have never seen a Pierce 970 fly, but I have always been curious.

Good launches!

Ryan

[aeajr]

Paragons are offered as an ARF. From Modelbau in the fatherland.


Ryan

Got a link? Can't find it/them.

[rdwoebke]

Got a link? Can't find it/them.

Guten Tag, Herr Anderson,

:)

http://www.mz-modellbau.de/Paragonc.htm

I belive the only one that is ARF is the Paragon XL at 199 Euros.

:)

Fair warning, I have heard rumor that these Paragons are produced without permission of Ed S. and then I have heard another rumor Ed S. is aware of these Paragons and is cool with them being produced. I'm not 100% sure they are true Paragons, and of course the XL is an enhanced design.

Fair warning #2, it has been over a decade now since I have really read or spoken any German, so my understanding of what Modelbau is offering could be a bit "off". They list the XL as "Fertigmodell" which would translate to "finished model" and they also lable it as "rohbaufertig" which translates to "carcass finished".

Wili (my name in High School German Class)

[Jim Deck]

To quote a good friend: "Modern RES planes look like HLGs on steroids". That's why I like my 3 meter Gnome.
Jim Deck

[Vulture]

...The kit was put together as part of a club build. 4 others are being built. Mine will sit there forever. I should never have bought into the project. Molded fuse, carbon boom. Box of sticks, kevlar, carbon, all of it. And it will likely sit there till .... al long time...So... what would you be asking for a BD Kit? :rolleyes:

Doug

[aeajr]

I am not offering it up for general sale.

Either I will build it,

or

I will get one of the club members to build it for me for a fee

or

I will sell it within the club.

Sorry!

[arukum17]

here's how you build a paragon..
open box
add wood glue
add medium cyano
shake
leave overnight
open box
add electronics
go fly

[WimH]

I've got a thing for Ray Hayes Big Bird. one of these days I'm gonna order and build one...
http://www.skybench.com/images/graphics/bigbird.jpg
http://www.skybench.com/images/slbird/big_bird_pic30621.jpg

[aeajr]

Guys, I sold the BD kit today, so now I am really shopping. No time pressure to buy, but ....

Based on what I have read, and looking at the specs, it seems to be between the AVA and the Topaz. They both sit around the 38-40 ounce mark I was trying to hit with the BD.

I have a Thermal Dancer and a Supra for my full house planes. So the Topaz or Ava would be for RES contest or for light air conditions when only wishes and hopes will float.

Soprano sounds great and if I only had one ship for all weather conditions I might go that way, but for wind I would go to the Supra.

Still open to any comments, personal experiences or suggestions.

I have never read a bad report on an AVA.

Can't find a lot on the Topaz but what I have found has been good. Since it is not as well known, if I get one of these I might do a review article on it.

We will see what turns up used. If I buy new I will probably buy the AVA ... or the Topaz.

[sneasle]

Keep us updated. I'm planning on stepping into one of this high end bird eventually, after ringing out my spirit elite and BoT.

[tonyestep]

Ed, I have a BD and Topaz and had an Ava for a long time. I'm sure you have flown an Ava, so I'll just comment on the Topaz and compare/contrast it with the Ava.

The Ava turns more smoothly and generally handles better in turning maneuvers, due to a somewhat superior dihedral configuration and greater EDA.

On the flip side, the Topaz launches higher, is stiffer (full carbon rectangular box spar), and has split spoilers, which improves landings considerably compared to the mono-spoiler. Somewhere on RCGroups there's a Zlog plot of Ava and Topaz launches at the SWC; the Topaz was getting maybe 40 feet higher.

The Drela airfoil is more accurately reproduced on the Topaz than on the Ava, at least on the Ava that I had; its wing was 10.2% thick, way more than Drela's design.

Every now and then, an Ava wing breaks on launch, even a new one, which isn't supposed to happen. I saw it again last summer at the Mid-Am Championships. I haven't heard of that with the Topaz.

The Ava is an easier build. The Topaz looks as if it's almost all put together, but it takes some work, both on the spoilers and on the servo/ballast installation. Somewhere on RCGroups there are pix of my installation, and there's also a good pic somewhere of a really nice servo installation by a guy in Texas, can't remember his name. If you can't find the pix let me know and I'll repost.

Of course, both are magnificent flyers. Either will easily thermal out from a hand toss on a nice day if you have a good arm. Neither one wins any beauty contests, but they sure climb fast if there's a little puff of lift, and they look really nice when they're doing that.

Both have been flown to a lot of top wins by a lot of top pilots. You're bound to have fun with either.

[aeajr]

tony,

That was a great post. Thanks.

[tonyestep]

You're quite welcome. One more note about the Topaz:

Last year I was in 8th place at the Nats with 2 rounds to go, flying my bagged Bubble Dancer. It's now 6 years old and with repairs etc has worked its way up to where it weighs about 50 oz. Anyway, the wind and air went completely dead after the 4th round, and the championship turned into a hang-time contest, at least for the flight groups I was in. I can hang for almost 8 miinutes in dead air, but not for 10, and I slid right out of the top 10 and wound up 18th, trounced by a bunch of Topazes. And that, friends, is why I am now a Topaz owner.

[aeajr]

Tony, if you were going for hang time would you fly the topaz unballasted? I assume so.

[spinolio]

I fly an AVA, however, the Soprano, Big Bird and Topaz are all very good.

Dennis Hoyle
WMSS

[sneasle]

If you don't mind posting those pics, I'd love to see them Tony.

[aeajr]

Found a thread that shows Servos for spoilers AND Tony's servo/ballast installation on Topaz
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=788386&highlight=topaz

[tonyestep]

"if you were going for hang time would you fly the topaz unballasted? "
==============
Yes. Most of these planes fly better with a little ballast in typical conditions, but for really dead air you want maximum lightness.

The reason that ballast helps is not only airspeed. The concentration of a chunk of weight at the CG reduces the plane's radius of gyration, which means that the damping is improved when it's disturbed by a gust, and the handling both in turning and in pitch is better. It's particularly noticeable for my bagged BD, whose tips are heavier than the nice built-up Drela tips. The Topaz does groove a little better with some ballast, but grooving isn't an issue when the air is dead. You just want to launch as high as you can and then just try not to come down.

[sneasle]

a little bit off topic, does mark miller sell off his own site somewhere?

Also, who in the US sells these moldies? I know f3x.com does, but thats the only place I know of.

[tonyestep]

Mark Miller:
http://www.isthmusmodels.com/
Other sites to drool over:
http://www.soaringusa.com/cart/cart.php
http://www.skipmillermodels.com/
http://www.kennedycomposites.com/
http://www.polecataero.com/

[sneasle]

cool, thanks.

It is amazing how much money can disappear into one of these planes very quickly.

[aeajr]

I have offers out on an AVA and a Topaz, so I will be joining the high end RES community soon.

[aeajr]

The guy with the Topaz went in to hiding, so I bought an AVA. But if the Topaz owner had gotten back to me I would have purchased the Topaz.

Either way I think I would have been a winner.

[Test005]

Sure thing, I'm still waiting for a AVA I ordered, and I think it'll be a great plane.
I choose the one with flapped wing... Can't wait to get it started.

[aeajr]

One of our club members just called me. Has an AVA, new, that he started flying in December.

Launches it real easy on the winch. I have never seen him push it. He doesn't even ballast it, so if it is windy, the AVA goes away and he flies his Supra.

Center section failed today on a tap tap launch into a 7 mph wind. Not very encouraging for a plane that is listed ans an F3J class plane. And I have read other accounts of AVAs doing this. Granted any plane can fail, no question but this one has received very gentle treatment.

What do you think guys? Isolated incidents or is this not really an F3J class plane?

[tonyestep]

"Center section failed today on a tap tap launch..."
===============
That is sad to hear. As I mentioned in a previous post, I saw the same thing last summer with a new Ava. Every year we are told that Vladimir has at last solved all remaining quality-control problems, and every year there are more incidents like this. And Avas are not the only plane he makes that has exhibited QC issues. Only the molded Graphite seems to be really solid.

I am now donning my flame suit.

[IBWALT]

I don't tap tap tap my AVA up the line and do not know anyone that does. Mine has not failed me and I have not seen or heard of one fail as you described until now Ed. Anyway it has not shaken my confidence in the AVA. But if you would feel more comfortable with a Topaz then that's your plane.

Walt

[aeajr]

Not making a judgement one way or another. I have a used AVA on the way.

Sounds like yours has taken strong launches so this must have been some defect in the plane and not a design issue.

Just reporting an event.

[IBWALT]

I know Ed. I just hope that this tale does not shake your confidence in your new AVA. They fly great and I am looking forward to having a new fraternity brother in LOAD. That's short for the Loyal Order of AVA Drivers. :D

I always look forward to dumping a LOAD on those hapless Topaz flyers in Austin, Tx. :eek:

Walt

[aeajr]

LOAD? REally? I like that. I may have to put that on my wings.

No, I have not lost confidence. I can't wait for it to arrive. But, I report such incidents because there could be a bad production run and, if others see it and have planes about the same age, and THEY are having problems, then something needs to be dont.

But I know this particular AVA has been babied. Too bad.

Loyal Order of Ava Drivers. Oh baby do I like that! :D

[slozuke]

Fellow LOADie checking in....

I always launched my AVA with a full pedal and tapped it up with wind. Never a problem.
I now fly a Super AVA and I launch it much the same way. The wing takes a nice bend to it on launch and actually looks very impressive. Launches nice and high. A VERY nice plane to launch! No wing problems so far and I don't feel any nervousness about failures on launch. Oh, and I fly with 8 oz of ballast permanently loaded.

GO LOADies!!! :D

[aeajr]

We should have a Topaz driver jumping in here soon. I can feel it.

[lincoln]

Probably those of us who own Avas ought to do a static load test so there is not catostrophic damage if there's a defect. But I don't know if I could make myself put 50 lbs on that wing. After years of flying wood gliders, I find it hard not to do some tapping with something so light.

[tonyestep]

A brand-new Ava failed at the Mid-Am Championships. Afterwards, Ben Wilson attempted a post-mortem. As you know, the spar is made with carbon caps top and bottom, with balsa shear-webs between, and wrapped with kevlar thread. Ben's tentative conclusion was that the spar caps had sharp, ragged edges that had cut or weakened the thread during the wrapping process, and that this allowed a gap somewhere in the carbon-to-web bond to propagate. I didn't see it, so I can't add anything.

The Topaz comes from a different maker (who has his own QC problems, but in different areas). It uses a hollow carbon spar, laid up similarly to a giant joiner. In other words, it's a box cross-section with a carbon top and bottom, and the shear-bearing webs are also carbon.

The Ava design is plenty strong if there's no manufacturing problem. The Ukraine now has numerous subcontractors who make wing parts and perhaps whole wings, so you never know.

[Hostage-46]

One of our club members just called me. Has an AVA, new, that he started flying in December.

Launches it real easy on the winch. I have never seen him push it. He doesn't even ballast it, so if it is windy, the AVA goes away and he flies his Supra.

Center section failed today on a tap tap launch into a 7 mph wind. Not very encouraging for a plane that is listed ans an F3J class plane. And I have read other accounts of AVAs doing this. Granted any plane can fail, no question but this one has received very gentle treatment.

What do you think guys? Isolated incidents or is this not really an F3J class plane?

Sounds odd, must have been some damage to the wing prior to launch....

Center panel is quite stout.... Last weekend I was going up gusty winds over 15 with 16 oz of ballast....

[FrogChief]

Ava, Topaz, Soprano, BD...

They're all bubble dancers. :rolleyes: ;)

[strom3932]

Sounds odd, must have been some damage to the wing prior to launch....

Center panel is quite stout.... Last weekend I was going up gusty winds over 15 with 16 oz of ballast....


There was no damage to the wing at all. Matter of fact that airplane has been launched very gently the 4 days I have been out with it. The wing broke on the left side of the hold down bolts about 2/3s up the line. There is kevlar thread on the spar, but the threads were pretty spaced out in that area. Damn........and it flew so nice too.

[Hostage-46]

There was no damage to the wing at all. Matter of fact that airplane has been launched very gently the 4 days I have been out with it. The wing broke on the left side of the hold down bolts about 2/3s up the line. There is kevlar thread on the spar, but the threads were pretty spaced out in that area. Damn........and it flew so nice too.


I'd contact Barry, no way an Ava should have a problem like that.

[DEE JAY]

I have been flying a Topaz for a year and am very happy with it. Lots of Avas and Topaz' were being flown here seemingly with equal results. I chose the Topaz for one reason: the wing breaks down into 3 flat panels. I made a box for the wings from an old 2m box I had laying around. The wing box is quite compact and my wings are protected.

[StevenatorLTFO]

I'm a newb with my Topaz, but have had it out a couple of times now, and it launches like it has a rocket in its tail, and floats like the wings are filled with helium. :D

A little more programming on my radio is still needed, and some practice around the landing tape, and I'm all set :D

Steve

[lincoln]

Ava, Topaz, Soprano, BD...

They're all bubble dancers. :rolleyes: ;)
They'd LIKE to be Bubble Dancers. But I don't think they're 100% to that level yet.

[FrogChief]

They'd LIKE to be Bubble Dancers. But I don't think they're 100% to that level yet.

Word... :cool:


Real men build their OWN airplanes... :p

[aeajr]

There was no damage to the wing at all. Matter of fact that airplane has been launched very gently the 4 days I have been out with it. The wing broke on the left side of the hold down bolts about 2/3s up the line. There is kevlar thread on the spar, but the threads were pretty spaced out in that area. Damn........and it flew so nice too.

I can confirm that this plane was treated very gently, much more gently than I would have launched it. Certainly no where near an F3J launch.

[rdwoebke]

"Word"? Is that somehow making a comback?

:)

BTW, if you are trying to make that catch back on, I'll work with ya. As an FYI I call everyone "Chief" (which is a bit ironic, given your handle) so try to work that in if you don't mind.

Ryan

[IBWALT]

Word to your moma chief. I'm old and have plenty of money and I can afford to buy or build whatever I want. :D

How's that for getting both in there?


Walt

[rdwoebke]

Great, Walt. Well played.

As an FYI2, I also like to call everyone "old man", even (and especially so) if they are not old. So you kind of worked that in too, old man.

:)

[aeajr]

Word... :cool:


Real men build their OWN airplanes... :p

Real men may build their own planes, but us fake men get more flying time. :D

[dharban]

They'd LIKE to be Bubble Dancers. But I don't think they're 100% to that level yet.

I've built and flown 2 1/2 Bubble Dancers and loved the heck out of them. But I finally went over to the dark side and bought an AVA and would rate it at least 100%.

First, I am a good builder. The planes came out around 36 oz and were as straight as any wood planes I have ever built or seen. But to get to the weight, the tip sections are so light that they will not tolerate much ground handling abuse.

Second, as straight as I build my BD's, the AVA (and I presume the Topaz, etc.) are straighter yet. They turn the same both ways -- every time. If there is any real difference, it is probably not as great as the difference between a properly trimmed plane and an average trimmed plane. Working on trimming the AVA I was surprised at the difference between just trimming it and trimming it right.

Third, as I said, I've built 2 1/2 BD's. I flew the heck out of them -- and I don't mind repairing them, but I've gotten real fond of the idea of being able to pick up the phone instead of the glue and getting back in the air pronto. And for those of you who think you save a lot of money building a BD over buying an AVA, you'd better sharpen your pencils and see how liitle your time is worth.

I still build, but not competition sailplanes.

[tonyestep]

"...I presume the Topaz...straighter yet..."
==============
Well, this is another quality-control issue. My Topaz is not as straight as I would have liked. It has a stubborn warp in the trailing edge of the center section that keeps returning after many attempts to fix it. It also required some shimming to get everything aligned right. My buddy Rich's had different but equally annoying alignment problems. Any manufactured airplane can have some quirk or other -- that's why people pay so much for Samba or Jaro construction (which, of course, isn't available in RES planes).

[rdwoebke]

Real men may build their own planes, but us fake men get more flying time. :D

I don't know about that, Ed. I have built most of my planes (or bought used ones that required a good bit of work) and I get a lot flying in (granted, very little of it is with a string). How many hours and days have you flown this year? We could compare. :)

. But to get to the weight, the tip sections are so light that they will not tolerate much ground handling abuse.

I still find that a bit unusual given my experiences with the Drela wood planes, but I guess given my current situation I'll have to take your word on this for at least the predicatable future.

.
And for those of you who think you save a lot of money building a BD over buying an AVA, you'd better sharpen your pencils and see how liitle your time is worth.


I'll do some of the math for you in groupsland. I figure I put a little over $200 into my Bubble Dancer. It took me about 7 months to build. I don't know what my time is worth, probably not much many would say. :) But I found the build enjoyable as did I find the build of my Allegro Lite. It also taught me a lot about a good many thing, I think I'm a more smart person because of the BD build experience. But, that might just be me. :) So food for thought for those of you contimplating which way to go with this.

I have no beef with the folks that choose to purchase Avas and the like. In fact, I think it is great those planes are available and for folks to support the vendors.

:)

Ryan

[aeajr]

I don't know about that, Ed. I have built most of my planes (or bought used ones that required a good bit of work) and I get a lot flying in (granted, very little of it is with a string). How many hours and days have you flown this year? We could compare. :)


Ryan

I get to fly 3-5 days a month, on average. I fly all 12 months. So figure I make it out 40 days a year. And when I say day I mean 6 hours or more.

Sunday I got there at 9 and left at 5:30. We ran the winch battery down, so I pulled out the hi-start.

Figure about 1000 launches a year. Now, if I did that with just one plane, I would be a better pilot than I am. But I have about 8 planes that are flown on a regular basis, so I move the time around.

No much building.

[rdwoebke]

I get to fly 3-5 days a month, on average. I fly all 12 months. So figure I make it out 40 days a year. And when I say day I mean 6 hours or more.

6 hour plus flying days for me are rare. With my family situation, I can get in perhaps 10 of those a year, and I split them with model rocketry.

I do all 12 months flying too.

I get in a lot more smaller flying sessions. I try to fly on at least 10 days a month. Last year I flew on 142 different days and had over 28 hours flying time. I'll often stop by the park on the way home from work and do an X5J practice flight in the evening/late afternoon air. It's not perfect. Probably does not fully prepare me for the beatings I take at TD contests. ;) But, better than making a few more posts on the internets. ;)

Building time for me is kind of limited right now due to some personal things, but I figure, I'd rather be building than watching American Lip Sync or Dancing With Fringe Celeberaties. I also usually skip CSI: Omaha.

:)


Ryan

[lincoln]

You build fast or type slow. I know I couldn't build a Bubble Dancer in the time it takes me to type a message. Especially if I was typing the message at the same time. (1 1/2 vs 2 1/2) :-p

Sometime I will have to measure the radius of gyration on my Ava and see how it compares to Mark's published figure for the Bubble Dancer.

The only Bubble Dancer I've flown was Mark's, for a couple of minutes. So I'm sure that it was just about perfect. My Ava actually developed a little bit of twist that I had to iron out. Perhaps I shouldn't leave the wings in the bags when I get them home.


I've built and flown 1 1/2 Bubble Dancers and loved the heck out of them. But I finally went over to the dark side and bought an AVA and would rate it at least 100%.

First, I am a good builder. The planes came out around 36 oz and were as straight as any wood planes I have ever built or seen. But to get to the weight, the tip sections are so light that they will not tolerate much ground handling abuse.

Second, as straight as I build my BD's, the AVA (and I presume the Topaz, etc.) are straighter yet. They turn the same both ways -- every time. If there is any real difference, it is probably not as great as the difference between a properly trimmed plane and an average trimmed plane. Working on trimming the AVA I was surprised at the difference between just trimming it and trimming it right.

Third, as I said, I've built 2 1/2 BD's. I flew the heck out of them -- and I don't mind repairing them, but I've gotten real fond of the idea of being able to pick up the phone instead of the glue and getting back in the air pronto. And for those of you who think you save a lot of money building a BD over buying an AVA, you'd better sharpen your pencils and see how liitle your time is worth.

I still build, but not competition sailplanes.

[aeajr]

Let's get back to taking about favoriate RES planes.

Right now, my favoriate RES plane is my Spirit. It is the one that introduced me to soaring.

It won't take a full pedal launch, it doesn't fly as well as some of these planes, but when I launch it, it makes me happy. My Spirit is old friend, and we are out for a day of enjoyment catching up on old times when we fly together.

[Hostage-46]

Right now, my favoriate RES plane is my Spirit.

Get back to us after you get that Ava in the air :cool:

[rdwoebke]

Let's get back to taking about favoriate RES planes.


My favorite flip flops between the Paragon and the Allegro.

Paragon is great becaus of all the planes I own, if the lift is light and I have to work it, I can do best with the Paragon. It is visable and easy to see the plane way out, and it sort of has a nice way it flies in the air. And, I'm more comfortable with it than any other plane. I flew it again just a few hours ago, good stuff.

Allegro is great because I can land the thing anywhere, with that big old spoiler. It is very tough and takes a beating. It is a bit sliperier and if I have to fly in ridiculous winds (I have flown it in up to 35 mph winds) I can do so. And, it breaks down to a small size, I have a rifle case it fits in so it travels with me way better than the Paragon.

Ryan

[aeajr]

Get back to us after you get that Ava in the air :cool:

I am sure the AVA will become my favorite RES plane, but it will never replace my Spirit.

[aeajr]

Get back to us after you get that Ava in the air :cool:

As you requested I am back to you now that I have the AVA in the air.

I AM IN LOVE WITH AVA!

This plane is nothing short of amazing. When it comes to thermal soaring it is nothing short of amazing!

I should note that my AVA is 44 ounces including a mid fuse skeg and modified spoiler. I have split spoilers with two servos. I also have the optional ballast tube. So that all adds up to a few extra ounces.

I have had the AVA out on three separate occasions for several hours each time. Most flying was done off a winch.

The first day was very calm. The perfect first maiden flight day. After a little trimming, it was just one great flight after another.

We had a club contest that day. I was hitting my times and nailing high points on landing. I don't think I have ever had a better contest day. I had several 15 minute+ flights and I think I had one for 30 minutes.

Next time out, wind was round 5 mph but gusting over 10 mph. Goardy Soar, a guy some of you know, came to visit our field.

The AVA did fine, but I was having to work at it a bit to penetrate up wind and deal with the gusts. I could have flown all day but wanted to try some ballast. So I dropped in a 9 ounce ballast rod.

Man, the plane settled down, penetration was just what I would have wanted and the plane found its own lift. I had several 15 minute flights and another 30+, as I recall.

This past weekend i had it out again. fairly mild condiitons. 4-8 mph. We were launching cross wind a lot of the time but the AVA was fine with it. It took strong launches with no problems.

I also pulled out my short practice hi-start. 25 feet of 3/8 rubber and 150 feet of line into a 4-6 mph breeze. Launched just fine.

Overall I had more 10+ minute flights and a 38 minute flight.

My poor Supra is being negelected and my Thermal Dancer cries in the night from neglect.

I am looking forward to a windy day to see how well I can fly the AVA in 15 mph winds. I plan to make up a larger ballst stick. I hope I can get 16 ounces into it.

I love my Spirit but the AVA is clearly now my favoriate RES plane and is competing for my #1 plane in the fleet. Depending on how it does in more wind, it might be my #1 contest plane too.

Others might laugh at that, compared to a Supra, but as they say it is the pilot, not the plane, and the AVA and I have bonded very quicly. This may be my best match-up to my talents.

[ChuckA]

My favorite RES model is my latest original design, whatever that is. :) Flying original designs is always more fun that flying somebody elses, especially when it flies as well as my backup RES (Ava).

[aeajr]

Pictures Chuck! We need pictures!

[Brendan Miller]

I have been flying a Soprano for a few months now and I love it, thermals great and handles wind very well. Last Saturday me and my dad went out and it was windy and then a calm would come about the wind had to be 10-15 MPH. I put both tubes of ballast in just to see, and the plane came back up wind great and handled the calm quiet well even with full ballast. Just today I flew the plane in almost no wind and with no ballast it would hook a thermal go up to 1000ft come down to 300ft then go back up.

The Soprano is a different animal than the topaz or AVA, it is a little more of an aggressive plane but is just as manageable. What I like most about these planes is how fixable they are I cartwheeled my Soprano into the ground awhile ago breaking the very outer tips off, I am flying with that wing and it is taking very hard launches with no problems.

[aeajr]

I have been flying a Soprano for a few months now and I love it, thermals great and handles wind very well. Last Saturday me and my dad went out and it was windy and then a calm would come about the wind had to be 10-15 MPH. I put both tubes of ballast in just to see, and the plane came back up wind great and handled the calm quiet well even with full ballast. Just today I flew the plane in almost no wind and with no ballast it would hook a thermal go up to 1000ft come down to 300ft then go back up.

The Soprano is a different animal than the topaz or AVA, it is a little more of an aggressive plane but is just as manageable. What I like most about these planes is how fixable they are I cartwheeled my Soprano into the ground awhile ago breaking the very outer tips off, I am flying with that wing and it is taking very hard launches with no problems.

The Soprano is about 50 oz right? With two ballast tubes, what do you get it up to?

As far as agressive, I presume that it wants to be flown faster due to the MH32 airfoil.

The current run of planes at the high end seems to be split between the Drela 4X series and the MH32 airfoils. From what I read, the MH32s prefer a bit more speed, but both seem to have a strong following.

[Brendan Miller]

I want to say I put about 16oz in it and right now it is about 55oz right now I need to weight it and see what it weights with the ballast. Yes the MH32 makes it more aggressive, I like a more aggressive plane although I am looking into a Topaz at some point and maybe next winter I will make split spoilers on the Soprano.

[Keith Kindrick]

After having flown so many of the new designs the BOT is very well suited to the new RES and WOODY class. A few minor modifications will allow the BOT to launch higher than the newer ships and slice the wind as well as the MH32. When set up properly with spoilers it lands on rails.

[Jflyer1]

After having flown so many of the new designs the BOT is very well suited to the new RES and WOODY class. A few minor modifications will allow the BOT to launch higher than the newer ships and slice the wind as well as the MH32. When set up properly with spoilers it lands on rails.

Yep, I can definitely attest to that firsthand!! ;)

On another note, I just have to say that the ol' Topaz isn't too shabby either! :)

[aeajr]

Do the old Topaz and the Topaz S have the same wing span?

[aeajr]

OK, We know the AVA, Topaz and Soprano are great.

I am looking for a RES ARF that I can recommend to new flyers as their next plane.

The Spirit ARF was the only low cost ARF I know of and it is no longer made. What else in the 2M, 100" or 3M range?

BOT is not RES.

Ray's Bird Series are great kits if they are willing to build. But what if they are not willing to build and need an ARF? Anyone have any suggestions?

[sneasle]

The Bot kit is RES. Sadly the Arf isn't.

[bobby legue]

Ed,
The BOT is RES and the BOT ARF is not. The next plane arf is a tough one. Ill do some research.
I admire your posts,
Bob

[Jflyer1]

Do the old Topaz and the Topaz S have the same wing span?


aeajr, I fly my Dad's old Topaz and my Dad flies the new Topaz S. The Topaz S has a slightly longer wingspan (by about 6-8 inches or so I think), and the center panel has some dihedral kicked into it, whereas the Topaz has a flat center panel. Here's a few pictures to compare the two.

[Jim Deck]

Take a look at Tower Hobbies Vista or Fling 2M. The Fling 2M can be winched and flies well.

[aeajr]

Take a look at Tower Hobbies Vista or Fling 2M. The Fling 2M can be winched and flies well.

Know them well, but neither has spoilers and I am specificlly looking for spoiler planes I can recommend.

[Up&Away]

The Bot kit is RES. Sadly the Arf isn't.
The Dynaflite ARF BoT is. But it has many wing related issues (folding with winch launch). Also, the manual states clearly the ARF BoT is meant for high start launches and NOT winch launches.

I electrified mine and she's doing great in winds <18MpH.

Oh yes, and you have to add spoilers yourself.

[DocOne]

My favorite is still the Pierce Paragon. I still have one I built in 1980, and flew it for my longest flight of 2 hours 35 minutes back in 2000.

I've had to cover it a few times and reinforce some of the wood, but it is still a great plane on light wind days.

Its a big classic floater, but its about as easy to fly as they come.

Cheers,
Doc

[aeajr]

I have never flown a Paragon, but it seems to be one of the most universally loved planes of all times.

[Kenny Sharp]

I've got a Topaz S on order.....this will be my first RES.