What high start to get for RES type sailplanes? [Archive]

schrederman

Mar 18, 2008, 10:24 PM

Well, I don't think we use them in competitions anymore. The size really depends on how big your model glider is. I launch my stuff, from 100" to 140" with a 3-meter High Start from Hobby Lobby. I bought only the rubber. I use 50 - 80# monofilament line. I use 100' of rubber and 400' of line. You will need about 900' of open space to fly from if you use this setup.

StevenatorLTFO

Mar 18, 2008, 10:41 PM

How big is the RES bird, they come in many sizes!!

I was launching my Topaz, with a 3 meter hosemonster, and it was more then plenty for it. If you have a smaller lighter RES bird, you will need a smaller high start.

Steve

lincoln

Mar 19, 2008, 12:58 AM

A strong 2 meter will launch with the same size that will do ok on a 3 meter, which I believe is 1/8" ID, 1/8" wall. Much bigger and you'd have to be stronger than I am to use it. And with sunscreen on hands, it's starting to get marginal as it is.

ozmo01

Mar 19, 2008, 01:27 AM

thanks guys,
yes most contests do the winch thing but I don't want to drop that much green. I think I will go with a Hose Monster 3M 100' set up and 1/2 it for smaller fields. Reuse the old reel and parashoot from my Gentle Lady days.
I think my neighbor's dog chain is staked out on one of those spiral jobs :p

aeajr

Mar 19, 2008, 06:58 AM

What is the all up weight of your plane?

Most likely a 2M or 2M competition Hosemonster would be fine for your plane. Or a www.nesil.com Pinnacle standard.

However, if you are looking to get more of a competition launch and might go to larger planes later, I would go to the Hosemonster 3M 100'/500 Hi-start or the Pinnacle Large. Both will give that plane a powerful launch. And, if it is built right, it should have no problem with the launch.

I have launched my Spirit RTF, and Gentle Lady ARFS off a Pinnacle XL at up to 7 times their weight with no problems of any kind.

With a stronger hi-start, the downside is that you will not pull it back as far to hit the desired pull strength. That means that the energy is released over a shorter period of time.

My Spirit launches off my Pinnacle XL just fine, but I only pull it 150 feet to get to 12-14 pounds of pull. I would actually get a less stressful launch and perhaps a better launch using the pinnacle large where I might be able to pull it 250 feet, or a medium where I could pull it the full 300 feet.

On the other hand, the more powerful hi-start will give you the pull you want in a smaller space, so there are compromises to be considered here.

Many clubs fly competitions off hi-starts. I am not aware of any regional contests that fly off hi-starts. But that doesn't matter. Use your hi-start to practice. When you go to the big regonals, get someone else to run the winch for you. Virtually all contests and CDs allow this. Even at the World Soaring Masters and the World F3J competitions, they use launchers while the pilot handles the radio.

Hope that helps.

trend.ab

Mar 19, 2008, 07:37 AM

I am using a Pinnacle medium and like it for its price and simplicity. All parts are good and work fine.
I am launching all my F3J/TD ships with it, even the heavier ones (Pike Perfect and Aspire).
Works well for me.

Beat
http://www.nesail.com/detail.php?productID=876

williamson

Mar 19, 2008, 11:34 AM

The Charles River site has a discussion of the size of a high start to match planes of different weights:

http://charlesriverrc.org/articles/design/dickwilliamson_histartphysics.htm

CloudyIFR

Mar 19, 2008, 11:35 AM

http://www.aerofoam.com/hosemonster.html

Test005

Mar 19, 2008, 07:53 PM

Hi guys

Im new to high starts but have experienced that a matched (lighter) rubber will get the plane higher with a smoother pull.
The generic answer here is mostly "get the hosemonster 3M" It'll be good for anything.
Although a beginner, I have to disagree that lot's of power is not the same as good launches... *helmet on*

Here's my view:
I bought the FVK Organic 2.5m sailplane and it weight just under 1kg. I borrowed an old (1980's sometime) weak hi-start from a friend. It had a thin square rubber, very weak and I could pull it very far with only minor increase of resistance.
The launches with the Organic was smooth and the plane climbed all the way to the top.

Now, I still needed to get my own hi-start and bought a 4.8mm inner dia /9.6mm outer dia rubber specified for "3meter glider, max 2.5kg".
It releases the energy too fast for my light plane and many times the Organic stalls halfway up the line because the energy is depleted.

I have thought about buying a 4.0mm/7.2mm "HLG" rubber to launch with, to see if I can get that smooth, soft pull back.... Whaddayathink?

Or in other words... What should I use to maximize launches on 1kg Organic & 1.xKg Ava???

aeajr

Mar 19, 2008, 08:05 PM

The New Glider Pilot's Handbook
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=575459#post6132089

Seems this might be helpful. There is an article in the handbook on learning to use a hi-start that may be useful.

Test005

Mar 19, 2008, 08:13 PM

Look at this video... This seems like a good, matched hi-tart to the Ava. The man launching is relaxed and can even pull back on the plane a bit and just gently toss it and up it goes.
Movie Clip (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showatt.php?attachmentid=906130)

When I launch the Organic on my 4.8/9.6mm rubber, I hang on to the plane for dear life and it's NOT relaxed :)

Can anyone confirm if a 4.0/7.2mm rubber would be a good match to the Organic & Ava?

ozmo01

Mar 20, 2008, 12:32 AM

Thanks guys I will be flying a 118" Big Bird XL. all up weight ??? Its still in the box. I know that's BAD very bad even my wife says I need to build.
I ordered the rubber only for the Hose Monster 3M 100' (117 bucks) to reuse an old real and shoot. I'll buy good seine line locally. I am hoping to make it to some local meets so STL is within day trip distance... think they could use a fresh victim? :D

ozmo01

Mar 20, 2008, 12:43 AM

I have flown a Gentle Lady off of a conventional high start many times and winch at a contest (maybe twice from winch) but guys it was 15 years ago or more. So am a fairly experienced builder and an inexperienced glider flyer.
I chose the Big Bird because I thought I could do a woody with out any trouble. And I could handle it in the air OK. If I don't embarrass myself this season I hope to build a Bubble Dancer for next year.
Thank you guys for all the great help, and I should have known to check the Charles river site :o

I will use this for practice and to let anyone at our club use it also.
Trying to stir up some glider enthusiasm here in SW Mo.
P.S. thanks aeajr

williamson

Mar 20, 2008, 07:44 PM

Test005 had the experience that a "matched lighter" high start will launch higher. The analysis on the Charles River Site explains what it takes to be "matched". With a "heavier" high start, you can't pull it back to 300% elongation without generating too much force for the plane. So you don't pull it back as far and the result is lower launches.

dwells

Mar 20, 2008, 09:33 PM

I bought a standard Dynaflight with a Spirit 2m plane and get very smooth and consistent launches. It does seem to be a long drawn out launch but the altitude is very good. I lay it out, stretch it out about 80 paces and let it rip. I haven't timed release to off hook but I'll bet it's like 20-25 seconds. I love the stability and the altitude. I think a lot has to do with the wind. I have launched on heavier Hi-Starts in the same winds but noticed no difference in the altitude but it bent my tow hook a little. I think this Dynaflight Hi-Start matches my plane perfectly.

lincoln

Mar 21, 2008, 12:07 AM

I dunno. With some of the carbon reinforced stuff they have these days you could pull the 3m rubber all the way for a 2M glider if it was strong. You could even zoom a little. But it helps to be a large person. And stubborn.

The highest high start launch will be with a barely adequate high start in the wind. You launch, and it pulls the rubber out more as it climbs until the rubber breaks. Of course, you may want to land in a hurry and go find your high start. If you're using a releasable towhook, you can keep it hooked and drag it back, but you'll be at about 20 feet when you drop it.

trend.ab

Mar 21, 2008, 07:21 AM

I flew a Cobra Open Ship at 85 ounces from my standard Pinnacle highstart (mentioned above) and logged a lot of these launches.

Best was to 930 feet (!!) in the wind, standard is to around 450 feet. With just a bit of wind, a launch takes 35-45 seconds.

I prefer a lighter highstart that is easier to pull back. Will give you lower launches in 0 wind conditions with a heavy plane (open ship), but just handles very well and easily.

I have since shortened the line quite a bit just to make handling easierj, can live without these launch heights.

aeajr

Mar 21, 2008, 09:42 AM

Very interesting post and very interesting charts. Thanks for sharing them. This is quite diferent from what I have read and seen before.

Any idea what kind of pull you are getting on that hi-start at full pull. My impression is that the Pinnacle Standard would be around 12 pounds at full pull which would be very light for a 5 pound plane.

trend.ab

Mar 21, 2008, 10:34 AM

Agree, pull is light, I don't know what it actually is.

I started using the highstart of a good and very experienced friend who flies 2m and learned that it works just fine for my open ships, as well.
The one thing you need to make sure is that you do throw the plane strongly, you can't just let it go out of your hand or it might stall and break to the side and dig in ...
I am also throwing the plane in thermal mode and switch to launch mode (max camber) when I am 30 feet or so up only.

In 0 wind, launches are ok. The more wind you have, the higher you get, the plane goes behind your head immediately after release in a breeze. The higher you get, the more you can zoom. You need to dive deeper as on the winch, because the energy in the rubber comes out over quited some distance as opposed to the winch line, where the optimal dive really is very short.

I tried some other highstarts at Visalia last year with the Supra (the Supra is totally no problem on a standard highstart). They were very thick, I could almost not hold the plane when they were fully pulled out. Joe Wurts gave me a launch, though, which felt much more like a winch launch then a slow and nice floating up.

For me the standard highstart is simple, really good fun and most of the time all I need to get up.
Beat

jrbackus

Mar 21, 2008, 11:23 AM

I have a Pinnacle Standard Hi-Start and I always pull it back as far as I can without fearing it to break, usually 60-70 paces and let her rip. I launch my 2M cheapie and 2.5M Art Hobby Thermic with it all the time with no problems at all.

--Jeremy

trend.ab

Mar 21, 2008, 01:28 PM

I use 110 paces for the same highstart. Maybe our paces have different length, I am 6.1

Beat

jrbackus

Mar 21, 2008, 01:59 PM

I use 110 paces for the same highstart. Maybe our paces have different length, I am 6.1

Beat

Hmmmmm... I'm 6' so we can't be off by that much. I haven't used it in a while (we just got ANOTHER 6 inches of snow today) so I could be off.

--Jeremy

bigjohn

Mar 21, 2008, 02:11 PM

I have a 3m highstart(orange, rubber only) and it does very well for 2m and 3m. The 2m I've launched was a full house NSP Omega which has a carbon D-box but open bay structure. With camber control you can tailor the plane to take advantage of the power. I also would 'zoom' the plane by letting the weight of the high-start rubber accelerate the plane then pulling off the line.

I also use it with a 3m Mako which does extremely well with it too. Have used it well with a 3m BoT some too.

Wish it could launch my 5m plane (13 lbs) but I think I'd rather tow it with a car.... :rolleyes:

ClayH

Mar 21, 2008, 02:32 PM

Test005 writes Or in other words... What should I use to maximize launches on 1kg Organic & 1.xKg Ava???

The reason that you get Hosemonster as the most common response is simply because they are the best. Their rubber, if properly cared for, will outlast any other you can find. You have plenty of choice in both rubber size and rubber/line configuration to " match" the highstart to your plane for maximum launch. You can order your rubber and line with connectors that allow you to mix combos for different size fields or for different tasks. The Hosemonster rubber can also be stretched to 600% if need be. No other rubber can take that stretch. I typically use 300% as my guide and usually launch at 450 to 500 feet, higher with a good headwind. I fly both my Ava and my Perfect off their 3 meter rubber and am completely satisfied with the launches.

Clay

Test005

Mar 21, 2008, 04:02 PM

What is the diameter on the 3m hosemonster?? (in mm metric if possible). I have the feeling this is the same rubber available in europe by emc-vega.de

Do you think the Pinnacle standard would be a good mach for my Ava & Organic?
I def. would like something lighter than my 9.6mm rubber that unloads slower.
Here's my launches in light wind, barely 300 feet. Not happy with it!

(Note: the graph say "feet" but it's meassured in meters. Don't know why my zlog suddenly names the graph 'feet')
http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/5500/launchyf1.jpg

Lance Prior

Mar 21, 2008, 05:08 PM

here are the specs but they are in inches.

http://www.aerofoam.com/hosemonster.html

Wazmo

Mar 21, 2008, 05:24 PM

2 meter 1/8"ID x 1/16" wall = 6.4 mm OD, 3.2 mm ID
Comp 2 meter 1/8"ID x 3/32"wall = 7.9 mm OD, 3.2 mm ID
3 meter 1/8"ID x 1/8"wall = 9.5 mm OD, 3.2 mm ID
Unlimited (4 meter) 1/8"ID x 5/32" wall = 11.1 mm OD, 3.2 mm ID

Test005

Mar 21, 2008, 06:16 PM

Thanks alot for translating to metric... Being European, your 'standard' inch system is hard to grasp :)
Which one of these would be the best fit for my planes you think?
The Organic weights about 33oz and the Ava will come in at about 40oz.

bobby legue

Mar 21, 2008, 08:33 PM

The three meter. Im using it for my Topaz and my 64 ounce 3 meter Gnome. As well as my Oly 650 and 2x4. I have 25 flyable planes and it handles them all.
I do take advantage of removing half the line from time to time, such as when there isnt any wind and Im launching something heavy like my Marauder with 1 pound of ballast to practice landings.
Bob

Wazmo

Mar 21, 2008, 08:39 PM

bobby legue

Mar 21, 2008, 08:46 PM

I disagree. The only issue for flying a light plane seems the string is heavy. So I keep 250 feet on 60 pound mono line on a spool with snap swivels on both ends. I hardly ever use it though. Im getting near 600 foot launches with the mason line. Some times when I cut loose of the histart the chute pops open with a sound that brings a smile to my face.
To each his own,
Bob

SmokinJoe101

Mar 21, 2008, 09:14 PM

Hi
I am going to order a high start but would like one that is used commonly in competitions. Whats a good one? most common dia. and rubber length?

How does a question like this go for 32 posts and three pages :eek:

sorry had to ask.

sj

jallen

Mar 22, 2008, 09:09 AM

Why launch to the moon? I use a short field set up and launch from a football field with 50 feet of hose and 225 feet of line. Takes my four and five pound Skybench Birds up about 250 feet, which makes thermal hunting more demanding and much more fun when you hook up.

aeajr

Mar 22, 2008, 09:14 AM

But launching to the moon is fun.

Test005

Apr 18, 2008, 01:03 PM

I ordered the 2M comp (1/8"ID x 3/32"wall) from hosemonster and plan to make the ultimate matched high-start for my Ava & Organic.

I will put 120meters of the thinnest available braided fishing line on it and hopefully it'll work out as a matched, light high-start with maximum launch capability.

ps. Mark @ hosemonster is a great guy, thumbs up for his service

aeajr

Apr 18, 2008, 01:44 PM

The three meter might be a little much for floaters like the Organic and Ava. The specs say 14-18 pounds (6.4-8.2 kg), which is about 6-7 times the weight of those gliders. You'll get less stretch at the desired (3-5x) pull, which means less altitude. However, it's close enough that it should come down to personal preference.

The AVA and organic can take a full pedal launch off a winch that is using 200 pound line. The only way you can hurt an AVA or an Organic with a hi-start would be to crash it.

I launch my Spirit 2M woody at 14 pounds, about 6X its weight with no problems over hundreds of launches. Launches real high with a bit of a zoom at the end. :D

Test005

Apr 19, 2008, 04:07 AM

Yes aeajr, I know, but I'm trying to get a light high-start that is matched to the planes for maximum launch.
A lighter rubber will dispence it's energy over longer time and let the plane go higher before depleeting it's energy...Well, that's my theory anyways :)

lincoln

Apr 19, 2008, 10:31 AM

If you're strong enough, use the 3M size, pull it out fully, and zoom off the top. However, a glider that weighs only 30 to 40 oz ought to fly off that "competition 2 meter" just fine. After all, plenty of 2M weigh more than that. Things will be more relaxed. I've got the 3M so I can launch anything but my hlg off it, however I have to make sure I'm holding the glider very securely, have to wipe off the sunscreen from my hands, etc.

I enjoy flying hlg off a thin high start sometimes, but it really has to be thin if it's a wood hlg such as a Chrysalis.

sneasle

Apr 19, 2008, 01:42 PM

I launch my Vista on 3M HL rubber. I agree that you want a 'weaker' rubber for your plane. I am only able to get about 100ft of stretch on mine before my arm gets stressed. I run about 400ft with extra pieces in 50ft and 100ft. This lets take the line out to 550ft which is great when using the 3M rubber with a smaller plane because the line will give you a little bit of stretch to compensate for the shorter distance the hi-start is traveling.

Using 400ft of line the launches are very fast. The vista usually makes it up in 15-20seconds.