Which woody to build?

[rcflyer1984]

I'm looking to build a woody over the rest of the winter. Does anyone have any suggestions? Not really looking for any 2m planes, I have enough already. I was thinking about some of the Skybench planes. Maybe a Viking MKI or II or something along those lines. Which model Viking would perform better? I'd also like something that can be flown in Nostalgia.

Thanks in advance,
Tim

[cosmicpossum]

Looking at Skybench's stuff, I've been drawn to the Cloud Bound....it's on my wish list for spring.

[Vulture]

I like the Bird series, take your pick. But I must say I'll be building a Genie Easy LT/S first. But there the wing is balsa sheeted foam. Mostly wood. :D

Vulture

[chlee]

Tim, I have been considering (for some years) a Mirage from www.isthmusmodels.com . It is a short kit, and if you buy plans and wood, the total price ends up at around $120.

- Chung

[Buran]

You can’t go wrong with Skybench. Their quality is superb and Ray is a real nice guy and pleasant to talk with.

For some reason I’ve always been partial to Craft-Air, Tom Williams designs. Regarding the Viking, the Mk 1 has a thicker airfoil than the Mk 2. The Mk 1 generates more lift but doesn’t penetrate as well. Do as I did, build both wings.

[atjurhs]

Skybench Oly III

[Ed Franz]

I guess you will want the Oly 11 or the Skybench Big Bird
kit that is in my basement. :-)

Ed

[cosmicpossum]

Tim, I have been considering (for some years) a Mirage from www.isthmusmodels.com . It is a short kit, and if you buy plans and wood, the total price ends up at around $120.

- Chung

I picked up a mirage full kit off EBay a couple weeks ago for $100 plus shipping. It looks to be a terrific kit...lots of pieces-parts! Next on my list of to be builts right now.

[erich]

Hope you don't mine me showing off, my Mirage, it's a looker and a great flyer to boot. From an Isthmus short kit.

erich

[schrederman]

If you want it to be Nostalgia legal, it would need to be the Oly II, one of the Legionairs, or perhaps the Challenger. The Oly IIs, Oly III, or Bird series aren't Nos legal. I'm not sure about the Mirage. I know they're good flying models. Someone posted that the Sagitta 900 would be available, soon, but I don't believe it's Nos legal, either.

Jack Womack

[Vulture]

I guess you will want the Oly 11 or the Skybench Big Bird
kit that is in my basement. :-)

EdHe doesn't want those Ed, I do. ;) How much you asking? Not that I need any more planes or projects. It's just that I'm addicted you see. :p I can't help myself...

Vulture

[Vulture]

Hope you don't mine me showing off, my Mirage, it's a looker and a great flyer to boot. From an Isthmus short kit.

erichDon't know about anyone else, but I don't mind you showing off. As a matter of fact, thank you for showing off. Nicely done Erich.

Vulture

[jpherit]

Hope you don't mine me showing off, my Mirage, it's a looker and a great flyer to boot. From an Isthmus short kit.

erich


I see you have scalloped the TE! Very nice looking. I am in the midst of building from the short kit and need to make a decision about the "optional" scallops. How did you do them, especially considering each one is slightly different? What a lot of work! My congratulations to you on a beautiful job!


JPHerit

[KevinSharbonda]

Scallops or Gussetts? LOL...Kev.

[erich]

JPHerit

Here's a link to the making of the scalloped edges. The whole build of this plane was documented on this forum (check out frame #9, for the scallop story).

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=455488&highlight=Mirage+build
erich

[Mark Miller]

The Mirage is Nostalgia legal.

Mark Miller
Isthmus Models

[jpherit]

JPHerit

Here's a link to the making of the scalloped edges. The whole build of this plane was documented on this forum (check out frame #9, for the scallop story).

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=455488&highlight=Mirage+build
erich


Erich,

Thanks for the pointer to your build thread. I have been following the shorter thread by Michael McKibbon.

I am tempted to try the scalloping. I have the center panel well along the way; to the point I need to make a decision about the TE.

Jon H

[scaflock]

I'm surprised that no one suggested a Paragon. Ye old king of the woody floaters. Great plane in my book. You can still find kits here from time to time or on E-bay as well.

Jeff

[cosmicpossum]

Paragon's an oldie but goodie....problem is, as you noted, finding one in a timely manner. Sure "wood" be nice if someone started kitting that one again with laser-cut parts...I'd be in line for it.

[arukum17]

Get a Paragon!! Put a note under the "Wanted" forum. I am sure you will find a NIB kit from a forum member at a fair price. I am based in London but sourced by beloved Paragon from a forum member...

...a really really lovable and BIG plane. Nostalgia legal. Wing easily manageable as breaks down into three. Dead easy to build. Lots of space in the fuse for payload or to electrify. Lots of support from other owners. Real pedigree and history.

..the utilitarian, square cut look is IMO beautiful.

[cosmicpossum]

dude, never say "break" when you're talking about wings!!!

[Polkastudio]

Well I must say I have to recommend the Mirage. I had one as my 2nd plane back in the early 80's and always wished I had kept it. I have ordered and built 2 of Marks short kits and they may not be for beginners but they are not hard to build. I scalloped one and built the second ligther using contest balsa. Its much easier to use the contest balsa, both fly great by the way. I had an incodent with my first one where I got a little too high for comfort and made a dive I shouldn't have made which fluttered and destroyed the wing tips. I was able to land it though and just made new tips, still fly's great. I added carbon to the main panel spars which made it much stronger, I highly recommend the use of carbon on the main panels, keep the tips light and you'll be shocked how a plane this size can handle. I go out on the golf course with it and hand toss quite a bit. Have caught many low level thermals and specked it out. There are many build threads on this plane for a reason, its a great plane for all around fun flying!

Polkaboy

[TheNightowl]

You can get a custom-cut kit for either the Paragon or the Mirage for just under $175 ($150 for the kit and $22.50 for the plans) from Kit Cutters.

http://www.kitcutters.com/RCM/RCMSail/RCMParagon.htm

Nightowl

[Polkastudio]

Hi, you can get a Mirage short kit from Isthmus www.isthmusmodels.com, whiich is Mark Miller for $ 65.00. It includeds all the important stuff. I built mine for under $ 200.00 covered and I used a bunch of carbon fiber you don't have to use. Spars and pushrods are carbon on mine.

Polkaboy

[rcflyer1984]

Thanks for all the great suggestions so far. I'm almost finished building my Olympic II(Airtronics). I think I'm going to go with the Viking. Are both versions NOS legal? I'm not quite up to par on the NOS rules yet.

Thanks,
Tim

[Brian Agnew]

I'm looking to build a woody over the rest of the winter. Does anyone have any suggestions? Not really looking for any 2m planes, I have enough already. I was thinking about some of the Skybench planes. Maybe a Viking MKI or II or something along those lines. Which model Viking would perform better? I'd also like something that can be flown in Nostalgia.

Thanks in advance,
Tim


Tim:

You can't miss with Skybench's kits. Especially Ray's "Bird Series". Ray also has numerous nostalgia designs/kits. If you choose the Viking I would recommend the Mark II version. I loved mine for what little time I had it when I was a kid (battery failed).

I'm currently building the War Eagle kit. Great kit, great design. It is strictly RES though, not nostalgia.

Sincerely,

Brian Agnew

[Brian Agnew]

The Mirage is a great choice. My dad must have built 6 of them. It is light, light, light. If my memory is correct I believe Mike Reagan designed it for the very first HLG contest which did not have wingspan restrictions.

Thanks to people like Ray and Mark you have an excellent menu of choices but the difficult decision to narrow it down to one.

If I could I would pick your top 2 or 3 and get them all. Life's too short.

Brian

[John Gallagher]

Paragon's an oldie but goodie....problem is, as you noted, finding one in a timely manner. Sure "wood" be nice if someone started kitting that one again with laser-cut parts...I'd be in line for it.

http://www.mz-modellbau.de/Paragonc.htm
I don't speak german but they used to advertise in Quiet Flyer and apparently the Paragon and Paragon XL are still available. Their ad used to state that they were looking for dealers. Guess noone thought it was a good deal.

[rcflyer1984]

I wonder if they ship over here? It appears they have a classic version and an XL version offered ARC. http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&langpair=de%7Cen&u=http://www.mz-modellbau.de/Paragon.htm

[Mark Miller]

The Mirage was designed by Blaine Rawdon and it won, but was not designed specifically for the first Dave Thornburg HLG contest. Check out this link..

http://www.isthmusmodels.com/sunbird/picture.html

Also...

http://www.isthmusmodels.com/sunbird/blaine.html

Another piece of cool history revolving around the Mirage is that shortly after designing the Mirage Blaine went to work for Paul McCready and worked on the Gossamer Condor and Albatross. Also after the Kremer prize was a group from MIT which had Mark Drela involved. Fast forward to just a few years ago and Mark built a Mirage. He liked the way it flew so much he decided to build one with similar flight criteria and modern construction technology. The result is the Bubble Dancer.

Blaine went on with McCready to a design position on the Solar Challenger. From there it was on to McDonnell-Douglas as a structures designer and then as an aircraft configuration designer. Blaine is now a Boeing Technical Fellow in the field of aircraft configuration design. His key accomplishments include configuration design work on the Blended Wing Body and the Pelican Ultra Large Transport Aircraft.

See where you can go when you have a model aircraft background?

Mark Miller

[Phoebusflyer]

Shades of Jimmy Stewart and the "Flight of the Phoenix"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Thermaler]

The Viking MkI has flat bottom airfoil, the MkII is a semi-symetrical airfoil. When the MkI has been repaired a few times it will penetrate just as well. You can also add ballast tubes in the wings to either for some fun in windy weather. I won my second contest with a glass fuse version of the MkI carrying 3 lbs of lead at a GDSH contest.
They are all siblings of the Leo which is an all wood version that the Sailaire came from. Judging from the weight of the kit it would be a "sail-cow". The keel block looks like a piece of 2x4!!!! There are two other hardwood blocks to go with it, other than that it is the same basic construction as the wood fuse version of the Viking.
I believe the Golden Eagle is a 100" version of the MkII. Want to buy one of the four kits I have? Glass fuse lots of wood in the wings and tailfeathers, $150 shipped CONUSA.
The glass Golden Eagle fuse is a 1/4" shorter than the glass Viking fuse if anybody wants to know.

Joe
You can’t go wrong with Skybench. Their quality is superb and Ray is a real nice guy and pleasant to talk with.

For some reason I’ve always been partial to Craft-Air, Tom Williams designs. Regarding the Viking, the Mk 1 has a thicker airfoil than the Mk 2. The Mk 1 generates more lift but doesn’t penetrate as well. Do as I did, build both wings.

Me Too!!!

[Wrench]

So many kits so little work bench space. I'd go for the viking 2.

[Brian Agnew]

The Mirage was designed by Blaine Rawdon and it won, but was not designed specifically for the first Dave Thornburg HLG contest. Check out this link..

http://www.isthmusmodels.com/sunbird/picture.html

Also...

http://www.isthmusmodels.com/sunbird/blaine.html

Another piece of cool history revolving around the Mirage is that shortly after designing the Mirage Blaine went to work for Paul McCready and worked on the Gossamer Condor and Albatross. Also after the Kremer prize was a group from MIT which had Mark Drela involved. Fast forward to just a few years ago and Mark built a Mirage. He liked the way it flew so much he decided to build one with similar flight criteria and modern construction technology. The result is the Bubble Dancer.

Blaine went on with McCready to a design position on the Solar Challenger. From there it was on to McDonnell-Douglas as a structures designer and then as an aircraft configuration designer. Blaine is now a Boeing Technical Fellow in the field of aircraft configuration design. His key accomplishments include configuration design work on the Blended Wing Body and the Pelican Ultra Large Transport Aircraft.

See where you can go when you have a model aircraft background?

Mark Miller

Hey Mark,

Thanks for clarifying all of that, the Mirage certainly has a unique history. Why am I remembering Mike Reagan? I remember there didn't seem to be one sentence about either which didn't include the other (make sense?).

The Mirage was a unique design in every way. The off-set rudder, using only one elevator half, and the semi-symmetrical airfoil (E374?) and light, light, light.

It's weakness was the spar. My dad busted them no matter what reinforcements he used but he loved the thing so much he wouldn't give up. I don't know if that is still an issue or if it has been "resolved". I emphasize resolved because I don't like to see changes that stray from the integrity/purpose of the design. I'd buy one just for hand-launch but can't get my current projects off of the bench.

Great design, great history, and a worthwhile kit.

Sincerely,

Brian Agnew

[jpherit]

JPHerit

Here's a link to the making of the scalloped edges. The whole build of this plane was documented on this forum (check out frame #9, for the scallop story).

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=455488&highlight=Mirage+build
erich

Erich,

The scalloping is going well on my wing panels. Not as difficult as I had thought.

One important question. My plans specify 3/8 inch washout, but they don't say how to measure that 3/8 inch. For example, one could interpret this specification to mean the tip is to be 3/8 inch above the plane of the TE near the root. But that plane is about 3/16 above the building board because of the semisymmetrical airfoil. This produces a washout angle of about -3.5 degrees which looks severe to the eye.

Alternatvely, one could interpret this instruction as requiring the tip to be 3/8 inch above the building board. Since the plane the TE is in is about 3/16 above the building board, this would result in about 3/16 of washout with an angle of about - 1.7 degrees.

My question: which interpretation is correct? I don't think you addressed this issue in your build description and your pictures look to me as if you did not build the larger washout angle but I can not be sure.

I hope you or someone can clarify this abiguity in the plans. Thanks

Jon H

[Brian Agnew]

Forgot to add....

I have been very fortunate to have grown up in the sport with some great modelers with interesting histories.

Leon Kincaid (Free Spirit/Scooter) and Lloyd Mathai both worked for NACA in the 40's before it became NASA. The literally built models for a living and built them the old fashioned way. I borrowed one of Leon's Free Spirit's to fly it in Nostalgia at the Nats. He wouldn't let me give it back. The craftmanship is remarkable and comparable to today's CNC molded ships. I wouldn't part with it for any price. Unfortunately we lost Lloyd about a month ago. Leon and Lloyd are gentleman in every sense of the word. They never lost their enthusiasm for the sport and never spoke a harsh word. Gentle souls both.

Another distinguished modeler that was active in soaring while I was growing up was Dr. Walt Good. He played a crucial role in developing the technology we now take for granted. Again, a remarkable gentleman with a pure soul and great enthusiasm for r/c soaring. Never spoke a harsh word.

I have a lot of stories about Leon, Lloyd and Dr. Good. Nothing but fond memories of each. I wish I had had a deeper appreciation for them while growing up. I just didn't know enough and they were so modest I would only learn of their unique histories later on. They epitomized the spirit of soaring and I can only wish I had half their class.

These remarkably talented men could have gone in any direction in the hobby. They all chose soaring. At first glance this is a curious coincidence. Contemplating it further I think that there was a purity in soaring that they sought in their own lives. I have no doubt they were successful in every way.

Sincerely,

Brian Agnew

[schrederman]

I grew up flying free-flight gliders. A couple of people came by with their kids and took me to contests, and practice flying. Not having a dad while growing up made things difficult until these guys came along. I met Cecil Haga of Legionair fame when I was in my mid-20s. He liked my building skills so I built a lot of Legionairs for him... amd me... and others. People like that can really have a great nfluence, even without trying. I am indeed fortunate to have known them. I have a Legionair 132 to build... I should be out building it.

Jack Womack

[kwmtrubrit]

Hey Jon,

When it comes to building, there are some "big guns" on this thread as you know, so take my suggestion and chew on it for a while, then see what the pro's say. My first plane was a Gentle Lady and the instructions for setting the washout was to twist the tip and shrink the covering (basically). For me, that was a bit hit and miss, so here's what I did. I built the washout into the tip. I placed a piece of wood (the size of the required washout) under the TE at the tip. I made sure the LE and the inboard part of the TE were flat on the board and commenced glueing. It worked, it flies fine.

Keith

[regis]

replaced

[regis]

I love to hear (read) the stories about the significant models and their designers. The Scooter 3M ranks at the top of my favorites list, but I know nothing it’s development or the designer (Leon Kincaid ?). In the ‘60s the pioneer glider enthusiasts were already accomplished modelers - R/C, C/L and/or FF. My own introduction was smoothed by early LSF pioneers and charter members of the North Bay Soaring Society (NBSS) Bob Adams, Bob Wakerly and Sam Crawford. Like many others, they were accomplished modelers before taking up soaring. Regis :o

[Ercoupe Ed]

Forgot to add....

I have been very fortunate to have grown up in the sport with some great modelers with interesting histories.

Leon Kincaid (Free Spirit/Scooter) and Lloyd Mathai both worked for NACA in the 40's before it became NASA. The literally built models for a living and built them the old fashioned way. I borrowed one of Leon's Free Spirit's to fly it in Nostalgia at the Nats. He wouldn't let me give it back. The craftmanship is remarkable and comparable to today's CNC molded ships. I wouldn't part with it for any price. Unfortunately we lost Lloyd about a month ago. Leon and Lloyd are gentleman in every sense of the word. They never lost their enthusiasm for the sport and never spoke a harsh word. Gentle souls both.

Another distinguished modeler that was active in soaring while I was growing up was Dr. Walt Good. He played a crucial role in developing the technology we now take for granted. Again, a remarkable gentleman with a pure soul and great enthusiasm for r/c soaring. Never spoke a harsh word.

I have a lot of stories about Leon, Lloyd and Dr. Good. Nothing but fond memories of each. I wish I had had a deeper appreciation for them while growing up. I just didn't know enough and they were so modest I would only learn of their unique histories later on. They epitomized the spirit of soaring and I can only wish I had half their class.

These remarkably talented men could have gone in any direction in the hobby. They all chose soaring. At first glance this is a curious coincidence. Contemplating it further I think that there was a purity in soaring that they sought in their own lives. I have no doubt they were successful in every way.

Sincerely,

Brian Agnew

Brian and whoever else might be interested. Go over to the Vintage and Oldtimer Designs thread column, and scroll down until you see "1943 Movie"
A very nostalgic look at the modelling of the past, filmed at the 1943 National Model Airplane Championships.
Anyway the Good brothers are in it with one of their first RC airplanes and it's associated Tx.
Also, see if you can recognize the guy who introduces the film and narrates it
It's Robert Shayne, who later became "Inspector Henderson" on the 1950's TV series "Superman" starring George Reeves.
It's fun to watch this short film on model avaition.
Enjoy!

[Elmog]

xyz

[jpherit]

Hey Jon,

When it comes to building, there are some "big guns" on this thread as you know, so take my suggestion and chew on it for a while, then see what the pro's say. My first plane was a Gentle Lady and the instructions for setting the washout was to twist the tip and shrink the covering (basically). For me, that was a bit hit and miss, so here's what I did. I built the washout into the tip. I placed a piece of wood (the size of the required washout) under the TE at the tip. I made sure the LE and the inboard part of the TE were flat on the board and commenced glueing. It worked, it flies fine.

Keith


Kieth,

I agree with you. I fully intend to build in the washout using the building board as a plane of reference. Consequently, it is important to get it right the first time.
I am ready to finish off a wing tip so I hope I can get some input on this issue fairly soon.

Jon H

[kwmtrubrit]

Jon,

The way I understand the washout measurement is as follows: With the tip section only flat on the building board, the trailing edge tip should be raised X amount (3/8 inch for example) above the board. This is what I did with the GL and like I said, all is well.

Keith

[Texas Buzzard]

I'm looking to build a woody over the rest of the winter. Does anyone have any suggestions? Not really looking for any 2m planes, I have enough already. I was thinking about some of the Skybench planes. Maybe a Viking MKI or II or something along those lines. Which model Viking would perform better? I'd also like something that can be flown in Nostalgia.

Thanks in advance,
Tim
.................................................. ......

Look at the "old stand by" the Oly II. Can't beat it.
But in 2-m the Carl Goldberg "GENTLE LADY" will do all you ask of it.

[regis]

Not really looking for any 2m planes, I have enough already. :confused: