Brandon winch in SoCal…

[machild]

Disclaimer: There has been a lot of recent discussion on high-powered winches and line strength; this is not the place to resurrect the debate. If you feel particularly strongly about the subject, please post responses in the appropriate forum. This is a review of a new product that exhibits a great deal of potential, so please respect the spirit with which this review was written. Thanks…

Ask three different glider drivers what constitutes the ideal winch, and you’d probably be treated to three widely differing theories. Winches run the gamut from home-built units to widely popular (and readily available) commercial machines. Back in the mid- to late-80s, the only alternative to building your own winch was the trusty Rahm winch. Cy Rahm pioneered the every-man winch, and a number of his winches and retrievers are still living out their long service lives (even though, sadly, Cy has long since passed).

A number of kits are available that require the flier to supply his own motor, but few ready-to-run options exist today. Tim Mc Cann immediately comes to mind, and his winches (either in kit or ready-to-run form) are excellent units, but Jim Brandon (www.theshope.net) also offers a winch that is ready-to-run (and innovative in many ways).

The heart of an efficient winch is its motor-drum-battery combination, and the 2048 winch has been designed around a very potent motor, a drum of optimal (if not standard dimensions) and the Optima D31 marine deep-cycle battery. Jim has done exhaustive testing to get this combination just right, and the end result of all the testing is a winch that can be as aggressive or gentle as the glider driver desires.

Upon first inspection, the 2048 appears to be similar to the Mc Cann winch, but a closer examination reveals that the 2048 is very different in many ways. The most obvious difference is the motor the 2048 uses. According to Jim, the motor represents a departure from the traditional Ford LS motor. The 2048’s hydraulic pump motor was sourced expressly for the task the winch was designed to perform and produces almost five horsepower (4.8 nominal). It is rated for continuous use and is extremely powerful, silky smooth and deceptively gentle (used in conjunction with the 2048’s pedal). At the end of a full day of pulling Pike Perfects and Maruders into the air, the motor was only slightly warm to the touch and the battery still had plenty of juice left in it.

The 2048’s twin solenoids, short warning lights and cycle counter makes keeping tabs on the winch’s mechanical health easy.

The drum is optimally sized for the winch (again, a design feature Jim considered thoroughly). With a two-inch spool and six-inch endplates, the drum seems to follow the standard dimensions of other drums currently available through any number of sources but when used in combination with the 2048 motor produces a nice balance of torque and line speed. With the turn-around 500 feet downfield, the winch would noticeably flex the wings on the Pike Perfects we were towing up with it (something we had not seen up to that point). The winch came with two rolls each of #36 line, which is stout enough to withstand the abuse molded TD/F3J ships can dish out yet stretches comfortably when the slack is taken up prior to launch (you don’t get your plane yanked out of your hand).

Of the combination at the heart of the 2048, the battery is probable the second most important component (behind the motor). When we first started testing the 2048, a D31 was still a few days away, so we used one of our bargain-brand batteries and were disappointed with the 2048’s performance. There had to be more to this winch than what we were experiencing. When the Optima battery arrived and was connected to the winch by its slick quick-connect-disconnect cables, the winch instantly turned into a totally different beast. A battery other than the D31 would suffice provided it produced the same cold cranking amperage. Tuan Li connected his very accurate voltmeter to the battery to check the amperage draw on launch; perhaps Tuan can post his data (it’s interesting).

The retriever we tested is very similar in design to an old Rahm retriever. The major differences are Jim’s retriever uses a 12V battery (no need for a special six-volt battery), the retriever frame keeps the spool off the ground and the Brandon retriever takes up line from the right side instead of the left side (something that took a little getting used to). While the retriever is simple in design and function, it still tends to suffer from the same problems inherent with a retriever of this sort, namely issues with line spool-out at launch and twisted retriever line because of the relatively small size of the spool. Good quality swivels help to alleviate the line twisting issues, but occasional line snags while the retriever line is spooling out are almost unavoidable. Still, the retriever performs flawlessly when the line is seasoned and properly tensioned.

We are far from finished testing the 2048, but all indications point to a truly innovative design. Can the 2048 snap wings? Yes. Can it easily tow up a Gentle Lady? Yes. That’s probably the most appealing aspect of the 2048; it can be as wild or tame as you need it to be. With only 500 feet of line to the turnaround, launches and pings were consistently (and effortlessly) high.

We plan to test the 2048 along side my Black Widow equipped with an Injoy motor and Mc Cann endplates to determine what differences exist in performance and battery life, so we’re far from done here.

Hits:
• Powerful
• Smooth
• Great launches
• Compact
• Reliable
• Thoughtfully designed and engineered

Misses:
• Brake arm is too short and light; winch line tends to backlash at the end of retrieve
cycle (something Jim and we are addressing)
• Retriever suffers from the same issues inherent in retrievers of this design

The 2048 winch and retriever combo would make a great choice for a club looking to invest in one (or two systems), and the 2048 winch alone may even be just the ticket for the serious contest glider driver but might be a little too powerful for the Sunday sport flier. Another less powerful version of the 2048 is available for the sport flier, but given the smooth way the 2048 performs, there are no reasons that it can’t fill both niches (provided you keep a light foot on the pedal and an eye on those flexing wings).

[jrerickson]

Excellent review! Thanks for writing it up. Our club winches are on small trailers so everything is fairly easy to tote around. We have twin solenoids like the one you reviewed; we've never had a run away. We did have one solenoid fail awhile ago, but the second one did it's job.

Are you going back to back with twin swivels on the retriever line? This method works pretty well to minimize twist.

Our club also has 6 volt winches for built up/lighter planes, but I agree, with judicious use of the pedal you can take anything up the line. The biggest detriment, in my opinion, is not the horsepower but the weight of the line. We're using 190# test and it really bogs down a plane like the Easy Glider or a Gentle Lady.

It's interesting, with light line on a 6v winch you can get a very high launch by kiting the plane and not using up much line on the spool. It's all about matching the launch equipment to the plane. (Uh oh, I know who is now going to jump in...)

John

[machild]

John! Quick, close that can of worms… :D You should join us some time in the near future to give this winch a spin. I think you'll be impressed.

[ThermalBuster]

Thanks for a timely review. I had just seen the retriever today and wondered about its performance. The winch I had been reading about during its development. Both are nice pieces and I'm glad they're available to us soaring guys.

The retriever issues of snarls jumping off the drum have been fought for years. Our experience indicates that the key issue is getting the line tight on the retriever drum. If there is any looseness or softness in the line on the drum snarls will eventually come off the drum.

It is important that the line be pulled off the drum by the winch after any incident that would let the retriever line be pulled back on the retriever without significant tension. It doesn't work to respool the retriever against glove or shoe friction. Pull the retriever line off with the winch until you get down to tight hard retriever line and then retrieve it again.

This is true for any retriever whether its a Rahm, a Hands-Free or this new retriever from Brandon.

Hope this helps folks deal with this issue.

Rick

[fnnwizard]

I took some videos of the current readings and voltage drop but without knowing the turnaround distance and altitude reached and other missing data the info is not too usefull. Still to see a Plane pull 400+ amps on the winch is kinda kool.

My Pike had a wiper issue on the rudder that caused the servo to burnout so I couldn't launch it like I would have liked and my Zlog was program wrong so it did not record any Altitude data:(

But here's a couple videos of the current readings while Mark's Pike Perfect was on tow. The clamp on amp meter goes to 400A in .1 A increment , if it sense a reading greater than 400 it goes "OL" for a split second, then it switches to 1A increments for anything over 400.1 A to 1000A.

I wonder what 2P batteries will let that winch do.


Pike Perfect Launch 1 on JB Winch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JfFeQXoBbo) (0 min 14 sec)


Pike Perfect Launch on JB Winch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgHQOVOz1CA) (0 min 15 sec)

[jfrickie]

I added a plate to the frame of my winch. It makes it easier for me to set it up (3 stakes vs 6), the ground I fly from does get extremely hard in the summer and sometimes it is really hard to get the stakes out with out damage to the winch.

[tonyestep]

Zowie! The highest number I saw was (I think) 434A. If the voltage is, say, 10V at that point, you have 4340W, which is 5.8 HP. That ought to pull it up, all right.

BTW, for the benefit of those whose interest is piqued by this info but don't know how to get in touch with Jim Brandon, his web site is:

http://www.theshope.net/

[rogerflies]

jfrickie,

Instead of securing the plate solidly to the winch base, you could secure it with one bolt just behind the center of the drum. Have slotted holes for all the other bolts between the winch and the plate. Use carriage bolts with the heads on the bottom of the plate.

Stake the plate down to the ground. Run the winch to see if the line winds level on the drum. Rotate the winch slightly about the pivot bolt (the one behind the drum) to get the alignment just right, then tighten all the bolts between the winch and plate.

This makes it very easy to get perfect alignment without repeatedly removing the stakes and driving them in again.

Roger

[BrianSmith]

Looks good. Do you use a retreiver? I have my winch and ret. mounted on a trailer. You gonna make the Gateway open? We may be there. BCNU. Brian


I added a plate to the frame of my winch. It makes it easier for me to set it up (3 stakes vs 6), the ground I fly from does get extremely hard in the summer and sometimes it is really hard to get the stakes out with out damage to the winch.

[BrianSmith]

Did you mean 6V batteries? 6V winch with a 12V battery is the norm? Just wondering? Brian


Our club also has 6 volt winches for built up/lighter planes, but I agree, with judicious use of the pedal you can take anything up the line. The biggest detriment, in my opinion, is not the horsepower but the weight of the line. We're using 190# test and it really bogs down a plane like the Easy Glider or a Gentle Lady.

It's interesting, with light line on a 6v winch you can get a very high launch by kiting the plane and not using up much line on the spool. It's all about matching the launch equipment to the plane. (Uh oh, I know who is now going to jump in...)

John[/QUOTE]

[jfrickie]

Looks good. Do you use a retreiver? I have my winch and ret. mounted on a trailer. You gonna make the Gateway open? We may be there. BCNU. Brian


Thanks Brian. I use one of the E-Z retrievers that Jim Harger built back about 1993-96. Ive made 1000s of retrieves with it. I just put a new motor in it,the last one was about 7 years old, but still worked. Ive already got motel reservations in St.Charles,just waiting for them to open registration. See you there. I might even bring my AVA!

[jfrickie]

Thanks for the info Roger. I have a extra plate I can set up to give it a try.

[machild]

Jim fabricated a new brake arm for the winch we are testing. In an effort to address back-lashing during the retrieve cycle, Jim crafted a 7-inch-long arm with a sizable amount of led shot epoxied into a pocket on the arm's underside.

The longer, heavier arm should inmprove/increase the arm's braking impulse on the drum.

I will remove the old arm and shoot a pic of it next to the new arm as a basis for comparison, and we will test the new arm and winch in the coming days. According to Jim, if this new arm works as we think it will, he might consider offering it as an option.

More to follow…

[rogerflies]

I'd like for you fellows to do me a favor, please.

Measure how much line tension is required to release the brake on the 2048 winch with the original brake arm and again with the longer brake arm. Take the measurements with very little line left on the drum.

I'm just curious about how the tension measurements on a regular winch compare to what I see on my ClutchWinch, and about how much difference the new arm makes.

Thanks,
Roger

[Miami Mike]

The 2048’s twin solenoids, short warning lights and cycle counter makes keeping tabs on the winch’s mechanical health easy.Those warning lights won't help much unless everybody remembers to keep an eye on them, and they won't show up very well in the bright sunlight. What you need is a buzzer that sounds off whenever one solenoid is closed and the other is open.

http://www.vvsss.com/buzzer/

http://www.vvsss.com/buzzer/blinky_version.jpg

[rogerflies]

You could also use a Truly Redundant footswitch. It has two microswitches, one for each solenoid, which close at slightly different times as you depress the pedal. One solenoid closes and opens without any current across the contacts, so the contacts cannot weld themselves together. But they are a backup if the other set welds.

You can tell if one of the solenoids has gone bad just by listening to the sounds as the pedal is depressed and noting when the motor starts to run. You'll hear the click of the first solenoid before the motor starts. If the motor starts when the pedal is part way down, the second solenoid is bad.

I'll be happy to share the details of making one with anyone who's interested.

Roger

[machild]

Roger, will do; and Mike, very cool device…very cool…

[jbrandon]

I'd like for you fellows to do me a favor, please.

Measure how much line tension is required to release the brake on the 2048 winch with the original brake arm and again with the longer brake arm. Take the measurements with very little line left on the drum.

I'm just curious about how the tension measurements on a regular winch compare to what I see on my ClutchWinch, and about how much difference the new arm makes.

Thanks,
Roger
Roger, not sure about how much line tension is required to release the brake but the force exerted between the 6” non weighted and the 7 ½” weighted arm is 30 grams or a little more than an ounce. Of course this is a static measurement. What little bit of testing I have been able to do the longer arm does provide a more positive braking action, the longer weighed arm even more. The flat belt does provide a little bit of down force also. Extremely subjective.

Here again we are trying to resolve a problem the SC guys are having during the retrieve phase not the launch. The several owners of Winch2048’s here have put our collective heads together and have come to the conclusion we do see a little backlash on the retrieve but we position the line guide out 20-25 feet so when we pick up the line and pull it back to the winch the little bit of backlash is gone and not an issue.

Mark and his fellow fliers resolved the issue with the addition of added weight taped to the arm thus I weighted the arm internally but stick on weights could be added to the under side of the arm also.

Originally I picked the 6” arm because of stock size and minimum storage area. With the arm up it was not higher than the motor. With the longer arm it is still below the height of the handle. I chose not to use a bent piece of stock which would be easier and cheaper because it is easy to bend out of position with improper handing and I can insure a good pivot with minimum side to side play providing more positive braking action. I also chose not to use the common V belt braking because I felt it was too aggressive and caused more problems when light weight planes were launched which allowed slack to form during the launch – not a problem with the molded planes!

Jim

[jbrandon]

Those warning lights won't help much unless everybody remembers to keep an eye on them, and they won't show up very well in the bright sunlight. What you need is a buzzer that sounds off whenever one solenoid is closed and the other is open.

Shameless plug!

The LED’s (http://pdfcatalog.digikey.com/T081/digikey.pdf) – page 2421 (Sunbite SSP-01TWB2UPW12 or Digikey 441-1000-ND) selected are very bright and quite visible in bright direct sunlight and are totally self contained – no other components (http://theshope.net/Solenoid%20Shorted%20Warning%20LED.pdf) are necessary to make the circuit work or fail… Green was picked for go! Yes a buzzer is a nice addition but I tried your setup (made by Cal) and it said I had a failed solenoid after three launches. I quit and changed the solenoid; back at the field 4 launches later I had a buzz from the same solenoid side. I gave up.

Yes it does require someone to be present and aware of the condition of the winch but then I do believe someone should be responsible for the equipment and monitor it. You don’t let your 5 year old go out to play without keeping an eye on them – do you?

Jim

[rogerflies]

I just looked at the picture of the 2025 winch. It looks to me like you could move the attachment point for the end of the belt closer to the drum. That would increase braking action without a need to add weight or lengthen the arm. It would be fairly easy to make the action adjustable by providing several places in the arm for the belt end fitting bolt to go.

Roger

[dhauch]

I just looked at the picture of the 2025 winch. It looks to me like you could move the attachment point for the end of the belt closer to the drum. That would increase braking action without a need to add weight or lengthen the arm. It would be fairly easy to make the action adjustable by providing several places in the arm for the belt end fitting bolt to go.

Roger

roger you are correct.
i just played around with moving that end of the belt when i put the spring on mine to lock the drum for using mono, and it makes a HUGE difference in the braking action.

dh
www.rc-builds.com

[Miami Mike]

Shameless plug!I'm glad you brought this out in the open. It's the first complaint I've heard in the three years since I shamelessly shared the idea and circuit details with everyone on the Internet, gave Cal Posthuma my permission to build and sell the units absolutely free of any royalties to me, and donated several units to others at my expense. I've spent some money on this project but I've never recouped a dime, nor did I ever want to.

If your buzzer behaved as you say then there was a reason, and it's most likely that it wasn't built right. It could have had a short circuit or bad connection, or had one or more defective parts such as a bad relay, or had parts with the wrong values such as the wrong relay or wrong resistor values. It's not very likely that you hooked up the unit wrong or that there really was something wrong with your solenoid, and there certainly is nothing wrong with my circuit.

I have no way of knowing what the quality is of the units that Cal Posthuma is selling. After he built the first one he emailed me with a complaint that he couldn't get it to work right. Then, after I exchanged a couple of emails with him, he finally reported that he had found the problem. I think he said it was shorted wires or a bad solder connection or something. That made me a little uneasy, but I had already given him my permission to sell the units. After that he started advertising them on his web page along with his plain LED kits. Since then he's never even sent me one of the units so that I could evaluate it. He identifies it as an "LED with sound" kit rather than the name I gave it, and he acknowledges me on his web page with a tiny "thanks for the help" note in small print at the bottom of the page.

I urge you contact Cal Posthuma and get him to replace the unit with a good one. If he won't help you or there are any more complaints like yours, I might consider removing the links to his site and encouraging everyone to build their own units. After all, that was my original intention.






.

[rogerflies]

I'd still like to see some measurements on the line tension required to release the brake on Jim's and/or Tim's winches. Take the measurements with almost all the line off the drum, pulling parallel to the ground several feet away from the winch. Increase tension until the belt is clear of the drum. It would also be interesting to see how much line tension is required to overcome the bearing and brush drag of the motor to get the drum turning.

The trick with the flat belt brake is to control where it touches first on the drum. The further around toward the turnaround side it makes first contact, the stronger the braking action will be. I need to stop the drum very quickly on my ClutchWinches since I wait until there's almost no tension on the line. The arm on the brake solenoid swings the end of the belt toward the drum as it tightens it. You can see it in the first part of the video here:
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/1003/winchman/Videos/?action=view&current=Winch-1.flv

I sometimes see the line start to balloon out around the drum from centrifugal force just before the brake comes on. That happens when there's a lot of tension on the line at the end of the launch, but it's never caused a tangle.

The ballooning line may actually be holding the arm up and delaying the braking a little. On the other hand, it may be brushing against the tube, and pulling the arm down to start the braking. It happens to quickly for me to tell which.

Roger

[jbrandon]

Roger, I really don’t have any real measurements to give you. I actually have nothing to measure the pull on the line other than an old fish scale and it is about as accurate as my finger in the wind!

On my winches the brake band adds almost no extra drag on the line or drum when free wheeling. Yes it does take a little line pull to lift the band off the brake drum but as far as I can tell it is very little – just the weight of the brake arm which is about 100g 7” weighed arm or 40g with the 6” non weighted arm to lift the arm from its rest position. Remember the 3-4 to 1 multiplier due to the arm length.

Of course there is some drag induce with the resistance of the motor brushes and inherent friction of the motor and bearings used in the winch build – again how much I can’t really give you a figure.

The one thing I did was position the anchor is such a manor as to force the band into the drum when the arm is down (braking action) but makes the band arc out away from the brake drum when the arm is in the up or launch position. The pivot point on the brake arm is close to the drum again to give positive force on the brake drum providing a positive braking action when the line is slack. My brake band pivot currently is not adjustable and may be something I need to address in the future.

Like you I played with the V belt brake at one time but was never happy with the overall performance of the V belt – either all on or all off – nothing in between. The V belt does give very positive braking but I have always felt it provided too positive braking during the slack times during the launch causing extra drag on the line during the launch. Yes, it does absolutely provide the non back lashing braking action needed by the inexperienced and will almost always eliminate a winch back lash condition whereas with the flat brake band can cause some back lash with an inexperienced flyer. Something I am willing to deal with.

I’m sure this is not what you were looking for but is all I can add at this time but will try to get more detailed information for you as the weather gets better.

Jim Brandon
www.theshope.net (http://www.theshope.net/)

[rogerflies]

I can think of several ways to make a winch brake that provides positive braking action without having a heavy arm, but they all involve adding a microswitch (to initiate the braking), some sort of electrical actuator (to pull the belt tight), and some sort of timer (to keep from running the battery down).

I could eliminate the timer if I used a spring to pull the belt tight along and had an electrical actuator to overcome the spring to release the belt when there was no tension on the line. The actuator would draw 2-3 amps only when there was tension on the line. There would be no draw while the winch was sitting idle. The actuator could be something like a door lock solenoid from a car or a just small motor. The downside of that approach is that you have to have the winch hooked up to the battery to spool the line out or have a manual override. I hate manual overrides. They're too easy to forget, and then you've got a mess.

I realize you want to keep the winch as simple as possible, but sometimes you have to strike a balance between simplicity and getting something that works like you want it to reliably. I'm probably a lot more willing to give up simplicity that most people, but I did pull the plug on the microprocessor-contolled winch after proving that it would work and then finding out I'd have to have a separate power supply to run the electronics. It did away with the belt and the arm. It just had a couple magnets on the drum.

Let me know if I can help you come up with something.

There's another measurement you might be able to make that would be useful. See how much pull it takes to lift the arm. I've attached a picture to show how I do it.

Roger

[jbrandon]

I think we got to the bottom of the backlash issue the guys in California were experiencing. I sent a new longer, weighted brake arm to Clay and he installed it and during the process got the arm to swing freely thus eliminating the backlash at the end of the retrieve.

I was able to get out and fly last Saturday and duplicate the problem they were seeing. I had a brand new winch also and while setting it up experience the same backlash Clay was seeing – again the arm was too tight on the pivot. You could launch with no backlash but upon the retrieve there is less pull on the line and the bail is not as high causing the problem. Once loosened (still no side play) even the six inch non weighted arm I am using drops fast and provides positive braking. Note to self: Double check the arm before shipping!

On a side note I have finished two W9149 to FLS adaptors and will be available about the first of May. Price has not been determined yet but they will not be all that expensive. Probably the simple bolt on will be free with the purchase of a new W9149 motor, the other requiring more work will involve some cost.

One is a simple bolt on adaptor and may require the winch owner to narrow their drum about 1/4" due to the thickness of the adaptor.

The second is a complete end plate replacement. The advantage of this is it incorporated into the motor its self plus it will allow up to 1/2” more usable shaft length so any drum should fit.

Jim Brandon
www.theshope.net (http://www.theshope.net/)

[jimsoars]

For what it is worth, I too had a winch backlash problem with my retriever and all I did was put a #64 rubber band on the arm back down to the frame. I put a cup hook on the frame to attach the rubber band. This makes it easy to make the arm have more tension for the retriever, but we take it off when we retrieve by hand.
Jim

[jbrandon]

Really the first day here in the Midwest that has been conducive to flying as a group. Mild temperatures, no rain, ground not too wet and a Saturday!

We used the Winch2048 and the Retriever2000 with only a single issue. One backlash was seen (during launch) and the pilot just needed a little retraining after the long, cold, snowy and did I mention long cold winter!

Yes, due to the speed of the retrieve there are a few (un)warps of line on the ground (picture attached) in front of the winch once the retrieve is stopped. As with most retrievers it must be powered full speed all the way back (no pulsing) to insure good line warp on the retriever drum to assure the line comes off evenly during the next launch. With the retriever line guide out about 20 feet we found once the ring was pulled back to ready the winch for the next launch this loose line is pulled out and everything is nice and snug for the next launch. I do not really consider this a backlash but just very loose line wrap on the drum because it pulls out easily by just pulling the ring the rest of the way back (20 feet).

We launched 5 fliers from 9:00AM until 4:30PM today with only the one incident with the winch; this one incident was an admitted pilot error. We were using my personal Winch2048 (with #36 line) and my personal Retriever2000. The winch has a non weighted six inch brake arm without a loop bail which is what we here in the Midwest prefer to use. It provides adequate breaking without the suddenness of the long, heavy brake arm or V belt brake system. We launched Pike Prefect’s, Sharon’s, Onyx’s and a whole bunch of old mans planes, Ava’s (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=855637). We were setup with 500 feet to the turnaround and the launches were – well in a word – AWESOME - as was the lift today.

My many thanks to Rex, David, Tim, Jim and Bernie for all their help it doing a very complete (re)test of the winch, retriever and the setup today.

Jim Brandon
www.theshope.net (http://www.theshope.net/)

[machild]

After several weekends of exhaustive testing and trouble-shooting, our 2048 is performing perfectly. We were experiencing consistent backlashing after a line retrieve and felt the small brake arm was the culprit.

We weighted the stock arm, and doing so tamed the backlashing a bit, but we felt the arm could be longer (and heavier). Jim took our suggestions and came up with a seven-inch-long arm with a led shot insert toward the end of the arm.

After installing the new arm, we noticed an immediate improvement in the backlashing. The heavier arm, combined with keeping the arm nice and free-moving, eliminated the pesky backlashes. The brake belt chirps when line tension goes away after a ping, and the drum stops almost immediately after a retrieve.

We changed Jim's single, open line bail to one with a closed loop. We experienced the line jumping the drum's outside end plate and becoming tangled in the outside bearing race (not good—major snafu).

Clay fashioned a closed-loop line bail from soft brass rod and installed it on the end of Jim's longer and heavier arm. Clay also installed a stop to limit the arm's upward travel. Bottom line: All problems solved; the 2048 has performed flawlessly ever since.

Jim has since sent Clay an even newer arm with a stainless steel closed-loop line bail and a poured led insert; the current arm's insert is led shot in epoxy.

The 2048 is now ready to be toted to a couple of local soaring contests to see how it performs under the abuse the local SoCal contest junkies can heap on winches. If the 2048 continues to perform flawlessly, I don't foresee any problems.

We'll post some pics of the new arm (and other stuff) as soon as Clay installs it.

Great job, Jim. The new arms have been the ticket to consistent performance for us. Thanks!

Mark

[jbrandon]

The lead is melted and deflexed – the arm is heated and then poured. Once cooled the arm is machined to size and finished in the normal manner. This gives a very nice almost invisible finish to the underside of the arm. The poured lead slug will not fall out with use as the glued shot may plus you gain a little more weight due to no space between the shot.

As I said in an earlier message we here have seen no problems with the length or weight of the brake arm. We have also adapted the open bail vs the loop making winch line maintenance easier due to not having to make sure the line is though the hoop. I cannot tell you how many times I have worked on the line only to find I forgot to put it though the loop before tying it to the ring.

I know the guys in California experienced some major backlash problems during retrieve and the line did get wrapped around the out board bearing support on at least one occasion. Again we here have not seen anything like this in a years use. But I think we did identify the problem as being the pivot being too tight (my fault) not allowing the arm to fall fast or low enough during the retrieve and not really the weight or length of the arm.

I will continue to provide winches with the 6” non-weighted arm as standard but will make both the 6” and the 7 1/2” weighted arm available along with the closed loop bail if wanted but I currently do not feel the weight or the closed loop bail is necessary for safe reliable operation.

Jim Brandon
www.theshope.net (http://www.theshope.net/)

[ClayH]

Jim,

I have to second Mark's comments on the winch the last two weekends. Flawless performance launch after launch. Last weekend I even had a guy launch his two meter arf Fling on the 2048 winch. It was his first time ever on a winch. Your motor is so easy to tap lightly that we had no trouble launching his plane without destroying it. You should have seen the smile on his face after his second launch.

Then I launched my Perfect as hard as I care to for TD flying, easily launching to 600 feet with only a 400 foot turnaround. I really couldn't be any happier with your product. And when I'm done, it's compact and light enough to sit on the passenger seat for the ride home in my crowded car.

I realize that it's likely that we didn't need to change the arm. just to loosen it up may have solved the problem. But I've always use closed loop winches and we haven't had an issue since changing to it on the 2048. For R and D purposes I suppose we should re-install the oringinal arm and try it to verify our findings. We'll see.

Clay

[rogerflies]

I borrowed my friend's clutch-winch, and removed the line from the drum to take the measurements I was looking for a while back. It's got an Injoy 2025 motor. It's probably got about 150 launches on it.

With the brake off and one layer of line on the 2" hub, it took 3 pounds of line tension to turn the motor. I applied the tension straight out horizontally from the top of the hub about five feet away from the winch.

I next made a temporary brake arm that touched the line at about the same place as on Jim's winch. It was weighted so it put 1/4 pound of downward force on the line. It took 6 pounds of tension on the winch line to raise the arm enough so that it would have released the brake. I don't know how much the arm weighs on Jim's winch, but I'd guess it's a bit more, since it's filled with lead shot or a solid slug of lead. If it weighs 1/2 pound, it'll take about 12 pounds of pull to get the brake to release so you can retrieve the line.

Do those figures sound about right?

Roger