Final Brief Presentation: DA time

[histarter]

Originally Posted by Mark Miller
This thread has had nothing to do with dead air. Only hot air.

Mark


JW is seeking to design machines for more dead air time by launching higher and descending slower with low drag and high airspeed being the amplifier -which happens to work for a one-design paradigm that his followers seek to pursue. On the other hand I am trying to reduce DA time by reducing launch force and altitude so the activity would be more broad-banded, without partiality to one design! That is the discussion in a succinct format.

Interestingly, we are uniform when it comes to the Legionair because we are both addicts to its awesome capabilities. I just analyzed it further and experimented with it more, to realize its greater potential of thermal soaring flight! Unfortunately tuning the launch system for Legionairs opens the door to Pankin's Rainbow, Blackbirds, Shuttles, Olys, Aquilas and Paragons in direct completion with high tech - and that just cannot happen because the mighty men of mold believe (devoutly) that they are all obsolete!

[jrerickson]

Really, Al? Have you asked JW about this? He's designing for "low drag and high airspeed"? Yes on the low drag, but have you heard of camber changing? Do you think it's possible to have many different flight speeds? Guess what, it is. It happens with a full house airplane. You can even do it with wood.

You are always challenging the group with your statements about launch height but maybe you should go out and try this experiment: Pick a nice Texas day with 20 mph wind. Launch your Paragon, or Legionaire or Gentle Lady and go downwind. Ballast it any way you like. Now turn around and come back to the flying field. Did you make it? Do you think the drag of the overall airframe, including fuse, airfoil, wing shape had anything to do with it? Now try the same experiment with a ballasted Perfect, or Onyx JW, or Icon. Different story as they can fly faster due to camber changing and the lower overall drag of the airframe.

BTW, this has nothing to do with the mystical 500'-1000'-1500' numbers that you always throw out. You can do this experiment below 500'. The fact of the matter is a full house plane is more versatile in varying conditions.

You have a limited "design paradigm" yourself as the plane needs to be:

1) cheap
2) launched off a high start
3) easy to build
4) visible due to eyesight issues

We all understand this. But a lot of us fly way downwind and low, probably where you can't even see the plane. I would rather have a full house ship in the wind than a fixed airfoil plane.

The hobby is broad enough for both planes to happily co-exist. I have had a Paragon, and I currently have a Bird of Time that I love to fly, off a high start or off a tapped winch. But when I get serious and the wind picks up I'm going to go with a full house plane.

It has nothing to do with launch height. As I've said in the past, we routinely fly off a winch with 450' of line. Launch height is around 550'. Yes, I'll take you up on your HAM format but will you take me up on my proposition? I'm sure there is a plane in your club you can borrow.

John

JW is seeking to design machines for more dead air time by launching higher and descending slower with low drag and high airspeed being the amplifier -which happens to work for a one-design paradigm that his followers seek to pursue. On the other hand I am trying to reduce DA time by reducing launch force and altitude so the activity would be more broad-banded, without partiality to one design! That is the discussion in a succinct format.

Interestingly, we are uniform when it comes to the Legionair because we are both addicts to its awesome capabilities. I just analyzed it further and experimented with it more, to realize its greater potential of thermal soaring flight! Unfortunately tuning the launch system for Legionairs opens the door to Pankin's Rainbow, Blackbirds, Shuttles, Olys, Aquilas and Paragons in direct completion with high tech - and that just cannot happen because the mighty men of mold believe (devoutly) that they are all obsolete!

[histarter]

Really, Al? Have you asked JW about this? He's designing for "low drag and high airspeed"? Yes on the low drag, but have you heard of camber changing? Do you think it's possible to have many different flight speeds? Guess what, it is. It happens with a full house airplane. You can even do it with wood. Funny thing, Jim Simpson and I flew Legionairs with flaps, the change in speed range was insugnificant, in fact going through traps with reflex was slower! I have about 3 years experience flying full house Ellipse, Spirit 100, Dohl, and a few Chancey designs. If you will go to Soartech you will find that the profile for the RG-15, and Spirit 100 is faster if positive, instead of reflexed is used, and more ballast is added. In my experience the speedrange differential of flaps used in high AR wings simply does not compare with the interinstic speed range of a wide wing chord, Cecil Haga philosophy - that I believe in. Then when tripping comes into play, you have a great soaring boost.

You are always challenging the group with your statements about launch height but maybe you should go out and try this experiment: Pick a nice Texas day with 20 mph wind. Launch your Paragon, or Legionaire or Gentle Lady and go downwind. Ballast it any way you like. Now turn around and come back to the flying field. Did you make it? Do you think the drag of the overall airframe, including fuse, airfoil, wing shape had anything to do with it? Now try the same experiment with a ballasted Perfect, or Onyx JW, or Icon. Different story as they can fly faster due to camber changing and the lower overall drag of the airframe.

2001: Sanctioned HAM at Seagoville wind above 20 mph Oly III took first place with 18 ounces of ballast.
2002: RES Seagoville: Shuttle reMark was launched carrying 24 ounces ballast Round one, with permitted highstart. Longest flight of the day in a 30 mph gale. My illness made me leave the feild before round 3 and I still placed 5th.
BTW, this has nothing to do with the mystical 500'-1000'-1500' numbers that you always throw out. You can do this experiment below 500'. The fact of the matter is a full house plane is more versatile in varying conditions.

You have a limited "design paradigm" yourself as the plane needs to be:

1) cheap can be any priced, totally open and not ashamed if cheap wins
2) launched off a high start Launched off any thing that limits altitude to a reasonable value (just not open ended, and more than 4 Gs.)
3) easy to build That's my personal preference, you can be as exotic as you want!
4) visible due to eyesight issues My guilt of having 20-15 vision during my peak. I now comprehend what others go through because of cataracts

We all understand this. But a lot of us fly way downwind and low, probably where you can't even see the plane. I would rather have a full house ship in the wind than a fixed airfoil plane. And I would prefer a properly ballasted fixed profile counting on skill and simplicity when low.

The hobby is broad enough for both planes to happily co-exist. Why not fairly compete in organized soaring competition? I have had a Paragon, and I currently have a Bird of Time that I love to fly, off a high start or off a tapped winch. But when I get serious and the wind picks up I'm going to go with a full house plane. Have you flown the Paragon with 2 or 3 lbs of ballast? Most likely not because the wings need stiffening, and a bit of enineering for the airspeed increase - and Monocoat protection (Used silkspan and monocoat for the underside of mainpanels). It has nothing to do with launch height. I have so much data on the relitivity of airspeed and altitude that demonstrates airspeed is affected by altitude flown. As I've said in the past, we routinely fly off a winch with 450' of line. Launch height is around 550'. Yes, I'll take you up on your HAM format but will you take me up on my proposition? I'm sure there is a plane in your club you can borrow.

John
Hope this helps you see my argument!

[RBMartin]

Originally Posted by jrerickson
Really, Al? Have you asked JW about this? He's designing for "low drag and high airspeed"? Yes on the low drag, but have you heard of camber changing? Do you think it's possible to have many different flight speeds? Guess what, it is. It happens with a full house airplane. You can even do it with wood. Funny thing, Jim Simpson and I flew Legionairs with flaps, the change in speed range was insugnificant, in fact going through traps with reflex was slower! I have about 3 years experience flying full house Ellipse, Spirit 100, Dohl, and a few Chancey designs. If you will go to Soartech you will find that the profile for the RG-15, and Spirit 100 is faster if positive, instead of reflexed is used, and more ballast is added. In my experience the speedrange differential of flaps used in high AR wings simply does not compare with the interinstic speed range of a wide wing chord, Cecil Haga philosophy - that I believe in. Then when tripping comes into play, you have a great soaring boost.

Without even looking at the numbers anyone who has flown a performance airplane will say B*LLSh*T. With the airfoil on a pike weather it is in reflex or not will out penetrate your woodie by a long shot. Once The Pike is in the thermal it will add in camber and slow down (sig changing speed range) and then out climb the woodie if it even made it to the lift.

I do not know why I bother.

Bruce

[jrerickson]

Hope this helps you see my argument!

I have the plans for the Paragon right here. In fact, Ed Slobod, the designer, flies down at Pierce College, about 10 miles from here. Ed is a great guy, who has a good sense of humor. I remember talking to him about flying in the wind. He agreed that ballast was critical, but also went on to say that the Paragon would not do as well as a ballasted F3B ship when trying to come home from a long downwind run. He also said that the Paragon was basically designed for nice, easy fair weather flying.

Unlike you, he sees some limitations of the design. They are trade offs. Some examples are the flat plate construction of the stab and rudder. Why not an airfoil shape? Too hard to do when building. A trade off. How about the wing attachment system with two round dowels out in the airsteam? Easy to put the rubber bands on. How about the large triangle reinforcement at the tails? Makes sense as you are spreading the force out, and at low flight speeds it's hard to tell much of a difference. Large clevis and control horns on the rudder and stab? Easy to install, easy to adjust. Square fuse? Too complicated to build a round fuse.

These trade offs were his decisions as he balanced ease of construction with performance. He was aware that the Paragon was not the ideal plane for windy conditions. He didn't ever sell it short, but he himself doesn't fly one these days. 3 pounds of ballast will require spar modifications as well as torsional stiffening. It can be done, but is it really worth it?

For you it is. Good! Glad it makes you happy. Just like it made me happy the other day when I was flying my hand launch glider on a nice spring day, thermalling out from 20' off the ground. After 12 years of flying I never get tired of that.

It's just that you like to say things like a modern pilot with a modern ship doesn't know how to thermal. What do you call it, hiss and boink? I don't think you'll ever see how that isolates you, and what an unfair comment it is. But hey, I'm going on and on here and I should be getting things done so I can fly this weekend.

John
LSF V #122

[histarter]

Gentlemen, when an argument appears, you go to extremes, duplicating the current launching system...
Thermalling requires a narrow speed range of about 2 to 1. This is well within the big Paragons fixed profile and only requires mass to set the nominal airspeed program up. You are unable to get a CL difference of 1.5 to 1 out of flaps, so speed range is less than 1.25 to 1 meaning mass changes are still needed as for the Paragon, to be competitive. Not using ballast means your cheating yourself!

Yes, flat out the big P has a problem of drag, even though Skip Miller drove a fully loaded one through the FAI speed traps in 10 seconds (very close to the record at the time). Forget advertised performance, and concentrate on required thermal velocity and the family of airspeeds around the task and you would see things differently. The proof of the pudding is the HAM task (and that does not mean use a hosemaster).

[schrederman]

Al Sugar sez... JW is seeking to design machines for more dead air time by launching higher and descending slower with low drag and high airspeed being the amplifier -which happens to work for a one-design paradigm that his followers seek to pursue. On the other hand I am trying to reduce DA time by reducing launch force and altitude so the activity would be more broad-banded, without partiality to one design! That is the discussion in a succinct format.

Interestingly, we are uniform when it comes to the Legionair because we are both addicts to its awesome capabilities. I just analyzed it further and experimented with it more, to realize its greater potential of thermal soaring flight! Unfortunately tuning the launch system for Legionairs opens the door to Pankin's Rainbow, Blackbirds, Shuttles, Olys, Aquilas and Paragons in direct completion with high tech - and that just cannot happen because the mighty men of mold believe (devoutly) that they are all obsolete!

Well, there you go, speaking for me. You have no idea what I'm designing. Legionairs with flaps were a flop because the thinned Clark Y airfoil doesn't benefit from it much. In fact this airfoil is totally eclipsed by the more recent developments in airfoil design. The Legionair was a fine ship in it's day. In fact, for your ridiculous HAM I would much prefer a Legionair 132 to a Paragon. But to be totally honest, a Houston Hawk would be an even better choice. My last Legionair 140 had carbon spars and launched tremendously well. I did very well at the Mid-South in '03 with it... because I was well practiced with it... not because of any awesome capabilities it has over a moldie... gimme a break. I probably built more Legionairs than anyone else on the planet, including Cecil, as I built many for him and others to pay for my hobby. I keep one going for OLD TIME'S SAKE, not because of it's "awesome thermal soaring capabilities."

So please, don't speak for me... because you know not of what you speak.

Again I ask, for the umpteenth time, if you can't go out and fly anymore, why be a fly in our ointment?

Jack Womack... who can speak for himself.

[IBWALT]

There you guys go again. Feeding the troll. Jack, I thought you knew better.


Walt

[schrederman]

I do know better, but when someone speaks out his arse and is pretty much speaking for me... I can't stay shut up. I truly don't like it when someone puts words in my mouth, especially when they have no earthly idea what they're talking about. Not sure how the ignore works, but somehow I did it wrong last time or it times out... not sure... all I know is it's definitely working now.

Jack

[liukku]

...hey guys. It´s no fun to put some on the ignorelist, it takes strength from you. And who knows, you might miss "something".
To me, if people is happy here, I will be happy. :)

And as for this thread, he promised it to be the "Final Brief Presentation: DA time".

/Ville

[OVSS Boss]

Easist way to settle this, OVSS has a contest in STL in June (20-22). Friday afternoon is a practice time, why not get Al to come up and prove us wrong. I will make up two high starts, 50' of red rubber and 150' of line (or whatever Al specs out), and we can have at it for all he wants to go to prove HAM designed ships can show my Supra is not up to the HAM standard.

I'll cover the cost of the HS's and look forward to day. Walt, you can fly up on a good SWA pass and fly with us and oversee this world class competition.

Marc

[schrederman]

liukku said..."And as for this thread, he promised it to be the "Final Brief Presentation: DA time"."

Unfortunately I know this individual. He will not live up to that promise.

And I'm actually very happy...

JW

[histarter]

There you guys go again. Feeding the troll. Jack, I thought you knew better.
Walt
Jack does not realize that he fighting a ghost, his own hunger to win an argument that his 145 IQ is unable to handle, because it is based on simplicity.
I totally comprehend his engineering and believe he is a great designer, but realize he is applying his skills onto the wrong event! Thermal flying is more like fencing with the thermal Gods, whereas, Jack is attempting to use a broad sword in the form of a F3B type aircraft – all because the launch format is currently correct for F3B tasks. Thus all the lightweight thermal dancers are put to pasture, and only those that tolerate 25 gs are acceptable. To top it off, all those that have not flown on light force systems have become so comfy with high tension, they cannot accept the fact that the force they favor eliminates friendly competitors that would annoy them (like myself) - by doing a lot better then they think they should. Telling a good thermal pilot to sweat out toe taping a high tension winch pedal, and then expecting him to perform afterwards, is ridiculous. This attitude is prejudice i.e. by not supplying launching service that is fair to all comers, flying wings and canards included. Someone has to be the activist to wake up those of you that are ‘still asleep at the switch!’

[liukku]

Easist way to settle this, OVSS has a contest in STL in June (20-22). Friday afternoon is a practice time, why not get Al to come up and prove us wrong. I will make up two high starts, 50' of red rubber and 150' of line (or whatever Al specs out), and we can have at it for all he wants to go to prove HAM designed ships can show my Supra is not up to the HAM standard.

I'll cover the cost of the HS's and look forward to day. Walt, you can fly up on a good SWA pass and fly with us and oversee this world class competition.

Marc

Hello again
Before the battle, do this Exercise white Wesse (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0ajKKL4I_0) to be in good shape :)

/Ville

[tonyestep]

Al, as I've said numerous times, you just need to go up the learning curve. Since you've never seen a Supra, Pike, Espada or probably even an Ava, you are living in a world of imagination that unfortunately is totally at odds with the reality of the way these planes fly.

Marc has an excellent idea. Come on up to the Gateway Open. We'll get some short hi-starts, and you can demonstrate your system to some of the country's top contesters. Since in your view they are all deluded and have no idea that their planes actually won't fly, it would be a great public service if you would reveal the truth to them.

On the flip side, you could see an actual TD contest, meet some guys who can fly (including at least two members of this year's World Championship team and several past winners of the OVSS season series), and maybe see some things you've never seen before. For example, you could watch several of those planes that can't fly as they easily climb out from a hand toss.

Armed with the knowledge you could gain from a weekend at the Gateway, you could turn your talents, whatever they may be, to some pursuit that might have a better chance of success than the one that you're now engaged in.

[RBMartin]

I will agree that moldies are designed to take advantage of today's launch systems. But the design improvements does not stop thier. They flat do everything else better as well. Limiting pull on a launch system is not an effective way to test aircraft performance in thermaling. As you can make the load so light that only a H/L could go up. Set an altitude of say 3-400 feet. launch a pargaon and a pike p to that altitude where they are flying side by side but what ever means to get them to both the same altitude. Start the clock when they are side by side for a 10 min rd. Have no other fliers in air to point out lift. Do that 10 times in a row and the pike will kill the woodie assuming you have equal pilot skill on each plane.

The pike will range much farther and find lift more often. If you are flying in a low wind very light lift time, then I will fly the PP SL and you will have no advantage even if you get to the lift becuase I will climb every bit as good as the paragon. Add any sig wind into the equation and the differance only gets wider.

A good res ship in a skilled pilots hands can overcome the advantage a moldie provides by knowing the airplane and being a better pilot. Skip, Joe and others have proved that. But there is a reason they do not fly them in any serious comp. It puts them at to much of a disadvantage. Even in the early morning rounds of F3J when the lift is light and they have to make 10 min. I bet that one of the top pilots if the woodie was a good competitor could easily learn to pedal and kite the paragon type airplane to close enough the same altitude of launch as a moldie with some modification of wing strength. Thier is a reason they don't. Its not worth the effort to get the plane to the higher alltitude. Even if you do the moldie will kill it. Even if you set a low starting altitude of say 200 feet, the moldie will still beat it most of the time.

I may go to the TNT this year. Have your paragon ready and I would be happy to test your theories in practice.

Bruce M

[OVSS Boss]

Bruce,
Great idea, I hope to make TNT too this year, I love guys that will take on the questionable paradigm...Marc

[StevenatorLTFO]

Hello again
Before the battle, do this Exercise white Wesse (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0ajKKL4I_0) to be in good shape :)

/Ville


:eek: I must be tired, cause that was freek'n funny!!!!

[histarter]

20 years ago I saw a problem in soaring, and I used my writing skills for the NSS, MAN, RCSD, to avert the thinning down of attendance at the major contests. Unfortunately I was unsuccessful because of the degree of immaturity and lack of leadership within the AMA; also including their isolation and imperialism. The NSS was always open and would cater to innovation, thus was eliminated by lack of support. The LSF on the other hand was supportive to the AMA and thus they survived. Please don’t assume there was a war going on; the majority determination believes it to be evolution!
As the winch power increased, to the glee of the 45 year old membership, more of the 55 year olds that simply had fun going to inexpensive contests, simply evaporated. Now the 45s are 65 and with old age are no longer the peak soaring pilot they used to be, yet they seek out soaring tasks that require the eye of an eagle, hand eye coordination of a magician, with the gymnastic mind of a teenager – making joining this throng rather difficult by requiring extreme dedication. Instead of having the learning curve for newcomers similar to what the old timers went through, they are expected to jump into the top and sink to competence.

If the cap for winch tension were applied 20 years ago, the competition today would have a much larger attendance. The thermal pilots could kite, or zoom, and the beginner could fly the creations they built without being a nervous wreck about launching their GL or OLY etc.. Since winches and retrievers would cost considerably less (because of being built of stock items instead of state of art), and 60 lb test line running to 500 ft turnaround, clubs could charge less to use their smaller (less affluent) support equipment that could be carried in a pickup truck, instead of hauled on a trailer. If the landings were reduced apportioned to the increased Soaring Factor by softer launching, you just may have contests where a youngster could build a sturdy Oly, with bottom spoilers, and beat out the old timers in TD. [Just don’t grit teeth and comment “Lucky Skunk!” Instead be proud of the new arrival, he may just be another Mark Smith.]

Adding to this merriment is the fact that design range would be larger, less critical to exotics, and pilots could select their dogma for success thus changing the marketing into more economic growth by more variant technology.

[OVSS Boss]

Hey Al, no response about the STL/MVSA HAM challenge?

Really wished you would come to STL and fly with us.

Marc

[histarter]

Hey Al, no response about the STL/MVSA HAM challenge?

Really wished you would come to STL and fly with us.

Marc
That is a hard one for me. Have to see how I come out from surgery this week and next week.
I am now up to 1 hour in water aerobics to help with the walker. I might have to have someone fly my Shuttle proxy because I gave my big Paragon away. I would have to trim the Shuttle to match the flying style of the pilot, and no man on man will be the task. The Shuttle has to operate and handle wind apportioned to its speed envelope programmed.

[OVSS Boss]

We hope you come through in good shape, I really want to do the HAM with you is my big thong I will will admit.

The contest is another story.

Marc

[RBMartin]

Highstarter,

I actually agree with some of your point. Soaring contest have evolved to make it duanting for the newbie to enter and does require a sig investment in time and money to have a hope of doing well.

I cannot though attribute that to winch tension. Even if that rule were not in place technology would still advance and people would still build better sailplanes to be optimised for the task. The sailplanes would still end up costing the same just built to different design parameters. They would have to be sig lighter, but moldies would prob still be made and still have a destinct advantage.

You should take your energy off changing techgnology that will not happen and find away to constructively help newbies and sportsman enter the sport.

Good luck with your surgery and I hope you may return to flying sometime which you obviously enjoyed alot at somepoint.

Bruce M

[schrederman]

Today I flew from an F3B winch with 100# monofilament line. I flew my 25 oz. Bantam from it. I flew my Houston Hawk from it. I flew my Onyx JWw from it. I can't imagine a more tame launching system that that. It was excellent in every way. I could feather the light model and full pedal the heavy one. The Hawk was somewhere in between. If I had been flying from a FLS winch, I could have done the same thing. Al says the problem is too simple. Al doesn't know how simple it really is. It actually doesn't exist. Al, you're right. We should all be flying Paragons off of high starts in competition. What the heck is wrong with us?

Would you care to put that to a poll? How about it? Instead of droning on and on about this fantasy you're having, I propose a bet... Those that like the launch systems and technological advances vote one way, and those that want to fly Paragons off high starts vote for that. If more people want the Paragons and high starts, I won't post for a year. If more people want the status quo with the advances in technology, Al doesn't post for a year. How about it Al?

[davey1]

Jack, regards the poll.....imagine the possibility that we could have a tie and get the proverbial 'two birds with one stone'...ahh, the stuff of dreams!

Missed flying with you and OL yesterday but knew that I'd be at a tremendous disadvantage not having my winglets ready. LOL...but not too loud.

Hope we can all make it to Albuq next month.

dc

[schrederman]

O.L., Tom, and I had a really nice day. Wish you could have made it.

[schrederman]

Tony sez... Al, as I've said numerous times, you just need to go up the learning curve. Since you've never seen a Supra, Pike, Espada or probably even an Ava, you are living in a world of imagination that unfortunately is totally at odds with the reality of the way these planes fly.

Don't bother Al with the facts... his mind is made up. He can't seem to speak for himself, so he continually tells others what they should do, and always wants to speak for others. I seem to be a favorite target. The problem exists only in his mind, and not in actuality. He would have us believe he can't go out and fly anymore... so no challenge will be met... Therefore he feels it's his duty to be the "activist" to wake us up to his "truth". Does that sum it up? Probably not, but I guess it's just tooooo simple for me to understand.

[Barnsey]

... yet they seek out soaring tasks that require the eye of an eagle, hand eye coordination of a magician, with the gymnastic mind of a teenager – ...Here, such conduct is called 'passionate enthusiasm', a chronic, incurable condition with the right support.

Dr Dork

[histarter]

Highstarter,

I actually agree with some of your point. Soaring contest have evolved to make it duanting for the newbie to enter and does require a sig investment in time and money to have a hope of doing well.

I cannot though attribute that to winch tension. Even if that rule were not in place technology would still advance and people would still build better sailplanes to be optimised for the task. The sailplanes would still end up costing the same just built to different design parameters. They would have to be sig lighter, but moldies would prob still be made and still have a destinct advantage.

You should take your energy off changing techgnology that will not happen and find away to constructively help newbies and sportsman enter the sport.

Good luck with your surgery and I hope you may return to flying sometime which you obviously enjoyed alot at somepoint.

Bruce M
Bruce you are making my point exactly. Optimized for the task! i.e. thermalling, and not sloping. Slope machines, after being loaded for pylon racing will still thermal if you can get them high enough. Altitude decreases bank angle needed (the killer attribute), and stronger lift compensates for the increased sink at higher velocity.

Alvin's Soaring World has dimensions that create design limitations. Basic universe profile: 1000 ft AGL, 1 mile lateral air travel (5 min typical). No zero tolerance involved, just a basic job-plan that can be finessed for conditions.

Launching at 400 to 500 feet means a 10 minute task needs about 5 minutes of working with lift (instead of about 2 currently).

State of art machines would have to do well against the cruder machines of the past, and I don't see this because I measure (and catalog) everything from the ground up (from zero) and the current pilots attempt to measure from infinity down - with no way to record the dimensions – and that leaves them stuck with illusions.

Yes, molding planes will be superior in performance, however with the softer launching system, the skill level of the pilot using intellect, and compensating for their short comings while flying what he is familiar with, is going to be difficult to beat.
Pike Perfect 140” re 125,000 for 73 oz. max LD @ 20 mph
Legionair 140 re 158,000 for 96 oz. max LD @ 20 mph

Wind at less than 10 mph 78 oz. Legionair now @ 18 mph re 142,000 (LD unaffected – no flaps).
PP now @ 18 mph re 112,000 (LD affected, flaps dragging at about 10 degrees to get to 18 mph).

Using a limited launch and HAM task, who do you think will score higher?
[ Oh yes. I forgot, Illusion and pride has more status than reality or logic]

[histarter]

Tony sez... Al, as I've said numerous times, you just need to go up the learning curve. Since you've never seen a Supra, Pike, Espada or probably even an Ava, you are living in a world of imagination that unfortunately is totally at odds with the reality of the way these planes fly.

Don't bother Al with the facts... his mind is made up. He can't seem to speak for himself, so he continually tells others what they should do, and always wants to speak for others. I seem to be a favorite target. The problem exists only in his mind, and not in actuality. He would have us believe he can't go out and fly anymore... so no challenge will be met... Therefore he feels it's his duty to be the "activist" to wake us up to his "truth". Does that sum it up? Probably not, but I guess it's just tooooo simple for me to understand.
I didn't put fingers in my ears! So you have no ability to comprehend my answers to your messages. I never challenge pilots, most of them are superior to me! I may be called an "idiot servant" with words by my philosopher friends, but am somewhat of a klutz in the mechanical world.
You are engaged in an act of soaring that I have absolutely no interest in. Specking out with a toy sailplane for long periods is not my forte,’ and the reason I never went beyond level 3.

FF tasks were 10 minutes in the good old days, and then chopped to 3 minutes in modern times. Flying something I constructed for 10 minutes and then landing at my feet is all the thrill I wish to handle. [In fact the 5 min. HAM task is enough, and will keep transmitter impound running smooth, at power fields.]
My concern is to fly the best equipment that I am able to build to fly my slice of the soaring world with the realization that the ideology can be applied to modern competition pilots. I make no demands for any one to fly my way, whereas the haughty experts of soaring insist that I fly with (the popular) performance insanity primarily.
I firmly believe with a soft launch and efficient power transfer, kiting, circle towing, and zooming should all be viable options, without any prejudice.

[histarter]

Tony sez... Al, as I've said numerous times, you just need to go up the learning curve. Since you've never seen a Supra, Pike, Espada or probably even an Ava, you are living in a world of imagination that unfortunately is totally at odds with the reality of the way these planes fly.

Don't bother Al with the facts... his mind is made up. He can't seem to speak for himself, so he continually tells others what they should do, and always wants to speak for others. I seem to be a favorite target. The problem exists only in his mind, and not in actuality. He would have us believe he can't go out and fly anymore... so no challenge will be met... Therefore he feels it's his duty to be the "activist" to wake us up to his "truth". Does that sum it up? Probably not, but I guess it's just tooooo simple for me to understand.
Truth and reality are based upon perception. When it comes to your point of view, you are absolutely correct. When arguments occur, you simply do not respect my different approach, and have your mind closed. You are trained to enjoy hour long MOM with a model sailplane, and race to another airport in a full size machine to shorten duration, so your thinking is totally different than mine, who concentrates on “technical” soaring. You use models to engage individual combatants, whereas I use models to define and engage the mystery of hot air motion; and this is what makes us miles apart to begin with.

My discussions have 2 fronts:
1. To inform pilots there is a mathematical system that can evaluate both skill, and define reliability of working lift while identifying trim and design changes on a basic thermal machine. A poor man's wind tunnel.
2. Separate argument; A soaring paradigm exists that concentrates on MOM competition to turn it into a WWF affair, without any damsels or midgets. A thermal sailplane concentrates on low airspeed, a wide range profile that can go on step and quickly slip to new lifting areas - but needs not to be the fastest. [A red tailed hawk has about an LD of about 9 occurring at the slow airspeed it can handle]
So our basic disagreement is that you prefer Status Quo, and I am seeing that it is strangling soaring (that I am passionate about) off by forcing those that dream of soaring with the birds out, period; or else change them into GI Joes that must grapple with other militant pilots for status.
Bottom line is that with a limited launch, everyone benefits, including us that enjoy the ballet of dancing with air. I am sure your skill level will still keep you on top even though you may have more competitors to deal with.

Note: At HAM tasks, the thin profiles are disadvantage because of the low CL at high alpha. Attempting to move CL into higher airspeed regions means improved LD for a lower mass. This is a great manuever for sailplanes operating in the upper air and 'combating' MOM pilots, but rough on those of us individuals that enjoy Strauss waltzes while working lift. In windy competition; permit us to find our own solutions. Obviously the evolution you love would be a lot broader. :)

[rdwoebke]

Wow, how did I overlook this thread? :)

[ClayH]

Trolling or not, is this useless thread going to close anytime soon. I don't really understand who Histarter is preaching to. The advantages of today's moldies over 30 year old designed woodies is obvious to anyone whose flown both.

I do agree that if everyone was still flying woodie class that there would be less of an intimidation factor for new pilots, but that's not what is keeping soaring from bringing in more new pilots.

In this case, reality isn't perception - reality is what happens when my Pike Perfect and your Legionaire are 1/2 mile away at 300 ft altitude and have to get home in a 15 mph wind. If all you care about is the Jonathan Livingston Seagull experience of surfing the invisible thermal waves, why start this thread in the first place?

and finally Highstarter writes A soaring paradigm exists that concentrates on MOM competition to turn it into a WWF affair, without any damsels or midgets. :confused: :eek: What the ? Don't know what you're smoking but you oviously don't need lift to fly.


Clay

[dharban]

I don't know squat about HAM's (other than Honeybaked) and paradigms. I just like to fly gliders and eat hams. And I've been flying gliders since 1975 -- Aquila's, BOT's, Sailaires and most recently Bubble Dancers, AVA's, Thermal Dancers and Supras. And from a flyer's point of view (both sport and competition) I'd just make the following observations:

1. If you believe that the modern RES planes we fly now are not the ultimate manifestation of what guys were trying to build in the old days, then you never did get it. (Please, I'm talking about flying -- not building). If you want to enjoy the thrill of the old days, whether you are hi-starting or rocket assist launching, the new stuff is what the old guys would have paid any amount of money to have and to fly. This is absolutely what we woulda flew if we coulda.

2. If you have a problem with modern moldies don't fly one. But if you are making that decision without having tried one you are probably the big loser. I got my first full house a year and a half ago -- a Thermal Dancer. Even realizing that it would outperform, in many ways, the Bubble Dancer that I was flying, I expected that its higher performance would be manifested in more complexity and less enjoyment. How wrong I was. It turned out to be easier to handle in most respects and allowed me to enjoy a degree of control which is simply not possible with the RES plane. And then I traded the TD for a Supra. Simply put, flying the Supra is the most satisfying flying experience (short of the mile high club) I can imagine. I am sure there are many similarly satisfying planes, but this is the kind of plane the old guys woulda flew if they coulda even imagined that such a thing could exist.

I've, made my views known elsewhere about disparaging new ideas -- I think it is wrong, but to the extent that I understand HAM's and paradigms, I would ask what is the problem we are trying to solve here? We have modern RES planes (against which the old Legionairs and stuff can still compete -- see: Shrederman, Jack). That paradigm is as close to intact as anything that old can be. And it is as close to One-design as one could ever imagine.

And we have the new, highly refined, joyful to fly open class planes which compete with each other on as close to equal footing as you could ever expect.

And not too infrequently, the old guard RES can still take down the new plastic fantastic.

I have complained as much as anyone about the rules, the winches and the fact that everyone else but me seems to be getting a little uglier and stupider every year. But our planes have evolved magnificently over the years. And for the most part the way we compete with them has remained fairly level, in its own way.

So I'll just have to remain in the dark about the nature of the problem we are trying to solve here. I guess I'll just go have a ham sandwich and then go fly one of my paradigms :) .

[rdwoebke]

Please note, for the humor impaired, I'm trying to add some funny to this thread.... While I'm making disclaimers, I should always disclaim that I'm a crappy pilot who flies crappy planes. :) Take this post (and all my posts) with salt. Yadda... Yadda... :)


Trolling or not, is this useless thread going to close anytime soon.

Clay,

It is easy to close any thread you are no longer interested in reading. Simply click on "Thread Tools" then "Unsubscribe From This Thread".

:)


I don't really understand who Histarter is preaching to.

Who is anyone of us preaching to on this interweb? None of us can truely comprehend why the internets is important and why what we post here matters, but yet we do it anyway. :) There is some giant cosmic purpose for all of this. ;)






I do agree that if everyone was still flying woodie class that there would be less of an intimidation factor for new pilots, but that's not what is keeping soaring from bringing in more new pilots.

On a slightly less funny note, if you know what is keeping soaring from bringing in new pilots, that might be a good subject of another thread... I suppose even if you know what is not keeping the new pilots from coming in, that would be interesting...



In this case, reality isn't perception - reality is what happens when my Pike Perfect and your Legionaire are 1/2 mile away at 300 ft altitude and have to get home in a 15 mph wind.

I guess what I think highstarter is trying to say, is in a contest where pilots are all launching off lowish tension ~250 feet length high starts flying lots of ~5 minute tasks that the "1/2 mile away" scenerio would not have to happen in the first place. Such a contest would probably be more like a hybrid between hand launch and TD. Certianly there are times when HLG pilots fly far away and have to come home, but generally there is less flying above 500 feet in a hand launch contest. And less flying the planes at the limit of vision in a horizontal direction. At least this is my reccolection of HLG (early 00s and late 90s). Perhaps it has changed a lot since.

Ryan

[RBMartin]

2. If you have a problem with modern moldies don't fly one. But if you are making that decision without having tried one you are probably the big loser. I got my first full house a year and a half ago -- a Thermal Dancer. Even realizing that it would outperform, in many ways, the Bubble Dancer that I was flying, I expected that its higher performance would be manifested in more complexity and less enjoyment. How wrong I was. It turned out to be easier to handle in most respects and allowed me to enjoy a degree of control which is simply not possible with the RES plane. And then I traded the TD for a Supra. Simply put, flying the Supra is the most satisfying flying experience (short of the mile high club) I can imagine. I am sure there are many similarly satisfying planes, but this is the kind of plane the old guys woulda flew if they coulda even imagined that such a thing could exist.


I have had a similer experiance with my Pike perfect. I took an absense from soaring for a couple of years with the last plane flown a Super V(no slouch in its time). I came back to the sport last summer and decided to go with the PP. I was amazed at how much performance you got with such a forgiving airplane. A true joy to fly. With a properly trimmed airplane and a good program the complexity of flying is not as much a barriar as it used to be. With help I could see someone fly a PP as a second airplane and be succesfull. I could even see training someone on one with a buddy box, it would just take alot more handholding but could be done. The new planes just don't give more performance, they are better airplanes all around.

Bruce M

[IBWALT]

I guess what I think highstarter is trying to say, is in a contest where pilots are all launching off lowish tension ~250 feet length high starts flying lots of ~5 minute tasks that the "1/2 mile away" scenerio would not have to happen in the first place. Such a contest would probably be more like a hybrid between hand launch and TD. Certianly there are times when HLG pilots fly far away and have to come home, but generally there is less flying above 500 feet in a hand launch contest. And less flying the planes at the limit of vision in a horizontal direction. At least this is my reccolection of HLG (early 00s and late 90s). Perhaps it has changed a lot since. Ryan

Ryan, I'm only posting in hopes of being the last poster in this turkey.

Actually HL has changed quite a bit. With the best throwers throwing in the 200' range and the good throwers 150 to 180' range and the rest like me in the 130' range there is quite a bit of flying out and up.

But what histarter wants is a contest that is close in with optimized gas bags. Well I went to a contest like this once. It was billed as a RES contest. When I got there they had six high starts of equal length layed out. Fine I'm ready to go. I get out my RnR Suma (suma is French for, what a pig). A molded RES ship of considerable weight. Capable of flying in considerable winds with zero ballast. So I go get the parachute to hook up my Suma for the first round. Wow, what a weak pos. Probably a couple of #18 rubber bands tied together. Maybe 5# of pull. Well everyone is using the same high start pulled back the same length. I look down the line and I'm flying against a bunch of gas bag poly ships. You name it, it was there. Well when we all let go I was lucky to get 50' up and was fighting a stall the whole time. While the lighter gas bags were launching 150 to 200'. Needless to say I did not do well.

Well I learned my lesson and I never flew in one of those contests again. Basically it was a contest for old guys (I can say that because I'm old and retired now :D ) with a bunch of gas bags. You best not show up with anything that might require more than a few # to launch it. Well the contest was so exciting that (did I mention that I never flew in one again) I never went back and the guys that were flying in it eventually got tired of it and don't do it anymore.

This is what histarter misses. It's such a great format that he cannot get anyone to fly it with him.

Do I get the last post in this turkey?

Walt

[StevenatorLTFO]

Do I get the last post in this turkey?

Walt


Nope!

(somebody had to, it was just sooooo tempting) :p :p :p :p :p :p

[rdwoebke]

Once again, I'll prefact this with those that know me well, know I love RC gliding and contesting. Those that know me well, also know I'm terrible at it. Pitiful, really. But, somehow, I manage to stick around all these years.... :) So, take everything I say with a half pound of salt... And that might not be enough salt. :)


Ryan, I'm only posting in hopes of being the last poster in this turkey.

You absolutely can be. Just thread tools, unsubscribe from this thread.... Easy peasy!

:)

But I think everything and all threads have some merit...

So, here we stay....


Actually HL has changed quite a bit. With the best throwers throwing in the 200' range and the good throwers 150 to 180' range and the rest like me in the 130' range there is quite a bit of flying out and up.

Walt, I'm not so out of touch to realize that the launch altitudes have continued to increase. I really keep toying with the idea that I need to get back into hand launch. My last contest was one I CDed in May 2005, but even that one was guys who were not terribly serious about it (one guy had good XPs, one guy had a blaster, everyone else had way old designs or serious repaired XPs). Before that, I had last flown cutting edge HLG at the 2002 HLG nats.

Still, 200 feet surely results in more of the flying going on at under 500 feet than above, right?

I'm getting the itch big time to try out some hand launch again, but, one thing that gives me some pause, is, the wonder if my lack of athletecism would results in the best launches I can get to being 100 feet, will I get frustrated and be unhappy when the top guys at the contest are launching to 200 feet? Perhaps sometime in 2009 I'll find out. :)


Well I learned my lesson and I never flew in one of those contests again.

Now, one thing that struck me interesting from your story, is do you think that the other way around happens? That a guy goes to a contest, shows up with a plane that can only launch 150 feet off the winches at the contest and then learns his lesson and never shows up again?

Sometimes I worry about that a bit.

Ryan

[Mark Miller]

With the title of this thread being "Final Brief Presentation",unfortunately I fear it will not be final as much as it has proven not to be brief. Fork it...She's done.

Mark

[IBWALT]

Once again, I'll prefact this with those that know me well, know I love RC gliding and contesting. Those that know me well, also know I'm terrible at it. Pitiful, really. But, somehow, I manage to stick around all these years.... :) So, take everything I say with a half pound of salt... And that might not be enough salt. :)




You absolutely can be. Just thread tools, unsubscribe from this thread.... Easy peasy!

:)

Thanks for the tip Ryan but I already know how to unsubscribe from a thread. ;)

But I think everything and all threads have some merit...

Maybe

So, here we stay....



Walt, I'm not so out of touch to realize that the launch altitudes have continued to increase. I really keep toying with the idea that I need to get back into hand launch. My last contest was one I CDed in May 2005, but even that one was guys who were not terribly serious about it (one guy had good XPs, one guy had a blaster, everyone else had way old designs or serious repaired XPs). Before that, I had last flown cutting edge HLG at the 2002 HLG nats.

Still, 200 feet surely results in more of the flying going on at under 500 feet than above, right?

Well most of the big boys head immediately down wind if there is nothing obviously going on over the field. So while the avg. amount of flying may be 500' or a little less. Most of the action is 200 yds or more down wind.

I'm getting the itch big time to try out some hand launch again, but, one thing that gives me some pause, is, the wonder if my lack of athletecism would results in the best launches I can get to being 100 feet, will I get frustrated and be unhappy when the top guys at the contest are launching to 200 feet? Perhaps sometime in 2009 I'll find out. :)

Ryan, I hold a club HL contest every month here in Houston and usually have about 5 or 6 entrants. We don't throw very high but that's not that important. We have fun and share information.

My best HL finish in the Nats. is 6th and I have been to the Polecat challenge the last two years and am getting ready to go again this year. So your never to old to learn or try new things.



Now, one thing that struck me interesting from your story, is do you think that the other way around happens? That a guy goes to a contest, shows up with a plane that can only launch 150 feet off the winches at the contest and then learns his lesson and never shows up again?

Sometimes I worry about that a bit.

No need to worry Ryan. Like I said I go to the Polecat every year even though the big boys are out throwing me almost 2:1. I enjoy the contest environment even though I have no chance of winning. I learn something and make a new friend every time or try to. But your question is about the guy that has a plane that can only get 150' off of a winch trying it and giving up. I personally don't know of any gas bags that can only get 150'. But that's not what your talking about, 150' is just an example. My response is that this individual has the opportunity to buy or build something that is competitive. Example, I used to have a Houston HAWK that I flew in RES. Yes it is a gas bag and quite capable of keeping up with any AVA or Topaz and less than half the cost of the AVA or Topaz. I quit going to that particular contest because I already had an RES ship and did not want to buy or build another. Obviously I was not the only one because that particular contest died from non-participation. Not just because I was not showing up but neither did anyone else. Even the guys that had gas bags did not find it any fun.

Ryan

Now hopefully I will get the last post on this turkey but probably not.

Walt

[rdwoebke]

No need to worry Ryan.

Easy for you to say, perhaps. :) And, I said I just worry a little, not a lot. :)

But your question is about the guy that has a plane that can only get 150' off of a winch trying it and giving up. I personally don't know of any gas bags that can only get 150'. But that's not what your talking about, 150' is just an example.

Perhaps 150 feet might have been a bit short on the example, but, in my experience recently guys flying built up woody 2 meters either ARF (Aspire/Spirit) or kit built (GL, etc.) are getting only about half the launch height of the guys launching the other stuff. Seems many stick around and don't get discouraged, yet I worry some never seem to come back. Is it because of the discouragement from the 50% launch they were getting or is it because other life stuff gets in the way? Hopefully, it is the latter. :)

I'm not saying anything needs to be changed in what we do. I think it is great the contests we fly and obviously, lots of guys really enjoy them (including me). I just found it interesting/ironic that you said you were getting crappy launches at the HAM contests and then never came back...



My response is that this individual has the opportunity to buy or build something that is competitive.

Like you could have done for the HAM contests? ;)


Even the guys that had gas bags did not find it any fun.

Some day I hope to find out if it is any fun or not. I have hopes of building up a group of local to me flyers and doing contests using this general outline. I feel it would fit what they are used to (model rockets) fairly well.

But, first thing is first and I have to teach them to fly first. And, as crappy of a contest flyer as I am, I have never even came close to teaching somebody to fly, so that probably puts the chances of me getting those HAM like contests going very low. :(

But, I still keep hope!

Now hopefully I will get the last post on this turkey but probably not.


Has anyone ever had the last word about anything on the internet? In my experience, the band always plays on....

:)

[Chachi639]

Don't do it

[histarter]

1. HAM is not a one day contest, and should never be a contest format, unless you are talking postal. When the Surf is up, Surfers practice surfing. When the thermals are up, grab your machine and practice thermalling with an evaluation system that works better than "I went out the other day and flew a 3 hour flight! Goody, now I am an expert!"

Crappy launch? What about Carrol Moffat, he brought a Sailaire to the meet! Of course there was one Suma, two Allegros, one BD for the MASS LAUNCH MOM event (with no HAM envolvement)! My student (Mike Davis) flying a reinfoced GL tied for 1st place. Not bad for his first sanctioned AMA contest. :D The irritation of the winner was evident because Mike stalled at release in the flyoff, bobbled about and still landed just seconds behind the winner. At 32 ounces his GL was no floater.

Winch tension is a seperate argument, 100 lbs is overkill when 20 lbs would do the job. Its like hunting deer in Texas with a 7mm magnum (a rifle that will drop a one ton moose at 400 yards used on a 70 lb deer at <100 yards). Why submit beginners to an F3B universe when they are just starting to dance with lift? Set up equiment for the nominal sailplane, and use experience to slice off what you require. 20 pounds (example) is there for everyone. Zoom kite, or just tow and release without pressure. With 20 lb tension everything is lighter so launch is conciderably less critical. :)

[dharban]

Its like hunting deer in Texas with a 7mm magnum (a rifle that will drop a one ton moose at 400 yards used on a 70 lb deer at <100 yards). :)

Your point?

Why NOT kill it and clean it at the same time? After all we're looking for venison sausage here, not landing points. :eek: ?

Don

[ClayH]

Mr. you must be High-starter,

I read your blog here on your personal page and have a few questions for you.

Do you think that 1958 Jaguars should run against current day Ferrari's in F1 racing around the world, and that the new technolgy makes the F1 world cheaters?

Maybe today's football players should play in leather helmets, no face guards...

Perhaps pole vaulters could go back to aluminum poles and land in sawdust.

It's called evolution and it happens in any competitive environment to the point that money and rules will allow. Quit your bitchin about how we've ruined soaring. All my soaring friends, those that fly moldies as well as those building woodies that can easily take a launch off today's winches, we all enjoy the amazing ride that mother nature and man's infinite curiosity and tool making ability make possible. The fact is that there are more classes than ever before for different types of soaring aircraft, each one competitive within itself. It seems you'd have us destroy all the molded aircraft in a book burning type ceramony to get soaring back on track. Well it is on track and being enjoyed tremendously by those who actually get out and fly instead of making a wack dissertation that only has value as fodder for real pilots. Quit fighting with windmills and go get some stick time on a moldie. Your research is seriously lacking recent real world experience .

[Bryan Quick]

Winch tension is a seperate argument, 100 lbs is overkill when 20 lbs would do the job. Its like hunting deer in Texas with a 7mm magnum (a rifle that will drop a one ton moose at 400 yards used on a 70 lb deer at <100 yards). Why submit beginners to an F3B universe when they are just starting to dance with lift? Set up equiment for the nominal sailplane, and use experience to slice off what you require. 20 pounds (example) is there for everyone. Zoom kite, or just tow and release without pressure. With 20 lb tension everything is lighter so launch is conciderably less critical. :)

Dude, get out and fly. (Yawn) That's what we're doing. Have your HAM contests and if they're what people want to do, they'll show up and fly.

Personally, I like to load up the winch and let 'er rip. That zoom is really cool. Nothing like stored energy. Sometimes, right after I come off of the winch and there's no obvious lift, I point the plane straight at me and let it accelerate and make a speed pass just because it's cool. My crossfire really rips. It bangs a turn at the slope too. And it thermals.

Do _that_ with your optimized HAM plan. You know, the speed thing. And the slope thing too.

I prefer to have my cake and eat it too. This is America. Why make the rules into a little box? And why call us all of those names just because we like flying nice planes?

[yardflier]

It's called evolution and it happens in any competitive environment to the point that money and rules will allow. Quit your bitchin about how we've ruined soaring.

My interpretation is that some people wish to be fully competitive with and actually beat world class pilots flying world class equipment regardless of what these pilots choose or can fly. The logic goes something like this:

1. "If the best pilots weren't flying expensive planes, I could still beat them. I want to beat them with the woodies I can afford"

2. "My woodies can't range or handle wind. Let's fly low and only in light conditions."

3. "If I was able to tap the pedal efectively, I could launch with them. I can't, so let's make the winches weaker."

4. "If I could see as well as the best pilots, I would still beat them. Let's launch low and keep the planes close."

5. "If I could land, I would beat the best pilots. Let's eliminate landings."

6. "I'm be better off flying low but they'll again outlaunch me if I had to throw the plane. Forget about DLG."

7. "I only want to compete when I think I have chance. Let's not fly MOM or call up. I'll decide what days and what times I fly"

In other words, If you can't beat the best pilots flying the best planes but still want to win, change the rules to stack the deck in your favor. ;)

[rdwoebke]

In other words, If you can't beat the best pilots flying the best planes but still want to win, change the rules to stack the deck in your favor.


Yard,

Don't feel you have to hold back, this is the interweb. How do you really feel?

:)

;)



Ryan

[schrederman]

In all of this, there are many challenges, yet... none answered. And as I said earlier, there will be none. Please kill this thread.

[dharban]

In all of this, there are many challenges, yet... none answered. And as I said earlier, there will be none. Please kill this thread.


Maybe we could gutshoot it with a 7mm magnum :)

Don

[schrederman]

Leave it to my good friend Don to add some true levity...LOL

Jack

[rdwoebke]

Please kill this thread.

Thread Tools->Unsubscribe From This Thread

;)

Is that not true enough levety though?

:)

Ryan

[ClayH]

Thread Tools->Unsubscribe From This Thread



Is that not true enough levety though?



Ryan


We get it Ryan. Thanks for the directions for the third time. Explains how you got to nearly 6000 posts.

Clay

[rdwoebke]

We get it Ryan. Thanks for the directions for the third time. Explains how you got to nearly 6000 posts.

Clay

Calm down, chief. I'm just trying to add some fun to this thread.

:rolleyes:

You are right, I am a crappy high volume poster here on the rcgroups.

:)

So I can't post my joke every time somebody asks if a thread is going to die? No love for how they get the high post count with the "is this thread dead yet"?

;)


And, here you are still reading my banter.....

:)

Have a good evening everyone.

Ryan

P.S., another way you could get this thread killed, other than the obvious that I best not post for time #4, is to start posting a bunch of off topic stuff. Perhaps something political or religous in nature. Then, have somebody report the thread to have it moved to the basement.

P.P.S. Or, you could start posting short replies with Rip The Bring or something... After a few thousand of those that usually gets a thread killed too.

:D

[histarter]

Mr. you must be High-starter,

I read your blog here on your personal page and have a few questions for you.

Do you think that 1958 Jaguars should run against current day Ferrari's in F1 racing around the world, and that the new technolgy makes the F1 world cheaters?

Maybe today's football players should play in leather helmets, no face guards...

Perhaps pole vaulters could go back to aluminum poles and land in sawdust.

It's called evolution and it happens in any competitive environment to the point that money and rules will allow. Quit your bitchin about how we've ruined soaring. All my soaring friends, those that fly moldies as well as those building woodies that can easily take a launch off today's winches, we all enjoy the amazing ride that mother nature and man's infinite curiosity and tool making ability make possible. The fact is that there are more classes than ever before for different types of soaring aircraft, each one competitive within itself. It seems you'd have us destroy all the molded aircraft in a book burning type ceramony to get soaring back on track. Well it is on track and being enjoyed tremendously by those who actually get out and fly instead of making a wack dissertation that only has value as fodder for real pilots. Quit fighting with windmills and go get some stick time on a moldie. Your research is seriously lacking recent real world experience .
Do you drive a Indy 500 on a dirt track? If its called dirt track racing and you remove the turns by rules so the Indy will work, is it still dirt track racing?

[dharban]

Do you drive a Indy 500 on a dirt track? If its called dirt track racing and you remove the turns by rules so the Indy will work, is it still dirt track racing?

What???????

[Hostage-46]

In all of this, there are many challenges, yet... none answered. And as I said earlier, there will be none. Please kill this thread.

Kill this thread, ignore is his posts... it won't matter, Al will just show up somehere else, ever played "Whack-a-Mole"?

At some point all the RC sailplane pilots in RC groups will be lured into one of these tedious diatribes, and one by one, they'll move on, that's kind of how it worked here at the local flying fields, where we prefer to just fly.

In fact, here in Dallas we fly a lot. But most of you guys knew that, I suspect Highstarter must. And it seems like folks are just fine with the new equipment and winches. In fact we're over 50 strong, and fly 24 contests per year.

But for the record, for those who didn't know, at SLNT we fly man on man from highstarts with Class A hand launch sailpanes every month.

So Highstarter, can you believe it! Right in your very own back yard, a local club, is in fact flying from highstarts every month!

It's a terrific format, good friends, simple task, man on man, last guy down wins, all flown from a low tension high start. Just what you've been talking about all this time. Isn't it wonderful? I can't believe I didn't tell you earlier! Think of all the bandwidth we'd have saved.

Will we see you next month at Eastfield?

Because it really is about actually flying now isn't it :rolleyes:

[schrederman]

Never mind...

[histarter]

My interpretation is that some people wish to be fully competitive with and actually beat world class pilots flying world class equipment regardless of what these pilots choose or can fly. The logic goes something like this:

1. "If the best pilots weren't flying expensive planes, I could still beat them. I want to beat them with the woodies I can afford"

2. "My woodies can't range or handle wind. Let's fly low and only in light conditions."

3. "If I was able to tap the pedal efectively, I could launch with them. I can't, so let's make the winches weaker."

4. "If I could see as well as the best pilots, I would still beat them. Let's launch low and keep the planes close."

5. "If I could land, I would beat the best pilots. Let's eliminate landings."

6. "I'm be better off flying low but they'll again outlaunch me if I had to throw the plane. Forget about DLG."

7. "I only want to compete when I think I have chance. Let's not fly MOM or call up. I'll decide what days and what times I fly"

In other words, If you can't beat the best pilots flying the best planes but still want to win, change the rules to stack the deck in your favor. ;)
I would recommend you see a shrink. You change information to suite your view of insanity.
Nah, suicide goes with illusions, so stand back and watch the hobby of soaring shrivel up, and then babble about how you tried..OR..."It's activists like histarter that caused the demise. Hang the upstart villian, better yet, lets find a high AR cross... " LOL
When it comes to contests if rules are bent to make the contest a one design
event, you simply loose participations... Its just that simple. The Nats will end up being 24 entrents - all old experts hobbling about. And to think this is what you are fighting for?? Over the years I sent members of the YES Squadron, Denton School for boys, many father and sons from the Morman Church that wanted organized soaring, to DFW soaring clubs, and they never got attached because of the darn imperialism you are portraying. Keep up your (anti) recruiting system.

[schrederman]

Al sez... I would recommend you see a shrink. You change information to suite your view of insanity.

Say, Al, are you looking in the mirror while you type all this stuff? You always seem to me to be describing my view of YOU!

[bobby legue]

Sorry Al, Thats pretty much how a lot of us feel. About your posts. Yeah they are entertaining for a while, but if we could just e n cou r age youuuu tooooooooooooozzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzz

[Barnsey]

Low level competition launches used to be a lot more fun... :D

[histarter]

You want to get rid of me? Immature satire doesn’t work! Think before you let your fingers do the typing! Show me where my logic is incorrect! Stop with your evolutionary crap, it is like trying to justify the cloning of a new strain of human morphodites!

Show me:
Why softening the launch will not increase contest membership.

Why innovations would not happen if a wider spectrum of pilots were allowed to launch with a wider range of designs (that are currently restricted by extreme tension).

Why an extreme of 15% landing points is necessary to define a “Thermal Soaring Contest.” (In fact 5% would permit 2 channel or spoiler machines an opportunity to show their stuff as pilot skill, eliminating the need for RES, Antiques, F3J etc. that dilutes the activity (especially when they have to be adjusted to the club (gorilla) winch). Let the pilots with the $1000 sailplanes smash them into the center of the landing circle while cooler spoiler pilots that are thermal skilled coolly accept a lower landing score because of their stronger flight score.

Why not more flights per contest (because of a simpler structure), with pilots the index that is free to choose how he approaches his flight. If the conditions change to accommodate a slope machine let him switch, and use it. If I choose to use a ballasted thermal machine, that’s my prerogative.

Why HAM is not a good training aid for TD competition. And why statistical evaluation for growth by having a scoring system is stupid.

Now, show me why my arguments are failures, and I will disappear. I think that is fair!

[Hostage-46]

Show me:
Why softening the launch will not increase contest membership.



As noted previously in this thread, we have a contest every 3rd Sunday at Eastfield College in Garland, TX

We fly a simple, man on man format. Low cost class A gliders on a upstart that pulls only a few pounds.

Participation is steady, but no better then the standard contest we have on every 2nd Sunday, which are also very well attended.

Participation in the "soft launch" format is about 80% of what we see at the standard contest. Most folks don't travel for the hand launch unless it's one the quarterly or so discus launch formats.

So for what it's worth, we have a loyal, steady group of pilots who fly this format. About 75% of the highstart guys also fly in the open class.

Dan in Dallas .....

[IBWALT]

Ok Al you asked for it.

Why not more flights per contest (because of a simpler structure), with pilots the index that is free to choose how he approaches his flight. If the conditions change to accommodate a slope machine let him switch, and use it. If I choose to use a ballasted thermal machine, that’s my prerogative.

When was the last time you had one of these HAM contests and how many showed up and how many want another one?

Why HAM is not a good training aid for TD competition. And why statistical evaluation for growth by having a scoring system is stupid.

When was the last time you had one of these HAM contests and how many showed up and how many want another one?

Now, show me why my arguments are failures, and I will disappear. I think that is fair!

When was the last time you had one of these HAM contests and how many showed up and how many want another one?

Al people have voted with their feet. Now if you can be a man of your word and move on.

Walt

[histarter]

Ok Al you asked for it.



When was the last time you had one of these HAM contests and how many showed up and how many want another one?



When was the last time you had one of these HAM contests and how many showed up and how many want another one?



When was the last time you had one of these HAM contests and how many showed up and how many want another one?

Al people have voted with their feet. Now if you can be a man of your word and move on.

Walt
Walt, the 3 International Postal contests were completed in 1998. There were 30 contestants for the first, 22 for the second, and 12 for the third. The postal system was decreasing in popularity at the time because all of them had descending participation. Too much brainwash on MOM being the thing to do. MOM cares not for weather, prefers* high launching, no tale telling scoring, and has immediate satisfaction.
For the 100th time - HAM is an individual’s ‘contest’ with the air, and is not a CONTEST format (other than postal)!
Now lets see better, you avoided all my arguments with a beratement attitude. Now grow up and respond intelligently!

*Definition of prefers: To rate above other choices - and is not exclusionary i.e. via your mindset.

[IBWALT]

Walt, the 3 International Postal contests were completed in 1998. There were 30 contestants for the first, 22 for the second, and 12 for the third. The postal system was decreasing in popularity at the time because all of them had descending participation. Too much brainwash on MOM being the thing to do. MOM cares not for weather, prefers* high launching, no tale telling scoring, and has immediate satisfaction.
For the 100th time - HAM is an individual’s ‘contest’ with the air, and is not a CONTEST format (other than postal)!
Now lets see better, you avoided all my arguments with a beratement attitude. Now grow up and respond intelligently!

*Definition of prefers: To rate above other choices - and is not exclusionary i.e. via your mindset.

No beratement Al just a simple question. When was the last HAM contest? You said 1998. That's 10 years ago Al. So when's the next one? I rest my case.

Walt

[histarter]

No beratement Al just a simple question. When was the last HAM contest? You said 1998. That's 10 years ago Al. So when's the next one? I rest my case.

Walt
You have no case to rest? 101 times now! HAM is not a contest.
The event was still flown to 2006 by the few dedicated souls that attempted to keep tabs on their performance. I could bearly fly a Slow Stick set up for thermalling. At least I didn't have to lay out a histart, and could fly out of a churches back yard.

What is your point? Jim Simpson passed away, and all his wonderfull work with youth went with him, closing off the Albequerque connection. Because the shakers pass out of the scene, their ideas must die with them? Christ is dead, yet his spirit lives on within our minds - and that occured 2000 years ago.

[Mark Miller]

Al Wrote...
"you avoided all my arguments with a beratement attitude. Now grow up and respond intelligently!"

Now there is the pot calling the kettle black in two adjoining sentences even when the kettle is not black.

Al is using his word "logic" to replace the term religion. The problem Al has is that he cannot help but evangelize his beliefs unto others and cannot accept them if they do not become believers. There are some that will believe and that is fine by me. The great thing about America is we are all free to believe in what we want. It's not brain washing Al. It is what others like. Just because others do not believe in your religion does not give you free reign to minimize their religion. You worship at your alter and I'll worship at mine. Who cares who's is right or who's is the more logical.

Mark

[IBWALT]

You have no case to rest? 101 times now! HAM is not a contest.
The event was still flown to 2006 by the few dedicated souls that attempted to keep tabs on their performance. I could bearly fly a Slow Stick set up for thermalling. At least I didn't have to lay out a histart, and could fly out of a churches back yard.

What is your point? Jim Simpson passed away, and all his wonderfull work with youth went with him, closing off the Albequerque connection. Because the shakers pass out of the scene, their ideas must die with them? Christ is dead, yet his spirit lives on within our minds - and that occured 2000 years ago.

Al you keep saying that it is not a contest. But you said that in 1998 you had 30 contestants. Then you had 22 contestants then 12. Al, how do you have contestants and no contest? Even postal events are contests. If this is such a great format and your theories are so right why are there not more Ham contests. Oops sorry events. I guess HAM is dead.

Walt

[histarter]

Al Wrote...
"you avoided all my arguments with a beratement attitude. Now grow up and respond intelligently!"

Now there is the pot calling the kettle black in two adjoining sentences even when the kettle is not black.

Al is using his word "logic" to replace the term religion. The problem Al has is that he cannot help but evangelize his beliefs unto others and cannot accept them if they do not become believers. There are some that will believe and that is fine by me. The great thing about America is we are all free to believe in what we want. It's not brain washing Al. It is what others like. Just because others do not believe in your religion does not give you free reign to minimize their religion. You worship at your alter and I'll worship at mine. Who cares who's is right or who's is the more logical.

Mark
It is far easier to cave into the throng, then to stand for what you believe in. Compromise destroyed our American Constitution, and moved it into Facism. Activists are ignored, and here we go deeper into recession. This is the same state of affairs in soaring, where hive-mind mentality overrules and blinds individuals to salute the demigod of the Roman Catapult!

My messages are not to Orthidox slope/F3B pilots, but to those that wish to dance with thermals. They do need to wedge themselves into organized soaring by having rules adjusted to accomdate their art style. This is an argument for creating growth in an avocation, instead of permitting it to wither away!

[histarter]

Al you keep saying that it is not a contest. But you said that in 1998 you had 30 contestants. Then you had 22 contestants then 12. Al, how do you have contestants and no contest? Even postal events are contests. If this is such a great format and your theories are so right why are there not more Ham contests. Oops sorry events. I guess HAM is dead.

Walt
102 times; how about - not a MOM event? A postal contest is one that creates a score. The pilot flies in totally different air, as an individual, so the word competition here does not mean flying with a gaggle of pilots on demand of a specific day regardless of weather conditions. So by your definitions also, it is not a sanctioned contest of organized soaring.
Walt, stop with your zero tolerance evaluations, please.

[jtlsf5]

It is far easier to cave into the throng, then to stand for what you believe in. Compromise destroyed our American Constitution, and moved it into Facism. Activists are ignored, and here we go deeper into recession. This is the same state of affairs in soaring, where hive-mind mentality overrules and blinds individuals to salute the demigod of the Roman Catapult!

My messages are not to Orthidox slope/F3B pilots, but to those that wish to dance with thermals. They do need to wedge themselves into organized soaring by having rules adjusted to accomdate their art style. This is an argument for creating growth in an avocation, instead of permitting it to wither away!


Once again you are so full of your own verbose crap that even those few readers that ever cared what you write seem to be tiring quickly. So you, the wizened guru of all things soaring, are now defining what organized soaring should be, along with state of the art in launch equipment, along with valid vs. invalid modifications to old designs? When do you finally go away? You don't seem to understand the meaning of your own thread title, so look up the words "final" and "brief" in a good dictionary, then do the ethical thing and fade into the sunset. Oh yeah, learn to spell, it will give your erudite garbage a teensy little bit more credence. Its spelled Orthodox...

[IBWALT]

102 times; how about - not a MOM event? A postal contest is one that creates a score. The pilot flies in totally different air, as an individual, so the word competition here does not mean flying with a gaggle of pilots on demand of a specific day regardless of weather conditions. So by your definitions also, it is not a sanctioned contest of organized soaring.
Walt, stop with your zero tolerance evaluations, please.

I never said anything about flying with a gaggle of pilots Al, you did. I simply asked when was the last contest and how many contestants and from your answers I have deduced that Ham is dead. As in no one participates in it. Now you prove me wrong. Get up a Ham event and let's see how many participate. My best guess is Ham is still dead.

Walt

[histarter]

I never said anything about flying with a gaggle of pilots Al, you did. I simply asked when was the last contest and how many contestants and from your answers I have deduced that Ham is dead. As in no one participates in it. Now you prove me wrong. Get up a Ham event and let's see how many participate. My best guess is Ham is still dead.

Walt
103 times, I will no longer put up funds to run a postal contest when postal contests have died - taking HAM with them, just like modern soaring is doing today...just in slow motion!

[IBWALT]

103 times, I will no longer put up funds to run a postal contest when postal contests have died - taking HAM with them, just like modern soaring is doing today...just in slow motion!

Al I guess your not capable of putting up or shutting up. Your in love with your own twisted perception of how things should be. Oh, Ham is still dead.

Walt

[jtlsf5]

Al I guess you not capable of putting up or shutting up. Your in love with your own twisted perception of how things should be. Oh, Ham is still dead.

Walt


Think its time he changes his handle to Non-starter? ;)

[IBWALT]

Think its time he changes his handle to Non-starter? ;)

hehehehe, I like that.

Walt

[RBMartin]

AL,

You accuse the soaring masses of closemindedness. You propose one type of soaring as the true measure of thermaling and soaring. That in itself is closemindedness to the extreme.

No one participates in your HAM style becuase we have moved on. You have the audicty to say that it is not a true contest and more the pilot proving himself against the thermals. How can you have the gall to say that is any more soaring then what I do? Everytime I practice flying a moldie of a short highstart and launching to 200 feet I am challenging the thermals gods to prove that I am better and climb out. Even in a contest of todays format there is always the make or break round, having to scratch for lift to not drop a round. That is the measure of thermaling.

Any pilot can launch off todays winches with the right tapping. I also bet at most contests if a pilot went to the c/d and asked to launch off a highstart it would be allowed. No one is excluded. Yet you would introduce a paradigm that would exclude 85% of the current compitition fliers. And you say were are closeminded????

Anyone can grab a highstart and fly a woodie to their hearts content weather in a contest or not. Why would you deny me my right to do the same. You would do that in your format.

Bruce M

[liukku]

Think its time he changes his handle to Non-starter? ;)

...or at least lowstarter

/Ville

[dharban]

It is far easier to cave into the throng, then to stand for what you believe in.

I think I'll stand on a winch pedal tomorrow because I believe in letting the big dog run :D

Don


And I won't cave in to a thong :) . Never

[histarter]

AL,

You accuse the soaring masses of closemindedness. You propose one type of soaring as the true measure of thermaling and soaring. That in itself is closemindedness to the extreme.

No one participates in your HAM style becuase we have moved on. You have the audicty to say that it is not a true contest and more the pilot proving himself against the thermals. How can you have the gall to say that is any more soaring then what I do? Everytime I practice flying a moldie of a short highstart and launching to 200 feet I am challenging the thermals gods to prove that I am better and climb out. So why not keep a running stat score between LL and UL to show development i.e. the other part of HAM?
Any pilot can launch off todays winches with the right tapping. I guess I am retarded because I blow up sailplanes that you wouldn't! I also bet at most contests if a pilot went to the c/d and asked to launch off a highstart it would be allowed. No one is excluded. It took 6 years of pestering SLNT to get permission to put up a histart for TD. When Henry Bostic finally accepted, my group was too weak to handle the equipment. Yet you would introduce a paradigm that would exclude 85% of the current compitition fliers. And you say were are closeminded????
Why are they so cowardly that the Idea of "open" competition after a limited launch (to 500 feet - for example), how would it horribly affect them? Because other competitiors could launch to equal altitude? Ding dong somethings wrong here

Anyone can grab a highstart and fly a woodie to their hearts content weather in a contest or not. Why would you deny me my right to do the same. You would do that in your format. Bruce M My format is totally open. Anything that can launch with specified launch systems, and any weather one chooses?

[Mark Miller]

Al Says...

"My format is totally open. Anything that can launch with specified launch systems, and any weather one chooses?"

So is mine.

Mark

[histarter]

Al Says...

"My format is totally open. Anything that can launch with specified launch systems, and any weather one chooses?"

So is mine.

Mark
No it isn't. Your system is open ended with no launch specification relitive to tension!! Nor directly limited by altitude.

[IBWALT]

No it isn't. Your system is open ended with no launch specification relitive to tension!! Nor directly limited by altitude.

Al you don't know what your talking about. As far as a launch specification relative to tension goes the contestant is free to use whatever tension suits him. Use as little or as much as you desire. And your system does not limit altitude. You are free to get as much altitude out of your rubber band as you can or as little as you can.

Give up Al your riding a dead horse. Ham is dead. No one wants to fly it and you won't put on a Ham event/contest.

Ham is dead. Wake up and smell the corpse.


Walt

[histarter]

Al you don't know what your talking about. As far as a launch specification relative to tension goes the contestant is free to use whatever tension suits him. Use as little or as much as you desire. And your system does not limit altitude. You are free to get as much altitude out of your rubber band as you can or as little as you can. You are a pompous idiot! You have no concern for fairness as long as you have your way. This is my first and last (official) name calling. You represent the exterimnation of the newbie, as criminals enjoy gangland exicutions.


Give up Al your riding a dead horse. Ham is dead. No one wants to fly it and you won't put on a Ham event/contest.

Ham is dead. Wake up and smell the corpse. Stuff it!

Walt
Tell that to Professor, Grant and Shewhart who initiated the QC system for evaluation of random figures. Ooops they have deceased, so the math that is now used everywhere is just not good enough for what I believed was gifted engineers i.e. model aircraft enthusiasts. Now I have to back off, and pay my wager to Professor Berman who has been watching both sides of our discussions.

The wager was placed that America is not as brainwashed as the foreign countries, and that presenting a logical argument to sample group of seemingly intelligent humans could have positive results in changing their outlook.

I have to give up, Dr. Berman was totally correct when he stated that the students our Universities are turning out are too stupid (his students included), and the system cannot be turned around.

Anyone interested in Dr. Berman’s latest revolutionary paper on technical philosophy (related to Reality), I do have copies.

[Jimn8uay]

This thread really is confusing but, entertaining...just one question...what is a HAM event? Trying to figure it out from the discussion but not having any luck.
Has GPS settled in for good?
Jim

[Mark Miller]

Al Wrote,

"No it isn't."

Yes it is

Mark

[schrederman]

Al sez... Goodby!

Oh if only that's true... Is it too much to hope?

[Curare]

Wow that's an intelligent way to win an argument.

"you don't agree with me cos you're all too stupid through education!"

I fail to understand your point with all of this.

No contest where you can fly anything, anywhere?

I thought that was called free soaring?

But there are contestants and there are rules.

So which is it. Your posts are peppered with comments of winning, and being the better man, but there are snyde digs at those better than you, and that somehow they're not as "correct" as you about what thermalling is, all the while claiming that "this isn't a contest, it's a personal battle against the ghosts of thermalling"

Sounds like twisted, and confused ideological zealotry.

Oh and I'm not american.

[Bryan Quick]

It's psuedo-science. He must know what he's talking about because he's using big words. 'Oooh, oooh! Stop intimidating me with your incomprehensible words Mr. Smart Man!'

[rdwoebke]

This thread really is confusing but, entertaining...

No kidding, I took the night off from my vigil watching the groups to help my sister with some computer stuff/take my daughter to gymnastics/help my father get a scale rocket taped for painiting and come back and we have an extra 2 pages...

:)

Great way to start a morning.

:)


just one question...what is a HAM event?

Jim,

In a nutshell, it is:

1) All planes launching off a short medium strength high start. AKA 200 feet line 50 feet rubber, and not like bungee strong rubber, just regular high start rubber

2) 5 (or is it 6, I always get that confused) minute "max". This is more of a free flighter style max, not a "task" like we are normally accustomed to in TD. This means that if the "max" is 5 minutes, then a pilot does not have to concentrate on hitting 5 on the nose, a 5:30 is the same “max” as a 5:00.

3) A flight time minimum. AKA, if a new pilot scores a 1:00 or if a more seasoned pilot has a pop off or an equipment failure they still get counted as 2:00 no matter what.

4) Generous landing task (aka, 50 foot in/out circle) that only counts for 5 or 10 points (aka, seconds)

5) Focusing on getting in lots of flights, at least 12 to make up a full “string” (or contest, if you will).

6) The idea is that this system/contest/format/whatever you want to call it would be ideal to postals or pilots doing self evaluation. If it is ran with a bunch of guys flying at the same time, the idea is to make this “open launch” as opposed to MOM.

I happen to find a few things about this intriguing (and like a moth to a flame am drawn to these crazy threads). First, Al (Highstarter) claims that nobody has ever had 12 consecutive “maxes”. I sort of find such a thing a challenge and am a bit surprised nobody here in rcgroupsland gets pumped up about such a claim. AKA, somebody says “all right, buddy, I’m going to take my Topaz out and prove that I can make 12 max flights in a row”. Second, I think a lot of the things in the HAM format lend nicely to the type of beginning sailplane pilots I have met over my years in this hobby. So I’m sort of hoping to get a few folks in my rural area flying some RC gliders and working on the LSF program and have the hope that eventually, once they are not crashing, we could hold small local contests (probably splitting the HAM format into 4 flight “substrings”) for folks to use towards Level 2.

[jtlsf5]

Al sez... Goodby!

Oh if only that's true... Is it too much to hope?


Fear not, the scourge is infecting other threads.

[Mark Miller]

Ryan,

I tend to agree with you that HAM is intriguing and I happen to like what it affords the pilot to expand into a different envelope of flight. It may be fun to experiment and quantify our experience. I also happen to think that most of the posters here think similarly.

What I believe is a big road block in it's growth is the way Al has promoted it. His attitude where if you do not agree with him and change your life to emulate his views then you are brain washed and a product of the failing education system which in his mind rewards those who fall in line with a Borg like collective hell bent on taking civilization and soaring to it's doom. The weird part is that if the soaring world were to all of the sudden fall into line with Al's views are we not just a Borg like collective not thinking for ourselves and replacing our free will with A's views? Isn't his form of promotion/conversion just trying to brain wash us with demeaning, insulting, condescending, pseudo political paranoid vitriol? Real sales men usually use a kinder and gentler approach.

Evangelism can be a wonderful tool to promote something. Unfortunately sometimes it is used as a tool to control the free thoughts of others. i.e. If you follow Al's views you are a free thinker but if you fall outside his reality you are in lock step with the masses. David Koresh and Jim Jones proved that evangelism and paranoia are a toxic combination. Religion and faith can be a wonderful thing. Until it is used as a tool by an individual to control a group.

The current world of soaring has been formed by the free thinking and democratic will of the participants. There have been many fine men involved. Some that you know the names of and many who you do not. Al's hatred of the way we are only insults their fine work. There is no man behind the curtain controlling us to fly the way we do. He is us, and soaring will continue to evolve to fit the will of it's participants.

Mark

Mark

[rdwoebke]

What I believe is a big road block in it's growth is the way Al has promoted it.


"Read dozens of books about heroes and crooks
And I learned much from both of their styles"

-- Jimmy Buffet

I can't say I agree with everything Al has to suggest. For example, I think that running the overview of HAM I suggested in post 93 of this thread in a man on man type setup would be a lot of fun (for pilots that are at least a bit experienced). I'm not sure I really like his writing style either, but perhaps it harkens back from another time/age? When I read, for example, Moby Dick, the prose in that book is not common of what would be written today.

But, somehow I keep getting drawn into these threads. My life does not really lend well to me launching often off strings. But, I would like to start a thread some day where folks could post their HAM style data strings.

Ryan

[IBWALT]

Hello my name is Walt and I fed the troll. But I have entered the the 12 step program and with the help of my coach "schrederman", I hereby and forthwith promise to never feed any troll from this day forward.

Walt

[rdwoebke]

But I have entered the the 12 step program

I don't know if you are a fan of Penn and Teller or not, but they have a show on Showtime and the 12 step program episode of that show was fantastic.

Ryan

[liukku]

...is a troll always a troll, is there any cure available?

/Ville

[rdwoebke]

is there any cure available?



I'm on the fence with regards to the topic of if people can change. On one hand, the businessman in me says that past performance tends to predict future performance. On the other hand, I can and have seen people make big lifestyle/attitude changes.

<shrug>

Ryan