Suppliers

[pops52]

Everyone likes to pass on a positive experience we have had with our suppliers. I especially like to read this kind of thing and like to patronize those that give something back to our venue.

But what about those that do not provide a pleasant transaction? Does this forum support factual non-flammatory experiences we have had with suppliers? I, for one, would appreciate knowing when there has been a bad experience with a supplier. I then, can decide for myself if it might have been a, one off, bad day or might it be habitual.

Many of us pass on bad experiences offline with each other, but if we keep it factual, wouldn't we be performing a better service to us all by being more open about these types of experiences too?

[420TEE]

Pops , I agree it would be a useful list. Unfortunately it's why most newspapers don't publish letters to the editor complaining about local stores, etc. There is no way to know if it's a legitimate complaint or a competitor trying to knock down his competition.

[patmat2350]

It's also likely to give an unbalanced view... people are quick to complain when wronged, but all the positive experiences are just "expected" and usually go unreported.
Always best to work out issues with the supplier...

[Brooks]

I have no problem with vendor reports, good or bad. I think we all are smart enough to realize that off days happen, so one bad report would not sink a vendor. But if the one report is followed by agreement from several other modelers, then the forum and it's participants (and the vendor industry) have been given a valuable clue. After all, if bad vendors are not exposed, good vendors lose the business that should rightfully have gone to them.

I am thinking of my loss of $300 to a submarine vendor 10 years ago - I later learned that many sub modelers had had trouble with this guy. Unfortunately, my bad experience (including repeated efforts to work out a solution with the vendor) turned me off to sub modeling, and the remaining good vendors never got my business. Sad for me, bad for the good sub vendors, sigh.

[pops52]

I believe we would all take here say with a grain of salt, but when it repeats and repeats, we tend to perk our ears up.

I was thinking more of a concrete method of conveying our negative experiences. I believe they should be backed of with facts. Here is an example.

Gentlemen, I was excited to receive my new fittings. Let me share with you an example of what I paid for and received.

Please take the photo for only what it represents. After looking at the photo, please be your own judge if you would spend over a hundred dollars on these fittings waiting for months to receive them. These fittings were supplied from "Brand X."

If I were reading this thread I would have to decide if this sample is acceptable or not. I sure feel someone would be doing me a favor by sharing this kind of factual information with me. The message here is to give you something concrete, then let you decide for yourself if this supplier should be patronized.

[patmat2350]

Does Brand X start with an "H"?

[420TEE]

I recognize those pieces. When I complained about them on this forum people jumped to their defense. Junk is junk.

[pops52]

Pat, Yes!

I just don't know how one can even offer this and worse yet others defend defend it.

[der kapitan]

It looks like once upon a time it was a twin 40mm gun mounting, probably in 1/72 or smaller scale---. :rolleyes:

I think the supplier needs to re-tool those molds, or discontinue selling this item. ;)

I build in 1/32 scale, and last fall ordered a number of gun kits from this supplier, and received fairly decent items. :)

In fact, comparing one of the 40mm singles to one I have from about 30 years ago, I noted just a bit more flash. :)

Take the good with the bad, I guess---. :p

[smart_racer]

Who is vendor "H"

[CG Bob]

Vendor "H" (http://www.hrprod.com/) items are fairly inexpensive when compared to fittings made by Scale Shipyard, Sirmar, Haynes, et al. The Vendor "H" items require a little more cleanup work than similar items offered by other suppliers. Here are some price comparisons from when I built the Dumas USS WHITEHALL.
Single 20 MM gun:
Vendor H - $1.40 cast white metal
Scale Shipyard - $8.95 cast brass
Sirmar - $6.00
Haynes - $15.00

Twin 40 MM gun
H - $2.75
Sirmar - $21.00
Haynes - $25.00

Watertight door
H - $0.40
SSY - $4.80 for a 12 pack
Sirmar - $4.50 for 5
Haynes - $9.00

[der kapitan]

Bob, you probably let the cat out of the bag, but, considering the volume of inquiries, and the cost bias, I'm sure the guys can do their math, and scroll back to your article on the Dumas Whitehall to find out who is the supplier---. :)

As I said, I have had no problems with them, but I can see where the buyers of the smaller scale stuff would. I hope the manufacturer is reading this, and will either renew the molds or discontinue the items if he is unable to. ;)

[pops52]

My purchases were for 1:48 fittings.

Lesson learned for me:

*The first time the dog bites you its the dogs fault.*

[fatboy999]

Vendor "H" (http://www.hrprod.com/) items are fairly inexpensive when compared to fittings made by Scale Shipyard, Sirmar, Haynes, et al. The Vendor "H" items require a little more cleanup work than similar items offered by other suppliers. Here are some price comparisons from when I built the Dumas USS WHITEHALL.
Single 20 MM gun:
Vendor H - $1.40 cast white metal
Scale Shipyard - $8.95 cast brass
Sirmar - $6.00
Haynes - $15.00

Twin 40 MM gun
H - $2.75
Sirmar - $21.00
Haynes - $25.00

Watertight door
H - $0.40
SSY - $4.80 for a 12 pack
Sirmar - $4.50 for 5
Haynes - $9.00

Bob, when I click on your link for VENDOR H the system can't find the website. Wonder if VENDOR H has pulled his website off the net.

[Stu :)]

Whoa!!! Hold your horses boys and girls... Now I have no personal interest in 'H' but...
Yes the molds are well used, but the castings in the above photo also also scream 'cold mold'. That means the mold used was not warmed up before use, so as the lead-alloy passes through the inside it cools and hardens too soon which causes an irregular finish to surface and prevents the alloy to travel further into the mold; so finer detail is lost. Normal practice is to spin the mold once or twice before attempting to get any castings from it.
I only know this as I used to work for the company that became 'Flames of War' and spent many a day casting tank tracks and infantry.

Also one could say you're getting what you paid for. In terms of wargames figures there is a world of difference between a $5 figure and a $1.70 figure. The $5 figure would be from a very fine master, the mold rubber would be the soft silicon type allowing more details and less work; but would require replacing the mold more often, which in turn lead to higher quality, but would push up the price, also this mold permits using a better alloy; say one with a higher zinc and/or silver content and this to would push up the price. The $1.70 figure on the other hand may have started life as a very nice master but would be lost in a harder rubber mold and because it's a hard rubber mold the manufacturer most likely has never replaced the mold, so you'll get less detail both from hardness and the wear-in-tear over the history of the mold, which in turn leads to more 'flash' and preparation needed. Also the figure may be made from a higher lead content alloy which would also be further factor to less detail and more work needed.

Stu :)

[pops52]

Stu,

All of that is well and good. But the inferior quality continues with the other dozen or so fittings I received. There were multiple opportunities to observe the quality, or lack thereof.

I donno, I'd be too embarrassed to ship this to a customer and put their money in my pocket. We are a fairly small pimple on the posterior of the modeling world. The quality in the photo deserves to travel amongst us. If this sample is of an acceptable quality to some, GREAT! Personally, I don't think it is and I want to inform others by showing what is being marketed by this company.

[420TEE]

Stu, The reason they make and sell poor quality stuff is not my concern. If they don't know how to properly mold things after years of doing it, get out of the business. In todays computerized world I'm sure new, clean, accurate molds can be had at reasonable cost. Upgrading equipment is part of doing, and staying in, business. Some of the same package of parts I received were discarded because I couldn't tell what they were supposed to be. They looked like blobs of slag. Bottom line, I for one will not purchase anything from "H" again.

[toesup]

Vendor H items are fairly inexpensive when compared to fittings made by Scale Shipyard, Sirmar, Haynes, et al.

Single 20 MM gun:
Vendor H - $1.40 cast white metal
Scale Shipyard - $8.95 cast brass
Sirmar - $6.00
Haynes - $15.00

Twin 40 MM gun
H - $2.75
Sirmar - $21.00
Haynes - $25.00

Watertight door
H - $0.40
SSY - $4.80 for a 12 pack
Sirmar - $4.50 for 5
Haynes - $9.00

Are the items from the other suppliers of a better quality than the 'cheapo' versions?...

[der kapitan]

Bob, when I click on your link for VENDOR H the system can't find the website. Wonder if VENDOR H has pulled his website off the net.
Hmmm---. I did a web search, and came up blank, the sams as with Bob's link---. ;)

I wonder if---. :rolleyes:

[smart_racer]

is it worth sending the product? or a waste of time and more money

[der kapitan]

Hmmm---. I did a web search, and came up blank, the sams as with Bob's link---. ;)
I wonder if---. :rolleyes:
This afternoon, I tried to connect with vendor H's website, and got through. ;)

Sent an e-mail inquiry to the owner to find out if they are still in operation, undergoing upgrades, etc. :confused:

[frankg]

:) GUYS- I think POPS has a real bitch and I am glad he has brought it to everyone’s attention . I have hear complaints about wood kits by a major American manufacture which when researched were found to be dead on. I have also heard many members come to bat for the manufacturer stating that their customer service was top rate and they respond quickly. Great, but when customer service is being called upon with every kit, or the same product has the same problem long after it has been in production, then it is time to call a spade a spade. As for alerting the members of the forum of a manufacturer that is delinquent in his or her product or quality there of, I say yes, it has to be done to help weed out the bad apples in this ever shrinking hobby of model building. Let’s face it we are in the minority, even in the field of R/C model boating, in that we really do build our models. It is only fair that we expect the manufactures of products that we use to have the same frame of mind for quality as we are striving for with our models. DER KAPITAN knows that I speak my mind, and if I think some one is doing us wrong, I will at the very least let them know, to see if they are willing to wright the wrong, or scoff it off and wait for the next guy. We are a small family , we band of modeling brothers, the word travels fast thru this forum and the internet. Shysters beware!!! :)

[smart_racer]

Vendor "H"....HR Products link works for me

[CG Bob]

Are the items from the other suppliers of a better quality than the 'cheapo' versions?...
As they say: money talks, bs walks. Generally the more expensive fittings are a better quality than the cheaper ones. Here are a some pictures of a 1:48 scale 3"/50 deck gun. The H-R Products gun is cast metal and weighs 1.4 ounces. The Sirmar gun is a resin casting and weighs .3 ounces. The weight doesn't matter much on a 1:48 scale model of a USCG 210' WMEC. On the USS WHITEHALL (and other 1:96 scale small combatants likes DE's), all of the heavy metal up high needs corresponding lead near the keel. I think the Sirmar resin base and parts are way better than the H-R Products counterparts. The H-R gun barrel looks a little better to me; so I may do a kit bash on the gun.

[keith S]

Weather you like the product for the price or not will dictate what you spend your $$ on. Some manufacturers have more $$ and can afford to upgrade their equipment to produce better product. Some have made molds for parts that they feel is fine for the price they are providing since the molds are old , but still usable and parts may require a little work. Then there are those that don't care. These folks usally do not last long. I beleive the company "H" is in the middle catagory. They have provided the same parts for many years and still doing so with people still buying them for the same reason many hobbiest do--price is right. Now I am not saying they shouldn't upgrade the equipment, that would be a good thing. It just may be they are stretching things out for what little market they have before they say " done with this!". When they do, there will be one less company producing parts and fewer choices. :( We must also remember that a lot of the companies producing this stuff are doing so out of their "garages" and upgrading to new masters and molds may not be a finacial option. Tooling is exspensive now days. I looked into having a plug/mold done by a local company that does 3 axis milling. The cost was going to be about $1500.00 :eek: . That was just the tooling. Not economical for a hobbiest.
Now some companies are using new technologies and methods to produce quality parts. But you will notice the price for those items is not as cheap as most hobbiest would like to spend some times.
So it all comes back to the hobbiest and how much $$ you spend on the parts ordered that depicts what you get. Order a Yugo don't exspect to get a Rolls Royce. ;)

[der kapitan]

Some manufacturers have more $$ and can afford to upgrade their equipment to produce better product. Some have made molds for parts that they feel is fine for the price they are providing since the molds are old , but still usable and parts may require a little work. . It just may be they are stretching things out for what little market they have before they say " done with this!". When they do, there will be one less company producing parts and fewer choices.So it all comes back to the hobbiest and how much $$ you spend on the parts ordered that depicts what you get. Order a Yugo don't exspect to get a Rolls Royce. ;)

I think Keith summed it up rather realistically, in that many of these vendors are little operations, catering to a small market. ;)

My own business is virtually a one-man show, operating out of a very small workshop, no mahogany paneling, or brass door handles here---. :)

I try to keep the quality up on my stuff, and hope that customers keep coming back. When that stops happening, the doors will close---. :p

[smart_racer]

I would have to agree with der kaptian... also being a small, at home, one man show business. If I would not purchase my product because of the quality, I certaintly would not ship it to a customer...quality and customer service is big in a small business.

[der kapitan]

I would have to agree with der kaptian... also being a small, at home, one man show business. If I would not purchase my product because of the quality, I certaintly would not ship it to a customer...quality and customer service is big in a small business.

Actually, it's EVERYTHING in a small business. Smart Racer. ;)

With a small operating budget, you simply MUST have repeat customers that spread the word, and that doesn't happen if you sell pieces of CRAP---. :D

[bigford]

you get what you pay for!!! i wanted a corvette the wife
bought a toyota celica. according to her it's a sports car :rolleyes:

if you know that there is a better part out there and you still
buy the cheapie dont think your getting the vette.

but that crap white metal should not have been sold i guess
the small mom&pop shop dont need qc checks