Z-drives.

[towboatjoe]

Hey gang, I'm looking to buy a pair of Z-drives. I'm looking for refferals from modelers who have used them as to the best units to get. Also would like to know what you dislike about other Z-drives.

Haven't decided which scale I'm going to build the Dorothy Ann ( 1:48 or 1:32). I guess I'll determine to scale according to the size of Z-drive I get.

Here's a photo of the Dorothy Ann.

[toesup]

Others probably have more experience running Z drives, but I'm in the process of installing a pair or Graupner 2335's into a wooden hull..

These are a few things i have noticed about the drives...
The main body of the drives is plastic and seems rather weak in places.
Being a plastic 'casting', the amount of flashing and rough edges is rather surprising considering these came from Graupner.
The drives have to be disassembled to install in a boat, and the way they are put together makes it very awkward to get them apart. The bronze (?) bearings in the top of the drives are VERY tight on the shafts.
The input (from the motor) shaft is a large size and isnt easy to find a U/J to fit.
You will need a pair of metal geared servo's, with more movement than 'standard' to turn the drives. I have the servo's and plan on an electronic 'more movement' device.

Overall, they do the job... are they worth the money?... Personally, i dont think so.

[ropanach]

I only have one set of Z-drives, and can't say good or bad at this time, but in learning how to operat them was a trick untill I found this jpg hope it helps some one .

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

The two shottel drives, #2335 and #1761, are both decent drives.
Both need to be disassembled to install. Not a big issue really.

The 2335 steering drive has a full gear, and provides a larger potential steering
radius out of the box. The smaller 1761 only has a one third(120°) portion
of a gear available for steering. However, I found that creative use of larger
gears and remote placement of the steering servo can yield excellent results.
My 1761 drive and a 76 tooth 32pitch gear steers almost 240°

People using the 2335 have recently been creating a support, or blocking out
a collar around the drive input bearing. There seem to be strength issues at
this point. By building a support under and around that point, the bearing is
held rigid, and the original mounting point is under less stress.
The smaller 1761 has a lower profile mounting plate, and this does not seem to be an
issue.

The grease fitting on the 2335 can be a point of water entry. A small vinyl tube cap
from the hardware store can be placed over it to stop any seepage.
There is no grease fitting on the 1761, and the drive needs to be disassembled to grease.

I believe that running either drive "dry" can heat up the bearings, and cause the
lower drive housing to crack. I have had this happen to a smaller drive, and due
to it's size, it may be more susceptable to this.

Recommended motors.
The default drive ratio on both drives is about Three to One.

It seems that most people run the Speed 900(12volts) on the #2335 Drives.
The power and wake are impressive, and towing a kayaker or small row
boat has been no problem for this combination.
However some have been known to use the Speed 700.

A little motor experimentation, and a recommendation by Ron Burchett placed
the Graupner Speed 400 with the 2.33:1 gear drives, run on 12volts, on my
1761 drives. There is plenty of speed and power using this combination.
The final drive ratio here is about 5.33:1
I would build another small tug based on the scale of this smaller drive and
the recommended drive combo.

In the end, it is just a matter of how big a boat you want to build and run.
Scaling any boat to the drives that Graupner provides seems to run well.

.
.
Is there any other recommendations for something other than Graupner?
.
.

[keith S]

I have 1 in the Wedell Foss and it works well. Agree with Umi for upgrades and set ups. Graupner recomends NOT to run the drives out of water and that is a good idea. They can be a bit noisey. just have to remember when running them that the power is really instantanious for manuvering. ;) :D

[towboatjoe]

Umi, could you get me the cutout dimension where the 1761 goes through the hull and diameter of the prop? If it's close enough I might try 1:48 scale.

Oh yea, I would be interested in how high the unit is inside the hull also. I imagine clearance will be close with the way the transom is designed on Dorothy Ann.

[patmat2350]

Good Lord wudjalookit the size of that thing! Gonna build the barge too?

Pat M

[valo]

I only have one set of Z-drives, and can't say good or bad at this time, but in learning how to operat them was a trick untill I found this jpg hope it helps some one .
thanks ropanach, that clears one thing i was thinking about :)

[Tregurtha1013]

Good Lord wudjalookit the size of that thing! Gonna build the barge too?

Pat M

Yeah, she is a big tug. Her owners, The Interlake Steamship Co., trumpet that she is the largest Z-drive tug in North America... 7,200 BHP. She is equipped with a Hydraconn Connection system to mate with her barge, the Pathfinder. I hear that her Z-Drives have been less than perfect if you know what I mean.

[towboatjoe]

Good Lord wudjalookit the size of that thing! Gonna build the barge too?

Pat M

Sure thing Pat. The boat is 44' x 124'
The barge I'm building (like Pathfinder) will be a scale 70' x 480'
17.5" x 120" in 1:48 scale
It'll break down into two sections.
I believe pathfinder is 650'.

[CaptLee]

Am running a single 2335 in a Boom Boat using a Globe motor that turns at 7500 RPM and think itis the right motor for plenty of power. Figure the 900 turns a bit too high RPM for the unit. U-Joint is pretty simple to find, Hobby Lobby has a 5mm to 6mm for the Tito Neri that works perfect. It is listed in the Tito accessories and nowhere else in the catalog.

[Tregurtha1013]

Sure thing Pat. The boat is 44' x 124'
The barge I'm building (like Pathfinder) will be a scale 70' x 480'
17.5" x 120" in 1:48 scale
It'll break down into two sections.
I believe pathfinder is 650'.

Pathfinder is 606' x 70' x 36'

[towboatjoe]

I hear that her Z-Drives have been less than perfect if you know what I mean.

Yea, I hope it doesn't stand true for the model. If the cost gets too steep, I may put two shafts with backing rudders on her like towboats.
I made a 1:87 scale mockup with shafts and steerable korts. I never put motors in it to see how it would work.

[heavyhauler]

Hey TowboatJoe, Did You runout of river boats to model? Have You come up with a plan for the pin locking system? The one I made has worked pretty good for not having a clue (or much cash at the time) Look forward to seeing the build. Jay.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Towboat joe,

Good looking model. :cool:
Are the pins going to function? :)


Umi, could you get me the cutout dimension where the 1761 goes through the hull and diameter of the prop? If it's close enough I might try 1:48 scale.

Oh yea, I would be interested in how high the unit is inside the hull also. I imagine clearance will be close with the way the transom is designed on Dorothy Ann.

I think the smaller drives scale out to 1/48 pretty well.
It is why I built my SDM tug as 1/48 scale.

Here is a scan of the 1761, and an image I found of the 2335, and highlited the weak strut that people are supporting.

[green-boat]

Didn't Old River Bill start on an ATB that had a working pin mechanism.

[Tregurtha1013]

The ship I work on is currently in the process of being converted into an AT/B..... I've thought about how to make that work in a model and function like a real one. The pins would slide into the rack on each side of the barge notch. Unlike the real systems where the pin is solidly connected to the rack via teeth in the pin head and rack and the tug pitches around the axis of the pin I would place some sort of pad on the end of the pin that would rotate. The actual pin would follow the pitching of the tug, just the pad on the end would rotate. Instead of having to engage teeth the pads would press against the notch walls, effectively wedgeing the tug in the notch.

This will give you an idea of the various connection systems out there; http://www.oceantugbarge.com/PDF/systems.pdf

HeavyHauler's model AT/B works well, I've seen it in person. It is basicly a model version of a very early connection system known as Artubar.


Joe,

If you want an AT/B with river boat style props and rudders you should look at doing the Joyce L. VanEnkevort/Great Lakes Trader. She is twin screw, 8 rudders.

[towboatjoe]

Joe,

If you want an AT/B with river boat style props and rudders you should look at doing the Joyce L. VanEnkevort/Great Lakes Trader. She is twin screw, 8 rudders.


I got some video and several photos of the Joyce back in 2002 unloading.
She's a good looker too.

Thanks for the pics Umi. I can see why the strut needs reinforcing. I've been playing with several options for the pin system. Keeping things simple to avoid problems, I think I'll go with a system using a spring to keep the tension on the pins in the out position and use a servo on a switch (similar to airplane landing gear) to retract the pins when facing up to the barge.

Green-boat, I haven't talked to Bill for a while. I might call him tomorrow. I figured he would call me when Tom passed away. He never got around to finishing the tug. He took a Mister Darby hull and bilt an at/b from it. When I last looked at it, it was looking really good. His at/b looks like Nicole below.

Heavyhauler, I never finish with commission jobs for building towboats. River companies and captains write me often wanting a model of their boat. After 55 of them I wanted to do something different and was interested in Dorthy Ann for six years now.

[green-boat]

Green-boat, I haven't talked to Bill for a while. I might call him tomorrow. I figured he would call me when Tom passed away. He never got around to finishing the tug. He took a Mister Darby hull and bilt an at/b from it. When I last looked at it, it was looking really good.

.
He used to have a picture of it on his site but I went looking for it and didn't see it.

[towboatjoe]

I couldn't find it either. It was on the new projects page, but he's redone it with the vac-u-tow modification

[green-boat]

Maybe it's one of those projects that gets put on the back burner.

[Tregurtha1013]

I got some video and several photos of the Joyce back in 2002 unloading.
She's a good looker too.

Thanks for the pics Umi. I can see why the strut needs reinforcing. I've been playing with several options for the pin system. Keeping things simple to avoid problems, I think I'll go with a system using a spring to keep the tension on the pins in the out position and use a servo on a switch (similar to airplane landing gear) to retract the pins when facing up to the barge.

Green-boat, I haven't talked to Bill for a while. I might call him tomorrow. I figured he would call me when Tom passed away. He never got around to finishing the tug. He took a Mister Darby hull and bilt an at/b from it. When I last looked at it, it was looking really good. His at/b looks like Nicole below.

Heavyhauler, I never finish with commission jobs for building towboats. River companies and captains write me often wanting a model of their boat. After 55 of them I wanted to do something different and was interested in Dorthy Ann for six years now.

The Joyce is a good tug. The company I work for, KK Integrated Shipping, for partners with VanEnkevort Tug and Barge. Have heard nothing but good things about the Joyce.

BTW, thats actually the Tug G.L. Ostrander that pushes the Integrity. The M/V Paul H. Townsend can be seen to the left of the AT/B.

[DA Klein]

Sure thing Pat. The boat is 44' x 124'
The barge I'm building (like Pathfinder) will be a scale 70' x 480'
17.5" x 120" in 1:48 scale
It'll break down into two sections.
I believe pathfinder is 650'.
Joe
Do you know of the Joseph H Tompson? I oiled on it
when It was a C-4 19 nozzels could make a round trip
Duluth to Cleveland in a bit over four days. Then some
years later Upper Lakes Towing in Escanaba Mi ripped the
for an aft cabins off tore out the engineroom an made a
barge out of it! Sad as saw it pass the Duluth entry last
summer. The steel industry isnt what it use to be. US Steel
was the King with the most boats of any company.
Time changes everything. Darrell Klein

[capntroy]

BTW, thats actually the Tug G.L. Ostrander that pushes the Integrity

From that stern shot, I'd say G.L. Ostrander is a Mr. Darby sistership, she's definately got some of the same lines.

Do you have any background info on her?

[Tregurtha1013]

From that stern shot, I'd say G.L. Ostrander is a Mr. Darby sistership, she's definately got some of the same lines.

Do you have any background info on her?

The Tug G.L. Ostrander is 140'2" x 40'1" x 22'3", 198 GRT. She is powered by a pair of Cat 3608-DITA diesels producing a total of 6,008 HP. She was built in 1976 by Halter Marine in New Orleanes, LA. She was launched as the Andrew Martin. In 1990 she was renamed Robert L. Torres. She was again renamed in 1994 as Jacklyn M. In 2004 she was renamed G.L. Ostrander. She has been paired with the barge Integrity since it's construction in 1996.

[capntroy]

The Tug G.L. Ostrander is 140'2" x 40'1" x 22'3", 198 GRT. She is powered by a pair of Cat 3608-DITA diesels producing a total of 6,008 HP. She was built in 1976 by Halter Marine in New Orleanes, LA. She was launched as the Andrew Martin. In 1990 she was renamed Robert L. Torres. She was again renamed in 1994 as Jacklyn M. In 2004 she was renamed G.L. Ostrander. She has been paired with the barge Integrity since it's construction in 1996.

Yeah, same yard and time frame, looks like Jackson Marine didn't get them all...

[Tregurtha1013]

Cool..... Makes me interested in a Darby kit for the first time.