Wow the Ava can stay up in next to nothing

[flystoolow]

It was nice to see two AVA's this weekend scratching around in the lightest of winter lift. Of course, a Gentle Lady was a little higher most of the time but don't tell that to the AVA owners.

A beautiful calm day of soaring below 500', cold though.

[seanpcola]

I have a S-AVA and it will stay up in almost anything that is out there but as you pointed out, the GL is still king.

[spinolio]

It's called AVA lift. :rolleyes:

Lift sooo... light that only an AVA can use it.

Harry De Boer and I often joke to each other "Happy AVA Day" when you get a day with light wind and low lift.

Dennis

[Andy W]

"mouse farts".. :)
..a

[slozuke]

I just sold my AVA and now I'm waiting on my new Super AVA to arrive any day now. That should fly on less-than-a-mouse-fart. :D

[kwmtrubrit]

I just sold my AVA and now I'm waiting on my new Super AVA to arrive any day now. That should fly on less-than-a-mouse-fart. :D

Bad breath :eek:

[bobthenuke]

We rely on lizard farts out here. :)

...bob

[BrianSmith]

Let us know if you prefer the Super to the Standard Ava.. I personally do not.. Brian

I just sold my AVA and now I'm waiting on my new Super AVA to arrive any day now. That should fly on less-than-a-mouse-fart. :D

[seanpcola]

I just sold my AVA and now I'm waiting on my new Super AVA to arrive any day now. That should fly on less-than-a-mouse-fart. :D


I have flown both but have a lot more time with the Super AVA. The standard does handle better I guess. Mine came in at about 47 oz. when first built and even on really calm days it did kind of wallow around in the air compared to what I was used to. Then a friend came to town with his and loaded about 10 oz. (IIRC) into the ballsat tube. I flew both, again on a calm day, and I liked his much better. I seriously doubt the added weight handicaps the S even on a no wind, light thermal day. Have to install the ballast tube in mine but pretty sure I'll never fly it again "dry".

[bobthenuke]

I fly my SA with 12oz of ballast *all* the time. Better control and much better penetration without seemingly affecting it's thermaling properties. I've heard of other SA owners ballasting them up a lot more than that.

...bob

[Keith Kindrick]

You guys crack me up. The Topaz has the ability to walk around the AVA in most conditions. Ever try one..............

[seanpcola]

You guys crack me up. The Topaz has the ability to walk around the AVA in most conditions. Ever try one..............


Got one. ;) :eek:

[bobthenuke]

You guys crack me up. The Topaz has the ability to walk around the AVA in most conditions. Ever try one..............

Not trying to get into any kind of a dopey "mine is better than yours" thing, but my flying buddy has a Topaz and fell in love with the SA after flying mine. True story and just goes to show that we're very lucky to have the selections we do since one size doesn't really fit all. :) It's all good.

...bob

[O.L. Adcock]

So if the SA seems to fly better with 10+ ounces of lead, why not add 8 in structural materials some where?....O.L.

[seanpcola]

What Bob said.

[seanpcola]

So if the SA seems to fly better with 10+ ounces of lead, why not add 8 in structural materials some where?....O.L.


That is a good thought but right off hand I can't think of anywhere to add strength to it without having to tear into the covering or working the fuse over. I certainly may have missed something on a post or in discussions but about the only place I have heard on the Ava (or Topaz for that matter) that has a history of anything structural being less than ideal is maybe in the stab and rudder mounts. I think that was mostly due to loosening of mounting threads and such from frequent removal and assembly for transport. I never take my feathers off so no problem there for me. I don't mind adding weight in the center but not out at the extreme ends, front, back or side to side. I have not heard of anyone snapping a wing on launch. I am sure it has happened, maybe often but I don't stress mine on the winch either. YMMV.

If it was a kit or scratch built I would probably beef it up somewhere since I now know that the thing is too light anyway but even though I do scratch and kit build I bought mine ARF so I am hoping to not mess with it, that is unless I pile it in ( :eek: :mad: ) and then I probably would do something extra.

Sean

[spinolio]

I agree Brian. I had both and sold the Super after the Nats. I just fly the standard better. My launches are higher, turns are tighter and have more control when landing.

Let us know if you prefer the Super to the Standard Ava.. I personally do not.. Brian

[BrianSmith]

My findings exactly.. Brian

I agree Brian. I had both and sold the Super after the Nats. I just fly the standard better. My launches are higher, turns are tighter and have more control when landing.

[Elmog]

Could someone post a picture of an AVA? I'd like to see what an AVA is!

[ChuckA]

But the Super Ava is easier to see. I agree that it flies better with 10 oz ballast. I bought one to fly in RES at the 2006 Nats and it is now my backup RES model. Original designs are more fun. :)

[seanpcola]

Could someone post a picture of an AVA? I'd like to see what an AVA is!
Super Ava. Only difference between it and the standard is the longer span and more vert. area I believe.

[bobthenuke]

So if the SA seems to fly better with 10+ ounces of lead, why not add 8 in structural materials some where?....O.L.

There's little that can be added or that's even needed as far as structural integrity is concerned...

bob

[schrederman]

I agree with Chuck... Original Designs are more fun!

Jack

[Thermaler]

I really don't want to join the mine is better than yours crowd but.... Having flown an Airtronics Super Esprit for about 15 years all I need is a couple of gnats flapping their wings under me to stay up.
I will show some of you at the NAT's. 8>)

Joe

P.S.,
Picture? Sure!!!

[Elmog]

Thanks for the picture. That is some wingspan...I believe it really will make good use of those mouse farts!

[Jurgen]

Elmog,
Producer : http://www.airplane-model.com/
Dealer : http://www.kennedycomposites.com/
Eat your heart out :)
J

[spinolio]

I'll see you at the Nats Joe, I just filled out the paperwork.

2M, RES and UNL

Dennis

I really don't want to join the mine is better than yours crowd but.... Having flown an Airtronics Super Esprit for about 15 years all I need is a couple of gnats flapping their wings under me to stay up.
I will show some of you at the NAT's. 8>)

Joe

[Thermaler]

See you too Dennis, also hope to make the short trip north to a few contest at your place.
Form downloaded, printed and in the mail,
NOS - Super Esprit
2M - Osprey 2M V tail
RES - Super Esprit (Top Secret Project on hold)
Unlmited - Falcon 880 backed up with a Merlin

Go ahead and laugh, I have more stick time on them than most have on the latest and greatest which will make the field a little bit more level for me. ;>))

Want to send me the trophies now and we can make a Fun Fly out of it? 8>))
I am going to have more fun than anyone so I win, RIGHT!!!!

Joe

[histarter]

It's called AVA lift. :rolleyes:

Lift sooo... light that only an AVA can use it.

Harry De Boer and I often joke to each other "Happy AVA Day" when you get a day with light wind and low lift.

Dennis
The difference between an AVA and a Drifter is that on a nice day the Drifter will climb about 2X as fast, and when specked out - is a lot more difficult to get down (If you are to be somewhere in 20 minutes, don't count on it)! :D :D

[Jflyer1]

I for one feel as though the Topaz penetrates better in the wind than the Ava. As far as which one stays up longer in light lift? Come on, their both inherently light planes. I have to say they will both stay up in the light stuff equally as well. However, where I feel the BIGGEST difference comes in is on landings. To me the Topaz (or Topaz S) lands much better than the Ava. I think the directional control on landing approach is far better and easier with the Topaz than with the Ava. The yaw control of the Topaz on approach seems a lot snappier (more responsive) than the Ava. I guess the "steerability" of the Topaz on landing approach just seems to be much more solid to me than the Ava. Of course, I'm sure everybody has their own preferences/flying styles etc. too right? ;) Anyway, that's just my two cents. Any thoughts??

[strom3932]

At approximately 1000 am EST, AVA #718 was launched into calm air and blue sky on Long Island . After some minor adjustments to elevator and tow hook, it looks like I will keep this one. Floats nice, no tip stall. A fun plane to fly. I have the CG set as per the plan, 4" from the LE. Anyone flying further back with good results?

[sleep4]

4 1/8 in. works for me. Have gone as far back as 4.5 in. in calm air.

[histarter]

I for one feel as though the Topaz penetrates better in the wind than the Ava. As far as which one stays up longer in light lift? Come on, their both inherently light planes. I have to say they will both stay up in the light stuff equally as well. However, where I feel the BIGGEST difference comes in is on landings. To me the Topaz (or Topaz S) lands much better than the Ava. I think the directional control on landing approach is far better and easier with the Topaz than with the Ava. The yaw control of the Topaz on approach seems a lot snappier (more responsive) than the Ava. I guess the "steerability" of the Topaz on landing approach just seems to be much more solid to me than the Ava. Of course, I'm sure everybody has their own preferences/flying styles etc. too right? ;) Anyway, that's just my two cents. Any thoughts??
Evaluation is excellent!
Have the AVA competition keep moving their CG back with the critically tuned tail feather volume; this is a great concept to keep the Topaz in the lead! :D

[bobthenuke]

*Sacrasm dial turned to max*

Yes, it appears that the AVA is truly a real POS compared to other gliders in the same class (specifically the Topaz). I'm surprised that the Soprano guys haven't chimed in yet.

*Sarcasm off*

All of the gliders in this "class" have advantages and disadvantages. To make claims that one is "better" than the other for whatever reason is nonsense. It's up to the pilot to explore, exploit, and work with these. A good pilot will do well be it an Ava, Topaz, Soprano, etc. A lousy pilot will be dismayed at the performance of any of these. I have not flown a Soprano so cannot comment on it's pros and cons but assume that it too is an excellent machine in the hands of a competent pilot.

-bob

[histarter]

*Sacrasm dial turned to max*

Yes, it appears that the AVA is truly a real POS compared to other gliders in the same class (specifically the Topaz). I'm surprised that the Soprano guys haven't chimed in yet.

*Sarcasm off*

All of the gliders in this "class" have advantages and disadvantages. To make claims that one is "better" than the other for whatever reason is nonsense. It's up to the pilot to explore, exploit, and work with these. A good pilot will do well be it an Ava, Topaz, Soprano, etc. A lousy pilot will be dismayed at the performance of any of these. I have not flown a Soprano so cannot comment on it's pros and cons but assume that it too is an excellent machine in the hands of a competent pilot.


-bob
Bob, we have lots of great machines today, however most of the pilots never embellish designs to gain its full performance potential (other than fiddle around with programming), nor stick with it long enough for expertise (teamwork) to set in. Basically we are saying the same thing with me being more sarcastic, and candid! :p

True, there is a lot of duplication in the top of the line family of models, but it seems the zero tolerance of society makes seeking perfection (even with miniscule gains) a national disease! :o

[baum58]

Hi gang,
I have flown my Ava with great success and I am bulding a Super now.
Dennis and I placed 1, 2 at the Nat's a year ago. (Summer 2007 I was at the f3b worlds). I have a monster ballast tube in my Ava (32oz). I have flown the Munzie cross country course to the Chapel and back in less than 30 Min with 24oz in the regular Ava.
I covered 74 miles with Skip Miller at the JR aerotow a year back. All this is leading me to build the Super for Cross Country. Here are the modifications:

1. Monster ballast tube 32oz. The tube is C cell size and can double as a Rx battery holder (5 cell).

2. 5 more inches added to the tail boom.

3. 2500mh 5 cell battery.

4. Picolario ready

5. Heading hold gyro on rudder (using extra channel to turn on and off in flight).

6. Re-covering the wing tips to nuclear fluorescent orange, painting the nosecone the same color.

7. Digital servos, copied somewhat the rudder pushrod geometry of my Pike Perfect for a faster rudder response.

8. Target weight is 45 oz, dry

[Andy W]

5 cells and digital servos is overkill..
..a

[baum58]

Hi Andy,
The 5 cell's are there to extend the flight time when needed.Also, the ballast tube is just the right size for 5 cells.

Peter

[terry.cx]

You're going to get quicker responding servos from the higher voltage of a 5 cell pack. But, a 4 cell pack of equal amps will provide longer flight times. It's ohms law and all that stuff ;^)

Terry

[slozuke]

Just maidened my new SA over the weekend and I found a lot of the comments true.

The Ava seems to turn better in flight. The SA starts a turn like a bus but once it gets in the turn it spins up and gets on a groove just like the Ava.

The Ava is better on landing than the Super Ava. The SA wants to float forever but once I get accustomed to the spoiler on the SA I hope to get that under better control once again. But since both use the same spoiler with different spans it may always be an issue.

I can see using a constant ballast load (8-10 oz?) in the SA. Without it the weight just isn't there, it's almost too light unballasted. But come the dead days of summer that may change, only time will tell. The SA is definitely floatier than the Ava.

If I were one of unlimited funds I can see having both the Ava and the SA as they both have their place. I like them both in deifferent ways. I like the SA but I also wish I could have my ol' Ava back too!

[baum58]

Short story, long flight, more then a hour the first time out. All I did is a hand tosssssss....and... glide and then a high start to 400 feet. I was programing in flight to get the trows right. With the picopario on I went to 2000 over.
The finnished weight is 47oz I did have 10oz ballast in the plane, did not use the gyro. CG was hot ( to hot, addad 1/4 oz after landing and moved the tow hook back). I did not have any slow reaction on the rudder, the extra 5 inches on the tail and the digital's helped a lot...... speed range is great, can't wait to add some more ballast....

Peter

[IBWALT]

The finnished weight is 47oz I did have 10oz ballast in the plane, did not use the gyro. CG was hot ( to hot, addad 1/4 oz after landing and moved the tow hook back). I did not have any slow reaction on the rudder, the extra 5 inches on the tail and the digital's helped a lot...... speed range is great, can't wait to add some more ballast....Peter

Peter, your right about the c/g. The 100mm that Barry has on the website is pretty neutral. It won't pull out of a dive test at that c/g. As a matter of fact it will want to tuck under if you let it and it can be a hand full if you don't keep and eye on it. But it will signal lift well. As for ballast I fly with 9oz in my Super AVA all of the time regardless of how light the wind may be. When the wind picks up (over 9 or 10 mph) I start adding lead. My max is 16 oz and it still flys well with a pound of lead. I have worked very light lift with a club member who has an un-ballasted Super AVA and he did out climb me by about 10 feet over a period of 10 or 15 minutes. So your not giving up much and it flys so much better with the ballast.

Walt

[Test005]

Looks like the Ava should be bundled with a comfy lawn chair :) ...Can't wait for mine to arrive so I can get started on it.
I have three Hitec hs-85mg servos for it, should be good, right?

Could you guys tell me about the horizontal stab fix? I've read somewhere that the pushrod might loosen from the stab and there was a fix to remedy it, just can't find it again.... I wanna make sure my Ava keeps the stab in flight.

[IBWALT]

I have three Hitec hs-85mg servos for it, should be good, right?

Could you guys tell me about the horizontal stab fix? I've read somewhere that the pushrod might loosen from the stab and there was a fix to remedy it, just can't find it again.... I wanna make sure my Ava keeps the stab in flight.

Test, a hs-85mg will not fit in the AVA wing. It will work fine for the rudder and elevator but the spacing of the ribs in the AVA center section is to narrow for the hs-85mg. Well perhaps with some major surgery to the servo or the center section it would work. But I would suggest you use a micro servo of some sort. I have a JR-241 in my Super AVA and it fits fine. If you want to stick with Hitec you might look at the hs-65. It's small with lots of torque.

As for setting up the spoiler on the AVA I would suggest that you get as much spoiler movement as you can. This works great for de-thermalizing but for landing you need to limit the spoiler opening to what is recommended (22mm).

As for the stab mount I think that Vladimir has fixed that. What everyone is referring to is the small threaded stud in the stab mount that holds the stab on. A lot of the early Supras and AVAs stabs were coming off because this little stud was not buried deep enough in the stab mount. If you want to put a nut on it and give it a couple of good pulls to see if it loosens or comes out. If you don't feel confident in its ability to hold the stab on, remove it. Then with a small drill continue on through the stab mount to the bottom. Then put cut the head off of a bolt the same size as the stud. Run it down the hole you just drilled and put a small nut on the bottom of the stab mount. Now put some CA around the stud where it goes through the stab mount and it is secure. Trim off any excess stud that would protrude above the stab hold down nut and your done. Here is what I'm talking about.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7829431&postcount=2


Walt

[baum58]

test

[lincoln]

So if the SA seems to fly better with 10+ ounces of lead, why not add 8 in structural materials some where?....O.L.
Just so you keep it all within 5 inches of the CG!

[Test005]

Test, a hs-85mg will not fit in the AVA wing. It will work fine for the rudder and elevator but the spacing of the ribs in the AVA center section is to narrow for the hs-85mg. Well perhaps with some major surgery to the servo or the center section it would work. But I would suggest you use a micro servo of some sort.

I appologize, didn't mention that I have ordered the AVA with a flapped wing, not the traditional spoiler wing.
I assumed the hs-85mg would fit, because this is the flap servo I have in my Organic 2.5m and it's of similair design as the Ava.


Thanks for the horizontal stab tip.


T5

[IBWALT]

Test, if you have the flapped version then the hs-85 should work just fine.

Walt

[aeajr]

When you guys set-up your AVAs ( or Topaz ) Do you use any mixes?

I have an AVA coming. It has a modified spoiler that is slplit into two side spoilers, with a fixed section in the middle. Something like the Topaz S.

Anyway, I assume that I would want to set up Spoiler/elevator mix for landing. I will use the flap/elevator mix on my Futaba 9C Super.

Is three any benefit from any other mixes or presets?

[tonyestep]

You'll need to couple in some up elevator along with the spoiler. With the mono-spoiler, you need a lot of up elevator -- much less with the split spoilers. It's non-linear. The rate of coupling is high at first, then after the spoilers are up maybe 20 degrees, you continue to add up elevator but at a slower rate.

[rob1978]

well,,, we've got a couple of ava's in our club.. this winter i built (am still building) a bubble dancer.. lets see who ends up on top! i've heard the bd can thermal off the steam on a fresh pile of dog dung ;)

[lincoln]

I think with split spoilers the mix may not be necessary. It is with the mono spoiler just to get enough throw. However, when I deploy spoilers with compensation, the glider pitches up first and then pitches down to a reasonable attitude. Harder to compensate for than just a straight pitch down.

[aeajr]

I have a Spirt 2M RES and a Sagitta 600 RES. They behave very differently when I deploy spoilers. The Spirit needs only a very small amount of elevator comp. The Sagitta needs quite a bit.

Those are both split spoiler sailplanes. My AVA, purchased used and modified, has split spoilers so I don't know what it will do, but I am sure some compensation will be needed.

I am not sure if there is one servo or two in there, but if there are two, I might even play with the mixes to see if I can get some roll value from the split spoilers coupled to the rudder. They are probably not far enough apart to matter, but hey, I have a 9C with lots of mixing capability. Gotta play! :D

My AVA arived Monday. It looks great. I hope to have it in the air this weekend.

Rob, I am still going to suffer from Bubble Dancer envy, but having the AVA will help me deal with it.

[IBWALT]

Ed, the AVA that I've seen that had split spoilers did have two servos. However, if you use the spoilers independently for roll control you will be breaking the rules of the RES class.

3.1.6.c. Spoilers and/or air brakes must
extend only above the top surface of the wing
when deployed. The trailing edge of the
spoiler/airbrake must be at least two inches
ahead of the trailing edge of the wing. Two or
more spoiler/air brakes may be used, but they
must all act in unison and extend above the
surface of the wing by the same amount when
deployed.

Walt

[aeajr]

Thanks Walt. If I fly in a RES competition I will be sure to operate them as one unit. I have no desire to violate any rules.

But for fun, I can do anything I like, and usually do. ;)

[rob1978]

OOO... AVA THIS WEEKEND!!! i gotta make it down to the feild for that! maybe you'll let me fly it a little if you get it trimmed and flying well??? ;)

[aeajr]

OOO... AVA THIS WEEKEND!!! i gotta make it down to the feild for that! maybe you'll let me fly it a little if you get it trimmed and flying well??? ;)

Sure, I don't charge much. Since this is a clone of the BD it should have a similar feel. Naturally I will have some tunning to do.

[strom3932]

well,,, we've got a couple of ava's in our club.. this winter i built (am still building) a bubble dancer.. lets see who ends up on top! i've heard the bd can thermal off the steam on a fresh pile of dog dung ;)




you better not step in that stuff cause your not launching on my winch with that stinky sneaker.......ha ha ha ha

[rob1978]

;) hey frank.. no worries.. i'll make sure to just fly over it! what happened with your ava??? i heard the center section folded??? was it a structural thing?

[Hostage-46]

Dual spoilers on the Ava.... hmm wonder why? Better rudder authority in the landing circle?

[IBWALT]

Ed, be sure to take some pictures of your new AVA to post here.

Walt

[aeajr]

Dual spoilers on the Ava.... hmm wonder why? Better rudder authority in the landing circle?

That's what the tell me. The yellow is the spoilers.

[lincoln]

Dual spoilers mean less pitch down, I bet.

BTW, what are you guys taping the tips with? I have been using electrical tape and it seems to pick up the film when removing. (i.e. damages it)

[IBWALT]

I use Moore Crystal Clear tape. I tape both the center and outer panel. Then when I join the two I tape them with the electrical tape. The Moore Crystal Clear prevents the electrical tape from pulling the Ultra Coat up.

Taping the center section is a no brainer but the tip panel has a slight taper to it and you have to be careful so you don't end up with a ridge in your tape. I use one continuous piece of tape to do both top and bottom and overlap them at the trailing edge.

I like the Moore because it does not harden or yellow. I have been using it for years and would not use anything else. It is available at most art supply stores. Give it a try I think that you will like it.

Walt

[tonyestep]

Walt's suggestion is the best if you use long strips of tape, but I have found that you can tape the join only at the D-tube, so the tape doesn't touch any covering, and that's plenty to hold the tips on (at least it has been so far, since 2001).

[BrianSmith]

Wonder where you got that picture Ed? I just bought a center section with "flaps" that was the same color and has the same AMA number and an Airtronics decal on the other side, just like this one. Boy does that white transparent covering show up nice in the air.. Bet we dealt with the same person. Brian

That's what the tell me. The yellow is the spoilers.

[aeajr]

I guess so.

I put in the receiver and have everything working on my 9C now. I checked the balance and it looks good. Maybe a tad nose heavy. We will see.

All up this AVA is 44 ounces. That includes the optional ballast tube, an extra servo for the split spoiler, the structure for the split spoilers and a center skeg. Figure it would be 41 or 42 without them. That is about the same as my 2M sagitta 600

44 ounces, this will be a brick! Probably won't fly. WL is about 5.7.

It is amazing how light these planes are. :)

[aeajr]

Today it was raining lightly when I left the house heading for the field at 9:30.

I and 4 other flyers waited it out till around 10:30 when the rain stopped and we set up the winch.

Wind was never over 6 mph today. Heavy cloud cover, so there was no sun at all. A perfect day to try the AVA.

After a few hand throws I put it up on the winch. Went up nice and got a mild zoom.

What a floater! Amazing! This plane does not want to come down at all.

I played with the spoiler/elevator mix till I got it just right. CG is right at 4" Rudder is dead straight. And she flies like a dream.

We had a club contest. I made all my times, two dead on, and made landing points on all but one.

Then I went up hunting. I had an 18 minute flight and an 30 minute flight. No problem!

This is one great thermal machine. ;)

[BrianSmith]

I'm not at all suprised by your findings. :D Brian

Today it was raining lightly when I left the house heading for the field at 9:30.

I and 4 other flyers waited it out till around 10:30 when the rain stopped and we set up the winch.

Wind was never over 6 mph today. Heavy cloud cover, so there was no sun at all. A perfect day to try the AVA.

After a few hand throws I put it up on the winch. Went up nice and got a mild zoom.

What a floater! Amazing! This plane does not want to come down at all.

I played with the spoiler/elevator mix till I got it just right. CG is right at 4" Rudder is dead straight. And she flies like a dream.

We had a club contest. I made all my times, two dead on, and made landing points on all but one.

Then I went up hunting. I had an 18 minute flight and an 30 minute flight. No problem!

This is one great thermal machine. ;)

[aeajr]

I am more and more pleased with this plane. I am now working on flying it in wind. I have made up a 9 oz and a 12 ounce ballast slug. Now I need more wind to really challenge the plane.

I have had it up with the 9oz slug in about 10 mph wind and it flew great.