Winch Launching Issues [Archive]

BrianSmith

Dec 24, 2007, 01:15 PM

I think your wise enough and experienced enough to get a decent launch with less horse power if need be. Less stress on your equipment and PP.. Surely you won't want our/any club to spend the money it would take to do that to 8 or 10 winches would you? I'm sure in favor of milder winches all across the country.. Folks can put tank motors with steel cables on their own winches if they want.. But the folks who put on events "DO" need some relief from all this winch power/line break problem. My 2 cents.. Brian Smith

Ive been reading stuff on RCSE about line breaks, limiting winch power, etc, etc. Im having a bit of an issue when launching my Perfect, especially in a little wind, of really "stressing" out my Rahms winch as Ive got the plane pulling hard now. I simply couldnt see going to a lower power winch, in fact Im thinking about going to the Injoy 4hp winch/motor spooled w/a strong line.
Ive always owned diesel powered trucks as personally Id rather have too much power over not enough, doesnt mean you always have to put your foot into it, but nice to know its there when needed.
Walter

jfrickie

Dec 24, 2007, 01:20 PM

I have one of the winches with the 4.8 hp Injoy motor built by Jim Brandon. I haven't responded to the thread on RCSE because I think they have already beat that horse to death. I have #36 line on it (330 lb test) and have had no issues with line breaks.The line has been broken, but only by a few inexperienced flyer's that have the wide open winch mentality. I have a Perfect and it launches equally well on the Brandon winch or my FLS winch,even though the Perfect pulls harder than any plane I own. I agree with you Walter about having the power when you need it. I have had my right shoulder repaired from a massive tear and am 35% disabled in it and have had to learn to launch left handed and having more power makes it easier for me to launch my plane myself. I don't launch any higher off of either winch because I make it a point to not abuse my equipment or anyone else's. If you come to K.C to fly one of our contest, you will be flying from Brandon Winches. There are 3 in the club and another club member has a FLS winch that he rebuilt that is just as strong. The time is about up for the FLS winch because the motors are not being made anymore so when suppliers stock are used up that will be it for the FLS.

BrianSmith

Dec 24, 2007, 01:50 PM

Hi Jimmy
Will I have to launch my AVA on 330 pound line if I come to your event? What a disadvantage that would be.. I got a messed up back plus a shoulder in need to be careful with, and can't throw much of anything but an AVA.. I know folks would throw a ship for me but I think you know, nuthin' like throwing your own. Right? Thanks. Brian

I have one of the winches with the 4.8 hp Injoy motor built by Jim Brandon. I haven't responded to the thread on RCSE because I think they have already beat that horse to death. I have #36 line on it (330 lb test) and have had no issues with line breaks.The line has been broken, but only by a few inexperienced flyer's that have the wide open winch mentality. I have a Perfect and it launches equally well on the Brandon winch or my FLS winch,even though the Perfect pulls harder than any plane I own. I agree with you Walter about having the power when you need it. I have had my right shoulder repaired from a massive tear and am 35% disabled in it and have had to learn to launch left handed and having more power makes it easier for me to launch my plane myself. I don't launch any higher off of either winch because I make it a point to not abuse my equipment or anyone else's. If you come to K.C to fly one of our contest, you will be flying from Brandon Winches. There are 3 in the club and another club member has a FLS winch that he rebuilt that is just as strong. The time is about up for the FLS winch because the motors are not being made anymore so when suppliers stock are used up that will be it for the FLS.

jbrandon

Dec 24, 2007, 02:17 PM

Gliderguy, I responded to you comment in the for sale forum and sent you a PM also.

Brian, one of the reasons for the new motor is the FLS is gone. You can still get a rebuilt 3110 or 3115 from NAPA but good luck on the quality of the rebuild.

One thing that has always bothered me about contest where user winches are used is the lack of uniformity between the winches. One guy has ball bearings, the other has the motor tweaked by shifting the brush plate, others with different drum centers and on and on. Back when we all used off the shelf FLS it was different, and of course the planes were different also. And you know you will stand line for “that winch” which you feel gives you the best launch.

Over the past 5 years I have built many winches using the FLS but I always took it to a motor shop and had it what I call normalized. The 3110 motors I used had ball bearing installed and then the shop would adjust the brush to give the best power to amperage draw. This would always produce about 3.3HP where the off the shelf put out anywhere from 2.2 to 2.9 with no rime or reason.

When I approached Jim to help with the winch motor testing he informed me that they used 330# (#36) line and 500 feet to the turn around. I just could not believe they were getting very good launches from that set up.

I strung the winches with #36 and tested myself before joining Jim and Tim for the “official” test. I was flying a Spirit 100 poly and even with that airplane I was amazed with the launch even with the short line. Now I believe the short line powerful winch evens the field more than just about anything else. The launch becomes the technique, the skill is flying after you leave the line.

I build the “Brandon (http://www.theshope.net/)” winch (Winch2048) Jim was refereeing to and while they are strong they are not so powerful that they will cause any undo stress on a well built airframe. I built one with a 5.5HP motor and took it out and we could see very little difference and certainly not worth the extra $200 they cost.

I also think you are safer with a more powerful launch machine than one with lesser or marginal power. Tim launches a Gentle Lady off one of these machines with very good success.

And Jim, we have four Winch2048’s in our club!

schrederman

Dec 24, 2007, 02:18 PM

Shaper Dave

Dec 24, 2007, 02:34 PM

Here in Hawaii a few guys built winches with a 6 volt starter motor and use a 12 volt battery. These things have the JUICE. You can still use standard line.
These winches were great for launching our 4 meter ships. We use the ROG method for the scale ships and that winch would vault them off the ground. We have since gone to Aero Tow for the scale planes.

We should realize that the new generation models are made for F3J and not winch launching. For American thermal duration a smaller ship will match our club winches better.

Dave

BrianSmith

Dec 24, 2007, 03:43 PM

You sound very winch savy--But-- I can only smile at your very good launches with a 100 inch Spirit on #36 line.. :D I launch my 2M and Avas on 290 pound line and it is a launch is all I'll say about that. Very good.. Naaa. Brian

Gliderguy, I responded to you comment in the for sale forum and sent you a PM also.

Brian, one of the reasons for the new motor is the FLS is gone. You can still get a rebuilt 3110 or 3115 from NAPA but good luck on the quality of the rebuild.

One thing that has always bothered me about contest where user winches are used is the lack of uniformity between the winches. One guy has ball bearings, the other has the motor tweaked by shifting the brush plate, others with different drum centers and on and on. Back when we all used off the shelf FLS it was different, and of course the planes were different also. And you know you will stand line for “that winch” which you feel gives you the best launch.

Over the past 5 years I have built many winches using the FLS but I always took it to a motor shop and had it what I call normalized. The 3110 motors I used had ball bearing installed and then the shop would adjust the brush to give the best power to amperage draw. This would always produce about 3.3HP where the off the shelf put out anywhere from 2.2 to 2.9 with no rime or reason.

When I approached Jim to help with the winch motor testing he informed me that they used 330# (#36) line and 500 feet to the turn around. I just could not believe they were getting very good launches from that set up.

I strung the winches with #36 and tested myself before joining Jim and Tim for the “official” test. I was flying a Spirit 100 poly and even with that airplane I was amazed with the launch even with the short line. Now I believe the short line powerful winch evens the field more than just about anything else. The launch becomes the technique, the skill is flying after you leave the line.

I build the “Brandon (http://www.theshope.net/)” winch (Winch2048) Jim was refereeing to and while they are strong they are not so powerful that they will cause any undo stress on a well built airframe. I built one with a 5.5HP motor and took it out and we could see very little difference and certainly not worth the extra $200 they cost.

I also think you are safer with a more powerful launch machine than one with lesser or marginal power. Tim launches a Gentle Lady off one of these machines with very good success.

And Jim, we have four Winch2048’s in our club!

jfrickie

Dec 24, 2007, 05:39 PM

I've been one of the loudest-mouthed responders on RCSE. The point is that these competitions are not centered around the Pike Perfects or Onyx JWs (like mine). As long as guys are still showing up with Ava's, Oly IIs, even moldies we sold them 2 years ago... The contest launch equipment should be somewhere in the middle. 325# line is only going to pull the MAJORITY of models down. They won't be able to lift it because of smaller wing area and not as strong wings. That majority is who needs to be catered to. After a while, more is just more, and not necessarily better. If you are good enough, you'll get just as good a launch from a weaker winch and lighter line as from the huge power and line. We're all the way back to the gorilla winch mentality we were in back in the early 80s. Where does it end?

Jack
I launch my 2 meter Super-V and my 2 meter Organic on my winch with #36 line just as high as anything else. The weight of the line means nothing to me. Flying all day and not tying lines is what its all about. I have recently bought a AVA and a person in the club has been launching his AVA on the winches with no problems. A AVA can snap lighter line just as easily as a molded plane. If anyone would like to come and prove me wrong, come on out and bring your data loggers. We have use the Eagletrees,LOLO and all the others and it still boils down to technique. If your launch habits are bad,then you are not going to get the launch everyone else does that gets out and flys.You don't have to hammer the winch to get a high launch. At the T.N.T this year I never once abused their equipment and even in RES with a borrowed AVA I was launching as high as everyone else.

jfrickie

Dec 24, 2007, 05:45 PM

ChuckA

Dec 24, 2007, 06:13 PM

About 1974, one of our club member designed and built a base for our winches that could regulate the line tension. It was called a Tension Limiter and was published in the Jan/Feb issue of Sailplane. The Coffee Airfoilers used it for over10 years and it almost eliminated broken towlines. We finally stopped using it and went to heavier towlines when we began receiving too many complaints from contestants who couldn't zoom as high because the tension limiter was set to provide 25 pounds of pull at the tow ring. I kept the original tension limiter when the club quit using it. When I moved to my current house 20 years ago, I dumped the tension limiter in the woods behind my garage. After reading all the discussion on RCSE, this afternoon, I went out and dug the tension limiter out of the weeds and took some photographs. The tension limiter could be refurbished with a little sand blasting, painting but all that would be needed to make it operational would be to rewire it to fit modern winch peddle plugs and replace the switch.

jrgospod

Dec 24, 2007, 07:31 PM

superskeg

Dec 24, 2007, 07:48 PM

If you're going to launch the big F3J ships on American TD winches you'd better have a lot of air circulation around the brushes. Remove the cover over the brushes and maybe even add a fan. I'm working on some mounting ideas for external fans on my winches to keep the brush springs from annealing. This winch power thing is getting out of control.

schrederman

Dec 24, 2007, 10:07 PM

I agree that probably nothing will happen. The only way it will is for the AMA to regulate it, fearing safety issues, or adapt the F3B winch rules. It can be changed on a local basis if organizers weaken their winches. If that happens in a few places, the ultracompetitive crowd will not go back to those contests. If it happens everywhere, they'll grumble but the next set of designs will be designed for the new, softer winches.

Jack

Wazmo

Dec 24, 2007, 10:26 PM

What's the down side to removing the brush cover? Commutator gets dirty faster?

tension limiter was set to provide 25 pounds of pull at the tow ring
Did it do this by cycling a switch inline with the foot pedal? Did it tend to put more cycles on the solenoids than toggling the foot switch manually (pedally)?

ka7cse

Dec 24, 2007, 11:15 PM

At some point there is going to need to be a limit to wingspan for TD contests. Sure bring your 150"+ XC sailplane but be expected to launch on the same winches as the 2M and Oly II's.

I am all for a 100" limit Man on Man contest with matching hi-starts for launches!!!

superskeg

Dec 24, 2007, 11:16 PM

I would think airborne dust would be insignificant compared to brush dust but when the brushes melt a groove in the commutator and the springs go limp a little dust is the least of your problems. One downside of leaving the cover off would be the chance of fire in dry areas.

If someone wants to launch their F3J hand tow plane on your winch you might want to collect a deposit in advance to cover a possible rebuild.

ChuckA

Dec 24, 2007, 11:48 PM

What's the down side to removing the brush cover? Commutator gets dirty faster?

Did it do this by cycling a switch inline with the foot pedal? Did it tend to put more cycles on the solenoids than toggling the foot switch manually (pedally)?

Inertia of the winch and battery keeps the cycling rate down to about what a good pilot would use for launching larger models. Smaller models such ad the Oly did not generate enough pull to cycle the tension limiter. In the 10 years we used the tension limiter, we never noticed any additional problems with the solenoids. The tension limiter was also only used at contests so we had more time on the winch without the limiter. One other benefit from using the tension limiter was that we were able to use 120 pound twisted nylon line which had more stretch giving smoother launches. When we started using retrievers, we had to go to braided lined because the retriever untwisted the line.

I have been removing the brush cover from my winches since 1972 without problems but then our field is not an excessively dusty environment.

glderguy

Dec 25, 2007, 02:19 AM

I can launch my plane on the Rahms winch, just really stalls/near stalls winch til I go into the "2nd phase" of my launch where I reduce camber and speed up plane a bit in prep for the zoom....still pulling pretty hard just not as hard as initial settings. I just dont want to burn up the winch motor thats why Im thinking about a more powerful winch. I was also reccomended a company who specialized in "hopping up" FLS motors
for "bar stool" racers......I dont even know what a bar stool racer is but anyway I guess they can get more power out of the FLS. I dont expect any club to replace their winches Brian to accomodate the larger F3J birds. It does seem though we have gotten to another level with the new generation of big, super hard pulling F3J/Td ships.
If this trend continues I think its possible winch power may eventually follow.
Thanks,
Walter

glderguy

Dec 25, 2007, 02:24 AM

Oh yeah, Merry Christmas to all, have a safe and happy one!

Mr. Kite

Dec 25, 2007, 08:41 AM

Just remember that it is not who has the most powerfull winch but who can fly the best Win's ...May the Wind always be Good.....

Jurgen

Dec 25, 2007, 09:04 AM

ChuckA, thanks for posting the pics.
Did the ON-OFF switching of the winch-motor interfere directly with the "measuring" of the line tension? Thinking of inertia when start or stopping the winch, that might be seen by the limiter, making it think it is line tension that pulses?
Okay when the winch start or stop it will change line tension in real, that measuring is the real tension, but i try to refer to the "mechanical flicking" of the winch rotor+drum when it is accelerated or stopped, did that spoil the real line tension measure, maybe more or less?
Hope i could make my point :)
Jurgen.

PS: like you start a big grinder, it gives a serious twist in the accelerating phase, one must be prepared for that when powering ON. That kind of twist I'm referring too. A powerful winch must produce such a twist also, and asking if that is not ruining the real tension measuring.

ChuckA

Dec 25, 2007, 11:07 PM

The tension limiter pulses the winch about the same as a good pilot and the 600 meters of 120 pound test tow line absorbs a the shock of the pulsing so the pull at the tow ring is not noticeable. 300 pound test braided line might be noticeable but no worse than taping the foot peddle. We used the tension limiter for about 10 years and the only complaints were the reduced zooms and the pulsing of the tension limiter sometimes conflicted with the efforts of the pilot to tap the foot peddle. If the pilot was launching hard enough to continuously activate the tension limiter, then it was usually better to hold down the peddle and let the tension limiter do the tapping.

TLyttle

Dec 26, 2007, 01:43 AM

This is an old game. Want a winch that will haul everything except a VW to themal height? Try to Canadian Cannon from 1981: 6V Ford longshaft, 36V batteries, 3 sizes of line, first to build up line speed, second to maintain a compromise between strength and speed, third to allow for fastest launch speed. I generated a complete rules change for winches, but is still the most powerful winch seen. 525A is a lot of power, yet it was possible to stall it... with the right model.

Don't go down this road! It is not that expensive, but it takes all the sport out of it.

As much as people yell about heavy lines and low-power winches, it is NOT THE WINCH! It is the guy that thinks he should be able to cover his poor flying/launching skills by yowling about the crappy winches. If a guy busts a line, it is HIS FAULT, not the fault of the winch! Get it???

On the other side, you get the guy who folds the wings on an "overly powerful" winch: again HIS FAULT, not the fault of the winch!

Been there, done that, seen it all, and got tired of it. There is too much attention paid to the snivellers who blame everything except their own incompetence. Go ahead and flame me, but I really don't care. All this stuff converted me into a strictly sport flier...

Mr B....

Dec 26, 2007, 02:02 AM

My old music teacher taught us many years ago to *TAP, * TAP, * TAP, * TAP, * TAP, * TAP! * This also works when launching big wood airplanes and even my composite ships. Some of us that have been around the old guys got to see how it was done right way back when! In the past 10 years that I have been flying my 3M Marauder in contest I have had two line breaks. Both of them turned out to be a bad knot in the line. The only time I ever do a full power launch all the way up is in down wind conditions! Working thermals lower than winch height to get a lot of my wins. That is when flying hand launch comes into play.

There is no need to abuse equipment and even dead batteries! I have seen turn around pulled out of the ground, winches pulled down field and the best one I like is bad line on a killer winch! Most of the pro's know this already. Open your minds and look at what the pro's are doing. It's like fishing, learn to tie good knots and adapt to the conditions around you.

Merrill Brady
Downey, CA
AMA 276833
LSF 7247 Level V #116

Woody Class Winner 2007 Visalia, CA
RES Winner 2006 Thousand Oaks, CA (with a 2M)
Open Winner 2004 Covina, CA 3rd LSF V Win (Beat JW)
Open Class Winner 2003 Covina, CA 2nd LSF V Win
RES Winner 2002 Covina, CA 1st LSF V Win
RES Winner 2000 Pasadena, CA
RES Winner 1999 Visalia, CA

Jurgen

Dec 26, 2007, 03:11 AM

...again HIS FAULT, not the fault of the winch!....It always is. But it is not always guys trying to cover up their mistakes, maybe you've seen too many of them, that's too bad.

Everybody has this learning curve to deal with, and along that way abuse of plane or line(breaks) is part of the story. One must be honest enough to admit. I thought such a limitor could be a nice insurance for dummy acts, which in the end we all do sometimes unwilled.
J.

glderguy

Dec 26, 2007, 04:39 AM

Ive decided to take my FLS down to the bar stool racing guys and have them tweak it for max power for me. If Im still not satisfied w/it next step, for me,
will be to move up to the Brandon 2048 winch.
Wishing you all the best in launches regardless of what you choose to launch with,
Walter

schrederman

Dec 26, 2007, 09:01 AM

Amazing that at TNT, I was outlaunching many of the moldie flyers with a built-up model. Probably just luck, right? It's technique, not power. If it was only power, just nailing it and holding your foot on the pedal would be the best technique. We're back in the 80s again with the gorilla winch mentality. I have a couple of models that I am fearless with. I don't believe I have to worry about winches with the Onyx JW, and I haven't worried yet with my Houston Hawk. But come on... we're flying models. Where does the winch power race really take us? Will we be facing some policing from AMA? Current winches are dangerous enough. I'm in the process of building a FLS winch myself, so I am really pondering a lot of this. I believe I'm going to do the 3110 stock motor and just use jumper cables and my truck battery. I'm pretty sure #21 line will be fine. Why? Lower power and lighter line will force me to work on technique. The more I practice, the luckier I get!

Jack Womack

dharban

Dec 26, 2007, 10:33 AM

One of the issues that has not been discussed concerning the escalation of winch power/line sizes is the marked loss of elasticity which results when you go to 300+ pound test lines. As I have mentioned before, I flew off of one of the Injoy 4 hp winches with 300+ pound line. These are great winches and they will launch anything.

I am a middle of the pack pilot with a few thousand launches under my belt on everything from hi-starts to the new mega-winch. I still have misgivings when I go to a new place to fly to find out what they are using for a winch driver -- 12V FLS on 12V, 6V FLS on 12V, a new Injoy of some kind, whatever. In many places, my first launch in a contest is compromised by prudence until I know what kind of winch I am dealing with. Some contests allow practice launches some do not. I have experienced a wide range of performance from winches in different places.

The first launches I took off of the Injoy 4 hp were with a carbon light Supra in a slight downwind configuration. I am accustomed to loading the line up pretty well before tossing the plane on downwind launches. Even though I tested the winch pull without the plane before the first toss, the first launch was really scary. It was difficult, at least for me, to be subtle about loading this baby up. Touch the pedal and everything wants to happen pretty fast. It doesn't take much foot to load the winch up beyond my ability to hold the plane -- there is virtually no stretch in the line and the full might of the winch is delivered to the launcher right now. The launch becomes somewhat more of a timing issue.

The scary part for me came immediately after the release. The plane seemed to have more horizontal movement relative to up movement for the first foot or two -- something I attribute to the more direct transmission of more force to the plane in the initial instants of the launch. The result was a good whacking of the horizontal tail by my releasing hand. Forewarned, my second launch was clearly better, but it was still more problematic than similar launches I have taken on lighter winches. I never got used to this problem on downwind launches.

Upwind launches were more straightforward, after one makes a timing adjustment to account for the fact that a person of my strength and stature is not going to have the luxury of as much time for pretension. For me it was pretty much "bang and go"

I am in complete agreement with Jim Frickie that virtually any plane can be launched with this rig. There is no way in this lifetime, however, that this winch will cut anyone flying planes not designed for max stress any slack.

One thought for consideration is the possibility that the loss of elasticity in the launch line is more of a factor in creating launch problems for mere mortals than the power. It would be interesting to look at line breaks from the point of view of where on the line the breaks occured and how many of the launches occured as a result of sudden changes in the plane's direction. I suspect that most line breaks occur on the section of line most subject to wear on the ground and through the turnaround. I think I saw some reference to ASL experimenting with heavy weight line for the ground line and a somewhat lighter line for the section which is mostly in the air when the line is heavily tensioned. If the lighter line was 1/2 to 2/3 of the distance between the winch and the turnaround you might be able to recover some of the elasticity which protects both the wearing part of the line and the plane on the other end from sudden shocks. Returning a significant portion of the flying end of the line to a sane weight would reduce the penalty small and light planes play and might also negate the need for the added power people are seeking to lift the heavier lines.

It is worth asking why we are wanting more and more horsepower. If it is to lift the heavier and heavier lines we are using to tow our planes, a good designer would do well to clean the slate and look at all the factors that cause us to go to heavier lines. If the principal reason is to reduced line breaks we would do well to look at the whole system. Bigger lines not only mean more weight in the air, they mean more line speed as the line as spooled up -- more line speed means more air speed means more lift means more pull. Bigger lines mean less elasticity and less shock absorbing capability.

Backing up a bit, much progress toward reduced line breakage may come from getting winches and turnarounds off of the ground, paying more attention to turnaround design and looking at drum design. To the extent that the size of the line being wrapped on the drum is increased, line speed is being increased. Our winch drums were designed in the age of 100# line. The 300# stuff is much bigger and spools up much (speeds up) faster. It might be less costly to go with longer drums (within reason) than to horsepower up. In any event, going with bigger line on more powerful motors is compounding the forces which can be generated by planes designed for that configuration -- it may be a race against line breakage without end.

O.L. Adcock

Dec 26, 2007, 12:18 PM

I'm afraid my opinion falls more inline with Tlyttle and Jacks.....What kind and how powerful the winches are going to be at a contest is the least of my concerns and surely isn't going to be used as an excuse if I do poorly or blow up a plane. Considering that most new guys show up with planes requiring skill and finesse, and their planes generally aren't going to be a tolerent of mistakes, I'd rather see contests err to the whimpy side with the winches. If the experts with $2000 molded ships can't compete with 200# lines and whimpy winches, that's their problem and made poor choices in the ships they are flying....

Breaking 300# lines???? So some of these ships you could place them between chairs on their wing tips and park my 200# butt on the fuse??? I don't think so...Not saying they aren't breaking lines, it's wear and tear more then the planes.

As long as everyone is flying off the same equipment it doesn't matter if it's a hi-start from a competition standpoint. We're not going to remove the launching variable until we start using a static drop from a tethered balloon. :)...O.L.

superskeg

Dec 26, 2007, 04:55 PM

I think this (attached, I think) might be the winch you were referring to. I took this at the 1981 F3B World Championship. Other winches were also impressive, I think the Mexico team winch used a flywheel. It was very fun to watch but not much thermaling that I remember, just winch to the sky then dive for speed and distance, not my cup of tea. Gliding as opposed to soaring. What's the difference? I've heard a lot of discussion of that issue over the years and the best explanation I've heard is gliders (gliding) descend after release like WWII troop gliders, sailplanes (soaring) gain altitude. I like soaring (sailplanes). Maybe it's time to bifurcate into a "glider" class with unlimited winching and a soaring class with limited launch and the emphasis is on thermaling.

This is an old game. Want a winch that will haul everything except a VW to themal height? Try to Canadian Cannon from 1981: 6V Ford longshaft, 36V batteries, 3 sizes of line, first to build up line speed, second to maintain a compromise between strength and speed, third to allow for fastest launch speed. I generated a complete rules change for winches, but is still the most powerful winch seen. 525A is a lot of power, yet it was possible to stall it... with the right model.

Don't go down this road! It is not that expensive, but it takes all the sport out of it.

As much as people yell about heavy lines and low-power winches, it is NOT THE WINCH! It is the guy that thinks he should be able to cover his poor flying/launching skills by yowling about the crappy winches. If a guy busts a line, it is HIS FAULT, not the fault of the winch! Get it???

On the other side, you get the guy who folds the wings on an "overly powerful" winch: again HIS FAULT, not the fault of the winch!

Been there, done that, seen it all, and got tired of it. There is too much attention paid to the snivellers who blame everything except their own incompetence. Go ahead and flame me, but I really don't care. All this stuff converted me into a strictly sport flier...

tewatson

Dec 26, 2007, 05:13 PM

F3B is all about soaring, and there is a 10 minute duration task. Not exactly "gliding".

You guys are going the wrong way with this winch power thing. I have two words for you: FAI winches.

Tom

BrianSmith

Dec 26, 2007, 05:41 PM

Some one tell us again what an FAI winch is? Brian

F3B is all about soaring, and there is a 10 minute duration task. Not exactly "gliding".

You guys are going the wrong way with this winch power thing. I have two words for you: FAI winches.

Tom

OVSS Boss

Dec 26, 2007, 05:50 PM

Tom is right, but I also know that there is a limit on what folks can spend, so...

One way to limit the power of the everyday club winch is to use 2" diameter drums and have absolutely no extra line on the drum in conjunction with 200# line. Now, the 200# line is great stuff as long as your field is not hard on winch line. Dayton has used this set up for a long time and it is a more median answer to launching but the big boys launches were the highest there too.

Now, being the Event Director of the Soaring Nats, we use 290# line from Memphis and so will the Masters' contest in September for a reason, and that is just what I mentioned earlier. Line wear at Muncie is a real issue, particularly when going south and southwest, which is the majority of launches there. When you stand on the south edge of the 600x600 soaring field, and facing the south, you have a bit of a hump that runs east to west about 200 feet out and all the winchlines (12) will run over it. This hump really eats the line over time and 200# line we think would really take a beating on this topography. Some will ask, why not move the winches, but with all the logistics that are fixed, this really is not an option.

Talking today with a good soaring friend, he made a comment that really hit home, this may not be a contestant/airframe problem but a CD problem, and he may be right. Lets face facts, broken line is the bain of every CD, no matter what the venue and format. And that, or maybe a combination of a couple things, makes many CD's just say yes to the heavy line and go on. That may not be the answer we are thinking about, but I think it contributes to the issue too.

There are lots a ways to make mods and change winch set ups to make launches more middle of the road, but the bottom line is, the smart guys with correctly set up ships will still launch the highest. But, if doing some adjusting can even make a small preceptable difference and make more fliers, more comfortable, and come out and fly the contest, all the better.

Marc

O.L. Adcock

Dec 26, 2007, 05:59 PM

Good points Marc, even 300# line will start breaking after a little wear and tear...O.L.

BrianSmith

Dec 26, 2007, 06:21 PM

I wonder about a couple rollers on the ground for the line to ride on.. When I lived in Ohio there was a rise we launched over. It tore the line up fast. I found a thing from a machine shop throw away and used that. It would have to be cheap simple and very easy to produce, but if the Nats has a ground problem, maybe it would be something to consider. Brian Smith

PS there was never any intention in my mind (as a fellow suggested to me) to try to keep the best flyers with the best ships from winning as that will "NEVER" happen.

Tom is right, but I also know that there is a limit on what folks can spend, so...

One way to limit the power of the everyday club winch is to use 2" diameter drums and have absolutely no extra line on the drum in conjunction with 200# line. Now, the 200# line is great stuff as long as your field is not hard on winch line. Dayton has used this set up for a long time and it is a more median answer to launching but the big boys launches were the highest there too.

Now, being the Event Director of the Soaring Nats, we use 290# line from Memphis and so will the Masters' contest in September for a reason, and that is just what I mentioned earlier. Line wear at Muncie is a real issue, particularly when going south and southwest, which is the majority of launches there. When you stand on the south edge of the 600x600 soaring field, and facing the south, you have a bit of a hump that runs east to west about 200 feet out and all the winchlines (12) will run over it. This hump really eats the line over time and 200# line we think would really take a beating on this topography. Some will ask, why not move the winches, but with all the logistics that are fixed, this really is not an option.

Talking today with a good soaring friend, he made a comment that really hit home, this may not be a contestant/airframe problem but a CD problem, and he may be right. Lets face facts, broken line is the bain of every CD, no matter what the venue and format. And that, or maybe a combination of a couple things, makes many CD's just say yes to the heavy line and go on. That may not be the answer we are thinking about, but I think it contributes to the issue too.

There are lots a ways to make mods and change winch set ups to make launches more middle of the road, but the bottom line is, the smart guys with correctly set up ships will still launch the highest. But, if doing some adjusting can even make a small preceptable difference and make more fliers, more comfortable, and come out and fly the contest, all the better.

Marc

tewatson

Dec 26, 2007, 06:22 PM

Going on memory here...but the basic premise is launch power limitation enforced through minimum circuit resistance (23 milliohms winch and battery measured as a unit, I believe), maximum battery size of 500CCA, no chargers connected during use, plus things like minimum drum width of 200mm, use of a one-way drum bearing, no auxiliary cooling (fins and junk), etc. These winches are based on small Bosch 1.1Kw starter motors. No retrievers are used. Quite a bit weaker than your average AMA mongo winch, yet properly used will launch planes like nothing you've ever seen.

I love mine.

Tom

Some one tell us again what an FAI winch is?

BrianSmith

Dec 26, 2007, 06:28 PM

Are you using mono? Brian

Going on memory here...but the basic premise is launch power limitation enforced through minimum circuit resistance (23 milliohms winch and battery measured as a unit, I believe), maximum battery size of 500CCA, no chargers connected during use, plus things like minimum drum width of 200mm, use of a one-way drum bearing, no auxiliary cooling (fins and junk), etc. These winches are based on small Bosch 1.1Kw starter motors. No retrievers are used. Quite a bit weaker than your average AMA mongo winch, yet properly used will launch planes like nothing you've ever seen.

I love mine.

Tom

glderguy

Dec 26, 2007, 07:24 PM

Im pretty sure Tom uses mono Brian as he is into F3B. The big issue with my winch now that Ive worked on launch set up more is even in a small amount of wind,once I let off pedal and start tapping, the winch will either simply not start again(stalled completely) or start so slowly in a close to stalled completely mode, If I dont go out of launch mode/put the nose down, etc we have issues(pop off, veering, etc). I can and do launch w/less aggressive launch mode and get a pretty darn good launch. I just want to exploit that last little bit I know is available.
Walter

ChuckA

Dec 26, 2007, 07:57 PM

schrederman

Dec 26, 2007, 08:49 PM

I don't think I've read anything that wants to limit what folks can do at launch, or regulate who's going to launch the highest. As stated, the guys that launch correctly will get the most altitude, even on a high start. Those lucky guys that seem to get luckier the more they practice. :p As a CD, I hate launch problems/line breaks just like the next guy. When I entered into this fray, I was opposing the 300# line that we've gone to. In my opinion, that practice caters to the guy with the 140"+ moldie and everyone else is at a disadvantage. To qualify that, I have 2 140"+ models that will handle it fine. :D I will use whatever is available and not stop going to competitions because it's being used. I won't stay home if I find out someone's trying to limit winch power and lighten lines, either. I'm not sure how a torque limiter works, but I honestly believe 120 pounds is plenty of pull to launch just about anything. Maybe it won't give my JW another 400' after ping, but it'll still pull the wings off some stuff out there. So again I say, we're back into the gorilla winch mentality. Again I ask, where does it end? I'm still of the opinion that if we limit the line strength to 180 or 200, make a contestant fly his line breaks - qualified by a winchmaster or the CD in the event that he wasn't at fault - and the winches won't have to be modified. The HP race will die, and we won't really be catering to anyone. I know for sure I can get great launches on 180# line, because I know how.

What's wrong with the above picture? Subjectivity... If the winchmaster is a bud, is he going to give me a break? Is the CD going to play favorites? I know I've pi$$ed more than one guy off when he thought we were "friends," but I had other friends flying the same contest. :eek: So for this to work, it would have to be adopted across the US and taken very seriously. I know up front that it ain't gonna happen... Sorry to say that I don't have that much faith in my fellow man when competitiveness comes into play. :rolleyes:

Bring it on... I'll launch on what's provided... but I still think it's dumb to use 300# line in most scenarios. I get to think what I want... :p

Jack Womack

BrianSmith

Dec 26, 2007, 09:04 PM

I like your thinkin' and attitude. :D Brian

I don't think I've read anything that wants to limit what folks can do at launch, or regulate who's going to launch the highest. As stated, the guys that launch correctly will get the most altitude, even on a high start. Those lucky guys that seem to get luckier the more they practice. :p As a CD, I hate launch problems/line breaks just like the next guy. When I entered into this fray, I was opposing the 300# line that we've gone to. In my opinion, that practice caters to the guy with the 140"+ moldie and everyone else is at a disadvantage. To qualify that, I have 2 140"+ models that will handle it fine. :D I will use whatever is available and not stop going to competitions because it's being used. I won't stay home if I find out someone's trying to limit winch power and lighten lines, either. I'm not sure how a torque limiter works, but I honestly believe 120 pounds is plenty of pull to launch just about anything. Maybe it won't give my JW another 400' after ping, but it'll still pull the wings off some stuff out there. So again I say, we're back into the gorilla winch mentality. Again I ask, where does it end? I'm still of the opinion that if we limit the line strength to 180 or 200, make a contestant fly his line breaks - qualified by a winchmaster or the CD in the event that he wasn't at fault - and the winches won't have to be modified. The HP race will die, and we won't really be catering to anyone. I know for sure I can get great launches on 180# line, because I know how.

What's wrong with the above picture? Subjectivity... If the winchmaster is a bud, is he going to give me a break? Is the CD going to play favorites? I know I've pi$$ed more than one guy off when he thought we were "friends," but I had other friends flying the same contest. :eek: So for this to work, it would have to be adopted across the US and taken very seriously. I know up front that it ain't gonna happen... Sorry to say that I don't have that much faith in my fellow man when competitiveness comes into play. :rolleyes:

Bring it on... I'll launch on what's provided... but I still think it's dumb to use 300# line in most scenarios. I get to think what I want... :p

Jack Womack

TLyttle

Dec 26, 2007, 10:02 PM

You're right, Jack. Launch on what is provided, and everyone is happy (or should be!), even if they provide highstarts.

When I first got into sailplanes, all we had was highstarts, and the Europeans were hand-towing... Now there's a thought: if these guys were forced to supply their own hand-tower, that would surely change the face of the sport now, wouldn't it? ;-)

tewatson

Dec 26, 2007, 11:32 PM

No, I'd rather have standardized equipment than some Rube Goldberg contraption that's going to be implemented differently on every winch and malfunction every other launch.

Tom

Sure looks like a lot of work to control launches. It seems a lot simpler and cheaper to regulate the pull at the tow ring via a torque limiter which could be external to the winch. That way, almost any existing winch could be used.

ka7cse

Dec 27, 2007, 12:22 AM

I'm getting my hand towers from MLB and the WWE!!!! You go find your own....

D_Ryan

Dec 27, 2007, 07:10 AM

TLyttle said: "if these guys were forced to supply their own hand-tower, that would surely change the face of the sport now, wouldn't it? ;-)"

The irony is that a two-man tow on monofilament is likely stronger than just about any FLS winch or F3B winch. The latest molded sailplanes with their increased span are all born of F3J, and it is these designs that now have everyone noodling over how to extract more power from their winches (effectively trying to make them the equivalent of a two-man tow). It has changed the sport, and those changes are what have fed this thread.

F3B molded sailplanes, designed for the F3B task (and therefore the FAI-spec F3B winch) are not "growing" in the same way F3J (and to an extent US TD) models are. The F3B winch is limited in output, and so the sailplane designers need to optimize the model to be part of that system...

The comments about getting the biggest,strongest towmen you can find is already the reality to some extent today.

Jurgen

Dec 27, 2007, 07:34 AM

And why not using a mule (or 2)?
The dung probably would be annoying.
J.

schrederman

Dec 27, 2007, 08:53 AM

In a perfect world, Tom is right... Standardized equipment... give me standardized equipment. In my opinion, that's best for everyone. Experienced guys would be practicing on winches that are going to pretty well match what's going to be present at competitions. Beginners will get used to using winches quicker because they'll know what to expect when they step up. If I'm flying a 100" Bantam in RES and a 140"+ moldie, I'll know just how both will launch in the conditions I'm facing. It takes one variable out of the launch equasion. As a CD and as a competitor, I think we could solve a few problems... but of course, new ones would crop up. They always do... :eek:

Jack

mlachow

Dec 27, 2007, 09:26 AM

The idea is to limit power. Battery size is regulated using CCA. This regulates the internal resistance of the battery. So it prevents someone from going out and getting high-tech batteries. Only pain is that the battery is sized more for euro cars than for US cars. Readily available batteries you buy around here are designed for the american attidude of more is better, so get your 1000CCA battery....

Originally battery and winch motor resistance were specified separately and a pain to measure. Now the current for the entire circuit is measured with the winch motor locked. Not exactly a realistic measurement of winch power, but since the motor has to be a car starter motor, there are very few choices in car motors that are close to meeting the specs. The Bosch 1.1Kw motor was used in a lot of cars, but you have to watch you don't get the 1.0Kw or 1.2Kw version. Some older Lucas motors also were slightly closer to the exact spec. If you were allowed to build motors, there would probably be more power available.

Tom mentions one-way bearings. Basically the idea there is to prevent line from being pulled off the drum, so kiting is not possible. A one-way bearing is just one way of accomplishing this. The bearing does add a bit of cost to the winch. One capable of dealing with the tension put into the line costs between $75-150 depending on your source. Plus you have to come up with a way to release the bearing to pull the line back.

Line evolved into monofilament since it's possible to store some energy in the line for the zoom. So in competition, selecting the right combination of line to minimize line drag and optimize the stretch and return of energy stored in the line adds some complexity. F3j kind of minimized that cost because it has a huge penalty for relaunches. F3b has the extra time window and relaunches are part of the competition strategy.

So a F3b winch set up with braided line will be a lot less power. Throw on a retriever and you really tame down launches.

I do all my practice flying and model setup on F3b winches. I'll tone things down a little if it's braided line with a penalty for pop-offs, but usually I just avoid abusing the line on braided winches since there is so much power available and I'd prefer to have more rounds in the contest. East coast contests try to get in as many rounds as they can during the day. Fortunately we don't fly 2M contests any more. Those were small and with a half hour to get everyone's flight in, some of the contests were thermal death marches since you were constantly flying or timing all day.

.... owner of 3 F3b winches .... I always set up at least two.

Going on memory here...but the basic premise is launch power limitation enforced through minimum circuit resistance (23 milliohms winch and battery measured as a unit, I believe), maximum battery size of 500CCA, no chargers connected during use, plus things like minimum drum width of 200mm, use of a one-way drum bearing, no auxiliary cooling (fins and junk), etc. These winches are based on small Bosch 1.1Kw starter motors. No retrievers are used. Quite a bit weaker than your average AMA mongo winch, yet properly used will launch planes like nothing you've ever seen.

I love mine.

Tom

glderguy

Dec 27, 2007, 12:43 PM

Planes are getting bigger, wings stiffer, pulling waaay harder on launch now. Thought Ive read somewhere comments like "wing span is my friend, etc, etc."
So lets limit winch power even more, that way designs will eventually go back to smaller, easier to launch planes?????? Didnt I read that somewhere as well? Ive been to many events before RES planes like the AVA, etc, were around. They had a weaker winch especially for the woodie types if thats what one felt comfortable launching on. Why not reverse that and have one winch of say the injoy high power type for those who prefer it. From all Ive read it wont give a person one iotta of a launch advantage but it will allow them to launch as hard as they want w/less worry of line breaks, etc. that would be better than going to some type of "rube goldberg" tension device, far cheaper than going to expensive mono equipped F3B winches.
Walter

-LSF level 1... 30 years running
-Last Place, Unlimited, 1998 Spring Fling
-Voted "most likely to be incarcerated" Valley High 1966
-1st Place, Budwieser "Tall Boy" Shotgunning Championships, 1967, NTSU

S-1-11B

Dec 27, 2007, 03:59 PM

I was reading this discussion and thinking about Naval carrier launches. As the catapult builds pressure, a device on the aft part of the nose gear gives way at a certain tension dialed in for a given aircraft type and weight, causing the launch.

Isn't what we really are after is a consistent, maximum tension and line speed for "fair" launches? F3B rules govern this by regulation of the batteries, drums, resisters and motors. Essentially governing the input of power into launch by controling the entire launch system.

Wouldn't it be cool if a little tension limiter device was between the line and chute calibrated to give way at a certain tension. Same size and a quick disconnect feature like those on our key chains. Pull too hard and it pops. Grab the chute and the end of the line and reconnect for the next launch. CDs can figure out the rules for a relaunch if appropriate. Calibrate at the contest with a fish scale and easily retrofitable to any existing winch. Maybe even different max tensions for Unlimited, RES and NOS?

Run a line tough enough for the conditions, winches/batteries as powerful (or weak) as you want. But... bigger planes could only pull has hard as smaller ones for a given class.

Thoughts?

schrederman

Dec 27, 2007, 05:56 PM

That's been covered with weak links. We're primarily looking for a way to go back to lighter lines so smaller models can launch without having to carry 300# line. The F3J ships we use for TD in America have gotten so large that the contest organizers are going to bigger line so they're not having to repair the lines so often. Stick a 2-meter ship or a 25 oz, 100" RES plane on there with a retriever line, and the 200' resulting launch... if that high... is a bit disheartening. The smaller stuff just doesn't have the wing area to carry that load. With that, we're catering to the 4 meter guys and basically telling everyone else to "endeavor to persevere"... (watched Outlaw Josey Wales last night... sorry!) To be fair, we're catering to the competition organizors, but the advantage to the 140"+ gang (of which I'm a member) is a resulting end.

Jack

jrgospod

Dec 27, 2007, 06:01 PM

Wouldn't it be cool if a little tension limiter device was between the line and chute calibrated to give way at a certain tension. Same size and a quick disconnect feature like those on our key chains. Pull too hard and it pops. Grab the chute and the end of the line and reconnect for the next launch. CDs can figure out the rules for a relaunch if appropriate. Calibrate at the contest with a fish scale and easily retrofitable to any existing winch. Maybe even different max tensions for Unlimited, RES and NOS?

Run a line tough enough for the conditions, winches/batteries as powerful (or weak) as you want. But... bigger planes could only pull has hard as smaller ones for a given class.

Thoughts?

I love Out-Of-The-Box ideas/thinking. This is an idea that could work and not cost much to retrofit. Great input!

John

bobby legue

Dec 27, 2007, 06:10 PM

To add to Jacks comments - we are closing the door to new competitors by equiptment that cannot support the newbies. Unless you can jump in at 2 grand or so you can not be competitive. So why try. I personally dont resent the big dollar ships. But I do regret the passing of the days when you could fly a home built and still have a chance to be competitive. I remember the club contest when my 12 year old son beat the snot out of the two hundred dollar E 205 planes. That my friends was what competing was all about.
I thought then that the growth of pilots for gliding was going to suffer. And it has. Look around your club and tell me how many children are flying with you. Ill guess that the ratio is quite small. Im saddened that winning has become more important than competing.
Ill continue to teach young pilots to build and fly.
I, like others will try to save the hobby that has given me so much pleasure.
Will you?
Bob

schrederman

Dec 27, 2007, 06:44 PM

Gliderguy... only the top eschelon of models is getting larger, and pulling harder. That's the point that seems to be missed. I have 2 of those, and 5 others that I like to fly in competition. The 2 I can launch on 300# line and not lose much. I am pretty certain that with technique, I can launch them as high with 180# line. For the 5 others, unless someone can change the laws of physics, I can't use better techniques to get the much lower Rn and wing area to carry the weight and drag of that rope.

Sorry to belabor this but we'll come to some consensus, someday... maybe...

Looking forward to SWC!

Jack

O.L. Adcock

Dec 27, 2007, 07:03 PM

Jack, Is the problem the line size or is it the desire to launch higher using brute power???

Again I've never given any thought to the "line size" when I step up to a winch....What has crossed my mind is wondering if the thing is so powerful it'll fold a wing. That has got to be a huge deterrent to newbies. Many can barely afford the $200 ships they have let alone risk blowing it up on a mongo winch. Having been a CD, I know what kind of headache line breaks are but that's been a problem long before 140"+ molded ships and takes nothing more then prudent replacement of the lines to cure. I used to launch a 5 meter, 16 pound scale ASW 20, ROG, on a club winch with 200# line no problem. The winch would moan and grone/bog down a bit but it'd get r done. :) A 5 pound 140+ moldie shouldn't an issue.

I think it's really much a do about nothing...Step up to the winch and do it. Everyones flying off the same ones. If a person is that concerned about ripping a wing, nothing says you can't put a 20# test pig tail between your plane and the line. Bobby, "regret the passing of the days when you could fly a home built and still have a chance to be competitive.", Those days aren't gone, it's just that many aren't willing to do what's necessary to give them a run for their money....You either have to pay the piper in $$$ or time, my time is cheap! :).....O.L.

Robglover

Dec 27, 2007, 07:08 PM

This may well be much ado about nothing. We are seeing 1 or maybe 2 manufacturers that are proposing to build longer span planes than the rest of the pack. Has anybody actually received one of the new planes yet? It remains to be seen whether or not there will be any competetive advantage realized by larger models, or if many of them will actually show up on the field, or if they will in fact break a line.

Longer span may well be more efficient, easier to see, and pull harder on launch. If you break a couple lines around here you'll probably get to fly out some rounds from a low launch as well. It may also be harder to land precisely. Remains to be seen.

Meanwhile, I'd love to see everybody show up with their own pair of F3B legal winches, retreive the old fashioned way, and fly F3J tasks. Tell me where to sign up.

jrgospod

Dec 27, 2007, 07:09 PM

Jack,

Maybe if the rope has no function except to add to the pull/weight on the “weak link” it will fall out of favor.
John

P.S. IT=Rope

superskeg

Dec 27, 2007, 07:46 PM

Here's a picture of the coolest winch that I've encountered to date taken in Atwater, CA circa 1980ish. It was powered by a motorcycle starter with about a 4:1 timing belt reduction. It launched everything from OlyIIs to a Sailaire with ease and lasted all day in a 20+ contestant meet. I think something similar to this should be the core of a new "Simple Soaring Class". Form the class around the winch.

That's been covered with weak links. We're primarily looking for a way to go back to lighter lines so smaller models can launch without having to carry 300# line. The F3J ships we use for TD in America have gotten so large that the contest organizers are going to bigger line so they're not having to repair the lines so often. Stick a 2-meter ship or a 25 oz, 100" RES plane on there with a retriever line, and the 200' resulting launch... if that high... is a bit disheartening. The smaller stuff just doesn't have the wing area to carry that load. With that, we're catering to the 4 meter guys and basically telling everyone else to "endeavor to persevere"... (watched Outlaw Josey Wales last night... sorry!) To be fair, we're catering to the competition organizors, but the advantage to the 140"+ gang (of which I'm a member) is a resulting end.

Jack

rdwoebke

Dec 27, 2007, 07:53 PM

I think it's really much a do about nothing...Step up to the winch and do it. Everyones flying off the same ones. If a person is that concerned about ripping a wing, nothing says you can't put a 20# test pig tail between your plane and the line.

OL,

I think part of the issue might be that the 300 pound line is very heavy compared to the lighter stuff, and these newbies that you mention in the paragraph above with the $200 planes often have 2 meter planes and their lower wing area makes it difficult for the plane to lift the heavy winch line. The existence of a weak link might help save a wing, but tapping should help with that too. The discouraging part to the new pilots is the 200 foot launches they get compared to the 600 foot launches by the Sharons, Pikes, Supras, Icons, etc.

That is one reason I like to suggest that new pilots that are looking for ships look at used 3 meter planes or folks looking to build woodies an excellent option is the 115 inch Marauder kit.

Ryan

O.L. Adcock

Dec 27, 2007, 08:12 PM

I understand that Ryan, but they shouldn't be competeing in the same "class" either. The point I was trying to make is it seems those using 300# lines are doing it more so to save money and/or laziness. 2 meters will launch lower no matter what size line is used, just the nature of the beast. If the planes are getting so big they get line breaks on quality/new line, CD's can fix that problem, you bust a line, you fly it........O.L.

jrgospod

Dec 27, 2007, 08:33 PM

Thanks Chuck for the effort. That is a real interesting setup. I hope we can come up with a consensus on how to end the killer launch/pull wars. As I said on RCSE “I do feel that this RCSE thread is all just talk and next build season this topic will again elicit heavy traffic on RCSE without any changes.”.

John

Notice how the thread on RCSE is ending. Like I said. We will be here discussing this next year with no change except that more clubs will be using #300(or +) line.

John

schrederman

Dec 27, 2007, 08:40 PM

It's not the wingspan... It's the line weight... I'm not waiting for longer spans. I don't have to wait fro 300# line... it's here already. As stated, when I go to compete, whatever they're using is OK. If they're using the heavy stuff, I'll fly a Hawk in RES with no fear. I'll fly my JW in open. If they're using 200# line, I may fly the Yardbird in RES, even though 300 probably wouldn't bother it, either. Smaller than 200 or high start... The Bantam comes out. I'll still fly the JW even on a high start. I won't fly the Bantam on 300# line.

You bust a line, you fly it out... that's what I've been saying all along.

I wonder where my winch parts are... I won't be discussing it anymore, because as John said, it's here and from some of the comments, I see it ain't leavin'. Stepping politely away from this dead horse, I have now put down the stick. :D

Jack

rdwoebke

Dec 27, 2007, 08:54 PM

Notice how the thread on RCSE is ending. Like I said. We will be here discussing this next year with no change

Welcome to the internets... :-)

Seriously, this is a somewhat complicated issue compounded by regional/terrain differences.

I understand that Ryan, but they shouldn't be competeing in the same "class" either. The point I was trying to make is it seems those using 300# lines are doing it more so to save money and/or laziness. 2 meters will launch lower no matter what size line is used, just the nature of the beast.

Perhaps, but, these days there are not "other classes"... John's club holds 2 mete, but not many do. Others have observed that 15 years ago, pilots could launch to a reasonble approximation of the altitude of the 3 meter ships with 2 meter ships. 10 years ago Ray Hayes would show up at contests with his full house 2 meter Osprey and be a serious threat to win.

I'm not saying the heavy line is good or bad. I ordered some 250 pound stuff for my winch recently. I'm just saying there are issues out there and if we all discuss them at least we can be aware of the issues. There is probably not just one solution.

Ryan

TLyttle

Dec 27, 2007, 09:45 PM

rdwoebke

Dec 27, 2007, 09:59 PM

If you guys are so hot on competition, just keep complaining and soon there will be no one willing to take the abuse. I have seen that happen, so please don't tell me that it is their JOB to put on these events! They are volunteers, and have no obligation to listen to you or anyone else whine about being supplied with the"wrong' equipment!!

Yikes, Mr. Lyttle.... I don't think anyone here is being beligerent... Just having some friendly discussion....

:eek:

But, once again, like I said... Welcome to the interweb! ;)

Ryan

dharban

Dec 27, 2007, 10:29 PM

How much power do we want and how heavy are we willing to go? And what will moving toward the so called ultimate uber winch do to airplane design? And finally, how much of the existing inventory of planes will be either destroyed or rendered (practically) unusable? That's what we are talking about here.

Is this about developing launch systems that are user friendly for a wide variety of pilots and planes, or contest friendly winches which don't eat up a huge amount of contest time by eating lines -- or is it about satisfying the appetites of an increasingly small base of flyers who have the wallets, the egos and the skills to smoke $2000 or more worth of plane into the stratosphere? Ours does not seem to me to be a sport which will benefit from further evolution which increase the level of difficulty for the new guy or the average schmuck who has to use the same equipment for a plain old Saturday flying session. There are a lot more guys that don't contest fly than there are that do. How much sense does it make to intentionally continue widen the gulf between those of us who can and will launch anything off of any device and those who want to share an experience somewhere between launching a Gentle Lady off of a hi-start and launching a Sharon off the back of a fuel dragster?

If 300# and 4 horsepower is good, why not 450# and 6 horsepower? At some point, a little common sense might be useful.

I mentioned earlier in one of these winch threads the winch setup which was used at this year's Nats. 12 winches for 10 launching positions for MOM (which is especially sensitive to the impacts of line breaks). Incredible uniformity from winch to winch. Incredible reliability (not just from line breaks, but from other kinds of failures.) Launching everything from NOS, 2 Meter, RES and Open. Some guys were even competitive (at least in some rounds) launching AVA's in open class. I don't know what the gear was or even the line size. (If it was 300#, it didn't seem to me to be a significant hindrance to the competitors). What I do know, was that even without a practice launch, I was able to step up, stand on the pedal and toss the plane from launch #1 without any particular funny stuff happening. And this was true for every launch on every winch. This is certainly not true for some of the venues I have attended. Some had winches that wanted to rip the plane apart, some had a hard time getting the plane up even with a full pedal and many were afflicted with a wide range of individual winch performance on the same launch line.

Whatever these guys did, it should be taken as the gold standard for setting up winches for competition. There was no need for more power than was available, nor larger line (whatever the size).

How much power do we need? How big of a line? No bigger than the system which was used at the nats this year. Maybe this should be the starting point for a rational discussion of how to launch planes at a contest.

O.L. Adcock

Dec 27, 2007, 10:32 PM

I agree Ryan, I'd have a blast flying with anyone here, no matter the planes or the equipment. Your buddy that was a threat using a 2 meter ship against open ships, you bet, I took some 1st place trophies away from Torrey Pines flying a 2 meter against open ships...Never once did the line size or winch power cross my mind. I don't agree with going up in line size to cater to the "big" planes simply cause it's not necessary. If they are the pilots they think they are, they can adapt better then the youngsters can. Flying contests are a series of gambles....How far can I go down wind and make it back, I wonder if there's any lift a half mile that way where no one else is flying, darn I thought that power line was lower! :) How aggressive we get on tow is part of that gamble...at least it used to be...it should be......If I get on it too much and bust a line (or a wing) when the person before me and after me did not....that's my fault and should pay for it by flying it out. Many contests have like a 1 pop off grace, that's good cause if you do it again you know you have to fly it. That could be done with line breaks too and use a reasonable line strength so it doesn't handicap the lighter planes more then they are already. I launch my 140"/5# ships off standard hi-starts all the time and catch plenty of lift. The last thing that should be a concern is the winches. Given the choice, I'd personally rather have them on the weak side compared to the hot side, a lot less stress on everything...:).....Me included....O.L.

schrederman

Dec 27, 2007, 10:35 PM

Mr. Lyttle... again you, like many others, missed the point. It ain't about ME! I am one of those volunteers you spoke of. It's about knocking another chunk out of the cornerstone that's holding up soaring... the new guys... the ones that don't compete, yet... the ones that won't compete again because someone or something left a bad taste... The decline is due to catering to the exclusive little piece of this group, as a whole, that reside at the top of most competitions. If you think it ain't so, you haven't been to too many contests lately. Soaring declined in the late '70 due to too many new rules for the guys that just have to win. I left when skegs became the norm, because the challenge went away. I was 4th at TNT this year without a skeg. 47 contestants is down from recent years. I haven't seen a contestant list for SWC yet, but I'm hearing it won't be as big either.

How many TD models are there in the US? What percentage of them are F3J type that are less than 2 years old? I'd be willing to bet the latter number is rather small, yet they are the ones coming out to fly in competition... where's everyone else? They aren't interested.

Whining? No way... as I said, my Onyx JW, my Hawk, my Yardbird, my Dragonfly Strong... all have the wing strength necessary to bust 300# line, so bring it if you have it. I can step up and hold the pedal down solid and not flinch. It ain't about ME. The point is it ain't supposed to be about any one person or small group within soaring, but we've made it so. Granted, competition drives development, and development is good for soaring. We can compete and develop without running off the weekend warriors.

I thought I saw that horse move... and dang if I didn't hit him again!

Seriously, no bleigerance here. I just want everyone to think about where we're going with this. I'm probably all wet... I usually am. As posted earlier, I expect nothing will happen. We'll be using 300# line for years to come... except in Clovis...

Jack

jrgospod

Dec 27, 2007, 10:40 PM

I'm with O.L. here: just step up to the winch an Do It. If the winch/line/whatever isn't what you are "used to" or some other excuse, EVERYONE is using the same equipment!!! If you brought the "wrong airplane", that's too bad, but what it does is takes a load off the CD, and the contest organisers. If you guys are so hot on competition, just keep complaining and soon there will be no one willing to take the abuse. I have seen that happen, so please don't tell me that it is their JOB to put on these events! They are volunteers, and have no obligation to listen to you or anyone else whine about being supplied with the"wrong' equipment!!

Get a grip, guys, just go to the contest and enjoy the experience, regardless of whether it suits your model or not.

TLyttle I think you missed the point. The only ones in our club that are competing any more are the $800.00 - $2000.00+ per plane pilots that want the rope so they don’t have to fly from the same launch height as the majority of the club pilots do. They want an edge of 2-300ft on the launch so they can out search and LD the other pilots. Not what I call soaring or fair competition. I gave up the club contest a year ago and only fly if the spirit moves me. I fly during the week with friends that enjoy soaring. I leave the contest for the ones that can’t have fun unless they win.

John

P.S. It may not be long till the "competition pilots" in our club can win at least third place at every contest just by showing up.

rdwoebke

Dec 27, 2007, 10:58 PM

I mentioned earlier in one of these winch threads the winch setup which was used at this year's Nats. 12 winches for 10 launching positions for MOM (which is especially sensitive to the impacts of line breaks). Incredible uniformity from winch to winch. Incredible reliability (not just from line breaks, but from other kinds of failures.) Launching everything from NOS, 2 Meter, RES and Open. Some guys were even competitive (at least in some rounds) launching AVA's in open class. I don't know what the gear was or even the line size. (If it was 300#, it didn't seem to me to be a significant hindrance to the competitors).

Those are pretty strong winches. They were using at least 250 pound test line and likely 300 pound test stuff (Marc can confirm). You are right, they are all evenly matched. They all have good FLS motors (probably with real balls, again Marc could confirm). I have one of the old Nats winches, about 2 years ago the LSF sold the old units and upgraded.

All good stuff... :-)

But, like Jack said, the winches we are evolving to might be hindering the real newbies with lightly built 2 meter ships. I helped a pilot from rcgroups that may or may not be reading this thread at a contest this past October. He had a Gentle Lady and that is what I started contesting with in 1996. Back then, I could winch the GL fine (granted, not as high as the other pilots, even then, but to a reasonable altitude). Try as we might, we could not get it to get higher than 75 feet off the winches at the contest (we tried just about all of them). It kept popping off. We tried bending the tow hook and other stuff. I had other pilots help, to no avail. It seemed to me, the winches were so powerful that you could not regulate tension low enough for that model, that as short as you tried to to tap it would jerk the plane and then when you released the tap all the tension would drop off. We eventually laid out his high start and that was probably the best solution.

I'm not complaining, that club does a fantastic job and their winches were all evenly matched. Just some food for thought (and if anyone has suggestions on how to winch a lightly built GL on a powerful winch like that, I'd be all ears for if that issue comes up again).

Ryan

BMatthews

Dec 27, 2007, 11:13 PM

I've been away from our local contest soaring groups for almost 10 years now while I concentrated on free flight. I mistakenly assumed that soaring was here to stay and the competitions would continue to be as well attended as they were in the early to mid 90's. Three years ago I hauled out and dusted off the old Bird of Time and went to Mt Vernon for one of the contests hosted by the old group out this way. You know what? It WAS the old group. Nary a young'un in the bunch! ! ! I was talking to the regulars and they all said the same thing that the new megabuck ships have chased away the casual flyers. That and the fact that so many sport flyers are now flying electric assisted gliders and no longer feel the need to join the glider club for access to the launching equipment.

I'd say that the woodie movement is bringing a few folks back but it sure doesn't help if all the winches at the Nats are geared to composite or high tech wood models.

I remember flying at the 91 Nats in Washington where the soaring classes had around 150 flyers PER DAY. I gather that was the glory times and we're not seeing that level of participation any more?

dharban

Dec 27, 2007, 11:51 PM

Ryan,

You and I (and Jack) are clearly on the same page. The last time I checked, our sport was about model sailplanes -- not winches. We probably don't have to go the extremes the FAI does (although as Marc said, it might be nice), but it would be nice to accomplish three things:

1. An acceptable degree of reliability at every place.
2. An acceptable amount of uniformity from place to place.
3. Winches which will allow us to enjoy a wide variety of designs (or, put another way, winches which will not drive the designs of sailplanes to a direction which reduces the overall interest in our sport by a range of enthusiasts from beginners to world champions.

Yes the nats winches were strong, but not so strong as to render their use as impractical for a wide range of designs or by a wide range of pilots. My point there was that they certainly could be used as a benchmark for the upper limits of power and line size. (Weaker winches would not hurt my feelings, but as Jack said "its not about me."

The tight kinds of technical specifications for FAI winches may not really be necessary for our kind of flying. FAI pilots supply their own winches. Clubs usually arrange for winches at our competitions. It occurs to me that we could start with the equipment and procedures that were used at the nats to serve as guides for clubs wanting to gear up for improved competition and sport flying. I think everyone can agree that contest organizers should, first and foremost, commit to furnishing well matched and reliable equipment. To the extent that there are small variations between rigs, random assignment to winches will narrow the advantage which might be gained by "picking the hot one".

Perhaps the LSF or somebody else could work up a recommended specification sheet which would address motor selection, standardized allowable modifications, drum dimensions, line recommendations and turnaround configurations (I suspect that more than a few line failures are the result of less than optimum turnaround design.) In addition, recommendations based on actual experience of line life vs. number of launches from successful events (like the nats) might help some. With guidelines, clubs could move in the direction of a greater degree of standardization as they upgrade their winch through annual maintenance.

I know that this is America where "you'll pry my gun from my cold, dead hands" is the rule of the land. And there are groups out there who will insist on their own "better" way of doing things. But it would it might be useful and even become desirable for organizers to be able to simply represent that the winches for an event will be set up per some guideline or another (or even modified from some guideline in a particular specified way, i.e. "winches are per the guideline except the motors were lifted from Metropolitan Transport train traction units :) ). At least this way, everyone knows what they have.

Notwithstanding the "if you build it, they will launch from it" philosophy it seems to me we are moving a little more quickly toward "improving" our launch systems in ways which will drive plane designs which will cause us to have to "improve" our launch systems further -- all to accomplish the same thing we were doing twenty years ago -- staying up 10 minutes and landing on a spot. If all this would have the effect of strengthening the sport, great. I just don't see how it improves competition to meet the needs experienced pilots without adversely affecting our accesibility to new flyers. Maybe the last guy flying in our sport will launch a solid carbon plane from a 50 horsepower winch loaded with 1500# kevlar line. Who knows.

mlachow

Dec 28, 2007, 08:43 AM

Unfortunately the reality is the guys who don't like the winches are all putting their winches in the noses. Then they are supplying their own equipment so they can put in as much horsepower as they want.

Robglover

Dec 28, 2007, 08:55 AM

I like my winches like they are. I can launch everything from light wimpy winged stuff to carbon winged fire breathing dragons with it. I keep 300 lb line spooled up because I would rather launch planes than repair lines.

There are new pilots that will break wings if they try and use it. No problem, if they accept some help. I will tap them up and teach them how to tame the beast. It's really not that hard for most folks. Watch some old musicals and pay particular attention to the tap dancers feet. Emulate this action.

For those new pilots that don't have this sort of help available I'd suggest a good appropriately sized high start. If they show up at a contest that I'm CD'ing and want to launch themselves then I have no problem with them using their high start. Our fields have plenty of room to set them up parallel alongside and downwind of the winch lines. This allows everybody to play and be happy. There have been days when I've chosen to use a high start myself at club contests just to prove it can be done successfully.

Robglover

Dec 28, 2007, 08:58 AM

schrederman

Dec 28, 2007, 11:22 AM

I put my wench in the nose of a glider once... oh, sorry, we're talking about winches, not wenches. She didn't like it, by the way...

Jack

dhauch

Dec 28, 2007, 02:00 PM

Ryan,

Maybe the last guy flying in our sport will launch a solid carbon plane from a 50 horsepower winch loaded with 1500# kevlar line. Who knows.

Now that sounds like fun! :)

Dave ''I love HUGE zooms'' Hauch

TLyttle

Dec 28, 2007, 09:39 PM

Sorry for stomping on some toes here, but like I said, I have seen this before, 30 years ago, nearly word for word. We ran a contest on the West Coast and decided that we would build 4 winches, all identical, lines and all. Waddaya know: "Winch #2 is weaker than Winch #3, I wanna relaunch!" Sheeesh... The winch wasn't weaker, the pilot was (somewhere between the ears). Sure enough, the next round, the same guy would start yelling from Winch #3, "Winch #4 just outlaunched me! I wanna protest!" Sheeesh #2... For me, that was the final straw. Find a contest somewhere else. It stopped being fun anymore, so the 12th Annual contest never happened.

As far as power winches are concerned, the Canadian Cannon was generating much horsepower (figure it out: 36v at 525A at 746w per horsepower), and no one could blow a line. Gee, no one liked to use it because one had to think about what they were doing or else vapourise their model, yet it was possible to launch a gasbag floater from it.... carefully. This is why I blow a fuse when people start yelling about winches! It is NOT the winches, it is the pilots!

Does the winch line have to withstand abuse from the ground? Sure, but if you are flying from a gravel pit, then all-of-a-sudden the histart or hand-tow become the surefire way to launch on that field.

I second the remark about it being about sailplanes, not winches. I watched the Dassels being launched by hand towers. It was the MODEL that won that event, NOT the launch method! They could have won that contest with highstarts, because the MODEL was that good. Was it high-tech? Wow, was it ever, but it had nothing to do with launching. Why is it that there is so much row about launching method? I still believe that the Dassel, reasonably flown, would be a real competitor in a lot of contests being held today.

If a proper model is built, it will win contests as long as it is flown to its limits, regardless of launch method.

dharban

Dec 28, 2007, 11:13 PM

Why is it that there is so much row about launching method?

The method of launching does not ultimately matter as it relates to fair competition -- as long as all competitors are playing the same game. I may have missed something here, but the issues here can be summed up as:

1. What is the most practical method for sponsoring clubs to ensure reasonable (not necessarily perfect) uniformity among the launching systems that it offers competitors on any particular day?

2. How can sponsors best ensure that reliable equipment will be available on any particular day i.e. minimize line breaks etc.?

3. What choices can sponsoring clubs make to optimize the trade-offs between the winches that satisfy the wishes of die-hard carbon fanatics and the weenies who fly plain vanilla stuff -- especially on the majority of days during the year when the winches are used for sport flying?

I don't think anyone is questioning the proposition that a real man can launch anything with any launching device. It is ridiculous, however, to suggest that the ideal solution is to move the direction that we now seem to be headed -- more and more power, more and more line weight. Sure it doesn't bother me -- I fly a carbon wing plane. But it is no more reasonable to suggest that the most appropriate common denominator is a winch which is optimized to launch our high tech carbon planes than it is to suggest that the most reasonable common denominator would be a winch optimized to launch an Oly II with rubber band wing hold downs.

It may be true that any plane flown well can win. But tests I have done on my own planes (AVA's and Supras) suggests that a hundred feet on a launch is worth a minute or more of dead air time. If the ability to absorb greater forces from our launch systems did not confer an advantage to their owners I doubt that anyone would be paying the extra hundreds of dollars charged for stronger wings. All other things being equal you can't beat extra altitude.

From a personal point of view, I frankly don't care what kind of launch systems we use. I would like to believe that whatever a sponsor sets up is uniform enough to ensure fair competition. And I would like to fly, rather than stand around while the sponsors futz around with broken equipment. I have flown long enough that I am confident that I can launch nearly anything from any system. And, while I am not rich, I have enough money to buy whatever it takes to keep up with the state of the art. Somehow, though, I think that we should be a little thoughtful about driving the cutting edge of our designs to the point where we effectively crowd out too many of the lesser mortals.

It's important to remember that we are still trying to do the same thing we were twenty years ago -- stay up ten minutes and land. And its also worthwhile to remember that we do this for fun -- not just our own fun, but other people's fun and fun for people who have not yet discovered the sport.

mlachow

Dec 29, 2007, 09:29 AM

The real problem is the weather pattern across the US has been pretty bad with storm after storm plus not being able to get out due to family activities... Massive GPS is sweeping the country.

truestorys

Dec 29, 2007, 10:26 AM

I just show up and fly.

What ever winch the field has is fine by me.

I do like faster winches rather than slower winches, but heck.... slow is slow for the other guy too.

It's really about the air not the winch. Can I stay up once off the killer winch?
Can the other guy stay up?
Am I higher than the other guy?
Why is the other guy higher than me?
Why is Jim Fricke ALWAYS higher than me!?! :censored:

Maybe I need a new Glider???

Maybe I can sneak over to his thermal?!

Who's going up?

That Bastard did launch higher than me! How did he do that!? :eek:

Where is the House thermal when I need it?

These are more important questions than, which winch?

Don

Robglover

Dec 29, 2007, 10:29 AM

The real problem is the weather pattern across the US has been pretty bad with storm after storm plus not being able to get out due to family activities... Massive GPS is sweeping the country.

You are 100% correct.

Todays high is going to be in the mid 50's with 3 mph winds. I can see the cure for GPS in my future. :cool:

TLyttle

Dec 29, 2007, 12:31 PM

Good attitude, Don, we could have used more guys like you at our contests...

Shaper Dave

Jan 01, 2008, 05:42 PM

After reading all this it seems clear to me its time for a change in the "Class" designation. We used to have a Standard Class which was eliminated. I suggest that we adopt a new Class called "Unlimited". Then we will have 2 meter, Open and Unlimited. Then the guys with the heavy feet and Mega expensive ships can compete against each other and us regular mortals don't have to worry about flying against them. Depending on the size of the contest you will probably only need 1 or 2 Gorilla winch's with heavy line. As in full scale, the classes all run at the same time.

Just my two cents worth,

Dave

rogerflies

Jan 02, 2008, 12:18 PM

I'm trying to find an analogy for doing a zoom launch of a five pound sailplane with a 4HP winch and 300# line.

The best I can come up with is my pickup truck. It's best suited for hauling stuff around, and it does that pretty well. Now, I could also use it for testing the bashing potential of my sledgehammer. I'd probably find some parts that would break, so I'd reinforce those and go at it again, repeating the process until it could take a real beating. However, with all the reinforcing, it would cost a lot more to carry less stuff, and it wouldn't be as much fun to drive.

Yeah, that about sums it up. :D

Roger

O.L. Adcock

Jan 02, 2008, 06:43 PM

Robglover

Jan 02, 2008, 06:54 PM

jrgospod

Jan 02, 2008, 07:32 PM

Could it be those with weakness's try to morph the rules to mask their failings?? Those that complain about the winches do so cause they don't have the skill to use them properly..Those that complain about landing tasks are not very good at landing..Maybe we should just show up and draw cards if we're not trying to find the best flyers within the rules as written?.....O.L.

That sounds like an answer!!!!

If we keep the same rate of loss of new pilots for the next 20 years (as we have for the last 20 years) your grandchildren can do a Google search to find out what model soaring was all about back at the turn of the century. This sport is dying and the obit is being penned online with the “my way or the door mentality BBBTBAF (Big Boy Big Toy Buy And Fly) mentality”.

John

schrederman

Jan 02, 2008, 09:42 PM

I don't really think I'm in the category of trying to hide any weakness. As I'm one of the main guys talking about this - not complaining - I'll go a bit futrher. I saw a picture of a guy I once knew lately in a model magazine. He used to fly gliders, and won several contests. He moved on. When I asked him why, he said the rules kept changing away from those that could fly to those who wanted to launch higher and use a tooth to land carrier style, (his word, not mine). As you can probably see, that came around back in the '70s when we started zipping up the winches with 6V motors and 12V batteries... and skegs came into use. Weakness... No. I can launch with just about anyone, and land pretty well, without a skeg. More importantly, I can thermal and make my times.

I guess I'm going to have to turn this one around and say that if you can't make 10 minutes from a 500' launch, that's a weakness. If you can't make reasonable landing points without a skeg, that's a weakness. If you can't beat someone who's flying a $1500- moldie with a $200- RES model, that's a weakness.

Can I do all of those things all the time? No. Have I done all of those things.? Yes, with regularity.

So, I'd say, please define the weaknesses you're hinting at.

Understand, please. I'm the one that's started a lot of this, and I'm not complaining about anything. I'm just trying to get us to stop a minute and look where we're headed. There are a lot of us that want to be doing this 20 years in the future and more. I can tell that by some of the posts that keep coming that agree with me. The winch HP and line strength race is just a small symptom of a much larger problem, just as it was in the early '80s. Nobody paid any attention then, either. That's when the kit market died. That's when the last winch HP race went nuts.

Those that don't know history are bound to repeat it.

If you think I'm afraid to fly from a 4 HP winch with 300# line, I'll bring my woody RES Hawk and we'll fly... and I'll break the line to prove I can if you want me to... been there, done that...

No weakness to be masked at this end...

Jack

O.L. Adcock

Jan 02, 2008, 11:40 PM

Jack, "If you think I'm afraid to fly from a 4 HP winch with 300# line, I'll bring my woody RES Hawk and we'll fly... and I'll break the line to prove I can if you want me to... been there, done that..." That's my whole point. Is it perceived super winches are the cause of a drop off in participation? I've been out of it awhile, are there actual numbers showing a drop off or is it only in local areas and cyclic in nature? AMA collects data on interests, what do the numbers show from 10 years ago or 20? From what I've seen so far based on population density it's probably about the same as 15-20 years ago, maybe more. Only a very small percentage will get involved in competition no matter what field or disipline it is. I don't think making things simpler or less costly would make any difference one way or the other to contest participation. Those interested get involved, those that aren't, don't. Those that aren't serious fly anything they want, those that are look for something that fits their style they think will give them an edge....Everyone's got the same options, seems like a pretty level playing field, is it not? :)....O.L.

schrederman

Jan 03, 2008, 12:52 AM

I've never said it isn't a level playing field... In fact I've said several times that it is quite level. But it's a football field and we're starting basketball season... :p

Let's look at club membership. I was a member of the Metro Electronic Soaring Society (MESS) ... headquartered in Ft. Worth. About 40 members in 1975. There was a Dallas club with about 50 members at the same time. Both strictly dedicated to soaring, and the electric stuff wasn't on the scene, yet... nor were ARF gliders. Now there is a combined club with maybe 40 members. In Houston at the time, there were probably 60 Hawk members and a lot of folks in Austin and San Antonio. When I was pres of the Hawks, I thought we should have 75 flyers in a metro area that large. We had less than half that. Numbers dropping off... yes it's been happening for a long time. I am talking about general soaring participation, not just contests. It isn't just the winches... Again, they are one small symptom of a much larger problem, and I have only suggestions. If I had answers, I'd be REALLY screaming! Those interested get involved... I'm interested, and I'm trying to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. If we all take the attitude of "whatever, bring it on"... where will we be in 20 years? I suggest there will be far fewer of us and we'll still be launching high, flying 10 minutes, and landing on a spot. Someone like me will be yelling we've been doing this for 50 years instead of me saying we've been doing it for 30. :rolleyes:

I am just trying to get someone with some stick and some imagination to get serious and get us out of our rut. I am not trying to offend anyone or step on anyone's toes, and I'm not offended by any of the frank discussions we've had here. I thought I had a couple of answers, but not too many seem to like mine, and thats OK, too. But, I want us as a community to figure out where we're going. I'd like a plan instead of just letting us evolve. I've seen what it's doing to full-scale and to R/C... and I don't really like it. The sky isn't falling, but it seems to be lowering, slowly...

So, perhaps instead of berating these ideas and Poor Pitiful Pearl...(me) :p , maybe someone will step up and really say why standardizing winches and lines is a bad idea. While you're at it, think about the classes and tasks we fly in this country and tell me why it's a bad idea to consider revamping those.

Is anyone on the competition comittee looking? C'mon Ladies and Gents... If I didn't love R/C Soaring... I wouldn't bother with all this.

Practicing this weekend for SWC... somewhere... launching high, staying up for 10 minutes, and landing on a spot... :D

Jack ... end of rant... days getting longer... Hawk needs finishing... several building projects... SWC coming up... going back to work tomorrow... :eek: :eek: :eek:

jbrandon

Jan 03, 2008, 10:21 AM

Jack I somewhat agree with you…

Standardized winches are almost am impossibility. Maximum line lengths are controlled by the AMA rules.

Now to the real world. My winch is stronger than yours! And his is stronger than mine. What the heck I’ll just go and get a bigger stronger motor. I’ll buy the biggest battery on the planet. I’ll go to 0/4 cables, etc, etc.

As long as two guys have one winch each there will be a contest to see who has the strongest winch. Line length is sometimes dictated by field size.

The old Ford Long Shaft motor is gone. The replacements motors (http://www.theshope.net/) I have found produce 4.8HP and build into a nice strong reliable winch without adding other things onto it. Will this motor become the “standard” motor, I sure do not know but for now it is just about the only game in town. Yes, I know others have used all sorts of motors to build winches but I am talking about an off the shelf motor that anyone can build a winch with.

I do agree with you about line length but not line weight. I see no problem with heavy line and with the heaver line it will last longer without breaks. I’ve been know to launch a 50” Fling off one of my winches with 340# line. One thing I hate is having to fix line breaks when wanting to fly. I don’t care if it is just for fun or a contest. Line problems are the pits.

Club (sailplane) apathy is another story. I live in a metropolitan area of 1.5 million and I think I can count the glider girders on one hand, two for sure. I live north of the river and there are three up here, and I am the only one with tow hooks installed. I felt and went through the same thoughts you are having now in the 70’s in St Louis again in the 80’s when in Southern California. Each time I left the hobby for a period of years.

Now I am just happy to be able to get out and fly and enjoy the companion ship of others sharing the same passion I have for sailplanes. I think True Stories said it first but just come out and fly what you have on what is there and enjoy yourself.

Jim Brandon

rdwoebke

Jan 03, 2008, 10:39 AM

I’ve been know to launch a 50” Fling off one of my winches with 340# line.

Jim,

I'm going to have to make it to St. Louis sometime to see that. :)

Ryan

SmokinJoe101

Jan 03, 2008, 11:32 AM

:) sorry wrong thread

rogerflies

Jan 03, 2008, 12:13 PM

Jim,

I finally finished the clutch winch using the standard Injoy motor. I ran into some problems getting the rotary solenoid I've used for braking on the other winches, so I ended up using a door lock actuator from a Chevy. Works just as well, and it's easily replaced if something goes wrong with it.

We used the winch the other day to launch my friend's new ASW 27, which weighs about eight pounds. It worked really well for the ROG launch.

I put 200# line on it at his request.

Roger

superskeg

Jan 03, 2008, 12:18 PM

Winches identical to the Nat's winches assailed by some as too strong have burned while launching "perfects" So the discussion should probably be about the winch requirements for the NEXT generation of F3J planes. The max F3J wing area is 150 dm² (2325" ?) (Perfect=75dm² ) so there's a lot of room to grow. The next step may have to be a reduction winch, lots of power but no zoom or a bigger direct drive motor but existing retrievers won't work with reduction winches, how is that going to affect contests?

glderguy

Jan 03, 2008, 01:16 PM

Like Tim said there is a lot of room to grow yet regarding plane size. Planes like the Perfect, etc can and do burn up longshaft motors, I know from experience. I/we pay premium dollar for performance in some of our planes, I for one want to utilize as much of that performance as possible... Ive paid for it. If that means a plane can launch so hard current winches burn, then
why not go to something that can launch a plane w/o burning up the motor.
Standardize winches at contest??? Fine with me. Have a couple "standardized" high power and a couple "standardized" lower power winches. Launch on what ever you want. I see a skeg rant appearing here as well. Personally I like nose skegs. I can land w/o them as well, in fact I didnt use one at the last club TD contest I flew in and didnt do too bad sans skeg. Landing for points w/o the stopping power a skeg gives isnt the issue for me, but the uncontrolled sliding into shins, other people, etc is an issue.
I look at the skeg as a safety device more than anything else, also as a device that will help keep the wing LE of my 2000.00 glider intact.
Walter

TLyttle

Jan 03, 2008, 01:39 PM

"Paid for it"?? Okay, then by all means YOU build a winch that WILL launch your model without frying (I can help), take it to the contest with you, and be gentlemanly enough to allow anyone else who wishes use it. Can't hurt, can it?

Basically, that is how the Canadian winch evolved, and the airplanes that went with it. Just spend the money, experiment until it all works, and you, too, can have a winch/glider that will get half-way to the moon. Of course, by then you will be flying by yourself; who would bother competing with you? Just like the Canadians, the powers-that-be would rewrite the rule books and legislate you, and your winch, and your model, out of existence.

I'm not trying to be mean here, just trying to demonstrate that cubic money wins every time. Everyone learns from it. However, the point is lost: competition is only fun or exciting if everything is equal. Just look at NASCAR if you need to see rules for exciting racing, where innovation is really hard because the rules are so strict. Even flying F3B will teach you about using the rule book to win...

I now fly for sport, as do a few of the guys who were associated with the Cannon; none of us compete any more. There is the lesson right there.

rogerflies

Jan 03, 2008, 02:02 PM

"...but existing retrievers won't work with reduction winches..."

You could always put an electric clutch between the drum and the motor/reduction gear. End of problem. Not to mention that the retriever motor could be a fraction of what's required to spin up the drum/armature and overcome the brush drag.

If I was going to design a killer winch, I'd use a flywheel that's spun up with a relatively small motor. Direct drive to the drum with an electric clutch controlled by the footswitch. It would have enough mass to launch the plane without the speed dropping below what's needed for the desired line speed at the end of the launch. It would still be turning pretty fast after the launch, and the motor would only have to spin it back up to max speed for the next launch. That would take about as long as the retrieve, maybe a little more. Time between launches would suffer if the motor/battery was small, but the launch itself wouldn't be affected.

Standardization could be achieved by setting a safe limit on flywheel size/weight and RPM, with different limits for different classes.

It might have to be mounted on a trailer because of the weight. Remember, it's got to have some kind of cage around the flywheel.

Roger