What's measuring toe in/out???

[Jamie Garofalo]

On my Losi XXX-NT, I'm using the stock rear hub carriers. I was under
the impresstion (I must have read it somewhere) that the toe in was 3
degrees. I've had the RPM toe in/out gauge for some time and I've
always used it on the front because it's adjustable. The other day, I
decided to check the toe in on the rear and according to the gauge,
it's like 5-6 degrees. I thought it might have been a bent rim but it
wasn't......

What's with that?? Who's measuring and what's the scale?

Thanks!

[TempestNightmare]

Are you sure you do not mean camber? Toe is measured in inches or MM, camber
in degrees. and three degrees camber sounds about right. The toe should be
run about 1/16" negative. The hubs usually change camber, not toe.
Jon

"Jamie Garofalo" <jamie@xpedite.com> wrote in message
news:76a9728.0212031134.39a360ae@posting.google.co m...
> On my Losi XXX-NT, I'm using the stock rear hub carriers. I was under
> the impresstion (I must have read it somewhere) that the toe in was 3
> degrees. I've had the RPM toe in/out gauge for some time and I've
> always used it on the front because it's adjustable. The other day, I
> decided to check the toe in on the rear and according to the gauge,
> it's like 5-6 degrees. I thought it might have been a bent rim but it
> wasn't......
>
> What's with that?? Who's measuring and what's the scale?
>
> Thanks!

[Jamie Garofalo]

No. I know the difference between camber, caster, and toe. Toe is also
measured in degrees. Unless they use the term "degrees" as some unit
measure. Perhaps it's not accurate or standard? I'm just going by what
the gauge says. I usually race w/ .5 - 2 degrees of toe-in on the
front and I was just suprised to find that much toe-in in the rear.
Losi offers different read hubs to alter the toe. The toe-in in at the
pivot block is 3 degrees and the toe-in at the stock hub is 1 degree.
That's a total of 4 degrees (yes, I'm a math wizard). However, I know
for a fact that it was more than this according to the guage. I wish
somone from Losi and RPM would comment.

[Pt3]

Yes, Toe is measured in degrees as well. For 12 years I did nothing but
Alignments on real cars/trucks and the degrees is used to make it easier to
do alignments on automobiles. One thing you have to remember is that
degrees is double that of inches. In other words....1/4" of toe is .50
degrees. So, 5 degrees of toe is equivalent to 2 1/2" of (total) toe and
that is a lot of toe and you will usually only see something like this on
the rear of an RC car, not the front. In the real world, 1 degree of toe
would effectively wipe out a set of tires within a week of driving or about
2-3 hundred miles. It might not wipe them completely, but it will set a
pattern that will not fade even if the toe problem was fixed.

Patrick
"Jamie Garofalo" <jamie@xpedite.com> wrote in message
news:76a9728.0212040734.33208a88@posting.google.co m...
> No. I know the difference between camber, caster, and toe. Toe is also
> measured in degrees. Unless they use the term "degrees" as some unit
> measure. Perhaps it's not accurate or standard? I'm just going by what
> the gauge says. I usually race w/ .5 - 2 degrees of toe-in on the
> front and I was just suprised to find that much toe-in in the rear.
> Losi offers different read hubs to alter the toe. The toe-in in at the
> pivot block is 3 degrees and the toe-in at the stock hub is 1 degree.
> That's a total of 4 degrees (yes, I'm a math wizard). However, I know
> for a fact that it was more than this according to the guage. I wish
> somone from Losi and RPM would comment.

[chuck_steak@nospam.com]

In article <GLsH9.35143$ic6.18220@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>,
"Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote:

>Yes, Toe is measured in degrees as well. For 12 years I did nothing but
>Alignments on real cars/trucks and the degrees is used to make it easier to
>do alignments on automobiles. One thing you have to remember is that
>degrees is double that of inches. In other words....1/4" of toe is .50
>degrees.


1/4" of toe on a 20" truck rim/tire, is not the same angle
as 1/4" toe on a 13" Honda rim/tire...

It may work out that way on the 'average' car wheel/tire, but it is
not a math constant.



Dan
----------------------------------------------
Never kick a cow flap on a hot day........

[Pt3]

Sorry, but you are wrong... A 1/4" of toe is just that.....it has no
bearing on wheel size. You may be able to visualize it more on a larger
tire, but it is the same no matter. 1/4" of toe on a 12" tire is the same
as if it was on a 20" tire.

Patrick



<chuck_steak@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:asm4s2$sih$3@bob.news.rcn.net...
> In article <GLsH9.35143$ic6.18220@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>,
> "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >Yes, Toe is measured in degrees as well. For 12 years I did nothing but
> >Alignments on real cars/trucks and the degrees is used to make it easier
to
> >do alignments on automobiles. One thing you have to remember is that
> >degrees is double that of inches. In other words....1/4" of toe is .50
> >degrees.
>
>
> 1/4" of toe on a 20" truck rim/tire, is not the same angle
> as 1/4" toe on a 13" Honda rim/tire...
>
> It may work out that way on the 'average' car wheel/tire, but it is
> not a math constant.
>
>
>
> Dan
> ----------------------------------------------
> Never kick a cow flap on a hot day........
>

[Pt3]

TOE:

This refers to the tilted direction of the wheels toward or away from one
another when viewed from the top. Toe is the most critical tire wearing
angle. Tires that "toe-in" point toward one another. Tires that "toe-out"
point away from each other.

I've been doing this for many years and it does not matter. Specs are in
the machines for only one reason and tire size is not a factor when it comes
to toe. Camber on the other hand can be impacted by tire size only because
the wider tires usually like a setting closer to "0", but not always.
Still, the measurement is in no way affected by the tire size, just the
results of the angle.

Patrick




"Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:xkzH9.25222$31.5539@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> Sorry, but you are wrong... A 1/4" of toe is just that.....it has no
> bearing on wheel size. You may be able to visualize it more on a larger
> tire, but it is the same no matter. 1/4" of toe on a 12" tire is the same
> as if it was on a 20" tire.
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
> <chuck_steak@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:asm4s2$sih$3@bob.news.rcn.net...
> > In article <GLsH9.35143$ic6.18220@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>,
> > "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Yes, Toe is measured in degrees as well. For 12 years I did nothing
but
> > >Alignments on real cars/trucks and the degrees is used to make it
easier
> to
> > >do alignments on automobiles. One thing you have to remember is that
> > >degrees is double that of inches. In other words....1/4" of toe is .50
> > >degrees.
> >
> >
> > 1/4" of toe on a 20" truck rim/tire, is not the same angle
> > as 1/4" toe on a 13" Honda rim/tire...
> >
> > It may work out that way on the 'average' car wheel/tire, but it is
> > not a math constant.
> >
> >
> >
> > Dan
> > ----------------------------------------------
> > Never kick a cow flap on a hot day........
> >
>
>

[cruuk]

i think what chuck is saying is where do you measure your 1/4" of toe
from? is it in line with the tie rod? is it inline with the inside
of the wheel, the outside of the tire? where? i can see how a degree
would be constant to any wheel size but the measurement i dont see how
it could be unless there is a standard place to take it.


On Thu, 05 Dec 2002 03:12:21 GMT, "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote:

>TOE:
>
>This refers to the tilted direction of the wheels toward or away from one
>another when viewed from the top. Toe is the most critical tire wearing
>angle. Tires that "toe-in" point toward one another. Tires that "toe-out"
>point away from each other.
>
>I've been doing this for many years and it does not matter. Specs are in
>the machines for only one reason and tire size is not a factor when it comes
>to toe. Camber on the other hand can be impacted by tire size only because
>the wider tires usually like a setting closer to "0", but not always.
>Still, the measurement is in no way affected by the tire size, just the
>results of the angle.
>
>Patrick
>
>
>
>
>"Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message
>news:xkzH9.25222$31.5539@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
>> Sorry, but you are wrong... A 1/4" of toe is just that.....it has no
>> bearing on wheel size. You may be able to visualize it more on a larger
>> tire, but it is the same no matter. 1/4" of toe on a 12" tire is the same
>> as if it was on a 20" tire.
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>>
>>
>> <chuck_steak@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:asm4s2$sih$3@bob.news.rcn.net...
>> > In article <GLsH9.35143$ic6.18220@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>,
>> > "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >Yes, Toe is measured in degrees as well. For 12 years I did nothing
>but
>> > >Alignments on real cars/trucks and the degrees is used to make it
>easier
>> to
>> > >do alignments on automobiles. One thing you have to remember is that
>> > >degrees is double that of inches. In other words....1/4" of toe is .50
>> > >degrees.
>> >
>> >
>> > 1/4" of toe on a 20" truck rim/tire, is not the same angle
>> > as 1/4" toe on a 13" Honda rim/tire...
>> >
>> > It may work out that way on the 'average' car wheel/tire, but it is
>> > not a math constant.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Dan
>> > ----------------------------------------------
>> > Never kick a cow flap on a hot day........
>> >
>>
>>
>

[Pt3]

OK, this is an easy way of looking at it. Imagine you are above the car
looking down at the two front wheels. Now, for each wheel imagine a
complete circle around each wheel total of 360 degrees. Now you are looking
at where the wheel is pointing at one another. The measurement is absolute
and total toe is both added together. Look here and see what I'm saying.

http://www.hogantire.com/tcalignangles.htm

Patrick



"cruuk" <cruuk@interbaunxxx.com> wrote in message
news:klhtuu84npdpkirlkuaslgjooki235r5k3@4ax.com...
> i think what chuck is saying is where do you measure your 1/4" of toe
> from? is it in line with the tie rod? is it inline with the inside
> of the wheel, the outside of the tire? where? i can see how a degree
> would be constant to any wheel size but the measurement i dont see how
> it could be unless there is a standard place to take it.
>
>
> On Thu, 05 Dec 2002 03:12:21 GMT, "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >TOE:
> >
> >This refers to the tilted direction of the wheels toward or away from one
> >another when viewed from the top. Toe is the most critical tire wearing
> >angle. Tires that "toe-in" point toward one another. Tires that "toe-out"
> >point away from each other.
> >
> >I've been doing this for many years and it does not matter. Specs are in
> >the machines for only one reason and tire size is not a factor when it
comes
> >to toe. Camber on the other hand can be impacted by tire size only
because
> >the wider tires usually like a setting closer to "0", but not always.
> >Still, the measurement is in no way affected by the tire size, just the
> >results of the angle.
> >
> >Patrick
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >"Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message
> >news:xkzH9.25222$31.5539@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> >> Sorry, but you are wrong... A 1/4" of toe is just that.....it has no
> >> bearing on wheel size. You may be able to visualize it more on a
larger
> >> tire, but it is the same no matter. 1/4" of toe on a 12" tire is the
same
> >> as if it was on a 20" tire.
> >>
> >> Patrick
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> <chuck_steak@nospam.com> wrote in message
> >> news:asm4s2$sih$3@bob.news.rcn.net...
> >> > In article <GLsH9.35143$ic6.18220@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>,
> >> > "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >Yes, Toe is measured in degrees as well. For 12 years I did nothing
> >but
> >> > >Alignments on real cars/trucks and the degrees is used to make it
> >easier
> >> to
> >> > >do alignments on automobiles. One thing you have to remember is
that
> >> > >degrees is double that of inches. In other words....1/4" of toe is
..50
> >> > >degrees.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > 1/4" of toe on a 20" truck rim/tire, is not the same angle
> >> > as 1/4" toe on a 13" Honda rim/tire...
> >> >
> >> > It may work out that way on the 'average' car wheel/tire, but it is
> >> > not a math constant.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Dan
> >> > ----------------------------------------------
> >> > Never kick a cow flap on a hot day........
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
>

[TempestNightmare]

I agree...but when did they go to degrees for toe??? I have always done my
1:1's in inches...have done many track car set ups and my gauge is in
inches..unless maybe you are using an alignment rack...
Jon

"Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:xkzH9.25222$31.5539@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> Sorry, but you are wrong... A 1/4" of toe is just that.....it has no
> bearing on wheel size. You may be able to visualize it more on a larger
> tire, but it is the same no matter. 1/4" of toe on a 12" tire is the same
> as if it was on a 20" tire.
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
> <chuck_steak@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:asm4s2$sih$3@bob.news.rcn.net...
> > In article <GLsH9.35143$ic6.18220@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>,
> > "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Yes, Toe is measured in degrees as well. For 12 years I did nothing
but
> > >Alignments on real cars/trucks and the degrees is used to make it
easier
> to
> > >do alignments on automobiles. One thing you have to remember is that
> > >degrees is double that of inches. In other words....1/4" of toe is .50
> > >degrees.
> >
> >
> > 1/4" of toe on a 20" truck rim/tire, is not the same angle
> > as 1/4" toe on a 13" Honda rim/tire...
> >
> > It may work out that way on the 'average' car wheel/tire, but it is
> > not a math constant.
> >
> >
> >
> > Dan
> > ----------------------------------------------
> > Never kick a cow flap on a hot day........
> >
>
>

[TempestNightmare]

From the top????? and here I thought that was camber...I always measure my
toe at the horizontial front and rear of the tires...I'll be damned...
Jon

"Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:puzH9.25244$31.1369@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> TOE:
>
> This refers to the tilted direction of the wheels toward or away from one
> another when viewed from the top. Toe is the most critical tire wearing
> angle. Tires that "toe-in" point toward one another. Tires that "toe-out"
> point away from each other.
>
> I've been doing this for many years and it does not matter. Specs are in
> the machines for only one reason and tire size is not a factor when it
comes
> to toe. Camber on the other hand can be impacted by tire size only
because
> the wider tires usually like a setting closer to "0", but not always.
> Still, the measurement is in no way affected by the tire size, just the
> results of the angle.
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
>
> "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:xkzH9.25222$31.5539@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> > Sorry, but you are wrong... A 1/4" of toe is just that.....it has no
> > bearing on wheel size. You may be able to visualize it more on a larger
> > tire, but it is the same no matter. 1/4" of toe on a 12" tire is the
same
> > as if it was on a 20" tire.
> >
> > Patrick
> >
> >
> >
> > <chuck_steak@nospam.com> wrote in message
> > news:asm4s2$sih$3@bob.news.rcn.net...
> > > In article <GLsH9.35143$ic6.18220@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>,
> > > "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >Yes, Toe is measured in degrees as well. For 12 years I did nothing
> but
> > > >Alignments on real cars/trucks and the degrees is used to make it
> easier
> > to
> > > >do alignments on automobiles. One thing you have to remember is that
> > > >degrees is double that of inches. In other words....1/4" of toe is
..50
> > > >degrees.
> > >
> > >
> > > 1/4" of toe on a 20" truck rim/tire, is not the same angle
> > > as 1/4" toe on a 13" Honda rim/tire...
> > >
> > > It may work out that way on the 'average' car wheel/tire, but it is
> > > not a math constant.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dan
> > > ----------------------------------------------
> > > Never kick a cow flap on a hot day........
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[TempestNightmare]

Thats very misleading... the view is from the FRONT of the car looking
straight on at the tires..not the top...Make it simple...sit your butt down
on the ground in front of your car....do the wheels point in towards each
other?/ toe in, away from each other?/ toe out..does one wheel point out
and the other straight or in?? you have a problem!!!LOL...
Jon

"Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:s%zH9.25352$31.13398@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> OK, this is an easy way of looking at it. Imagine you are above the car
> looking down at the two front wheels. Now, for each wheel imagine a
> complete circle around each wheel total of 360 degrees. Now you are
looking
> at where the wheel is pointing at one another. The measurement is
absolute
> and total toe is both added together. Look here and see what I'm saying.
>
> http://www.hogantire.com/tcalignangles.htm
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
> "cruuk" <cruuk@interbaunxxx.com> wrote in message
> news:klhtuu84npdpkirlkuaslgjooki235r5k3@4ax.com...
> > i think what chuck is saying is where do you measure your 1/4" of toe
> > from? is it in line with the tie rod? is it inline with the inside
> > of the wheel, the outside of the tire? where? i can see how a degree
> > would be constant to any wheel size but the measurement i dont see how
> > it could be unless there is a standard place to take it.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 05 Dec 2002 03:12:21 GMT, "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote:
> >
> > >TOE:
> > >
> > >This refers to the tilted direction of the wheels toward or away from
one
> > >another when viewed from the top. Toe is the most critical tire wearing
> > >angle. Tires that "toe-in" point toward one another. Tires that
"toe-out"
> > >point away from each other.
> > >
> > >I've been doing this for many years and it does not matter. Specs are
in
> > >the machines for only one reason and tire size is not a factor when it
> comes
> > >to toe. Camber on the other hand can be impacted by tire size only
> because
> > >the wider tires usually like a setting closer to "0", but not always.
> > >Still, the measurement is in no way affected by the tire size, just the
> > >results of the angle.
> > >
> > >Patrick
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >"Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message
> > >news:xkzH9.25222$31.5539@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> > >> Sorry, but you are wrong... A 1/4" of toe is just that.....it has no
> > >> bearing on wheel size. You may be able to visualize it more on a
> larger
> > >> tire, but it is the same no matter. 1/4" of toe on a 12" tire is the
> same
> > >> as if it was on a 20" tire.
> > >>
> > >> Patrick
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> <chuck_steak@nospam.com> wrote in message
> > >> news:asm4s2$sih$3@bob.news.rcn.net...
> > >> > In article <GLsH9.35143$ic6.18220@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>,
> > >> > "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > >Yes, Toe is measured in degrees as well. For 12 years I did
nothing
> > >but
> > >> > >Alignments on real cars/trucks and the degrees is used to make it
> > >easier
> > >> to
> > >> > >do alignments on automobiles. One thing you have to remember is
> that
> > >> > >degrees is double that of inches. In other words....1/4" of toe
is
> .50
> > >> > >degrees.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > 1/4" of toe on a 20" truck rim/tire, is not the same angle
> > >> > as 1/4" toe on a 13" Honda rim/tire...
> > >> >
> > >> > It may work out that way on the 'average' car wheel/tire, but it is
> > >> > not a math constant.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Dan
> > >> > ----------------------------------------------
> > >> > Never kick a cow flap on a hot day........
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> >
>
>

[Pt3]

Gauges are in inches, but when it comes to a computer aligner, then it is
easier to use degrees then fractions. Its a real paint to sit there and
watch the screen switch from one fraction to another and try to get them to
line up correctly and with the average car, the steering wheel is a major
concern as far as straightness. Most good aligners use three different
set-ups as far as toe goes. Inches(fractional) Inches(decimal)
Inches(degrees). I prefer either decimal or degree inch measuremnents.
It's just easier to control and more accurate. 1/16" in decimal is I
believe .13 of an inch and in decimal degrees it is .26 degrees. This makes
the adjustment more accurate.

Patrick

"TempestNightmare" <tempestnightmare@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:l9icnVXIf7B7fXOgXTWcrg@comcast.com...
> I agree...but when did they go to degrees for toe??? I have always done my
> 1:1's in inches...have done many track car set ups and my gauge is in
> inches..unless maybe you are using an alignment rack...
> Jon
>
> "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:xkzH9.25222$31.5539@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> > Sorry, but you are wrong... A 1/4" of toe is just that.....it has no
> > bearing on wheel size. You may be able to visualize it more on a larger
> > tire, but it is the same no matter. 1/4" of toe on a 12" tire is the
same
> > as if it was on a 20" tire.
> >
> > Patrick
> >
> >
> >
> > <chuck_steak@nospam.com> wrote in message
> > news:asm4s2$sih$3@bob.news.rcn.net...
> > > In article <GLsH9.35143$ic6.18220@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>,
> > > "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >Yes, Toe is measured in degrees as well. For 12 years I did nothing
> but
> > > >Alignments on real cars/trucks and the degrees is used to make it
> easier
> > to
> > > >do alignments on automobiles. One thing you have to remember is that
> > > >degrees is double that of inches. In other words....1/4" of toe is
..50
> > > >degrees.
> > >
> > >
> > > 1/4" of toe on a 20" truck rim/tire, is not the same angle
> > > as 1/4" toe on a 13" Honda rim/tire...
> > >
> > > It may work out that way on the 'average' car wheel/tire, but it is
> > > not a math constant.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dan
> > > ----------------------------------------------
> > > Never kick a cow flap on a hot day........
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Pt3]

Agreed, but in trying to convince someone that tire size does not matter
then the only way is to explain the way it is supposed to be measured. If
you are familiar with the pivot plates that aligners use then its easy to
understand. Those plates don't care what size tires you have, but where they
are pointing.

Patrick



"TempestNightmare" <tempestnightmare@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:za-dnQYxb8bQfnOgXTWc3w@comcast.com...
> Thats very misleading... the view is from the FRONT of the car looking
> straight on at the tires..not the top...Make it simple...sit your butt
down
> on the ground in front of your car....do the wheels point in towards each
> other?/ toe in, away from each other?/ toe out..does one wheel point out
> and the other straight or in?? you have a problem!!!LOL...
> Jon
>
> "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:s%zH9.25352$31.13398@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> > OK, this is an easy way of looking at it. Imagine you are above the car
> > looking down at the two front wheels. Now, for each wheel imagine a
> > complete circle around each wheel total of 360 degrees. Now you are
> looking
> > at where the wheel is pointing at one another. The measurement is
> absolute
> > and total toe is both added together. Look here and see what I'm
saying.
> >
> > http://www.hogantire.com/tcalignangles.htm
> >
> > Patrick
> >
> >
> >
> > "cruuk" <cruuk@interbaunxxx.com> wrote in message
> > news:klhtuu84npdpkirlkuaslgjooki235r5k3@4ax.com...
> > > i think what chuck is saying is where do you measure your 1/4" of toe
> > > from? is it in line with the tie rod? is it inline with the inside
> > > of the wheel, the outside of the tire? where? i can see how a degree
> > > would be constant to any wheel size but the measurement i dont see how
> > > it could be unless there is a standard place to take it.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, 05 Dec 2002 03:12:21 GMT, "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >TOE:
> > > >
> > > >This refers to the tilted direction of the wheels toward or away from
> one
> > > >another when viewed from the top. Toe is the most critical tire
wearing
> > > >angle. Tires that "toe-in" point toward one another. Tires that
> "toe-out"
> > > >point away from each other.
> > > >
> > > >I've been doing this for many years and it does not matter. Specs
are
> in
> > > >the machines for only one reason and tire size is not a factor when
it
> > comes
> > > >to toe. Camber on the other hand can be impacted by tire size only
> > because
> > > >the wider tires usually like a setting closer to "0", but not always.
> > > >Still, the measurement is in no way affected by the tire size, just
the
> > > >results of the angle.
> > > >
> > > >Patrick
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message
> > > >news:xkzH9.25222$31.5539@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> > > >> Sorry, but you are wrong... A 1/4" of toe is just that.....it has
no
> > > >> bearing on wheel size. You may be able to visualize it more on a
> > larger
> > > >> tire, but it is the same no matter. 1/4" of toe on a 12" tire is
the
> > same
> > > >> as if it was on a 20" tire.
> > > >>
> > > >> Patrick
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> <chuck_steak@nospam.com> wrote in message
> > > >> news:asm4s2$sih$3@bob.news.rcn.net...
> > > >> > In article <GLsH9.35143$ic6.18220@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>,
> > > >> > "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > >Yes, Toe is measured in degrees as well. For 12 years I did
> nothing
> > > >but
> > > >> > >Alignments on real cars/trucks and the degrees is used to make
it
> > > >easier
> > > >> to
> > > >> > >do alignments on automobiles. One thing you have to remember is
> > that
> > > >> > >degrees is double that of inches. In other words....1/4" of toe
> is
> > .50
> > > >> > >degrees.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > 1/4" of toe on a 20" truck rim/tire, is not the same angle
> > > >> > as 1/4" toe on a 13" Honda rim/tire...
> > > >> >
> > > >> > It may work out that way on the 'average' car wheel/tire, but it
is
> > > >> > not a math constant.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Dan
> > > >> > ----------------------------------------------
> > > >> > Never kick a cow flap on a hot day........
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Pt3]

Chuck, I can understand what you are talking about, but all I can tell you
is that a computer aligner sets a spot at the front of the vehicle at where
it determines the measurement will be made and that is doesn't matter what
size tire you are running, it is the same. Hunter has just come out with a
new machine that uses High resolution digital cameras as its sensors. I've
not actually seen this one in action, but one day I hope to. The aligner
itself takes the measurements itself and you follow the specs to see where
it needs to be. Just like an S-10 pickup can come with either 14" or 15"
tires and even 15" tires they can be P20575r15's or P23575r15's, the specs
are the same either way.
<chuck_steak@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:asm4s2$sih$3@bob.news.rcn.net...
> In article <GLsH9.35143$ic6.18220@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>,
> "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >Yes, Toe is measured in degrees as well. For 12 years I did nothing but
> >Alignments on real cars/trucks and the degrees is used to make it easier
to
> >do alignments on automobiles. One thing you have to remember is that
> >degrees is double that of inches. In other words....1/4" of toe is .50
> >degrees.
>
>
> 1/4" of toe on a 20" truck rim/tire, is not the same angle
> as 1/4" toe on a 13" Honda rim/tire...
>
> It may work out that way on the 'average' car wheel/tire, but it is
> not a math constant.
>
>
>
> Dan
> ----------------------------------------------
> Never kick a cow flap on a hot day........
>

[chuck_steak@nospam.com]

In article <xkzH9.25222$31.5539@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>,
"Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote:

>Sorry, but you are wrong... A 1/4" of toe is just that.....it has no
>bearing on wheel size. You may be able to visualize it more on a larger
>tire, but it is the same no matter. 1/4" of toe on a 12" tire is the same
>as if it was on a 20" tire.
>
>Patrick

I trust you have been doing it for a long time, and you
know what toe is.

So do I.

My contention was, and is, is that 1/4" of toe on a 26 inch truck
tire, is the same as a 1/4" toe on a golf cart, in inches.
BUT it is NOT the same in DEGREES, as you said.

If you jack your front end up on the truck, and spin the tires,
and score a line in the middle of the tires, and measure the distance
in the front, and then the back with a trammel. set the difference to 1/4"
Do the same with the golf cart.
Both will have 1/4" toe, but will be different angles.

It's just math.... you cannot say that 1/4" is "X" degrees, without
knowing the diameter of the tires.
The angle is a variable, not a constant,
in an equation where tire diameter is also a variable..


An easier way to visualize this would be to set your toe in on your
r/c car to 1/4".....
now ask yourself if it is the same angle, in degrees, as your car.
I think not.



Dan
----------------------------------------------
Never kick a cow flap on a hot day........

[Pt3]

*****My contention was, and is, is that 1/4" of toe on a 26 inch truck
tire, is the same as a 1/4" toe on a golf cart, in inches.
BUT it is NOT the same in DEGREES, as you said.*****

Ahh, I see what your looking at, however, in the real world, on a
Computerized alignment machine, they commonly use degrees as a unit of
measure when dealing with toe as to get the adjustment as close as possible.
This makes the adjustments more sensitive to change then when measuring in
inches. Rule of thumb is that the decimal inches as in .25" is double in
degrees which is .50 degrees, now this may only apply to the lower spectrum
of it, but none the less it is what is used. It's kind of like using a tape
measure to check the opening that must be a 1/4", you can get that head on,
but then take a caliper and almost 90% of the time it will not say .250"
thousandths and you adjust it to the calipers measure of a 1/4". Now you
are directly at 1/4". This is how the alignment machines use the degree
scale when measuring toe.

I understand that the angles just don't add up, but the machine uses a given
point in front of and behind the tire to measure this and it is way beyond
that of the tire itself. So given this, the tire size has no bearing since
the measurement is made way beyond that point. I don't pretend to know what
that measuring point is, but know it is there. Now all our talking here
might just be mute since we are talking about RC cars, the science is not as
precise as the real world.

I hope that this clears up what I was trying to convey.

Patrick



<chuck_steak@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:asnobl$8b2$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
> In article <xkzH9.25222$31.5539@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>,
> "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >Sorry, but you are wrong... A 1/4" of toe is just that.....it has no
> >bearing on wheel size. You may be able to visualize it more on a larger
> >tire, but it is the same no matter. 1/4" of toe on a 12" tire is the
same
> >as if it was on a 20" tire.
> >
> >Patrick
>
> I trust you have been doing it for a long time, and you
> know what toe is.
>
> So do I.
>
> My contention was, and is, is that 1/4" of toe on a 26 inch truck
> tire, is the same as a 1/4" toe on a golf cart, in inches.
> BUT it is NOT the same in DEGREES, as you said.
>
> If you jack your front end up on the truck, and spin the tires,
> and score a line in the middle of the tires, and measure the distance
> in the front, and then the back with a trammel. set the difference to 1/4"
> Do the same with the golf cart.
> Both will have 1/4" toe, but will be different angles.
>
> It's just math.... you cannot say that 1/4" is "X" degrees, without
> knowing the diameter of the tires.
> The angle is a variable, not a constant,
> in an equation where tire diameter is also a variable..
>
>
> An easier way to visualize this would be to set your toe in on your
> r/c car to 1/4".....
> now ask yourself if it is the same angle, in degrees, as your car.
> I think not.
>
>
>
> Dan
> ----------------------------------------------
> Never kick a cow flap on a hot day........
>

[cruuk]

most likely. thats what i was trying to determine before.. otherwise
it could be absolutely any measurement and be the same angle.


On Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:30:55 -0500, "MikeF" <vanning@comcast.net>
wrote:

>i suspect that when you check alignment on your 1:1 cars that you clamp some
>sort of bar fixture onto the tire - running horizontally. you then measure
>(1/4") from the ends of the bar fixture. Since you use the same bar for any
>size tire, lets say its 3 feet long, the tire diameter is irrelevant.
>Because you always use the same fixture, 1/4" of toe Always gives you the
>same angle in degrees.
>
>
>
>Pt3 <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message
>news:qcKH9.43215$ic6.33947@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
>> *****My contention was, and is, is that 1/4" of toe on a 26 inch truck
>> tire, is the same as a 1/4" toe on a golf cart, in inches.
>> BUT it is NOT the same in DEGREES, as you said.*****
>>
>> Ahh, I see what your looking at, however, in the real world, on a
>> Computerized alignment machine, they commonly use degrees as a unit of
>> measure when dealing with toe as to get the adjustment as close as
>possible.
>> This makes the adjustments more sensitive to change then when measuring in
>> inches. Rule of thumb is that the decimal inches as in .25" is double in
>> degrees which is .50 degrees, now this may only apply to the lower
>spectrum
>> of it, but none the less it is what is used. It's kind of like using a
>tape
>> measure to check the opening that must be a 1/4", you can get that head
>on,
>> but then take a caliper and almost 90% of the time it will not say .250"
>> thousandths and you adjust it to the calipers measure of a 1/4". Now you
>> are directly at 1/4". This is how the alignment machines use the degree
>> scale when measuring toe.
>>
>> I understand that the angles just don't add up, but the machine uses a
>given
>> point in front of and behind the tire to measure this and it is way beyond
>> that of the tire itself. So given this, the tire size has no bearing
>since
>> the measurement is made way beyond that point. I don't pretend to know
>what
>> that measuring point is, but know it is there. Now all our talking here
>> might just be mute since we are talking about RC cars, the science is not
>as
>> precise as the real world.
>>
>> I hope that this clears up what I was trying to convey.
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>>
>>
>> <chuck_steak@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:asnobl$8b2$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
>> > In article <xkzH9.25222$31.5539@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>,
>> > "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >Sorry, but you are wrong... A 1/4" of toe is just that.....it has no
>> > >bearing on wheel size. You may be able to visualize it more on a
>larger
>> > >tire, but it is the same no matter. 1/4" of toe on a 12" tire is the
>> same
>> > >as if it was on a 20" tire.
>> > >
>> > >Patrick
>> >
>> > I trust you have been doing it for a long time, and you
>> > know what toe is.
>> >
>> > So do I.
>> >
>> > My contention was, and is, is that 1/4" of toe on a 26 inch truck
>> > tire, is the same as a 1/4" toe on a golf cart, in inches.
>> > BUT it is NOT the same in DEGREES, as you said.
>> >
>> > If you jack your front end up on the truck, and spin the tires,
>> > and score a line in the middle of the tires, and measure the distance
>> > in the front, and then the back with a trammel. set the difference to
>1/4"
>> > Do the same with the golf cart.
>> > Both will have 1/4" toe, but will be different angles.
>> >
>> > It's just math.... you cannot say that 1/4" is "X" degrees, without
>> > knowing the diameter of the tires.
>> > The angle is a variable, not a constant,
>> > in an equation where tire diameter is also a variable..
>> >
>> >
>> > An easier way to visualize this would be to set your toe in on your
>> > r/c car to 1/4".....
>> > now ask yourself if it is the same angle, in degrees, as your car.
>> > I think not.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Dan
>> > ----------------------------------------------
>> > Never kick a cow flap on a hot day........
>> >
>>
>>
>

[MikeF]

i suspect that when you check alignment on your 1:1 cars that you clamp some
sort of bar fixture onto the tire - running horizontally. you then measure
(1/4") from the ends of the bar fixture. Since you use the same bar for any
size tire, lets say its 3 feet long, the tire diameter is irrelevant.
Because you always use the same fixture, 1/4" of toe Always gives you the
same angle in degrees.



Pt3 <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:qcKH9.43215$ic6.33947@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
> *****My contention was, and is, is that 1/4" of toe on a 26 inch truck
> tire, is the same as a 1/4" toe on a golf cart, in inches.
> BUT it is NOT the same in DEGREES, as you said.*****
>
> Ahh, I see what your looking at, however, in the real world, on a
> Computerized alignment machine, they commonly use degrees as a unit of
> measure when dealing with toe as to get the adjustment as close as
possible.
> This makes the adjustments more sensitive to change then when measuring in
> inches. Rule of thumb is that the decimal inches as in .25" is double in
> degrees which is .50 degrees, now this may only apply to the lower
spectrum
> of it, but none the less it is what is used. It's kind of like using a
tape
> measure to check the opening that must be a 1/4", you can get that head
on,
> but then take a caliper and almost 90% of the time it will not say .250"
> thousandths and you adjust it to the calipers measure of a 1/4". Now you
> are directly at 1/4". This is how the alignment machines use the degree
> scale when measuring toe.
>
> I understand that the angles just don't add up, but the machine uses a
given
> point in front of and behind the tire to measure this and it is way beyond
> that of the tire itself. So given this, the tire size has no bearing
since
> the measurement is made way beyond that point. I don't pretend to know
what
> that measuring point is, but know it is there. Now all our talking here
> might just be mute since we are talking about RC cars, the science is not
as
> precise as the real world.
>
> I hope that this clears up what I was trying to convey.
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
> <chuck_steak@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:asnobl$8b2$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
> > In article <xkzH9.25222$31.5539@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>,
> > "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Sorry, but you are wrong... A 1/4" of toe is just that.....it has no
> > >bearing on wheel size. You may be able to visualize it more on a
larger
> > >tire, but it is the same no matter. 1/4" of toe on a 12" tire is the
> same
> > >as if it was on a 20" tire.
> > >
> > >Patrick
> >
> > I trust you have been doing it for a long time, and you
> > know what toe is.
> >
> > So do I.
> >
> > My contention was, and is, is that 1/4" of toe on a 26 inch truck
> > tire, is the same as a 1/4" toe on a golf cart, in inches.
> > BUT it is NOT the same in DEGREES, as you said.
> >
> > If you jack your front end up on the truck, and spin the tires,
> > and score a line in the middle of the tires, and measure the distance
> > in the front, and then the back with a trammel. set the difference to
1/4"
> > Do the same with the golf cart.
> > Both will have 1/4" toe, but will be different angles.
> >
> > It's just math.... you cannot say that 1/4" is "X" degrees, without
> > knowing the diameter of the tires.
> > The angle is a variable, not a constant,
> > in an equation where tire diameter is also a variable..
> >
> >
> > An easier way to visualize this would be to set your toe in on your
> > r/c car to 1/4".....
> > now ask yourself if it is the same angle, in degrees, as your car.
> > I think not.
> >
> >
> >
> > Dan
> > ----------------------------------------------
> > Never kick a cow flap on a hot day........
> >
>
>

[Pt3]

Yes it is a standardized bar which is approx. 38", but I'd have to measure
it to make sure. Think of it this way as it was explained to me. A circle
(protractor) with a tire on it. A 1 degree change is a one degree change no
matter what the size of the tire is. This is one of the reasons they prefer
the use of degrees as a unit of measure. Now you constantly see the old
"measure the center of the tire in front and in back" and that will tell you
what the toe is set at. But, like you say, the tire size is a factor in
that measurement because as the tire size increases the measurement between
the tires center lines will decrease when we are talking about toe-in.. For
instance a measurement on a tire that is say 14" and one that is 20" will be
different because the center lines of the tire are now closer together on
the 20" then the 14". The industry came up with a standard that would apply
to all in relation as to how far in front of the vehicle the measurement
would be taken. Like I said before, I don't know what the standard is
though and for the sake of this conversation I wish I did.

Now, when using degrees as a unit of measure, it really doesn't matter, but
fractions would as the further you get away from the center the more the
measurement will increase or decrease depending on whether it is toe-in or
toe-out. Now since the invent of the computerized alignment machine I
believe that they have been measuring toe in degrees and then converting
them to fractional measurements as according to the standard. These sensors
are going to measure in an arch which will mean degrees. Now how far that
arch extends to the point at which they would measure the fractional inches
should be the standard, but I'm not sure.

Well I'm rambling on now and might be contradicting my self so I had better
stop.

Patrick


"MikeF" <vanning@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:TsqcnQuk6cumWXKgXTWc3g@comcast.com...
> i suspect that when you check alignment on your 1:1 cars that you clamp
some
> sort of bar fixture onto the tire - running horizontally. you then measure
> (1/4") from the ends of the bar fixture. Since you use the same bar for
any
> size tire, lets say its 3 feet long, the tire diameter is irrelevant.
> Because you always use the same fixture, 1/4" of toe Always gives you the
> same angle in degrees.
>
>
>
> Pt3 <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:qcKH9.43215$ic6.33947@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
> > *****My contention was, and is, is that 1/4" of toe on a 26 inch truck
> > tire, is the same as a 1/4" toe on a golf cart, in inches.
> > BUT it is NOT the same in DEGREES, as you said.*****
> >
> > Ahh, I see what your looking at, however, in the real world, on a
> > Computerized alignment machine, they commonly use degrees as a unit of
> > measure when dealing with toe as to get the adjustment as close as
> possible.
> > This makes the adjustments more sensitive to change then when measuring
in
> > inches. Rule of thumb is that the decimal inches as in .25" is double
in
> > degrees which is .50 degrees, now this may only apply to the lower
> spectrum
> > of it, but none the less it is what is used. It's kind of like using a
> tape
> > measure to check the opening that must be a 1/4", you can get that head
> on,
> > but then take a caliper and almost 90% of the time it will not say .250"
> > thousandths and you adjust it to the calipers measure of a 1/4". Now
you
> > are directly at 1/4". This is how the alignment machines use the degree
> > scale when measuring toe.
> >
> > I understand that the angles just don't add up, but the machine uses a
> given
> > point in front of and behind the tire to measure this and it is way
beyond
> > that of the tire itself. So given this, the tire size has no bearing
> since
> > the measurement is made way beyond that point. I don't pretend to know
> what
> > that measuring point is, but know it is there. Now all our talking here
> > might just be mute since we are talking about RC cars, the science is
not
> as
> > precise as the real world.
> >
> > I hope that this clears up what I was trying to convey.
> >
> > Patrick
> >
> >
> >
> > <chuck_steak@nospam.com> wrote in message
> > news:asnobl$8b2$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
> > > In article <xkzH9.25222$31.5539@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>,
> > > "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >Sorry, but you are wrong... A 1/4" of toe is just that.....it has no
> > > >bearing on wheel size. You may be able to visualize it more on a
> larger
> > > >tire, but it is the same no matter. 1/4" of toe on a 12" tire is the
> > same
> > > >as if it was on a 20" tire.
> > > >
> > > >Patrick
> > >
> > > I trust you have been doing it for a long time, and you
> > > know what toe is.
> > >
> > > So do I.
> > >
> > > My contention was, and is, is that 1/4" of toe on a 26 inch truck
> > > tire, is the same as a 1/4" toe on a golf cart, in inches.
> > > BUT it is NOT the same in DEGREES, as you said.
> > >
> > > If you jack your front end up on the truck, and spin the tires,
> > > and score a line in the middle of the tires, and measure the distance
> > > in the front, and then the back with a trammel. set the difference to
> 1/4"
> > > Do the same with the golf cart.
> > > Both will have 1/4" toe, but will be different angles.
> > >
> > > It's just math.... you cannot say that 1/4" is "X" degrees, without
> > > knowing the diameter of the tires.
> > > The angle is a variable, not a constant,
> > > in an equation where tire diameter is also a variable..
> > >
> > >
> > > An easier way to visualize this would be to set your toe in on your
> > > r/c car to 1/4".....
> > > now ask yourself if it is the same angle, in degrees, as your car.
> > > I think not.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dan
> > > ----------------------------------------------
> > > Never kick a cow flap on a hot day........
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[TempestNightmare]

I agree with you completly!! Tire size means nothing..
Jon

"Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:RGBH9.25711$31.16136@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> Agreed, but in trying to convince someone that tire size does not matter
> then the only way is to explain the way it is supposed to be measured. If
> you are familiar with the pivot plates that aligners use then its easy to
> understand. Those plates don't care what size tires you have, but where
they
> are pointing.
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
> "TempestNightmare" <tempestnightmare@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:za-dnQYxb8bQfnOgXTWc3w@comcast.com...
> > Thats very misleading... the view is from the FRONT of the car looking
> > straight on at the tires..not the top...Make it simple...sit your butt
> down
> > on the ground in front of your car....do the wheels point in towards
each
> > other?/ toe in, away from each other?/ toe out..does one wheel point
out
> > and the other straight or in?? you have a problem!!!LOL...
> > Jon
> >
> > "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message
> > news:s%zH9.25352$31.13398@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> > > OK, this is an easy way of looking at it. Imagine you are above the
car
> > > looking down at the two front wheels. Now, for each wheel imagine a
> > > complete circle around each wheel total of 360 degrees. Now you are
> > looking
> > > at where the wheel is pointing at one another. The measurement is
> > absolute
> > > and total toe is both added together. Look here and see what I'm
> saying.
> > >
> > > http://www.hogantire.com/tcalignangles.htm
> > >
> > > Patrick
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "cruuk" <cruuk@interbaunxxx.com> wrote in message
> > > news:klhtuu84npdpkirlkuaslgjooki235r5k3@4ax.com...
> > > > i think what chuck is saying is where do you measure your 1/4" of
toe
> > > > from? is it in line with the tie rod? is it inline with the inside
> > > > of the wheel, the outside of the tire? where? i can see how a
degree
> > > > would be constant to any wheel size but the measurement i dont see
how
> > > > it could be unless there is a standard place to take it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, 05 Dec 2002 03:12:21 GMT, "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >TOE:
> > > > >
> > > > >This refers to the tilted direction of the wheels toward or away
from
> > one
> > > > >another when viewed from the top. Toe is the most critical tire
> wearing
> > > > >angle. Tires that "toe-in" point toward one another. Tires that
> > "toe-out"
> > > > >point away from each other.
> > > > >
> > > > >I've been doing this for many years and it does not matter. Specs
> are
> > in
> > > > >the machines for only one reason and tire size is not a factor when
> it
> > > comes
> > > > >to toe. Camber on the other hand can be impacted by tire size only
> > > because
> > > > >the wider tires usually like a setting closer to "0", but not
always.
> > > > >Still, the measurement is in no way affected by the tire size, just
> the
> > > > >results of the angle.
> > > > >
> > > > >Patrick
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >"Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message
> > > > >news:xkzH9.25222$31.5539@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> > > > >> Sorry, but you are wrong... A 1/4" of toe is just that.....it
has
> no
> > > > >> bearing on wheel size. You may be able to visualize it more on a
> > > larger
> > > > >> tire, but it is the same no matter. 1/4" of toe on a 12" tire is
> the
> > > same
> > > > >> as if it was on a 20" tire.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Patrick
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> <chuck_steak@nospam.com> wrote in message
> > > > >> news:asm4s2$sih$3@bob.news.rcn.net...
> > > > >> > In article <GLsH9.35143$ic6.18220@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>,
> > > > >> > "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > >Yes, Toe is measured in degrees as well. For 12 years I did
> > nothing
> > > > >but
> > > > >> > >Alignments on real cars/trucks and the degrees is used to make
> it
> > > > >easier
> > > > >> to
> > > > >> > >do alignments on automobiles. One thing you have to remember
is
> > > that
> > > > >> > >degrees is double that of inches. In other words....1/4" of
toe
> > is
> > > .50
> > > > >> > >degrees.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > 1/4" of toe on a 20" truck rim/tire, is not the same angle
> > > > >> > as 1/4" toe on a 13" Honda rim/tire...
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > It may work out that way on the 'average' car wheel/tire, but
it
> is
> > > > >> > not a math constant.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Dan
> > > > >> > ----------------------------------------------
> > > > >> > Never kick a cow flap on a hot day........
> > > > >> >
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[TempestNightmare]

Cool..only used a rack once...in tech school years ago...I built my cars in
my garage and the equipment I have is all manual...cant afford a rack for
the garage!!LOL
Jon

"Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:JCBH9.25697$31.12645@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> Gauges are in inches, but when it comes to a computer aligner, then it is
> easier to use degrees then fractions. Its a real paint to sit there and
> watch the screen switch from one fraction to another and try to get them
to
> line up correctly and with the average car, the steering wheel is a major
> concern as far as straightness. Most good aligners use three different
> set-ups as far as toe goes. Inches(fractional) Inches(decimal)
> Inches(degrees). I prefer either decimal or degree inch measuremnents.
> It's just easier to control and more accurate. 1/16" in decimal is I
> believe .13 of an inch and in decimal degrees it is .26 degrees. This
makes
> the adjustment more accurate.
>
> Patrick
>
> "TempestNightmare" <tempestnightmare@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:l9icnVXIf7B7fXOgXTWcrg@comcast.com...
> > I agree...but when did they go to degrees for toe??? I have always done
my
> > 1:1's in inches...have done many track car set ups and my gauge is in
> > inches..unless maybe you are using an alignment rack...
> > Jon
> >
> > "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message
> > news:xkzH9.25222$31.5539@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> > > Sorry, but you are wrong... A 1/4" of toe is just that.....it has no
> > > bearing on wheel size. You may be able to visualize it more on a
larger
> > > tire, but it is the same no matter. 1/4" of toe on a 12" tire is the
> same
> > > as if it was on a 20" tire.
> > >
> > > Patrick
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > <chuck_steak@nospam.com> wrote in message
> > > news:asm4s2$sih$3@bob.news.rcn.net...
> > > > In article <GLsH9.35143$ic6.18220@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>,
> > > > "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >Yes, Toe is measured in degrees as well. For 12 years I did
nothing
> > but
> > > > >Alignments on real cars/trucks and the degrees is used to make it
> > easier
> > > to
> > > > >do alignments on automobiles. One thing you have to remember is
that
> > > > >degrees is double that of inches. In other words....1/4" of toe is
> .50
> > > > >degrees.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 1/4" of toe on a 20" truck rim/tire, is not the same angle
> > > > as 1/4" toe on a 13" Honda rim/tire...
> > > >
> > > > It may work out that way on the 'average' car wheel/tire, but it is
> > > > not a math constant.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dan
> > > > ----------------------------------------------
> > > > Never kick a cow flap on a hot day........
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Pt3]

Dude....you should see the new Aligners.....they use Digital cameras.......
I don't really know too much about them though.

Patrick




"TempestNightmare" <tempestnightmare@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:hZadnbfDwrydmm2gXTWc3g@comcast.com...
> Cool..only used a rack once...in tech school years ago...I built my cars
in
> my garage and the equipment I have is all manual...cant afford a rack for
> the garage!!LOL
> Jon
>
> "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:JCBH9.25697$31.12645@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> > Gauges are in inches, but when it comes to a computer aligner, then it
is
> > easier to use degrees then fractions. Its a real paint to sit there and
> > watch the screen switch from one fraction to another and try to get them
> to
> > line up correctly and with the average car, the steering wheel is a
major
> > concern as far as straightness. Most good aligners use three different
> > set-ups as far as toe goes. Inches(fractional) Inches(decimal)
> > Inches(degrees). I prefer either decimal or degree inch measuremnents.
> > It's just easier to control and more accurate. 1/16" in decimal is I
> > believe .13 of an inch and in decimal degrees it is .26 degrees. This
> makes
> > the adjustment more accurate.
> >
> > Patrick
> >
> > "TempestNightmare" <tempestnightmare@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:l9icnVXIf7B7fXOgXTWcrg@comcast.com...
> > > I agree...but when did they go to degrees for toe??? I have always
done
> my
> > > 1:1's in inches...have done many track car set ups and my gauge is in
> > > inches..unless maybe you are using an alignment rack...
> > > Jon
> > >
> > > "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message
> > > news:xkzH9.25222$31.5539@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> > > > Sorry, but you are wrong... A 1/4" of toe is just that.....it has
no
> > > > bearing on wheel size. You may be able to visualize it more on a
> larger
> > > > tire, but it is the same no matter. 1/4" of toe on a 12" tire is
the
> > same
> > > > as if it was on a 20" tire.
> > > >
> > > > Patrick
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > <chuck_steak@nospam.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:asm4s2$sih$3@bob.news.rcn.net...
> > > > > In article <GLsH9.35143$ic6.18220@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>,
> > > > > "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >Yes, Toe is measured in degrees as well. For 12 years I did
> nothing
> > > but
> > > > > >Alignments on real cars/trucks and the degrees is used to make it
> > > easier
> > > > to
> > > > > >do alignments on automobiles. One thing you have to remember is
> that
> > > > > >degrees is double that of inches. In other words....1/4" of toe
is
> > .50
> > > > > >degrees.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 1/4" of toe on a 20" truck rim/tire, is not the same angle
> > > > > as 1/4" toe on a 13" Honda rim/tire...
> > > > >
> > > > > It may work out that way on the 'average' car wheel/tire, but it
is
> > > > > not a math constant.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dan
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------
> > > > > Never kick a cow flap on a hot day........
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[chuck_steak@nospam.com]

In article <J8SdnTXfmdvbm22gXTWcqw@comcast.com>,
"TempestNightmare" <tempestnightmare@comcast.net> wrote:

>I agree with you completly!! Tire size means nothing..
>Jon

I'm very sorry.
it absolutely does, with regard to the ORIGINAL point of this
conversation.

it was said, that the relationship between the inches,
and degrees, was a constant.
It just cannot be. It is a variable.

You CANNOT say that X inches of toe = Y degrees
without consideration of the tire diameter..

1/4" of toe on your go kart, is different than 1/4" on your pickup,
with regard to the number of degrees the wheel is off, from parallel
to the centerline of your chassis!!

They can have the same toe, they can have the same degrees,
but they can't have the same toe AND same degrees!!

Here's how it works out.

You have a 32" truck tire, a 20" car tire, and a 12" kart tire.
You want 1/4" toe on all. easy enough.
The 32" truck tire would have a toe angle of ~.45 degrees
The 20" car tire would have a toe angle of ~.73 degrees
The 12" kart tire would have a toe angle of ~1.2 degrees.

The inverse would be, that if you wanted .45 degrees on all,
the truck would be ~1/4"
and the car would be ~5/32"
the kart would be ~1/16"

But you CANNOT say that they are all 1/4" AND .45 degrees!

Adios....

[Pt3]

Chuck, if that's the way you want to look at it then fine. But, in the real
world, if you align a Chevy Pick-up with the standard tire......usually a
205 or 215r15 to a total toe of 1/16" and then change the tires to
35's....tires more then three times the size of the original tire. Then,
stick that same vehicle back on that same machine, it will still be at 1/16"
total toe. Toe is measured as an Angle(degrees) and then converted to
fractional inches if desired. Just like you see Toe plates in Inspection
stations. These plates typically read the angle of the Toe as it runs up on
the plate. Now the plate itself usually has a fractional inches scale to
reflect the Toe In or Out.

Now, if Jon is using the type of toe gauge I think he is using, then he will
be able to verify this fact. Also, he said he went to Alignment School ( I
went to the Hunter School Myself) then he knows that the tire size has no
bearing on how he does the alignment nor does he have to make any
adjustments for tire size. Now, given this fact, a good alignment Tech will
however make some modification to the factory spec to help a customers tire
wear. Typically not toe, but on occasion we will. Usually the modification
is made when a customer puts wider tires on the car and we will try to get
the Camber closer to zero to help with the tire wear. Camber will wear
tires that are wider because it effectively changes the rotational speed of
a tire from inside to outside. On a tire with too much positive Camber, the
outside of the tire is traveling slower then the inside of the tire and
therefore wears the outside edge of the tire. So, on wider tires, this is
compounded.

Patrick


<chuck_steak@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:asp69d$5jt$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
> In article <J8SdnTXfmdvbm22gXTWcqw@comcast.com>,
> "TempestNightmare" <tempestnightmare@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >I agree with you completly!! Tire size means nothing..
> >Jon
>
> I'm very sorry.
> it absolutely does, with regard to the ORIGINAL point of this
> conversation.
>
> it was said, that the relationship between the inches,
> and degrees, was a constant.
> It just cannot be. It is a variable.
>
> You CANNOT say that X inches of toe = Y degrees
> without consideration of the tire diameter..
>
> 1/4" of toe on your go kart, is different than 1/4" on your pickup,
> with regard to the number of degrees the wheel is off, from parallel
> to the centerline of your chassis!!
>
> They can have the same toe, they can have the same degrees,
> but they can't have the same toe AND same degrees!!
>
> Here's how it works out.
>
> You have a 32" truck tire, a 20" car tire, and a 12" kart tire.
> You want 1/4" toe on all. easy enough.
> The 32" truck tire would have a toe angle of ~.45 degrees
> The 20" car tire would have a toe angle of ~.73 degrees
> The 12" kart tire would have a toe angle of ~1.2 degrees.
>
> The inverse would be, that if you wanted .45 degrees on all,
> the truck would be ~1/4"
> and the car would be ~5/32"
> the kart would be ~1/16"
>
> But you CANNOT say that they are all 1/4" AND .45 degrees!
>
> Adios....

[chuck_steak@nospam.com]

In article <OlWH9.27591$31.14948@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>,
"Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote:

>Chuck, if that's the way you want to look at it then fine.

Pt, it isn't the way that "I" want to look at it, it's the way
it is in science.

Now, your machines may be constructed, and used in a way,
that all of the information required just isn't there, or at least,
visible to you, because it is not necessary
to do your job.. You only need to know one thing.
How many degrees does the machine tell you to set the front end at.
The machine does the computing, and you do the adjusting.

While I have not personally used the new laser/optical machines,
I'm willing to bet that you enter the vehicle into a computer,
and it gives you the specs?
If it is expressed in degrees, which is the only number it can give you,
it is doing so, based on the information using the tires that came
on the vehicle. Other wise, there would be no need to enter the information.
You would automatically align to "X" degrees.
The computer is taking the diameter portion out of the equation,
to make it easier for you, and giving you an accurate 'number' to adjust to...

Hunter, or Snap-on, or any other tool company,
can't change science.
You can change the way a tool is used, or how it is calibrated,
to give you a relative reference, and make it nearly foolproof to use,
but you cannot change the science of the task it is performing internally...

If you run your vehicle, on the rims, then it's not a problem.
But if you run them on the tires, then it is.
True toe, is the difference measured at the front and rear of the tire.

I'm not saying that your computer laser machine is not right,
it is right. And much more accurate than ever.
I'm saying it does the figuring for you, and gives you a number,
in degrees, that enables you to do an accurate job.
But in it's programming, where the settings are being computed,
the tire size is taken into account..

A proportional example (formula) for toe angle would be,

if you had a toe angle of T(1) with a diameter D(1)
and you wanted to change tires, but keep the same toe angle,

T(1)/D(1) = T(2)/D(2)
then:
T(2) = T(1) x D(2)/D(1)

All of this stuff is being computed FOR you, by your machine.
The fact that you don't see it happening, DOESN'T mean it isn't!!

Like when you ask a computer to do the square root of a 10 digit
number. It gives you the answer, you just don't see it doing the work...


>But, in the real world

In the real world of racing, where the toe is measured in 1/100ths,
the tire diameter IS considered..
Nobody would ever say that they run "X" degrees. They would express the
number in a fractional form. Once the optimum setting has been found,
then indeed, you would use the degrees, because that is the expression
used by the optical unit.
But if you changed to a smaller/larger tire, you would refigure your
angular setting, to achieve the same measured setting..
By using the above formula.

You just can't say that 1/8" of toe is equal to "X" degrees..
You can if you are talking about only one vehicle/tire size.
But if you make the comparison for all situations, you will be wrong..
You can't do it, if they run different sized tires..
It's math, plain and simple.
It's what makes that machine so good... and expensive!!

take care.




Dan
----------------------------------------------
Never kick a cow flap on a hot day........

[TempestNightmare]

True...if you measure from the OD of the tire...but if you attach a 36"beam
to the rim, there is a constant...( I do believe one of the other posts said
the new racks use a 36" beam). Therefore, tire diameter is not a factor...
Jon

<chuck_steak@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:asp69d$5jt$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
> In article <J8SdnTXfmdvbm22gXTWcqw@comcast.com>,
> "TempestNightmare" <tempestnightmare@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >I agree with you completly!! Tire size means nothing..
> >Jon
>
> I'm very sorry.
> it absolutely does, with regard to the ORIGINAL point of this
> conversation.
>
> it was said, that the relationship between the inches,
> and degrees, was a constant.
> It just cannot be. It is a variable.
>
> You CANNOT say that X inches of toe = Y degrees
> without consideration of the tire diameter..
>
> 1/4" of toe on your go kart, is different than 1/4" on your pickup,
> with regard to the number of degrees the wheel is off, from parallel
> to the centerline of your chassis!!
>
> They can have the same toe, they can have the same degrees,
> but they can't have the same toe AND same degrees!!
>
> Here's how it works out.
>
> You have a 32" truck tire, a 20" car tire, and a 12" kart tire.
> You want 1/4" toe on all. easy enough.
> The 32" truck tire would have a toe angle of ~.45 degrees
> The 20" car tire would have a toe angle of ~.73 degrees
> The 12" kart tire would have a toe angle of ~1.2 degrees.
>
> The inverse would be, that if you wanted .45 degrees on all,
> the truck would be ~1/4"
> and the car would be ~5/32"
> the kart would be ~1/16"
>
> But you CANNOT say that they are all 1/4" AND .45 degrees!
>
> Adios....

[TempestNightmare]

Well stated Pat!!!
Jon

"Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:OlWH9.27591$31.14948@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> Chuck, if that's the way you want to look at it then fine. But, in the
real
> world, if you align a Chevy Pick-up with the standard tire......usually a
> 205 or 215r15 to a total toe of 1/16" and then change the tires to
> 35's....tires more then three times the size of the original tire. Then,
> stick that same vehicle back on that same machine, it will still be at
1/16"
> total toe. Toe is measured as an Angle(degrees) and then converted to
> fractional inches if desired. Just like you see Toe plates in Inspection
> stations. These plates typically read the angle of the Toe as it runs up
on
> the plate. Now the plate itself usually has a fractional inches scale to
> reflect the Toe In or Out.
>
> Now, if Jon is using the type of toe gauge I think he is using, then he
will
> be able to verify this fact. Also, he said he went to Alignment School ( I
> went to the Hunter School Myself) then he knows that the tire size has no
> bearing on how he does the alignment nor does he have to make any
> adjustments for tire size. Now, given this fact, a good alignment Tech
will
> however make some modification to the factory spec to help a customers
tire
> wear. Typically not toe, but on occasion we will. Usually the
modification
> is made when a customer puts wider tires on the car and we will try to get
> the Camber closer to zero to help with the tire wear. Camber will wear
> tires that are wider because it effectively changes the rotational speed
of
> a tire from inside to outside. On a tire with too much positive Camber,
the
> outside of the tire is traveling slower then the inside of the tire and
> therefore wears the outside edge of the tire. So, on wider tires, this is
> compounded.
>
> Patrick
>
>
> <chuck_steak@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:asp69d$5jt$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
> > In article <J8SdnTXfmdvbm22gXTWcqw@comcast.com>,
> > "TempestNightmare" <tempestnightmare@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > >I agree with you completly!! Tire size means nothing..
> > >Jon
> >
> > I'm very sorry.
> > it absolutely does, with regard to the ORIGINAL point of this
> > conversation.
> >
> > it was said, that the relationship between the inches,
> > and degrees, was a constant.
> > It just cannot be. It is a variable.
> >
> > You CANNOT say that X inches of toe = Y degrees
> > without consideration of the tire diameter..
> >
> > 1/4" of toe on your go kart, is different than 1/4" on your pickup,
> > with regard to the number of degrees the wheel is off, from parallel
> > to the centerline of your chassis!!
> >
> > They can have the same toe, they can have the same degrees,
> > but they can't have the same toe AND same degrees!!
> >
> > Here's how it works out.
> >
> > You have a 32" truck tire, a 20" car tire, and a 12" kart tire.
> > You want 1/4" toe on all. easy enough.
> > The 32" truck tire would have a toe angle of ~.45 degrees
> > The 20" car tire would have a toe angle of ~.73 degrees
> > The 12" kart tire would have a toe angle of ~1.2 degrees.
> >
> > The inverse would be, that if you wanted .45 degrees on all,
> > the truck would be ~1/4"
> > and the car would be ~5/32"
> > the kart would be ~1/16"
> >
> > But you CANNOT say that they are all 1/4" AND .45 degrees!
> >
> > Adios....
>
>

[Pt3]

Chuck, here's the skinny on how it works. First off, specs that are input
into the computer as far as the vehicle is concerned have no bearing on what
you are doing other then the fact that it is giving you what the car, truck,
etc. is supposed to be set at. The specs do nothing more then set the
vehicles tolerances. In other words, if the spec is 1/16" + or - 1/16",
then the machine will let you know when you are out of tolerance. If you
had a book of specs and you preferred to do it that way, the alignment will
be no different then if the spec was input into the system. The Machine
does not care what size tires the car came with nor what size is on it at
the time.

Hunter and most other aligners actually measure all alignment
angles(degrees). The aligner
can convert this angle into a linear(inches) measurement for display
purposes ONLY. In other words the readouts on the screen are derived from
the sensors attached to the wheels and not the wheels themselves. It
calculates the angles that are formed by the 4 sensors and then displays the
results as camber, caster, toe, etc. The aligner can take a toe reading
that was measured in degrees, apply a standard formula, and compute what
that would approximately be in inches.

If you were to stick a vehicle on the machine and input what car you were
working on and align it. Then put it back on and input no spec and check the
actual alignment, the readings would be identical. When you put specs in,
all it is really doing is letting you display where the adjustments might be
on a certain vehicle, what type of shim is required......you can even place
a rear shim on the screen and it will tell you where it must be cut in order
to work correctly. It will also tell you what specialty tools might be
required. You can even go in and reduce the tolerance range for yourself to
make sure the alignment is closer then what the factory will allow. Like I
said before, all angles are measured in degrees and then converted to linear
inches for display. In my case, I don't even care, I just go with the
degree scale since it is the most accurate. This is the way wheel alignments
have been done since the early 70's and before actually. Even the
Lite-A-Line (mid to late 60's) measured in degrees, but it was just
displayed in inches on the board in front of you.

I'm sorry the science doesn't follow this, but it is the way its done and
has been done for many years. The industry has accepted this standard for a
long time now. I understand that the math does not compute, but toe is no
longer measured from the center line of the tire nor has it been for years
now. When you see the explanation of how toe is measured( in books and
other materials ) and they show the center line of the tire in front and
back, its for those who need an idea of what is being measured, but going
into how it is actually measured may be too difficult to understand.

I'm sorry if I'm being critical about this, but Computer Alignments were my
specialty for years and still are as a matter of fact. I've recently gone
in and trained a few Techs on how to do alignments. I am in no way
dismissing what you are saying, but am simply telling how it is done and has
been done for many years now.

Patrick



<chuck_steak@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:asqk3g$mkh$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
> In article <OlWH9.27591$31.14948@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>,
> "Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >Chuck, if that's the way you want to look at it then fine.
>
> Pt, it isn't the way that "I" want to look at it, it's the way
> it is in science.
>
> Now, your machines may be constructed, and used in a way,
> that all of the information required just isn't there, or at least,
> visible to you, because it is not necessary
> to do your job.. You only need to know one thing.
> How many degrees does the machine tell you to set the front end at.
> The machine does the computing, and you do the adjusting.
>
> While I have not personally used the new laser/optical machines,
> I'm willing to bet that you enter the vehicle into a computer,
> and it gives you the specs?
> If it is expressed in degrees, which is the only number it can give you,
> it is doing so, based on the information using the tires that came
> on the vehicle. Other wise, there would be no need to enter the
information.
> You would automatically align to "X" degrees.
> The computer is taking the diameter portion out of the equation,
> to make it easier for you, and giving you an accurate 'number' to adjust
to...
>
> Hunter, or Snap-on, or any other tool company,
> can't change science.
> You can change the way a tool is used, or how it is calibrated,
> to give you a relative reference, and make it nearly foolproof to use,
> but you cannot change the science of the task it is performing
internally...
>
> If you run your vehicle, on the rims, then it's not a problem.
> But if you run them on the tires, then it is.
> True toe, is the difference measured at the front and rear of the tire.
>
> I'm not saying that your computer laser machine is not right,
> it is right. And much more accurate than ever.
> I'm saying it does the figuring for you, and gives you a number,
> in degrees, that enables you to do an accurate job.
> But in it's programming, where the settings are being computed,
> the tire size is taken into account..
>
> A proportional example (formula) for toe angle would be,
>
> if you had a toe angle of T(1) with a diameter D(1)
> and you wanted to change tires, but keep the same toe angle,
>
> T(1)/D(1) = T(2)/D(2)
> then:
> T(2) = T(1) x D(2)/D(1)
>
> All of this stuff is being computed FOR you, by your machine.
> The fact that you don't see it happening, DOESN'T mean it isn't!!
>
> Like when you ask a computer to do the square root of a 10 digit
> number. It gives you the answer, you just don't see it doing the work...
>
>
> >But, in the real world
>
> In the real world of racing, where the toe is measured in 1/100ths,
> the tire diameter IS considered..
> Nobody would ever say that they run "X" degrees. They would express the
> number in a fractional form. Once the optimum setting has been found,
> then indeed, you would use the degrees, because that is the expression
> used by the optical unit.
> But if you changed to a smaller/larger tire, you would refigure your
> angular setting, to achieve the same measured setting..
> By using the above formula.
>
> You just can't say that 1/8" of toe is equal to "X" degrees..
> You can if you are talking about only one vehicle/tire size.
> But if you make the comparison for all situations, you will be wrong..
> You can't do it, if they run different sized tires..
> It's math, plain and simple.
> It's what makes that machine so good... and expensive!!
>
> take care.
>
>
>
>
> Dan
> ----------------------------------------------
> Never kick a cow flap on a hot day........
>

[Jonny Hodgson]

Pt3 <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message news:ohhI9.3975$6W4.1851@nwrddc04.gnilink.net...

<snip>
> I'm sorry the science doesn't follow this, but it is the way its done and
> has been done for many years. The industry has accepted this standard for a
> long time now. I understand that the math does not compute, but toe is no
> longer measured from the center line of the tire nor has it been for years
> now. When you see the explanation of how toe is measured( in books and
> other materials ) and they show the center line of the tire in front and
> back, its for those who need an idea of what is being measured, but going
> into how it is actually measured may be too difficult to understand.
<snip>

Thanks for the info on 1:1 car measurement - I certainly had no idea
that the standard was to use a 36" bar as opposed to the tread
centreline itself.

Does that mean that the "-1.0 to +1.0 mm" front and "0 to 4.0mm" rear
specified in my Haynes manual (Fiat Bravo) is referring to said
standard bar too? Or should it be a 914.4 mm long bar? ;-)


I do feel, though, that this whole thread has exploded way out of
proportion and has also become very off topic - anyone measuring
toe on a 1:10th scale car is very unlikely to do so with a 36" long
reference bar ;-), and in fact will either do so directly in degrees
using a camber gauge, or will probably measure from the tyre CL
because that's what's easiest to do with a typical toe gauge...

Also, Dan wrote:

> > In the real world of racing, where the toe is measured in 1/100ths,
> > the tire diameter IS considered..
> > Nobody would ever say that they run "X" degrees. They would express the

Not even where "X" is given to, say, two decimal places?

> > number in a fractional form. Once the optimum setting has been found,
> > then indeed, you would use the degrees, because that is the expression
> > used by the optical unit.
> > But if you changed to a smaller/larger tire, you would refigure your
> > angular setting, to achieve the same measured setting..

*Really?* You're saying that if a team changes to a smaller tyre,
they'll actually adjust the toe to a *larger* angle as their first
guess? I'd have thought that you'd leave the angle alone unless
track time suggested that you needed to change it - from what I
know after an Auto Eng degree course, I thought tyres respond to
slip *angle*, not some linear measurement at a point of the tyre
which isn't even in contact with the ground.

Now, if toe were measured at the front and rear of the /contact
patch/ then that might be a whole different story... ;-)

Jonny

[Pt3]

<<<<Does that mean that the "-1.0 to +1.0 mm" front and "0 to 4.0mm" rear
specified in my Haynes manual (Fiat Bravo) is referring to said
standard bar too? Or should it be a 914.4 mm long bar? ;-)>>>>

No, but what that does mean is the variance of the spec. In other words, it
would be considered in spec if it was -1.0mm or +1.0mm. So the spec would
be "0" as far as you would be setting it during an Alignment. If you were
just checking the Alignment and it fell within that range it would be fine,
but if an Alignment was performed, then it should be set to "0" providing
that the person doing it really cared about what he/she was doing. There
are so many Techs out there that would charge you the $50 for the Alignment
and leave it be if it fell within that range.

Patrick



"Jonny Hodgson" <jp_hodgson@eRnEgMiOnVeEer.com> wrote in message
news:LKkI9.290$iz3.61770@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
>
> Pt3 <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ohhI9.3975$6W4.1851@nwrddc04.gnilink.net...
>
> <snip>
> > I'm sorry the science doesn't follow this, but it is the way its done
and
> > has been done for many years. The industry has accepted this standard
for a
> > long time now. I understand that the math does not compute, but toe is
no
> > longer measured from the center line of the tire nor has it been for
years
> > now. When you see the explanation of how toe is measured( in books and
> > other materials ) and they show the center line of the tire in front and
> > back, its for those who need an idea of what is being measured, but
going
> > into how it is actually measured may be too difficult to understand.
> <snip>
>
> Thanks for the info on 1:1 car measurement - I certainly had no idea
> that the standard was to use a 36" bar as opposed to the tread
> centreline itself.
>
> Does that mean that the "-1.0 to +1.0 mm" front and "0 to 4.0mm" rear
> specified in my Haynes manual (Fiat Bravo) is referring to said
> standard bar too? Or should it be a 914.4 mm long bar? ;-)
>
>
> I do feel, though, that this whole thread has exploded way out of
> proportion and has also become very off topic - anyone measuring
> toe on a 1:10th scale car is very unlikely to do so with a 36" long
> reference bar ;-), and in fact will either do so directly in degrees
> using a camber gauge, or will probably measure from the tyre CL
> because that's what's easiest to do with a typical toe gauge...
>
> Also, Dan wrote:
>
> > > In the real world of racing, where the toe is measured in 1/100ths,
> > > the tire diameter IS considered..
> > > Nobody would ever say that they run "X" degrees. They would express
the
>
> Not even where "X" is given to, say, two decimal places?
>
> > > number in a fractional form. Once the optimum setting has been found,
> > > then indeed, you would use the degrees, because that is the expression
> > > used by the optical unit.
> > > But if you changed to a smaller/larger tire, you would refigure your
> > > angular setting, to achieve the same measured setting..
>
> *Really?* You're saying that if a team changes to a smaller tyre,
> they'll actually adjust the toe to a *larger* angle as their first
> guess? I'd have thought that you'd leave the angle alone unless
> track time suggested that you needed to change it - from what I
> know after an Auto Eng degree course, I thought tyres respond to
> slip *angle*, not some linear measurement at a point of the tyre
> which isn't even in contact with the ground.
>
> Now, if toe were measured at the front and rear of the /contact
> patch/ then that might be a whole different story... ;-)
>
> Jonny
>
>
>
>
>

[TempestNightmare]

Ok I did an experiment...I set the toe on My Super Nitro to 1/16th". Then I
replaced the wheels with the smaller ones from my RS4, and quess what?? The
toe was still measured at 1/16th"!
Jon

"Jamie Garofalo" <jamie@xpedite.com> wrote in message
news:76a9728.0212031134.39a360ae@posting.google.co m...
> On my Losi XXX-NT, I'm using the stock rear hub carriers. I was under
> the impresstion (I must have read it somewhere) that the toe in was 3
> degrees. I've had the RPM toe in/out gauge for some time and I've
> always used it on the front because it's adjustable. The other day, I
> decided to check the toe in on the rear and according to the gauge,
> it's like 5-6 degrees. I thought it might have been a bent rim but it
> wasn't......
>
> What's with that?? Who's measuring and what's the scale?
>
> Thanks!

[Pt3]

Hello Jon, glad to see you're playing around with it. How did you measure
the Toe??? Meaning what did you use? I bet if you used a Digital or Dial
Caliper you would come up with a slightly different measurement. While the
point I was trying to get across to Chuck earlier that toe is really
measured in a different way on 1:1 autos, he has a point on the angles. As
the tire size increases, the distance between the two center lines of the
tires will decrease(when talking about toe in that is), it is only logical,
but in the real world, they no longer measure toe in this manner.

Now, on an RC car, the scale of it is going to make such a minute difference
unless you are going really crazy with the tire sizes.

I think what set me off earlier was when Chuck made this statement
before.....
""1/4" of toe on a 20" truck rim/tire, is not the same angle
as 1/4" toe on a 13" Honda rim/tire...""

In reality it is the same since the Industry measures Toe in degrees. I
guess I let it get a little out of hand since I knew from experience that
Tire Size has no bearing on how we do Alignments on 1:1 vehicles. On
alignments, the Angle is being measured not the measurement at the
front/rear of the tires.

Patrick




Patrick
"TempestNightmare" <tempestnightmare@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:tNSdnYmELcofL2-gXTWcog@comcast.com...
> Ok I did an experiment...I set the toe on My Super Nitro to 1/16th". Then
I
> replaced the wheels with the smaller ones from my RS4, and quess what??
The
> toe was still measured at 1/16th"!
> Jon
>
> "Jamie Garofalo" <jamie@xpedite.com> wrote in message
> news:76a9728.0212031134.39a360ae@posting.google.co m...
> > On my Losi XXX-NT, I'm using the stock rear hub carriers. I was under
> > the impresstion (I must have read it somewhere) that the toe in was 3
> > degrees. I've had the RPM toe in/out gauge for some time and I've
> > always used it on the front because it's adjustable. The other day, I
> > decided to check the toe in on the rear and according to the gauge,
> > it's like 5-6 degrees. I thought it might have been a bent rim but it
> > wasn't......
> >
> > What's with that?? Who's measuring and what's the scale?
> >
> > Thanks!
>
>

[TempestNightmare]

I use an alignment gauge that I bought on Tower hobbies. Measures toe,
camber, and caster....
"Pt3" <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:9kzI9.3$_W1.1@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> Hello Jon, glad to see you're playing around with it. How did you measure
> the Toe??? Meaning what did you use? I bet if you used a Digital or Dial
> Caliper you would come up with a slightly different measurement. While
the
> point I was trying to get across to Chuck earlier that toe is really
> measured in a different way on 1:1 autos, he has a point on the angles.
As
> the tire size increases, the distance between the two center lines of the
> tires will decrease(when talking about toe in that is), it is only
logical,
> but in the real world, they no longer measure toe in this manner.
>
> Now, on an RC car, the scale of it is going to make such a minute
difference
> unless you are going really crazy with the tire sizes.
>
> I think what set me off earlier was when Chuck made this statement
> before.....
> ""1/4" of toe on a 20" truck rim/tire, is not the same angle
> as 1/4" toe on a 13" Honda rim/tire...""
>
> In reality it is the same since the Industry measures Toe in degrees. I
> guess I let it get a little out of hand since I knew from experience that
> Tire Size has no bearing on how we do Alignments on 1:1 vehicles. On
> alignments, the Angle is being measured not the measurement at the
> front/rear of the tires.
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
>
> Patrick
> "TempestNightmare" <tempestnightmare@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:tNSdnYmELcofL2-gXTWcog@comcast.com...
> > Ok I did an experiment...I set the toe on My Super Nitro to 1/16th".
Then
> I
> > replaced the wheels with the smaller ones from my RS4, and quess what??
> The
> > toe was still measured at 1/16th"!
> > Jon
> >
> > "Jamie Garofalo" <jamie@xpedite.com> wrote in message
> > news:76a9728.0212031134.39a360ae@posting.google.co m...
> > > On my Losi XXX-NT, I'm using the stock rear hub carriers. I was under
> > > the impresstion (I must have read it somewhere) that the toe in was 3
> > > degrees. I've had the RPM toe in/out gauge for some time and I've
> > > always used it on the front because it's adjustable. The other day, I
> > > decided to check the toe in on the rear and according to the gauge,
> > > it's like 5-6 degrees. I thought it might have been a bent rim but it
> > > wasn't......
> > >
> > > What's with that?? Who's measuring and what's the scale?
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> >
> >
>
>

[Pt3]

Jonny, the bar is really irrelevant. All angles are measured in degrees, so
no matter how long the bar is, the degrees at which the wheel is would be
the same. The reason for the bars is so that they stick out far enough
beyond the tires so that the two front sensors can communicate with one
another. The rear sensors don't even have bars, the have direct line of
sight with the sensor in front of them. Since this would be impossible for
the front sensors, a bar has to stick out in front of the tires so that the
left and right front sensors can see one another and complete the circuit so
to speak. The bars length is so that the sensors on the far front corners
cannot be obstructed by a larger tire size. In fact, Alignment machine
manufactures have had to angle the front bars down and extend them a little
to make accommodations for some vehicles that have low hanging spoilers and
other front end pieces. Hell, the newer machines have no bars, the use
digital cameras pointed at panels that are mounted to the rims of all the
tires.

You have to remember that Auto Manufactures also know how these alignments
are being done and set their specs as to how the alignment machine measures
the angles on the vehicle. Measuring Toe at the center line of the tires is
old school and just isn't done any longer. The aligner can take a toe
reading that was measured in degrees, apply a standard formula, and compute
what that would approximately be in inches or millimeters. If you were
going to try and do it yourself with a piece of string or other measuring
device then it would be made at the tires center line from left to right of
the front of the tire and the rear. But this is all a Moot point
considering that it just isn't done this way any longer.

Patrick

"Jonny Hodgson" <jp_hodgson@eRnEgMiOnVeEer.com> wrote in message
news:JRtJ9.32$hT4.22839@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
>
> Pt3 <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:UBqI9.10658$903.2369@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> > <<<<Does that mean that the "-1.0 to +1.0 mm" front and "0 to 4.0mm"
rear
> > specified in my Haynes manual (Fiat Bravo) is referring to said
> > standard bar too? Or should it be a 914.4 mm long bar? ;-)>>>>
> >
> > No, but what that does mean is the variance of the spec. In other
words, it
> > would be considered in spec if it was -1.0mm or +1.0mm. So the spec
would
>
> Yeah, I get the tolerance thing (I'm a engineering graduate and
> Associated Member of the IMechE) but is that distance still measured
> at the end of some standard length bar, or at the tyre diameter?
> And if it's a standard bar, how long is it?
>
> Since the nominal value for the rear is 2.0 mm, this matters!
>
> Jonny
>
>

[Jonny Hodgson]

Pt3 <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message news:8FvJ9.8322$BB.2172@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
> Jonny, the bar is really irrelevant. All angles are measured in degrees, so
> no matter how long the bar is, the degrees at which the wheel is would be

But they're quoted in millimetres! Camber and caster are quoted in
degrees, but toe isn't...

> If you were
> going to try and do it yourself with a piece of string or other measuring
> device then it would be made at the tires center line from left to right of
> the front of the tire and the rear. But this is all a Moot point
> considering that it just isn't done this way any longer.

I know, but I'm curious now that you've explained that toe quoted
in fractions of an inch refers to a 36" 'wheel diameter' - I want
to know whether the same principle applies to the metric values in
my Haynes manual, and if so what the 'conversion factor' is.

I'm an engineer; engineering involves numbers; and unless I know
what the numbers refer to, they're meaningless :-/

Jonny

[Pt3]

Jonny, wheel diameter is not a factor. The bars' length is there to
overcome obstacles in the way of the sensors communicating with one another.
Today's Alignment machines measure all angles ( Camber, Caster & Toe ) in
degrees. Now, that being said, Auto Manufactures still put the Toe Spec out
in Inches or Millimeters as yours is, but it doesn't change the fact that
the Alignment Industry measures Toe in degrees and then applies their
formula of what that measurement is in Inches/mm. Now, what you have asked
me is what the formula is and I cannot tell you, nor will Hunter tell me. I
did ask. I don't know what the standard formula is to convert "X" amount of
inches/mm to "X" amount of degrees. I do however, know that Auto
Manufactures have apparently agreed on this as they themselves use the same
Alignment equipment that I've used in the past as well as what is being used
at this point and time.

<<<<<I know, but I'm curious now that you've explained that toe quoted
in fractions of an inch refers to a 36" 'wheel diameter' - I want
to know whether the same principle applies to the metric values in
my Haynes manual, and if so what the 'conversion factor' is.>>>>>>

I never said that the Toe Quoted in fractions refers to a 36" wheel
diameter. What I did say, when asked about it" that a bar is used on the
front sensors, but this bar is only there so that the two front sensors have
line of sight with one another without obstruction. If you put you hand and
obstruct their line of sight, the Toe reading on the machine will disappear.
At the ends of the front bars there are sensors measuring the angles on the
sensors to one another. As for a conversion factor, I couldn't tell you. As
pointed out earlier in this conversation, I just do the Alignment with the
specs and equipment given to me. I do however know how the machine works and
understand what is going on when I'm doing an Alignment, but I cannot give
you absolute formulas or how the computations are done. I've always relied
on having the very best technology to do my work and left the specifics up
to the designers of the technology. I will however tell you that I
personally know more then most about how the machine works. Most techs
could care less as you can see when you walk into a place that does
alignments and see that they set these sensors on the floor for the next car
so that they don't have to walk over to the machine and walk back with the
sensors to each wheel. This is nothing more then laziness and one of the
easiest ways to knock the machine out of calibration.

Patrick

"Jonny Hodgson" <jp_hodgson@eRnEgMiOnVeEer.com> wrote in message
news:zzPJ9.130$4m.28285@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
>
> Pt3 <rfeded@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:8FvJ9.8322$BB.2172@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
> > Jonny, the bar is really irrelevant. All angles are measured in
degrees, so
> > no matter how long the bar is, the degrees at which the wheel is would
be
>
> But they're quoted in millimetres! Camber and caster are quoted in
> degrees, but toe isn't...
>
> > If you were
> > going to try and do it yourself with a piece of string or other
measuring
> > device then it would be made at the tires center line from left to right
of
> > the front of the tire and the rear. But this is all a Moot point
> > considering that it just isn't done this way any longer.
>
> I know, but I'm curious now that you've explained that toe quoted
> in fractions of an inch refers to a 36" 'wheel diameter' - I want
> to know whether the same principle applies to the metric values in
> my Haynes manual, and if so what the 'conversion factor' is.
>
> I'm an engineer; engineering involves numbers; and unless I know
> what the numbers refer to, they're meaningless :-/
>
> Jonny
>
>