3D Hobby Shop 87" Extra SHP

[NumbSkull]

3D Hobby Shop (http://www.3dhobbyshop.com/) is proud to announce that the newest member of the Extra SHP family is now in the beta testing stages of development!!

Designed around the DL50 gas engine, but with electric conversion in mind, the new 87" Extra SHP is sure to live up to the legacy that has been placed by it's two smaller siblings. Like the 47" and the 55" SHP, the new 87" SHP is sure to leave pilots grinning ear to ear after each flight.

Here's a video (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=784011#post8704492) and a few photos from Ben and Scott's collection to start the thread off with.

Edit: You can find the manual by clicking here. (http://www.3dhobbyshop.com/private_images/manuals/instructionmanual87extra.pdf)

[NumbSkull]

With 1475 square inches of wing and tipping the scales in the 16 lb range, this model is perfect for electric conversion. Like the 85" Katana, the SHP conversion should pretty straight forward.

I'll be testing mine with a Hacker A60-18L, spin 99 and powered with 12S 5000 mah TPx packs.

Like the other 3DH models, the 87" SHP will be capable of extreme aerobatics thanks to it's large control surfaces and their huge throws. To keep the surfaces swinging, it's recommended to go with extremely high torque servos. I plan to use Hitec's 5955TG servos all the way around mine, but JR's super high torque servos would also work. To achieve full deflection on the control surfaces, it's recommended that a two inch servo arm be used for ailerons, and elevators. For the rudder pull-pull, a four inch arm is recommended.

With this type of power, and that type of controls, the new 87" Extra SHP is sure to be a blast to fly.

[blucor basher]

Thanks for starting this thread, Noah. It'll get the Extra stuff out of the Katana thread, and give the guys doing beta builds a place to ask/tell/show.

A little background on this project is appropriate, I guess.

We're really priveleged to be able to work with Scott Stoops, who has been reviewing giant scale aircraft for the RC magazine business for years, has been an aircraft developer for several manufacturers, has written a great book on aerobatic flying, owns and flies a full scale Sukhoi 26MX...well, you get the idea.

Scott worked with us to develop the 47" and 55" Extra SHP aircraft, and so it's a natural to do a 50CC version of the airplane with him driving the bus.

The airplane is as direct a scale-up of the 55" SHP as we can do. Everyone who has flown the 55" SHP will understand why. It's a very low-rock, low coupling, excellent tracking platform.

The aircraft is intended, equally, for 50CC gasoline and 12S electric. We're using the DA-50R and DL-50 engines in the prototypes, we've also made provisions for 3W, 3MM, and Brillelli...and pretty much anything else 46-55CC will work fine. We've been using the Hacker A60-18L on our electrics, it works really well. We'll have at least on other brand of outrunner on a beta, and we may even see an inrunner-powered beta, we'll see how that goes.

Some details of the aircraft are:

87" Wingspan
87" Length
RTF weight 50CC gas dry 15.5-16.5 lbs
Wing area 1475 sq. in.

Main gear and tail gear - unidirection molded carbon w/ woven outer layer

Wing spar and tail spar - carbon male tube, captured inside bi-directional carbon female receiver tube (Yes, very light and very strong)

Clear canopy pre-installed onto large top hatch

Wings and stabs shipped inside custom bags

Phenolic double-shear control horns

Pre-assembled motor box with aluminum reinforcement

Aluminum main gear mount



In short, we wanted the very best of the very best. Now it's time for the beta testers to get their hands on them! Some details have already been changed from the betas to the eventual production models, wheel pant attachment, spar diameter, and a few other improvements. We have a couple of betas going gasoline, and a couple going electric. Should be fun.

3DHS

[mcharles13]

Now we're talking! This is the one i've been waiting for. Can't wait to see how it performs electric 14s a123. muhuhahaha. :D :D

,mike

[3Deranged]

A123's oh yeah! My dastardly plan all along. ;) This airframe is built lite enough to take the extra weight. Was dreading putting 14s2p M1's in other planes of this size due to weight buildup. Now this looks possible with the 300 SHP. I'm phsyced to check out the new cells and fast charging times. And after reading the Nano Wire technology discovery on Flying Giants, the next few years should yield even lighter batteries with incredible storage capacity, safety and better flying planes! Now battery weights will be a thing of the past with cells that contain 10 times the Mah capacity in the same size packs. Or the same capacity only 10 times smaller or thereabouts. By the time my M1 packs go flat, hopefully they'll be out. :D Looks like the 3DHS gang have pulled out the stops on this plane. I've been dying to try out a giant scale electric project, and the 87" SHP fits the bill to a T. I'll stick with A60-18L/Hacker Spin 99/JR 8611's for now and plan on testing out the new Scorpion 5455 series of motors when they become available. Now that we're all drooling....oh,and here's my new screen saver :cool:

[NumbSkull]

I keep hearing about this new scorpion motor, does anyone know when it's supposed to be available? Sounds like it will be a nice fit for large scale electrics.

[3Deranged]

Just e-mailed Lucien to see when it might be available. Supposed to be first of the year or so. Supposed to spin up to a 26 x 10 on 12s lipo. Sounds like it's a little overpowered @ 5kw burst...perfect! :eek: Should be able to keep it in the 4kw range with the right prop and still not overload motor at all. We've been testing out a Scorpion 3020-14 out in an Element F3A and it is a solid performing motor for sure. Same weight as an equivolent motor with more output, can't go wrong. ESC's are working as advertised too. The Commander 55 is easy to program and it hasn't had any overheating/overload issues. The larger 5545 motor will probably need a back bearing support if you plan on some hard 3D(I know I do!). I'll incorporate an adjustable back bearing support for testing out various large outrunners as they become available. Plan on doing a carbon cage mount instead of the usual metal cage to save some weight. The newer "Miracle Switch" with built in adjustable voltage reg.(1oz. total) by MPI looks like it will make a good match for the ESC/Rx power supply. Getting a Thunder Power 2100 RX- 7.4v pack to power everything. If I'm going to go 14s2p M1's, got to save as many oz's as possible. The Kat on M1's seems to do well with the weight and it's got about 100 squares less than the Extra. That should help support the added 1lb or so from the packs.

[blucor basher]

Let me know what Lucien says about motor availability, I'd like to try one, too. I'd like to see a really reliable 100A setup, that would make the SHP crazy. :D

[3Deranged]

Sure thing, I've been impressed with Scorpion(s) so far. Looks like they've done their homework too. Let me know what Lucien says about motor availability, I'd like to try one, too. I'd like to see a really reliable 100A setup, that would make the SHP crazy. :D

[Innov8tive]

Hi Guys!

This is Lucien from Innov8tive Designs. The 55mm series of motors are still a ways off. Scorpion will be shipping me the first batch of the new HK-3026 helicopter motors and the new 6-cell ESC's with built-in Switching BEC's just in time for the AMA show in 2 weeks.

They are currently working on the 35mm Helicopter motors, the 4035 motors to expand the 40mm line, the new 2203 motors for indoor F3B competition, and the 12-cell Speed controllers. Once those projects are complete, then the 55mm motors will be next, so it will most likely be March or April for the 55mm motors. We need something to debut at Toledo! :D

At any rate, just to whet your appetites, here is a photo of the prototype 5545-16 motor that I have, along with the prototype 120amp 12-cell ESC. This set-up is roughly equivilent in power to a Quadra 52 gas motor, and will turn a 24x12 or 26x10 prop on 12 Li-Po cells.

http://innov8tivedesigns.com/rcgroups/5545wESC.jpg





This motor has a large diameter ring bearing in the back end to support the rear end of the flux ring, and prevent the motor shaft from flexing during hard 3D maneuvers. Here is a shot of the back end of a prototype 4045 motor to show this bearing assembly.

http://innov8tivedesigns.com/rcgroups/40mmMotorBack.jpg




I just got a few photos a few days ago of what the production version of the 90 and 120 amp 12-cell ESC's looks like. The 90 amp model is in the front, and the 120 amp model is in the back. Just take a look at these beauties!! :eek:


http://innov8tivedesigns.com/rcgroups/New12Cell.jpg




All of the information is on the bottom side of the ESC. Here is a photo of the bottom of the 120 amp model to see how they look.

http://innov8tivedesigns.com/rcgroups/New12Cell120.jpg




The production models should be very similar in appearance to the above examples. The 5545-16 motor shown above weighs 1023 grams (36.05 ounces), and the 120 amp ESC tips the scales at 217 grams (7.65 ounces), so the total package weighs 1240 grams (43.7 ounces).

So there you go. Take a look at that and see what you think!

Happy New Year Everyone!

Lucien

[blucor basher]

Lucien, will the motor do 100A on 12S? If so, that's a h*ll of a lot more than a Quadra 52...

Looks great. Pleas let us know if some of these will be available by SEFF. If so, I suspect some people in this thread will want them.

[NumbSkull]

Lucien, the motor and ESC look great!! Please keep us updated on their release, it sounds like it will be perfect for the big models from 3DH. I certainly be picking up a setup when they're available.

[3Deranged]

Looks like I'll have to stick with the purple motor till these are available...thanks for the info Lucien. We'll be chomping at the bit in a few months to get ahold of the 5455's!

[NumbSkull]

Purple power should serve us well for starters, but I think the new scorpion will put the extra in the "foamy power" class!!!

[3Deranged]

Looks about 8oz. heavier than the 18L, but with 1000 or so extra watts that shouldn't be a hinderance. Wonder if the LG can handle a 26" prop? Sounds like some serious vertical power to me! :D :cool:

[Jeffery]

I'd be interested in what the RPM vs watts bottom line is on the various motors. I've noticed that some motors can claim a very high "watts in" reading, but when it comes to "RPM out", those extra watts don't really do much.

[BoneDoc]

The ideal prop for the 18L per Sean's recs is an APC 25x12.5E. He's tried it with a 26x13 before, and while you can do it, it'll can fry your system IF you don't know what "throttle management" means :D.

[3Deranged]

25 x 12.5 on 10s or 12s? Notice the 18L is rated for 10s but seems to do OK with 12s. Everyone seems to be sticking with the 24 x 10 Xoar on 12s for 3D. The 25" should really push the amps on 12s. Like to see the power readings on that setup.

[blucor basher]

Also, I'm very satisfied with the performance on 24" and 12S 5000mah. Sure, more is always nice, but the pullout from hover is very satisfactory. In my experience, the Hackers are very heat-resistant and I could probably prop it bigger, but personally I don't feel the need.

[BoneDoc]

12S. Ignore the rating. 4000-5000 watts is more accurate (if you have throttle management).

... let me clarify though, that this number I'm quoting is based on the newer 2007 motor design with better cooling. The "old" motor is probably good to 3600-4000 watts.

When I had it on my Dalton 260, my motor would come down around 110' after my flights with a 24x12 on 12S.

[3Deranged]

Thanks for the input guys, advice well taken. I have already sacrificed scorched offerings to the RC Gods :rolleyes: No need for repeats. Nice to have real world stats from folks who have already been there done that. :)

[BoneDoc]

At the end of the day, that's what I'm after anyway. Unless I'm really charting unmapped territory (which is rare these days), it's nice to just fall back on a "proven" setup.

[3Deranged]

I think we'll all striving for the "bulletproof" system(s). I think we've all had our fare share of aerial mishaps due to equipment issues. Of course there never is a 100% system, but if we don't aim for total reliability we're shooting ourselves in the landing gear so to speak. I'm even considering an external cooling unit this summer to help reduce motor/esc/battery temps more rapidly when it's 90 plus degrees and 100% humidity. If I plan on flying more during the hot months I'd at least like to make sure everything has a chance to cool off between flights. I've seen fans used but I'll be using a solid state "heat sink" type cooling system(12V-simple) and some flex ducting to the model/packs. Heat is our enemy and that's one way to increase the life of the electric system. Won't need it for the cooler weather, but here in the Southeast we need to dump heat most of the year not retain it!

[3Deranged]

Ok BoneDoc, just saw the second deadstick. Ouch, but the airframe is still in one piece. Now that's some good engineering and repair work! Glad to see there's some durability in these airframes. I've already seen how lot's of 3D abuse will turn a nice tight airframe into a balsa pinata after a years time! Looks like you can patch it up and get her back in the air again, knock on balsa wood.

[blucor basher]

Just had a nice talk with Lucien about the forthcoming big Scorpion motors. It sounds like really exciting stuff, we might be looking at much high power levels that we're used to. Can't wait to get one in my hands (or, actually, on an 87") to try.

Also going to try one of the big PJS outrunners, they look good too. I'm hoping to get some numbers and flight impressions on one within a few days. I'll let you guys know how the testing goes.

[sun.flyer]

I think we'll all striving for the "bulletproof" system(s). I think we've all had our fare share of aerial mishaps due to equipment issues. Of course there never is a 100% system, but if we don't aim for total reliability we're shooting ourselves in the landing gear so to speak. I'm even considering an external cooling unit this summer to help reduce motor/esc/battery temps more rapidly when it's 90 plus degrees and 100% humidity. If I plan on flying more during the hot months I'd at least like to make sure everything has a chance to cool off between flights. I've seen fans used but I'll be using a solid state "heat sink" type cooling system(12V-simple) and some flex ducting to the model/packs. Heat is our enemy and that's one way to increase the life of the electric system. Won't need it for the cooler weather, but here in the Southeast we need to dump heat most of the year not retain it!


There is no doubt that the Hacker motors have proved themselves to be highly effiecient well beyond there rated numbers (watts/amps). Combine that with there relative lightweight compared to some of the other 10s-12s rated motors and they are indeed a terrific motor.

However, what is great about the giant scale 3DHS airplanes is that they will fly great on a variety of motor setups. I'm pretty sure that Steve Neu wouldn't be putting an outrunner on the front of his 3DHS 85" Katana or 87" SHP. None the less his motors would most likely workout just great on both airplanes. Same goes for the motors that Ben has listed above. I am also sure you will probably see other manufactures coming out with larger 10s-12s motors that will be as "bulletproof" as the Hacker line has proven to be.

Let's face it guys we are in the mist of a "E"-volution when it comes to giant scale electrics. Motor manufactures are finally seeing this and I am sure they will be responding just like Scorpion/PJS/Hacker/AXI /(GP?) already have.

As a consumer we will be the beneficaries to all this technology. As we all know the more motor companies that come out with this size of motor the more competion there will be which will result in the eventually lower cost of these motors to the consumers.

I love this hobby. :) 08' is going to be a great year!!

Tim

[Jeffery]

I'm leaning towards the Neu 1521 power (seeing as how I just bought one).

The outrunners are great, but it just kills me to see guys posting astronomical watt-in readings and not getting any RPM-out to go with it. I've done some comparisons and generally get the same RPM with about 25% less watts-in. That's a lot when you're talking about 4,000 watts (although I've never compaired anything of that power). That's why I'm always trying to outrunner guys to post up some RPM figures, it's almost like 2 different sets of figures: Outrunner watts and inrunner watts. What matters is RPMs.

So look for me struggling along at 3kw while the outrunner guys are posting up their scorching 4,000~4500 watt numbers :)

Don't get me wrong, the majority of guys like the simplicity of the outrunner and I certainly don't fault them for that. It's when I see "I've got 400 watts/lb!" and they don't have any more RPM than my plane at a measly 200 watts/lb that just makes me cringe.

[BoneDoc]

1521 should be pretty good. I know that it's rated for only 3000 watts, but I saw someone put it to 4000 watts on his Deitrich Extra 260, and it seems to do fine.

Where did you get yours?

[Jeffery]

1521 should be pretty good. I know that it's rated for only 3000 watts, but I saw someone put it to 4000 watts on his Deitrich Extra 260, and it seems to do fine.

Where did you get yours?

That's kinda what I meant... 3000 watts is a relative term. 3000 watts is a totally different number depending on what you are running. He never gave any RPM figures on the 24X10, but I think they'd be pretty close to what you'd get with other motors at over 5kw. But anyway...



I bought mine off the RCGroups forums, that's the way I can afford to run stuff like this ;)

[QuietRCFly]

How about an Astro 8120-5T (inrunner) on 12S? Looked pretty good in the Quiet Flyer Hangar-9 Sundowner hop up article this month.

Chris

Quiet RC Flying
www.quietrcflying.com

[twest]

I'd suggest the astro 6 turn 120. It can turn a bigger prop on 12s; the 5 turn can only turn an 18-8 on 12s at nearly 100 amps. The 6 turn can turn a 20-10 on 12s at 75 amps and I've heard of people using it at 85 amps on 12s, so a larger prop is possible.


You will always have a smaller prop with an inrunner direct than an outrunner or geared inrunner.

[davemilw07]

I'm a complete novice when it comes to GS electric power systems, so don't be surprised if I ask some rather dumb questions.............

But I'll follow this thread, in order to try and get up to speed (someday) :).

I rather like the RWB color scheme on the Extra myself, is that going to be a production version??

Also, what's going on with the 3DHS giant Yak (or is it a Sukhoi?) that I thought I saw some photos of ???

[3Deranged]

'Nother 18L question for you guys, are you using the stock prop adapter? And whatever one you use, are you adding some set screws and a flat spot on the shaft for better grip? Inquiring minds want to know... :) Thanks!

[F1 Rocket]

'Nother 18L question for you guys, are you using the stock prop adapter? And whatever one you use, are you adding some set screws and a flat spot on the shaft for better grip? Inquiring minds want to know... :) Thanks!

I have used the stock parts without problems. On the A60 series the prop drive hub is a collet type and the motor shaft itself is threaded with a supplied double locknut.

Danny

[BoneDoc]

Yep. But it's pretty thick for anything but APC props.

[NumbSkull]

I'm using the stock prop adapter as well, and have never had any problems with it.

[3Deranged]

Thanks for the response guys. Didn't want a 24" prop to go spinning off(ouch!). Saw a thread on installing set screws, sounded like a wise idea! But if it's not broke...I'll be swinging a Xoar 24 x 10 first so might be a little woodworking to get it on but that's OK.

[BoneDoc]

Got some pics.... Mr. Peanut did some AWESOME TR DOD. I mean we're talking inches of the pavement.

[3Deranged]

More pics? Let's see 'em!

[blucor basher]

Video of 87" flying today coming in about an hour. Pics from today.

[BoneDoc]

Nice set of batteries there :D.

[sun.flyer]

Great looking SHP Ben!! I really like the electrical setup you have.

Wow the 87" SHP has quite a bit of size difference compared to the 85" Katana.

Excellent pics!!

Tim

[BoneDoc]

Ok, as promised.

... more to come, but family priorities come first.

[blucor basher]

Today's video here. (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=796910#post8868177)

[NumbSkull]

Great pics guys!! I really like the pic of the extra next to the Kat.... the 3DH big boys waiting for their turn on the flight line!!!


Ben, I see your flying a power regulator/distribution box in your extra. My Kat doesn't use a dist. box, and I hadn't planned on one in the Extra, should I be reconsidering this? My kat uses a 2S A123 pack plugged directly into the rx, and I had planned the same setup for the Extra.

[sun.flyer]

What happened to the wheel pants?

Ben,

Are you flying the AR 9000 on your DX 7 or did you pic up a 9303 2.4ghz?

Tim

[blucor basher]

I'm using it on my DX7.

I'm saving the wheelpants for Scott's dem in AZ.

[blucor basher]

Ben, I see your flying a power regulator/distribution box in your extra. My Kat doesn't use a dist. box, and I hadn't planned on one in the Extra, should I be reconsidering this? My kat uses a 2S A123 pack plugged directly into the rx, and I had planned the same setup for the Extra.

Your setup is fine...I had these parts from another project (a big one) and I thought I ought to use them.

[NumbSkull]

Great video, got to love seeing a plane that size only an inch or two from the deck!! Infact, I think I saw one or two shots where you might have come real close to leaving a little covering on the pavement....

[sun.flyer]

Great video, got to love seeing a plane that size only an inch or two from the deck!! Infact, I think I saw one or two shots where you might have come real close to leaving a little covering on the pavement....


Ditto!! :) Nice Ben!! That was 5:58 mins of pure bliss for me. Ben, how did you like the power on the 24 x 12? Looked to be plenty for the low 3D stuff. Just curious what the vertical performance was like on that prop. Were you able to get a wattmeter reading on it? Thanks



Tim

[BoneDoc]

Great flying Ben,

I know I was there, but this was the first time I got to see the whole flight.

If you guys are wondering what that hammering sound was, that was some quality Daddy / Daughter time (ie. Home Depot kids' project done at the field :))

[blucor basher]

It has OK vertical on the APC 24x12...just not nearly as good as the XOAR. However, the XOAR won't allow the spinner. Either way, it's plenty of thrust for 3D.

[R/C_Addict]

Looks like a great model! I'll be keeping my eye on this thread.

[3Deranged]

Sweet! :D :cool:

[BoneDoc]

Ben, how much did the pack take back after that flight on the Video?

[blucor basher]

Dunno, haven't charged them yet, but the 1st flight of the morning took back 2700mah.

[BoneDoc]

For how many minutes?

[blucor basher]

5-6

[feathermerchant]

WOW. Great flight Ben. That thing looks like it is 100ft long! Can't wait for the 2nd annual Kerrville fly-in.

[davemilw07]

The outrunners are great, but it just kills me to see guys posting astronomical watt-in readings and not getting any RPM-out to go with it. I've done some comparisons and generally get the same RPM with about 25% less watts-in. That's a lot when you're talking about 4,000 watts (although I've never compaired anything of that power). That's why I'm always trying to outrunner guys to post up some RPM figures, it's almost like 2 different sets of figures: Outrunner watts and inrunner watts. What matters is RPMs.

Good Point! I've always wondered about that myself........ Exactly what ACTUAL RPM do some of these motor/battery/prop combos provide? And then there's always the question of how much THRUST is actually produced?

Also, what's the difference between electric props and standard props? Wouldn't an E.P. work equally as well on a gas engine?

[blucor basher]

I'm a big believer in flight testing. I think the feel and response of a power system is important, I want to feel it before I start talking about it.

Typically, gas props are going to have a lot more meat in them, particularly in the hub area, to put up with the pulsing nature of piston-power.

[Jeffery]

I'm a big believer in flight testing. I think the feel and response of a power system is important, I want to feel it before I start talking about it.



That's commendable, we'll have to get you a head-to-head one of these days. Have you ever flown a plane with any large (4000W or so) inrunner set-ups to compare against?

[800mZero]

Nice flying ben on a beatiful airplane--i love the scheme!!!

Question though---whats up with the yanks hat :D

[blucor basher]

Ach, my wife is a big fan, it's her hat.

[blucor basher]

That's commendable, we'll have to get you a head-to-head one of these days. Have you ever flown a plane with any large (4000W or so) inrunner set-ups to compare against?

Only the Astro...and it was not a good experience. I'll purchase a BAM sometime soon, when I have some time to devote to it.

[Jeffery]

I kinda steered clear of the BAM in favor of the 1521. The trouble I see with the BAM is the 30K RPM limit on the motor, and the fact that the only ratio is 6.7:1. That really limits the prop RPM you can run, and results in huge props being needed. Even if you upped the pack voltage/lowered the kv, you'd still be limited to ~4500 RPM at the prop. It'b be better suited to a 35% or so plane, IMHO.

The 1521 is good to 50K+ RPM, so using the same gearbox as on the BAM on it gives a more manageable prop diameter. As long as it's kept in the ~4kW range, it seems to be happy enough (I haven't run mine yet, but I've seen a few posts of guys running them at this power without trouble).

Just something to think about (aside from the fact that the BAM is almost twice as expensive as a 1521, which is already pretty expensive compared to a A60-18L).

ETA.. The Astro isn't a geared inrunner, I should have specified "geared" in my previous post.

[blucor basher]

It'b be better suited to a 35% or so plane, IMHO.

Exactly...

:cool:

[800mZero]

Ach, my wife is a big fan, it's her hat.


So you got a sox hat or do Ih ave to send you one :D

[blucor basher]

My wife would steal it and bad things would happen to it.

[BoneDoc]

It'b be better suited to a 35% or so plane, IMHO.

Exactly...

:cool:


.... world domination strategy unfolding here folks :D.

[davemilw07]

I'm a big believer in flight testing. I think the feel and response of a power system is important, I want to feel it before I start talking about it.

Ok, can you provide any info about whatever systems you may have already tested????

[BoneDoc]

3500-4000 watts works great on this airframe.

[Jeffery]

3500-4000 watts works great on this airframe.

Inrunner watts, or outrunner watts? :D

[NumbSkull]

Inrunner watts, or outrunner watts? :D


:rolleyes:

:D

[BoneDoc]

Watts are watts :D.

[feathermerchant]

Oh no.

[Jeffery]

Watts are watts :D.

True, it's what you do with them that counts ;)

[davemilw07]

Watts are watts :D.
Yes, but Watts lost in Heat are wasted energy. That's why I'm curious about output power (actual RPM and THRUST measurements).........

What's the best and/or most efficient combos (including price/weight tradeoffs)??????????

[NumbSkull]

If this keeps up, I'm switching to gas....

:D:D

[blucor basher]

Ok, can you provide any info about whatever systems you may have already tested????

I have by far the most time on the Hacker A60-18L, I have only good things to say about that product.

I was not happy with either the Hyperion 5045 or the Astro 120. I have no interest in getting flamed by anyone associated with either product line so I won't be saying any more about it online.

We obtained one of the UH HXT motors in the appropriate size, but because of machining errors, it was not runnable without us spending time with it in the machine shop. Not worth it. It's now a doorstop.

We have recently obtained a PJS 10000 3D. Looking forward to testing it. It looks good.

We use Castle Creations HV 110 esc's. Probably, the Jeti would be more reliable, but we can actually purchase the CC's from our distribution, they give us excellent customer service, and we've never actually had one fail in the air.

We've run 12S packs from Thunder Power (5000 mah Extreme), Flightpower (5000 mah), Hyperion (4350 mah) all with excellent results. All have held up to dozens and dozens of cycles, charged at 1C and balanced after charging each time.

We've just made a deal to have our own 3DH 12S 5350mah 25C packs produced. We're doing this to support our 85 and 87" aircraft, so we'll be selling these packs for approx $400 per 12S set. We'll do an intro special on them for even a bit less.

Hope that helps.

[davemilw07]

If this keeps up, I'm switching to gas....

:D:D
Sorry if I'm confusing the issue with the facts :confused: ................

[Jeffery]

Yes, but Watts lost in Heat are wasted energy. That's why I'm curious about output power (actual RPM and THRUST measurements).........

What's the best and/or most efficient combos (including price/weight tradeoffs)??????????

Nobody knows...

Inrunners in this size are virtually unheard of, what is needed is some RPM figures on given props from the outrunner guys.

I'd say the A60-18L Hacker is going to be hard to beat for price, and it's not bad for weight.

There's a couple of guys in Europe with a Plettenberg Terminator in a 88" EF Yak, but in the States, it's like $1000+ for the motor/spinner, and it's 4oz heavier than the Hacker. Probably pretty efficient.

I put my money on Motor X, more expensive than the Hacker, but 3oz lighter. Yet to be seen on efficiency personally, but I won't be afraid to post RPM readings when I get the whole deal assembled.

I really don't have anything against the outrunners, they are certainly a very attractive option. It's just the posting of watts without RPMs that kills me, it makes the outrunners appear much more powerful. Not that I guess that matters, but it sure makes the efficient systems appear puny.

[BoneDoc]

This will be my last comment on this matter.

I do not doubt that NEU is probably more efficient. However, you don't have any real world experience either to talk about Jeff other than having bought a 1521. I'm not posting this as a mean of being argumentative. But I don't want to drive people AWAY from what is potentially a very inexpensive and viable solution for our giant scale aircrafts. Until you have real data of your own to post (and hence contribute positively in this thread), I would hope that we could refrain from this inrunner vs outrunner debate on THIS thread. If you must, please START your own thread (actually there is one already in the GS electric forum).

All I can tell is that at 3500-4000 watt usage, the Hacker A60-18L stays relatively cool, just warm to the touch (which tells me that it's around 110-130 degrees). If it were really that inefficient, it would've heat up quickly. I can also tell you that it gives very good punch out from a hover, very comparable to a DA50 on cans or even a tuned pipe.

IMHO, the best PROVEN setup (price/performance) is a Hacker A60 18L. Mr. Peanut is trying out other stuff also, but this is a combo that he will wholeheartedly recommend (and I concur with him on this one also).

[blucor basher]

I'm anxious to test the PJS against the Hacker...but as you can probably tell, I'm much more interested in reliability that output. 3500W is very satisfying on a 15-16 lb. airplane. For right now, the Hacker does that reliably. It gives me enough confidence to take a multi-thousand-dollar airplane and torque-roll it down the runway. For the moment, the Hacker A60-18L is the ONLY motor I have that amount of confidence in for our aircraft. I have hopes the PJS will be at least as good. It certainly has a better prop drive.

Gear drives fill me with dread, I know I need to evaluate them, but I just don't want any more complexity.

There is a better motor. Hopefully it is coming. The design drawings I've seen made me salivate. I hope it gets produced. I can't say any more about it.

[Jeffery]

This will be my last comment on this matter.

I do not doubt that NEU is probably more efficient. However, you don't have any real world experience either to talk about Jeff other than having bought a 1521. I'm not posting this as a mean of being argumentative. But I don't want to drive people AWAY from what is potentially a very inexpensive and viable solution for our giant scale aircrafts. Until you have real data of your own to post (and hence contribute positively in this thread), I would hope that we could refrain from this inrunner vs outrunner debate on THIS thread. If you must, please START your own thread (actually there is one already in the GS electric forum).

All I can tell is that at 3500-4000 watt usage, the Hacker A60-18L stays relatively cool, just warm to the touch (which tells me that it's around 110-130 degrees). If it were really that inefficient, it would've heat up quickly. I can also tell you that it gives very good punch out from a hover, very comparable to a DA50 on cans or even a tuned pipe.

IMHO, the best PROVEN setup (price/performance) is a Hacker A60 18L. Mr. Peanut is trying out other stuff also, but this is a combo that he will wholeheartedly recommend (and I concur with him on this one also).

No, but I have a bit of experience in comparing RPM/watts with other inrunner vs outrunner set ups. And so far, the outrunner has never won (and I also own 5 other Neu set-ups, so I'm fairly familiar with how they operate within/outside their specs).

And I just bought the motor last week, I haven't had time to gather the gear up to fire it off. But it's on order.

And I said "I'd say the A60-18L Hacker is going to be hard to beat for price, and it's not bad for weight. ". I don't see how that's trying to drive people away from a viable solution.

[Jeffery]

Gear drives fill me with dread, I know I need to evaluate them, but I just don't want any more complexity.



I hear that a lot, but I've only ever had one failure on a used Hacker B50-13S I bought that had been previously crashed (and I knew that going in).

Again, I'm not trying to convert anybody away from the Hacker outrunners. I had a series of PMs from a guy who is an outrunner user (it's an ongoing in-joke between us), and a flying friend from a neighboring town, asking about my opinions of power systems for this plane and basically told him that the really best solution for this plane, IMHO, was the Hacker A60-18L.

Now, we have that out of the way.

My whole point is, how can anyone evaluate OTHER systems when guys put up only input watts? You can't. But, if they would only take a sec to also record RPM, then MANY different sytems...both inrunners and outrunners... can be compared.

[blucor basher]

Agreed...and no one has the $ to run that test. So it remains untested...

[Pistolera]

If this keeps up, I'm switching to gas....

:D:D
Amen...... :rolleyes:

[BoneDoc]

After my THIRD durability testing on the 85" Katana... pretty much Ben and I have agreed that I'm totally incompetent with Gas and I should go back to electric

... which I gladly comply :).

[margaret.roberts]

Maggie.

[BoneDoc]

It's not that. it's the fact that the 85" Kat is so light that in inverted harrier, the engine cannot reliably idle.

[margaret.roberts]

Maggie.

[davemilw07]

Agreed...and no one has the $ to run that test. So it remains untested...
All anyone really needs to do is buy an optical tach, and test/record their particular combinations (same as bench testing a gas engine)......very little money involved. Or am I missing something (a brain???) :rolleyes:

[davemilw07]

It's not that. it's the fact that the 85" Kat is so light that in inverted harrier, the engine cannot reliably idle.
TOO LIGHT???? Is that possible??????????? :eek:

[NumbSkull]

After my THIRD durability testing on the 85" Katana... pretty much Ben and I have agreed that I'm totally incompetent with Gas and I should go back to electric

... which I gladly comply .

THIRD??? :rolleyes:


Video??? :D

[blucor basher]

All anyone really needs to do is buy an optical tach, and test/record their particular combinations (same as bench testing a gas engine)......very little money involved. Or am I missing something (a brain???)

You're assuming a bunch of otherwise identical setups are sitting around, waiting to be tested. There is no way I'd trust the numbers sent in by a bunch of fanboys!

I'd love it if a bunch of motor manufacturers would send us test motors, but they tend to get (understandably) stingy with $250-500 setups.

Also, I don't go into the power systems forum or the battery forum, because I don't care who is on which team...my concern is what works, and I like to see it and fly it for myself. I'm not a Hacker fanboy, I personally have had problems with them and I'm not fond of some of their business practices (and we don't even currently sell their products) but the motor flat works, all the time. Since we're in the airframe business, the power system is, to us, a neccessary evil. We like them best when they produce adequate power and work reliably. So far, in this size, Hacker takes it, by a mile.

We'll continue to test any motors we cna get our hands on, and report our experiences. Next is the PJS 10000. It looks solid, it addresses the biggest gripe I have w/ the Hacker (the prop drive) but the mount is not as easy. We'll see how it goes.

[feathermerchant]

FWIW I have flown the Hacker A60 16 and 18M. They are graet motors and just barely capable of 3600W on 12S. I am now flying the Hacker A60 16M on 8S at about 2200W and it flies the 15lb Katana nicely.
I have also put as much as 3600W through an AXI 5330/24. It did not get really hot but did make some unusual noises.
On another plane I flew a Hacker C50XL geared at 1700 Watts and after about 5 flights, the motor unscrewed itself fron the gearbox and fell into the cowl. Dead stick was uneventful and Hacker repaired the motor for free but IMO gearboxes will always be less reliable and require more maintenance than direct drive.

[BoneDoc]

Dave,
What you are missing is someone who has the time or effort to do so. Like what Ben said, he is in the airframe business and that's where his focus is. He truly offers what works, even if he doesn't sell them, which shows you what a great and honest guy he is. Reliability is key, because it isn't reliable, customers will suffer.

Too light... for sure. Even at idle, whenever I apply full down elevator, the plane would climb. In electric it's not a problem because I can shut the prop off, or eve have it just a couple of hundred of rpm. Can't do that with gas.

Mags, 24x6... who makes them :)?


Noah,
Ben has it I think (along with 1000 points of wing touch :D).

[davemilw07]

OK, I give up !!!!!!!

Apparently almost NOBODY who flies an electric setup has EVER used a tach on their model.................... :(

[BoneDoc]

What's with the fixation with tach? On a 150kv motor with 12S, you're going to be around 6000 rpm. Unlike IC where the rpm will change dramatically with prop, electric doesn't change all that much (within reason of course). Instead Amps will go up or down.

Besides, taching here at San antonio is going to be very different than taching at Colorado springs where Scott Stoops live.

In the end, what's important is the video. How does it perform? Does it have adequate punch out? I SAW this plane in person, and it is just fine. It flies like any 16 aircraft does on a DA50.

By now also, any of the regular koolaid drinkers will tell you, trust the Peanut. He knows what he's doing, and if he says it's good.... then it is.

FWIW, I've had this setup on my 19.2 lb 35% Dalton 260, and it's adequate for what I need it to do. You can see the video of that also on the thread.