6S or 7S A123 with Trex500?

[masa]

I got my Trex500.
I hope that I use A123 for my Trex500.
Can I use 6S or 7S A123s with stock RCE-BL60G?

According to the instruction manual, this ESC counts the number of the cells automatically.
In that case, will not the low voltage cut be too early for A123s?

I am sorry by the question of the beginner's class.

masa

[Albig]

Yes,

If the LV cutoff is all automatic and not adjustable it will likely cutoff too early with a123s no matter what count of a123s you use. Since they read 3.6 volts resting and like 3.9 right off the charger and pull down very quickly after you start flying to 3 or less.

[JiriK]

masa, does that esc have selection between NiMh or Lipo cells?
If you can select cut to NiMH cells, it might work quite well..

At least in my SJM-500 esc works ok with 7S A123 pack.

[Fred Bronk]

It is made for 4-5 lipos in the 3000ma area. Fitting 6-7s 123s in here will be a chore.

FB

[rerazor]

It is made for 4-5 lipos in the 3000ma area. Fitting 6-7s 123s in here will be a chore.

FB

Check out the MSH 500 heil thread here. It will have the best power to weight ratio, with 7s a123 its still lighter than the Trex 500. :eek: :eek: :eek:

Oh and its all belt drive transmission.

[Albig]

I'm looking forward to this heli.

Hope it's more than vaporware soon :D

[LyNiX]

maybe there is a video of the T500 with a123 6s or 7s setup? :rolleyes:

[masa]

Thank you for a reply, everybody. :)
I understood that I cannot use A123 in ESC of Align.
I decided to use CC-45HV.

I tested some Lipo's for Trex500.And I tried 440mm mainblades,too.
Trex500 is very heavy.I think Trex500 needs longer blades for A123
setup.

Lipo Lepton Trex500
-------------------------------------
withput lipo 1,120 g 1,375
6S2100mA 1,440 g 1,695 g
6S2500mA 1,528 g 1,783 g
6S3200mA 1,640 g 1,895 g

I think that Trex500 seemed very firmly. I decide to extend a tail boom for use the main blade of the 470mm class.

Thank you.
masa

[LyNiX]

I'll use Jazz 55a with the 6s (7s?) A123 and maybe a scorpion motor... :)

[Albig]

Masa,

What parts are you going to use to stretch your 500?

Al

[masa]

Masa,

What parts are you going to use to stretch your 500?

Al

Hi
I already got O.D.16mm x 15mm x 1000mm CF pipe.
And,I ordered MXL 591t 3.7mm belt.
It will be stretch +51mm,compared to stock.

I am going to remodel my Trex to be able to carry 7-8S A123.

masa

[Albig]

Thanks Masa,

That's just what I wanted to know.

Sounds simple!

I think you're on the right track getting the disc load down and the A123s too :D

Please keep us informed of your results.

Al

[masa]

I received 591t belt which I ordered. However, my new CF boom seems to have too lacked strength. It occurred serious vibration.

It is necessary for me to get another new tail boom.

I think the strech of 50mm to be the length that is just good for 440mm blade. And it will be the length that is enough for 470mm blade.



masa

[jyzoom]

I received 591t belt which I ordered. However, my new CF boom seems to have too lacked strength. It occurred serious vibration.

It is necessary for me to get another new tail boom.

I think the strech of 50mm to be the length that is just good for 440mm blade. And it will be the length that is enough for 470mm blade.



masa

You don;t need to stretch to support 450mm blade.

[masa]

You don;t need to stretch to support 450mm blade.

I know. ;)
I use 440mm for T500 already.
And I think it is able to use 460's.

My personal problem is that the stock Trex500 looks bad. It is improved by streching a tail.

masa

[mikejk67]

I have used a stock T-rex motor and ESC in my 500 with 6s1p A123 cells for two flights for testing. Balance was right on with a mini tail servo. Stock 12 tooth pinion (now have 13, 14, 15, and 16 to try later). Just hovering and slow ff and gentle climbouts. Flew for 8 min and 21 seconds b4 the ESC went to low voltage cutoff. Put 2200mah back in the pack. Headspeed was a gentle 1850. Nice for sport flying. I'm not a 3d guy but my friend who can said it would handle loops and rolls and gentle flips based on his observation. I will now try a 14 tooth pinion for a higher headspeed and more power and hopefully close to 6 minutes.

[Kraeuterbutter]

5-6min is a good value

you should get real good power with that..
6s A123 are capable of 1500W Peak, should be enough for the T-REx500 ;)

important: heat the cells ! to about 40°
(charge them emeediatly after use, don´t let them cool down)
6s heated A123 are at load like 7s A123 at room-temp

[RussD]

Hi Kraeuterbutter

What do you use to pre-heat cells?

Thanks,

Russ.

[jyzoom]

Hi Kraeuterbutter,

I understand about heat them before use, and like to also know how you are doing that.

But I don't understand the part about charge them emeediatly after use, don´t let them cool down? What would you get compare to charging them hours after flight ?

Jonathan

[Bunyan]

masa,

I'm running MAH 463mm blades with stock boom and powering it with 6SA123 and it's got a lot of power for 5.5 min. I'm using stock motor with 15 pinion and a Jazz 80 ESC.

[jyzoom]

masa,

I'm running MAH 463mm blades with stock boom and powering it with 6SA123 and it's got a lot of power for 5.5 min. I'm using stock motor with 15 pinion and a Jazz 80 ESC.

What headspeed and govn % on youe thottle curve?

Jonathan

[Bunyan]

Hi Jonathan,

I'm running 2350rpms with 80% GOV on the Jazz 80 ESC with a 15 pinion.
With this setup I'm getting 5.5 minutes.
I was getting close to eight with the 13 pinion but the 500 was pretty docile.

[masa]

I tested 6S A123,500L motor,16T & 17T pinion.

A123 was a splendid performance for first two minutes. However, it was only two minutes!
The power durability of A123 is short to me.

Will my result be right?

masa

[Bunyan]

masa,

That makes sense. When I was running 6SA123, 13 pinion I was getting 8 minutes but the power wasn't there. When I switched to the 15 pinion, I'm now getting 5.5 minutes and a lot of power with the 463mm blades. I guess if you're using the 16 or 17 pinion your power would be insane but you'll cut your flight times in half.

If you're looking for higher head speed I would stick with the 15 pinion and run 7SA123 or 6SA123 and 15 pinion and larger blades (450mm or 460mm). That should get you back to around 5-6 minutes.

[tcfrum323]

Masa, what's your throttle curve and setup? I'm flying with a 16T pinion and I get 5:30 with decent power.

[masa]

When I tried 16T,it was worse than 17T I felt.
And after two minutes. I stopped flying because of power down.
A123 recharged only 1000mA.
I tried some THR curve.But I can not get good result from THR curve.

I think it depend on Flight style.Probably A123 is not worthy of the load that continued.
When I do only FFF and mild 3D,I can get 4:30 - 5:00 with 17T.Recharged 2150mA.

My flyight style(vid of Lepton EX:6S-lipo). (http://mamu-mukai.cocolog-nifty.com/mamu/files/lep1224.wmv)I can not do hard 3D.
When I push more than this video,A123 was usable only for around 2 minutes,in my test.

Will I make a mistake about A123?

Sorry for my bud English.
masa

[tcfrum323]

Well A123s for my 500 has been working out so far. I set my timer to 5 mins thinking that I'd be close to done with each battery. Went home to find that 5min flights only took out about 1700mah, so I had an extra 450mah to use which probably would've been another minute. It was really windy today so I couldn't get to do much, even my 600 had a hard time with the wind. Some punch outs, a few tic-tocs and some inverted hovering against the wind was quick the task but fun.

[masa]

Well A123s for my 500 has been working out so far. I set my timer to 5 mins thinking that I'd be close to done with each battery. Went home to find that 5min flights only took out about 1700mah, so I had an extra 450mah to use which probably would've been another minute. It was really windy today so I couldn't get to do much, even my 600 had a hard time with the wind. Some punch outs, a few tic-tocs and some inverted hovering against the wind was quick the task but fun.

When you continued only do Tic-Tac, how long time A123 keep power?
My question is such poins.
masa

[tcfrum323]

I'm not sure what "poins" means. I haven't tried continous tic-tocs, when I do I'll be sure to get the time.

[masa]

I'm not sure what "poins" means. I haven't tried continous tic-tocs, when I do I'll be sure to get the time.

I'm sorry.I missed.

I found this thread.(7SA123/MSH)
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=809315
Great video.But,7S A123 is too heavy for Trex500.

I decide to return to LIPO once again.

Thanks

masa

[tcfrum323]

You definately can't beat good lipos when it comes to performance. It's pretty much a plug and play setup with lipos for the 500. With A123s you gotta setup and gear correctly to find a good setup. Once done however you're pretty much set. One thing I've noticed that I forgot was the usable mah of lipos over A123s (with the exception of ATs) is about 300-400mah less than the 2300mah A123 cells. I've been an A123 guy for a while now and with the 500 I can now crank my chargers up and charge at 3C-4C. Love the 10-15min charge times. Have fun flyin.

John

[masa]

Thanks for a lot of advice.
I have to reset my knowledge and expectation about A123.

I tested A123 again.I took video.
Trex500,kora15-12,24T pinion,6SA123 (http://mamu-mukai.cocolog-nifty.com/mamu/files/T500_6SA123_0001.wmv)

Maybe Kora15-12/24T pinion is same ratio as 500L/14T pinion.
I must test 26T pinion.

masa

[masa]

Kora15&24Tpinion shows not great,but not bad.
The problem felt that I wanted more cyclic and bit more headspeed.

I tried 26T this morning. Furthermore, I changed a stabilizer.
In addition, I raised temperature of A123 as much as possible by car heater.

I got a fine result.
It continued 5minutes fine flight. The quantity of recharge was 2,150mA.

I need experience about more A123. I may manage A123 if I do so it.

thanks.
masa

[tcfrum323]

The thing I figured out about getting the most out of A123s was using a governor and gearing. Best I've used so far is the aerospire eMultigov. With a previous setup on my 600e I was able to pull about 130amps out of a 12s pack putting out a total of 3400watts of power.

[jyzoom]

Kora15&24Tpinion shows not great,but not bad.
The problem felt that I wanted more cyclic and bit more headspeed.

I tried 26T this morning. Furthermore, I changed a stabilizer.
In addition, I raised temperature of A123 as much as possible by car heater.

I got a fine result.
It continued 5minutes fine flight. The quantity of recharge was 2,150mA.

I need experience about more A123. I may manage A123 if I do so it.

thanks.
masa

masa,

WHich vdneor paddle is that ? size of the paddle?

Jonathan

[masa]

The thing I figured out about getting the most out of A123s was using a governor and gearing. Best I've used so far is the aerospire eMultigov. With a previous setup on my 600e I was able to pull about 130amps out of a 12s pack putting out a total of 3400watts of power.

I agree that it is better to use gov with A123.
But I don't like feeling of GOV in CC45HV.

When i do Pre heating,best gearing,Using Offset MIX to Thr-curve,....
It seems not bad.

I have trex600(12S-LIPO,Z50-600),too.
I will try 12S A123 for Trex.

masa

[masa]

masa,

WHich vdneor paddle is that ? size of the paddle?

Jonathan

It is Align OP paddle for Trex600.
Using 600class paddles is popular method in EP-8's. ;)


It increased enough Cyclic effect,but still slow in response.
I will try shorten flyber.

masa

[masa]

Simple method.
Move a battery tray and can carry 6SA123.
However, the center of gravity is not right.

[masa]

Furthermore, the canopy moved, too.
I was able to get a right center of gravity.

[masa]

It is cold in this morning!,-23 degC ＝ -9.4 degF!


Video:
Trex500,kora15-12,6SA123,26T pinion,1804g (http://mamu-mukai.cocolog-nifty.com/mamu/files/kora26T.wmv)

THR curve:
The first 2 minutes:100-95-100
The latter :100-100-100
Recharged 1984mA.

masa

[tcfrum323]

What's the whinning noise I hear in the video? Besides that the power looks decent.

[masa]

What's the whinning noise I hear in the video? Besides that the power looks decent.

It will be a problem at encoding. Actually it was very quiet during flight.
Yes,I think it was decent power for 6SA123.However, this power does not seem to be enough in heavy Trex500.

Trex500 with 6SA123 shows very heavy weight in the helicopter of 500 motor classes.I decided to give up that I used A123 for Trex500.

A123 will good performer in a helicopter which has low diskload,such as Lepton.

masa

[jyzoom]

It will be a problem at encoding. Actually it was very quiet during flight.
Yes,I think it was decent power for 6SA123.However, this power does not seem to be enough in heavy Trex500.

Trex500 with 6SA123 shows very heavy weight in the helicopter of 500 motor classes.I decided to give up that I used A123 for Trex500.

A123 will good performer in a helicopter which has low diskload,such as Lepton.

masa

masa,

With your testing and Bunyan testing on longer blade. I am trying to get a lower dic loading running a123 with Kora 15-12 and 463mm blade. Just create a thread to get that going.

Jonathan

[Bunyan]

masa,

I had my frame like yours as well (removed the battery tray and fliped the pyramid pack) I now cut down the frame a bit as others have done and placed the tray back on there and there's plenty of room now for batts. I even had room for a 6S 4000 mAh lipo under the hood.

Good vid by the way. It's hard to try and keep the heli in the picture when you don't have a camera man around! ;)
I think you should try some longer blades with your power setup. You may be surprised how it flies. I felt that the T-500 felt too heavy in the air with the 425's and 6SA123. With the longer blades it feels like a different machine.

Remember, the A123's are just an alternative to lipos. You still can't beat the performace of a good lipo.

[masa]

Bunyan,
Jonathan,

Thanks for advice.
When I enjoy it with a friend, there is no time to take video. The reason is because I am crazy about a group and a chat. :D Because there is no help for it, I get up early.

My last aim is strech boom and to attach 460-500mm rotor to Trex500.I am the newbie that began study of A123.When I use a long rotor, I think that I will test it in LIPO experienced in. There is not that I try 7-8SA123 late afterwards.

I have already owned two 6S4000LIPOs and two 6S3200LIPOs for 12S-LIPO'S Trex600. They are the weight that is near to 7SA123. I will study most from there. ;)

Simply,6SA123 will work great with my Lepton.I think that even 5SA123 is enough.

It is pleasure of my future both.
I enjoy Trex500/440mm/6Slipo for the time being.It is very just good.

masa

[mikejk67]

masa,

I think you should try some longer blades with your power setup. You may be surprised how it flies. I felt that the T-500 felt too heavy in the air with the 425's and 6SA123. With the longer blades it feels like a different machine.

Remember, the A123's are just an alternative to lipos. You still can't beat the performace of a good lipo.

What size and brand of blades are you running? I'm using a 6s1p pack of A123's on the stock blades, motor, and esc. and a 14 tooth pinion. Flight performance for a beginner like me is fine and duration is OK too. But if I want to do more than fff, circuits, and a loop or two I might want to try longer blades. I love A123's and use them (12s1p) in my Raptor 50 conversion. Also did you have to lengthen the boom?
Mike

[Bunyan]

Hi Mike,

I'm using stock everything except the ESC (Jazz 80). The blades are tappered MAH 463mm on the stock boom. I am also using the 15 pinion. With the 13 it was pretty docile.
I noticed a big difference from the 425mm to the 463mm blades. If you're just looking for loops rolls and light acrobatics you should be fine with 2100rpms using the 463mm blades. My guess is you'd get about 6.5 minutes with that setup.

[thegamer]

Bunyan... with your setup is possible start practicing light 3D moves? What minimum RPM needs with 6S A123 to do that?

I have been thinking about A123 cells: Their problem is they don't hold voltage well under hard load (required to do hard 3D moves), so if you flies making 3D figures but you don't do one and another and another fast, the heli could do one manouver (RPM down), hovering (RPM up), another manouver (RPM down), hover... For example, tic tocs are hard with RPM, but funnels not.

I know lipo has the best ratio weight/performance, but they are expensive and fragile, and A123 cells are not so bad. What do you think?

[Bunyan]

thegamer,

I absolutely believe you can do 3D with 6SA123 cells. They don't bog as bad as a lot of people claim. You can fly tic tocs (for example) no problem if you're spinning 2400-2500rpms (on 463mm blades).
I'd like to see a veteran 3D pilot using a 6SA123 pack.

Remember you can't compare 6SA123 to 6S lipo. A 6SA123 heated up is more like a 5S lipo pack. Geared correctly you can do a lot with them.

Give em a shot and let us know what you think.

[thegamer]

Bunyan, I don't have a T500 (maybe one day... :D). I only have a Mini Titan powered with 3S A123, and they are like 2,5S lipo, so performance drop is noticeable and I can do a few 3D manouvers. However, I'm a fan of A123 cells and I'm very interested in your researches because the T500 could be my next heli.

- I love logo 500 with 10S A123, but spare parts are expensive and I don't want to fly with fear of break something and spend a lot of money to repair it.
- Trex 600 is sooo big, it needs 12S A123 cells and have short flight times because the weight.
- Lepton is expensive like logo
- HDX 500 doesn't have enough space to use A123 cells.

So for me the best option A123 powered heli to start practicing 3D manouvers at the moment is t-rex 500 with 6S A123 and your 463mm blades. The MSH 500 could be another option, it can use 7s A123 and seems very good. It will be on the market when I buy a new heli because I still have to save a lot of money.

New questions:
What are your flight times with 2400-2500 rpms on 463 mm blades? If I remember good, with 2250 rpms you flies 5 minutes and 30 seconds.
Where did you bought your 463 mm blades?
Is necessary to heat A123 cells to have a good performance? In my Mini Titan I always use them at room temperature (18-20ºC) and they don't perform bad.
If you have eagle logs with your T-rex 500 setups, please send me them. I'm making one setup like yours for Realflight Simulator, and I need real data to do my best.

Thanks in advance!

[Bunyan]

Hi,

The logo is a money machine! The 500 isn't that much smaller than the T-600 though. I thried my buddies Logo 500 with an 8SA123 pack and then a 6S EVO pack and they felt pretty much the same.

I haven't tried a 450 size machine with 3S A123 but I bet if you heat up the cells to 40 deg. you'd have better performance than with room temps.
Even the 6SA123 at room temp and heated up are worlds appart.

I haven't flown at 2500 rpms in a while as I don't need it for my flying style.
Tic tocs and acrobatics are fine with 2300rpms.

I would probably switch to a 16 pinion if I was going to go with 2500rpms and 463mm blades. I think that would only give you around 4min flying time though. Just guessing on that one though. When I switched from 13 to 15 pinion I went from 8.5 minutes to 5.5 minutes.

I don't have an eagle logger (only a wattsup meter). I need to change my pugs on my wattsup meter to use it on my T-500. I'll see if I can't get you some data.
I got the MAH blades from heliworkz.

[jyzoom]

thegamer,

Looks like we are on the same path to learning 3D.
To your question on A123 doing 3D. I can tell you an very good 3D flyer flown my Logo 600 3D with 12S A123 are very impress with the performance with solid 6mins flight. The weight is as good as 10S Lipo with 1-2 mins penalty. Remember when you go lipo, you can;t use more then 75% of the capacity to keep the lipo alive.

I have to go Trex 500 ( or MSH in future ) as Bunyan said, logo is a money machine to learn 3D.

You seen my thread, I am confident about 463mm blade is what I need for my setup. I am using 450mm non-sym Funkey blade ( U$42 ) and immediately notice the performance jump even at lower headspeed.

Jonathan

[thegamer]

I tried to enter at www.heliworkz.com but nothing appears... :( is the website www.ronlund.com?

I'm agree with both of you, a Logo machine is only for do 3D when you have learnt 3D manouvers, not to practice 3D with it. However, they are beatiful machines, it's difficult see them and not claim: I want one!!

Bunyan, I have to test my Mini Titan heating the cells. However, heating the cells shouldn't be good for their cycle life, should they? I will do a T-rex 500 version with 2300 rpm maintained to have an idea how it performs, I would like to see your opinion (real vs. sim).

Jyzoom, Please when you receive your blades tell us if your sensations about 463 mm blades are as good as Bunyan says :)

[Kraeuterbutter]

A123 and 3D ?
7s1p in an AcrobatSE flown by Tom whome i borrowed my 7s1p Fepo4-batteries:
blades: 470mm
Peak-Watts: 1700Watt
(cells were warm from charger)
(heliweight including batts: ~1700g)

he already had peaks of 1800watt with that...
at more peaks the jazz80 shuts down

i think that should work great in an T-Rex500 as well
here the eagle-Tree-datas:

http://www.kraeuterbutter.at/Bilder2/AcrobatSE/Messwerte/A123%207s1p%20im%20AcrobatSE%20Messung%20Nr.%203.j pg
http://www.kraeuterbutter.at/Bilder2/AcrobatSE/Messwerte/A123%207s1p%20im%20AcrobatSE%20Messung%20Nr.%203%2 0Teil%202.jpg

[Bunyan]

I tried to enter at www.heliworkz.com (http://www.heliworkz.com/) but nothing appears... :(

Sorry, I meant heliproz.com

[thegamer]

A123 and 3D ?
7s1p in an AcrobatSE flown by Tom whome i borrowed my 7s1p Fepo4-batteries:
blades: 470mm
Peak-Watts: 1700Watt
(cells were warm from charger)
(heliweight including batts: ~1700g)

he already had peaks of 1800watt with that...
at more peaks the jazz80 shuts down

i think that should work great in an T-Rex500 as well
here the eagle-Tree-datas:

http://www.kraeuterbutter.at/Bilder2/AcrobatSE/Messwerte/A123%207s1p%20im%20AcrobatSE%20Messung%20Nr.%203.j pg
http://www.kraeuterbutter.at/Bilder2/AcrobatSE/Messwerte/A123%207s1p%20im%20AcrobatSE%20Messung%20Nr.%203%2 0Teil%202.jpg

What shop sells the AcrobatSE? I don't know nothing about this heli...

[Bunyan]

It's a great little heli made in Germany. http://www.eheli-tuning.de/Pricy little thing but you get what you pay for. The designer is also coming out with a high tech fly-bar-less 3 axis gyro.
Interesting times...

[okayplayer]

Dear all,

I'm receiving my A123 tomorrow morning. I got a stock Trex 500 with 425 blades.

I'm wondering based on your experience what would be the best setup ?

- 6S A123 with 460mm blades?
- 7S A123 with 460mm blades?

... any other propositions?

Cédric