Laser Arts Majestic

[WEB01]

Happy New Years gentlemen!

Christmas is over and the New Years resolutions have been made. The building table has been cleared of clutter and my Majestic kit is taking it's place on the building board.

While I ponder exactly how I am going to attack this build I thought of how nice it would be to draw on the advice/opinions of any and all current or past Majestic owners. I have read through the Drela mods and given them a lot of thought. There has been a lot of comment regarding the improvement that these mods can provide... but there has not been much comment made on how well this particular design flies without the mods or with only a partial set of the mods.

I have come to the conclusion that penetration may not be as important in my area as we tend not to range too far and the winds are not that strong here for the most part. We fly almost exclusively off of Hosemonster high starts here (the club bought four matched set-ups for contests) although there is talk of a winch maybe showing up next summer.

I would love to hear from all present and past owners regarding their opinions with regards to what mods are really necessary and/or desireable for my situation. Float is king here along with controlability.

Any thoughts before I begin? Let's hear them. :confused:

[spinolio]

I have a Majestic I build four years ago. In fact the first time I flew it was on New Years day 2004 and every NYD since and flew it again today. It's a very nice flying machine. The launch is stable and can handle a heavy winch setup. My avatar photo shows me launching it for the first time.

The only mod I added was carbon and kevlar to the spar. It came out a little tail heavy and I wish I would have lightened it up a little. I am planning on building a new set of v's using lighter materials.

Good luck on the build, I'm sure you will be happy with it.

Dennis Hoyle
WMSS
AMA# SNUT

[WEB01]

Thanks for the reply Dennis,

I think that I will extend the V's as per Dr. Drela's suggestions and I guess I could save some weight by using built-up ruddervaters. Any other suggestions for saving weight?

What size of carbon did you use in your wing and where did you put it?

[John Walter]

Be sure to wrap the spars and joiner boxes with Kevlar tow. Little Flyer sells it. See:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=587629

[spinolio]

It was a while back but I think it was .007 carbon on the top and bottom of the spar and wrapped with kevlar thread. Kevlar tow would work better that the thread because it would lay flat. I'm building a Sovereign now and that's what I'm going to use.

I bought the Tow from Jeff at:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=587629

I had thought about using small carbon tubes for the V's main spars and carbon front and rear with the construction similar to an AVA to keep the weight down.

[WEB01]

Did you build your Majestic with the stock removeable tails. I know some people have used carbon rods to permanently attach the tail to the boom. How do find the boom... have you ever experienced any problem with the stock fiberglass boom flexing?

You are going to love the Sovereign. That was my first build (last year). I used it in a few competitions at the tail end of our flying season and found it to be very competitive. I posted a few photos of it here:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=745026

[williamson]

The standard Majestic flies well, but has a few noticeable negative characteristics. I have seen at least one wing fold in a modest winch launch. The plane comes out fairly heavy as compared to other built-up planes of this size. The plane could use more rudder authority and has a tendency to Dutch roll because of the small effective vertical area of the tail feathers. Tips stalls are a problem.

To overcome these negatives, I built a Majestic incorporating almost all of Mark Drela’s suggestions.

To strengthen the wing, I built the plane much like a Bubble Dancer. See:
http://charlesriverrc.org/articles/bubbledancer/markdrela-bubbledancer-3m.htm
Tapered carbon fiber (from CST) is used on the top and bottom of the spar. On the top, the carbon fiber is 0.060-in. thick at the center and tapers toward the tips. On the bottom, the carbon fiber is 0.030-in. thick at the center. I used 5-lb. end-grain balsa in the spars. In the center bays, I wrapped the spar with fiberglass cut on the bias in order to counteract shear stresses. The spar was wrapped with Kevlar tow.

One trick that simplified wing construction was to epoxy the tapered carbon fiber to pieces of hard balsa. The laminated strips were then placed carbon-fiber down with the supplied hardwood spar caps nestled along each side. I then sanded the hard balsa until the thickness matched the hardwood spar caps. This yielded two advantages. First, the laminated strips fitted precisely into the notches in the supplied ribs. Second, I could then leisurely assemble the wing using Tite Bond.

I flattened the bottom rear of the wing ribs as suggested. This narrowed the chord by about a half inch. Mark’s suggested modifications of the front of the airfoil seemed too complicated to implement so I did not change that. Instead of the heavy balsa block at the wing tips, I built the tips like the Bubble Dancer.

In a test, I suspended the Majestic between two chairs with the chair backs positioned near the outer polyhedral breaks. A 100-lb. weight was suspended from the tow hook and the wing did not yield.

To save weight, I used a tapered carbon fiber boom in place of the supplied fiberglass boom. The new boom is much stiffer and about 2/3 the weight of the fiberglass. Also the weight is more toward the front as desired. 0.030-in. piano wire served as push rods. These ran through Teflon tubes bonded to the top of the boom.

I did not use any of the supplied parts for the tail feathers. Instead I built larger tail feathers (as per Mark’s suggestion) out of 5-lb. balsa. The V-tails parts were permanently mounted onto offset carbon-fiber rods that extended through the boom. The rods and V-tails were at 90-deg. instead of the flatter V-tail of the standard design. The control horns were on the top of the ruddervators. I used a Drela airfoil for the tail feathers.

My Majestic incorporated the polyhedral angles suggested by Mark. Also, there is washout in the mid panel. With these modifications, my plane could circle tightly like a hand-launch glider in low-level lift without tip stalling.

Much of this information is in the thread entitled “Laser Arts Majestic Build”.

To my delight , my first flight was 45 minutes!

Please contact me if you would like more details. I also have photos of the uncovered plane that might help.

[spinolio]

Did you build your Majestic with the stock removeable tails. I know some people have used carbon rods to permanently attach the tail to the boom. How do find the boom... have you ever experienced any problem with the stock fiberglass boom flexing?

You are going to love the Sovereign. That was my first build (last year). I used it in a few competitions at the tail end of our flying season and found it to be very competitive. I posted a few photos of it here:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=745026

It does have the removable stabs, but if had to do it over again, I probably wouldn't. I don't have a problem hauling it with the V's attached and never remove them.

I did use the stock boom and never had a problem. With the strong spar I can do a very hard launch with a strong winch. A taper spar could save you some more weight.

I do think some of the mods could make it fly better, however, I have done well at competitions without the mods.

I took a look at your Sovereign, what a beauty, I plan on adding spoilers too.

[prodjx]

O.K. I'm just going to tell you about my Majestic. Mine was given to me by a friend started but not finished, he had added some carbon to the spar's and wrapped them as well, I finished it off and was very scared to fly it because of the V-tail, and guess what the launch was a no brainer. Well I flew it for a while until I forgot to flip the switch from cruciform tail to V-tail, I bashed up the wing pretty good and bent the wing rod. I have this old issue of Quiet Flight Int'l magazine that showed how to make your own c/f spar and I made one and it worked great, You gotta know the fuse is damn near bullet proof, in another pilot error I tapped the winch one time too many and the wing folded just past the wing tube at 350' agl and into the hard packed Arizona dirt, well about 10min's of time and some c.a. the fuse was fixed, but I'm going to order a new wing kit.
Oh, when the Majestic first came out a friend got one and asked me if I could fab a c/f canopy and the rest is history it's far stronger and better looking too, I've been known to make them for other Majestic flyer's. It was only scratched in the afore mentioned impact. I think the canopy frame glue's to it better. Dave.

[WEB01]

OK then,

So far the consensus appears to be:

Lighten the tailgroup as much as possible while enlarging the control surfaces and changing their angle. Strengthen the spars with some carbon.

Thank you very much for your input gentlemen. Mr. Williamson, I have more questions for you but will e-mail you later once I get home from work.

I would love to hear from more Majestic owners. What else can anyone tell me about this aircraft?

[georgeg]

OK then,

So far the consensus appears to be:

Lighten the tailgroup as much as possible while enlarging the control surfaces and changing their angle. Strengthen the spars with some carbon.

Thank you very much for your input gentlemen. Mr. Williamson, I have more questions for you but will e-mail you later once I get home from work.

I would love to hear from more Majestic owners. What else can anyone tell me about this aircraft?

Here in Bakersfield, CA, the Majestic is a fairly popular model. Several of our models have been modified to a +tail similar to the Ava. Also, a stiffer boom is desired by some. The stock boom tends to flex on a hard launch.

[WEB01]

Those x-tails look very interesting. I'm curious as to what the advantage is (perceived or otherwise) of making a change like that. Is it a weight consideration or a control consideration? I would like to know weight wise how the two compare. Also, what boom are most people using to replace the stock boom?

[WEB01]

Another question for you Georgeg. I notice in your pictures that you are launching from winches in your area. Do you modifiy your wings at all when you build them and if so, how? Do you add any carbon or change the structure of the wing at all?

[prodjx]

Web01, in reference to Crucifom tail's a friend put one on his Majestic and flew it for quite a while, then I let him fly my stock version,V-tail, he said there seemed to be little or no diference in handling
One thing I noticed on another friends Majestic was that the cone on the end of the boom kept coming off, I left mine off because of that, and on one launch watched my antenna tube eject it self out of the boom, I felt I really didn't anyway. Nytol.

[WEB01]

Thanks for the info prodjx. I was kind of thinking that if the cruciform tail was a control consideration, Dr. Drela's suggested mods would take care of that. One of the reasons that I bought the Majestic kit is that I like the looks of the V tail. It sets it apart from most of the other gliders at the local field.

Any more comments from anybody out there?

[nlpken]

Web01 - georgeg asked me to chime in on this thread as I was the first person in Bakersfield to modify the tail group on the Majestic. Maybe I can answer some of your questions. I have built four Majestics - the first one was stock with v-tails and no carbon in the wing. The other three I incorporated some of Dr. Drela's modifications using tapered carbon on the center panel spars and washout on the mid panels. I downloaded the plans for the Bubble Dancer horizontal stabalizer and a club member constructed a v mount for me. Fin and rudder I just made something that looked good to me - I'm not an engineer :). I used the stock boom and due to the lighter tail did not encounter any problems with flex. The modified Majestics seemed to fly much better than the stock one and required less nose weight for CG placement. If you plan on using a winch, I would definitely add carbon to the spars per Dr. Drela's instructions. Attached are some pictures of the last one I built.

Thermals,

Ken

[WEB01]

Great looking pics nlpken!

I'm just wondering how the auw compares between the V-tail and the cruciform tail versions of the Majestic. I also noticed that you mention that you used tapered carbon in the center panels of the wing. Does that mean that there is no carbon in the mid or tip panels?

[nlpken]

Web01 - Thank you for your kind words re the photos. To answer your questions about the spars, I used tapered carbon spar caps in the center panels only. I no longer have the stock Majestic but if I recall it weighed 67 ounces. The last one I built came in at 63 ounces - all up weight. I would recommend you build the entire plane as light as possible - especially the tail. If you do a search on RC Groups you will find a lot of different variations of the Majestic. If I were to build another one I would incorporate all of the modifications recommended by Dr. Drela. I used the stock boom because no others were available at the time. A lighter and stiffer boom would be a big help in keeping the weight down. These are just my opinions. Good luck with your Majestic.

Thermals,

Ken

[WEB01]

Thanks Ken,

I've been trying to soak up as much information about the Majestic as I can and your recomendations sound bang on. Weight seems to be the primary concern with this airplane. That and tip stalls but the tip stall issue is dealt with in the instructions now where they advise to use washout in the mid-panel.

Looks like I am going to have to order some carbon parts if I want to maximize the potential of this airplane. I will have to decide what boom is the best replacement currently available. Any thoughts on that one out there?

[Speedo125]

I got mine from Polecat Aero. Very light and very strong. Pretty fair finish too.

[WEB01]

Is yours the Bubble Dancer tailboom or the Supra tailboom?

[williamson]

nlpken said that his Majestic with a stock tail boom came in at 67 ounces. Another stock Majestic in our club weighed 69 ounces. My Majestic with all of the mods (including a tapered carbon fiber boom) weighed 56 ounces including four ounces of lead in the nose.

[WEB01]

Hi Dick,

After seeing everything that you did to lighten your Majestic, I can't imagine getting one up and ready to go any lighter. 56 ounces is certainly an ambitious goal to shoot for!

Ward

[Speedo125]

Mine is from Polecat is the BD tailboom. I'm using all of Dr. D's mods except that I'm going for flaps instead of spoilers. -Thom

[WEB01]

Thanks for the response Thom.

Anybody out there have a BD tailboom that they aren't going to use?

Ward

[Rogo]

Ward -

Just to add to your confusion, check out the extensive Majestic build thread and mods by Chuckand:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=607717&highlight=majestic

My 2 cents re. wing attachment on Page 2 of that thread.

I might add enlarging the spoilers by a bay or two - brings it down much quicker. I made mine out of 1/8" sheet balsa with .014 uni carbon sheet on the undersides - plenty strong.

Don't get too hung up on the mods. Build it, fly it, enjoy it. A friend of mine with a lot more experience flies a stock Majestic and he usually outflies me.

[WEB01]

Thanks for the response Rogo. I really like how you put your spoilers together.

You hit the nail on the head when you commented on adding to my confusion. I was already familiar with Chuckand's build log and have now read through the build log mentioned by Mr. Williamson. I have read through the Drela modification suggestions and Mr. Williamson was kind enough to provide me with a very detailed description of all the mods he had made to his Majestic.

What I have found confusing is trying to weigh the advantages of the various mods against the additional costs (both monetary and labor wise) involved to try to decide what changes would be worth it for me and the flying that I will be doing. I would love to do all of the mods but my budget just won't allow it.

When I started this thread I was hoping to hear the opinions of people who had not done any modifications or at least only a few mods. While those voices have been pretty quiet, I have run across a few comments from people indicating that this airplane flies very well eventhough it tends to come out on the heavy side. A local pilot termed it as 'flying lighter than it really is'. In one comment that I read a pilot indicated that he was able to build a Majestic that weighed in somewhere in the mid 50 oz. area but that he balasted it up to 60 oz. because it flew better there.

As a result of my information gathering, I will be going through with several mods that are designed to improve handling. Due to the fact that a BD carbon fiber boom would end up costing me about $50 by the time it showed up at my door and would likely save me about 4 oz., I will be going ahead with the stock boom. My goal will be to finish it as close to the 60 oz. mark as I can get it.

It was -44 C. with the windchill this morning so I am stuck indoors dreaming of a flying season that is fast approaching. I would like to thank everyone who responded to my thread for their input but it's time for me to quit thinkin' and start building.

[ecormier]

I used carbon rods for my Majestic's V-tail, and permanently epoxied them into a balsa "cork" stuffed and glued at the end of the tailboom.

With the permanently attached v-tails, I can't fit the fuselage neatly into my carrying bag (a snowboad bag). The v-tails stick out of the bag and get banged everywhere.

If I were to build it over again, I'd find a way to use carbons rods, yet make the vtails detachable. That or a build a crosstail ala Bubble Dancer.

Uhm, what else... I left the spoilers at their stock size, and found that they could have been larger. They're still big enough that the glider won't float forever when trying to touch down.

Moving the CG back from the recommended location makes the plane alot more responsive to controls.

Another thing to watch out for is the plywood along the sides of the fuselage where the joiner rod passes through. Those parts exploded on me once when I caught a wing on landing. I had to reinforce the inner plywood with carbon strips. You might also want to add another layer of plywood on the inside where the joiner rod passes through.

If you think you might electrify your Majestic later on, don't let the tailboom go all the way up to the forward-most former with the hole in it. Leave that space for a LiPo battery that'll be conveniently close to the CG. If you opt for a carbon tailboom, I don't think it'll reach that forward-most former anyway.

If have a picture of what the LiPo space looks like in this thread:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=511830

BTW, mounting the motor to only the front plywood is too flimsy. Look into better ways of mounting the motor if you decide to electrify. I'm sure you and everyone else already knows better. :D

I found the Majestic to be a nice and very affordable intermediate sailplane. I hope you have great adventures with yours.

Emile

[Stantem]

Here is my Majestic with +tail. Stock air foil, carbon reinforced spars in the main panels, wraped with kevlar thread. Weighs 59 ounces. Will handle a full pedal launch but I soft pedal it in strong wind. The best flying plane I ever owned. nlpken (above) was the first to modify a Majestic in Bakersfield. He assisted me a great deal when I built this plane.

[WEB01]

Beautiful Majestic you have there Stantem. It's funny that you posted this now as I was just contemplating a color scheme. Your airplane is basically what I was considering for a color scheme... nice to see how good it looks.

I have a question for the Bakersfield boys. When I ordered my kit I got the stock wing joiners as well as a second set that I assume is to conform to the Drela mods (I indicated that I wanted the kit with the available Drela mods). The stock joiners appear to be 7 degrees (A joiner) and 16 degrees (B joiner). The mod'd joiners appear to be 12 degrees (A joiner) and 11 degrees (B joiner). When I drew out the Drela mods, they appear to call for a 10 degree joiner at both dihedral breaks. My question is, what joiners have you used in your builds if you went for the mod'd wing planform?

Ward

[lincoln]

I've flown a Majestic which I was told was pretty stock. I was immediately comfortable with it, and this was on a windy day.

I now have one with the mods which needs fixing up. Anyone know what the normal boom weighs? I have some booms I made for something else and would like to compare weight.

THanks,

Lincoln

[nlpken]

Ward - check your private messages.

Thermals,

Ken

[WEB01]

Thanks for the PM Ken. Much appreciated.

[Stantem]

Ward,

I received the stock wing joiners only. I dont recall the degrees but I used the stock ones. I recall I had trouble getting the angles correct using the plywood gauge they give you in the kit. On my next one, I will use my table saw sliding table set up to cut them exact.

Mine is basically box stock except the tail and carbon on the spars in the main panel.